PROPOSAL: The list needs to fork (desperately)


#1

I’d like to propsoe that the RubyOnRails mailing list forks into three
lists.

PROBLEM:

  • The list is getting swamped with traffic, making it hard to use and
    even harder to follow.
  • Many, many messages get lost, with no reply.
  • Due to the overwhelming traffic, it’s hard for beginners to get the
    help that they need, since their messages get lost in the shuffle, and
    it’s hard for advanced users to work together, for the same reason.

PROPOSED SOLUTION:
Fork the list into three new lists:

  • Rails-Beginners. For questions and answers on how to use Rails. No
    “read the docs, fool!” here.
  • Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss
    particular topics. Example topics include application design advice,
    optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
  • Rails-Hackers. For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails.
    Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like.

Comments?


#2

+1

Although a general announcements list might be a good idea, too.

lstrecv wrote:

PROPOSED SOLUTION:
Fork the list into three new lists:

  • Rails-Beginners. For questions and answers on how to use Rails. No
    “read the docs, fool!” here.
  • Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss
    particular topics. Example topics include application design advice,
    optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
  • Rails-Hackers. For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails.
    Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like.

Comments?


#3

I hardly think that this list is getting “swamped”

This has been brought up in the past, and it didn’t seem like there
was much support. How do you decide if you should post to the
beginners or users list? Is there some kind of qualifying exam? (no,
that’s not serious)

Maybe I don’t have a problem following the threads because I have
gmail reloading in the background every couple minutes and check out
anything new…but this isn’t exactly a high-volume list imo. I think
nearly everyone who reads the list now would just subscribe to all
three anyway…which obviously isn’t a problem, just seems unnecessary
at this point.

Pat


#4

Rails-core, was opened up a bit to be that rails hacker list. So now
you could be down to Rails (normal) and Rails-help. But who would
read Rails-help? I think that that list would get posted to without
many replies.

Kyle


#5

kyle wrote:

But who would read Rails-help?

Exactly the people who (shock!) are interested in helping beginners.

Surprise, surprise, there are people interested in doing this. And the
people who aren’t, well, they still won’t even if the messages are at
the same list, other than posting a “check the docs first” response.

If you look at the newbie questions on the list, most of them go
unanswered. The ones that are marked “NOOB” in the subject seem to fair
better.


#6

I probably wouldn’t read a Rails-Help list. It would get filtered to
its own folder, likely never to be read. As it exists now, I help
with a few questions a day, just cause the subject line catches me.
You split the list, and you lose me for that. I assume I’m not
unique.

Thats really all I’m saying.


#7

List R.
> Comments?

I agree fully; the current situation is a mess, a chaos:
â??everything in one jar"

, but we need to think further on the categorization.

  • rails-university
  • rails-general
  • rails-advanced
  • rails-edge
  • rails-plugins
  • rails-tools
  • rails-install

Other candidates:

  • rails-advanced
  • rails-deploy
  • rails-tuning
  • rails-MacOS (Linux, …)
  • rails-ide

Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a little
order.
RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.

Alain R.


#8

On 12/11/05, Alain R. removed_email_address@domain.invalid wrote:

  • rails-general
  • rails-tuning
  • rails-MacOS (Linux, …)
  • rails-ide

Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a little order.
RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.

I can’t tell if this post is serious or cynical. You want the list
divided into at least seven categories? Possibly upwards of 12? This
seems absolutely insane to me.


#9

Word. You’re not unique. Uhm, I mean I agree totally.

Kyle M. wrote:

I probably wouldn’t read a Rails-Help list. It would get filtered to
its own folder, likely never to be read. As it exists now, I help
with a few questions a day, just cause the subject line catches me.
You split the list, and you lose me for that. I assume I’m not
unique.
[snip]


#10

Pat
> I can’t tell if this post is serious or cynical. You want the
list
> divided into at least seven categories? Possibly upwards of 12?

4 groups are enough for me (see below)

1/ Reread my message: I wrote "we need to think further on the
categorization.
I posted a few ideas, to start the discussion.

2/ I don’t think in “lists”, in think in “newsgroups”, that are easy to
read and navigate in Thunderbird (f.ex)

3/ 4 newsgroups would be enough for me:

  • rails-academy – for beginners
  • rails-general
  • rails-advanced
  • rails-install/config

I guess

  • rails-optimization
    would be useful to some, but it’s not a must for me.

As a service to 3rd party plugin developers, there should also be

  • rails-plugins

This seems absolutely insane to me.
12 newsgroups would be unsane, I agree.
FYI, Jetbrains hosts 14 lists for their product IDEA (during the EAP
phase): openAPI, plugins, CVS, documentation, etc…

Alain R.


#11

On Dec 11, 2005, at 2:01 AM, Alain R. wrote:

  • rails-general
  • rails-tuning
  • rails-MacOS (Linux, …)
  • rails-ide

Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a
little order.
RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.

