MIDASWAD - Matz is Dumb and so We are Dumb

(public draft)

I’ve notice several people mentioning something like “Matz is nice and
so we are nice” (MINASWAN).

MINASWAN - Sounds like Japanese.

Japanese, like Mr. Yukihiro M. (Matz), the ruby language
designer is.

And so I started wondering about this here:

MIDASWAD - Matz is Dumb and so We are Dumb

If “Matz” would act like a Moron (in context of language-design),
would this mean that the “We’s” would act like moron’s, too?

An example:

If Mr. Matsumoto applies “Design by Egoism”, then he is “Dumb” (in
context of language-design, not as an individual of course).

The reasoning is simple:

you cannot design a consistent OO language if you apply “Design by
Egoism”. If you ignore logic and reason, just because it happens that
you have some warm feelings for a construct (or person), and cold
feelings for another one, then you apply “Design by Egoism”. And this
will slowly degrade the language.

If the so called “We’s” (whatever this is) would follow this paradigm,
then they would be “dumb”, too - (again, in context of language-
design, not as individuals of course).

Does Mr. Matsumoto apply “Design by Egoism”? - I am not sure yet,
although some issues indicate this. [1]

It’s his language, one will say, he has the right to do so. Well, it’s
possibly his language, but there is something more:

Honour!

It’s a matter of honour to respect the people which depend on the
language. If the main design goals are directed by Egoism, then soon
or later, the language system will collapse. It will not be able to
withstand the requirements of modern applications, and will slowly
fade away.

It’s a matter of honour, to use the “Reality of Logic” for design
decisions, if people depend on you. This can be one small individual,
which feeds his family based on the work with the language. This can
be a large language-subsystem, like a web-framework implemented on top
of the language.

Rails.

Ruby on Rails has brought many people to ruby. It pop’s around in my
mind as “The Windows 3.1x of Web-Development-Frameworks”. I don’t know
exactly why.

Now, it seems that the “Ruby on Rails” framework has raised the
requirements to the language system ruby. It seems that it tries to
achieve more than ruby can provide. The possible reasons are:

  • Rails is so powerful
  • Rails is badly designed
  • The designer has simply chosen the wrong language to place “on
    Rails”.

What is clear is, that this framework requires much from ruby - and
the Main Ruby Implementation (MRI, Matsumutos Ruby Implementation)
starts buckling.

Several new interpreters “pop out of nowhere”. There’s a “professional
edition” of ruby, other companies implement specialized versions with
new garbage-collectors, and who knows how many “hidden” ones. Others
make the “scalability dictated” move to the beloved Java Language. And
others take the “in between solution”:

Ruby On Java On Rails.

What a contradiction! Shouting on Java, and then using Java as the
foundation to execute the “better” language, JRuby, and the “better”
web-framework. Anyway.

Diversity.

People say “Ruby encourages diversity”. This is of course nonsense.
The people around ruby always manage to serve a weakness as something
positive, as something special. And this happens sometimes with
professionalism (possible due to the advertisement/design companies/
people which came in touch with ruby).

But I say “Ruby encourages diversity” means in reality “they fail to
coordinate efforts into one project”. I say that ruby has started to
degrade long time ago, and will continue to degrade, that’s why
companies build custom versions of the interpreter.

It’s most possibly a matter of “Design by Egoism” - either that of Mr.
Matsumoto’s, or that of the “New Implementation of the Ruby Language”
side (or perhaps both). They may should take a look at:

Oracle & IBM & Others - large scale companies, which manage to
cooperate (because they realize they have to join efforts). Not that
the eclipse-project is a masterpiece of liberality, but at least there
are processes.

The companies surrounding ruby fail to do so. They do not cooperate
efficiently, the do not focus efforts into main-line-ruby, they do not
organize and strengthen the development processes, they to not
criticize and judge in the way they should, to encourage evolution.

In the Ruby and the Rails domain, you see “big” names in the sponsor
list of conferences and events. But you don’t see those companies
collaborate efficiently where it is most important: on the language
level.

It seems like egoism is valued more the collaborative achievement and
technical excellence. And of course Politics.

Politics everywhere, throughout the language system, an even the
“Rebels” (see e.g. “Rails is a Ghetto”) are finally nothing else the
egocentric politicians, which just shouted out stuff when they left -
instead of staying, shouting and fighting when they were part of the
language-system.

This is what ruby is about:

Egoism and Politics.

And then this “Community Myth”.

I know that the people which write here publicly are not the so
called “community”.

The population of the language-system “Ruby” consists first of all
from the thousands of users which do not write here.

They use the language, e.g. to write glue-code for their applications,
to