Alain R.

I don't think so.. This has come up a few times before and the

general consensus has been to keep the list intact as one. I have
been on this list for a year or more and I have learned a ton of what
I know about rails by reading posts that were over my head. I have
also helped out a ton of noobies that would not have gotten my help
if I had to go read a different list to help them. Since all the
rails messages are on one list, questions have a better chance of
being seen by people who can answer.

There is a decent ruby/rails forum for relative noobies at : http://

www.sitepoint.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=227 if you are more
comfortable there. My vote is for keeping the list as one whole.

Cheers-

-Ezra Z.
WebMaster
Yakima Herald-Republic Newspaper
removed_email_address@domain.invalid
509-577-7732


#12

Hi all,

This newbie absolutely agrees on keeping this list as whole! As a lot of
other
people stated already, and also for me, the power is in reading threads
of
the RoR big dudes. I would say to everybody keep (it) up.

Oh … We maybe could start a seperate list on whether or not this list
should
be split up … :slight_smile:

Friendly greetings from Rotterdam - the Netherlands.

Gerard.

On Sunday 11 December 2005 22:19, Ezra Z. tried to type
something
like:

  • rails-advanced
    Alain R.
    There is a decent ruby/rails forum for relative noobies at : http://

Rails mailing list
removed_email_address@domain.invalid
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails


$biz = http://www.gp-net.nl ;
$fun = http://www.mrmental.com ;
~
~
:wq!


“Who cares if it doesn’t do anything? It was made with our new
Triple-Iso-Bifurcated-Krypton-Gate-MOS process …”

My $Grtz =~ Gerard;
~
:wq!


#13

-1

This has been discussed before. Bad idea.


#14

heh well put!
I’ve never felt as welcomed as a noob as in this list

2005/12/11, Gerard removed_email_address@domain.invalid:


#15

-1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don’t like
categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg
belongs
to


#16

Nicolas B. wrote:

-1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don’t like
categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg

-1: keep it as is. Ruby-forum.com has solved all my problems !


#17

-1

Maybe more liberal use of [NEWBIE] [ANN] and [OT], but I like seeing
most of the communities activity in one place. If you think this needs
to fork, spend 15 minutes subscribed to the Linux kernel list :-p

-Matthew B.
removed_email_address@domain.invalid :: 607 227 0871


#18

List R. wrote:

  • Rails-Beginners…Rails-Users…Rails-Hackers.

+0.

Agree with a fork, disagree with the categories you choose.

I’d favor

  • Rails-beta
    Discuss any pre-released stuff. I care almost nothing
    about bugs in RCs, YARV, or other future visions; since
    I’m not using those versions and not qualified to contribute
    to helping those threads either.

  • Rails-database
    A place for all the “why doesn’t YourSQL follow a standard”
    or “how do I do a like clause” or “how do I do a join”
    or “habtm” queries and “which mysql version do you like”
    messages. Many of these seem to be discussions
    not about Rails but about database programming in general,
    and are often are database-vendor-specific conversations.

  • Rails-administration
    A place for all the “fastcgi vs lighthttp vs webrick
    vs Apache vs IIS vs scgi” stuff that’s often set up
    only occasionally. I care durring the brief moments
    durring the year where we talk out our network infrastructure.

And perhaps
* Rails-advocacy
All the “Java vs Hibernate” and “does anyone
at MegaCorp use rails” and “the timbucktoo users group
is meeting at 1:45pm”. These were interesting before
we decided to use Rails; but are much less interesting now.

And a
* Rails-general
Group that would contain all the conversations
about Rails itself (except the experimental
pre-release stuff that would be in the beta group)

Yes, with a decent killfile (hundreds of lines
filtering MySQL, Apache, DB2, Windows, MacOS, HABTM, etc)
the list is pretty easy to read; but more targeted
groups would make things even easier.


#19

Sean S. wrote:

> I think apps like ruby-forum.com need checks and balances in place 

to

What ruby-forum needs is - public - tags, and some appointed volunteers
to tag messages/threads appropriately:

 "install", "Linux", "performance", "hosting", "mysql", "MacOS",

“plugin”, etc…

Being able to filter by those tags first, before searching the whole
message pile would make the whole digging faster and more efficient.

Alain


#20

removed_email_address@domain.invalid wrote:

Nicolas B. wrote:

-1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don’t like
categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg

-1: keep it as is. Ruby-forum.com has solved all my problems
ruby-forum.com may have solved your problems, but I think the interface
between ruby-forum.com and this mailing list needs some work.

For example: If someone posts a reply in ruby-forum.com without quoting
the previous post, then it results in a post to the mailing list that
has no meaning to “pure” mailing list users.

I think apps like ruby-forum.com need checks and balances in place to
prevent “bad/missing content” from being sent back to the mailing list.

$0.02

-Sean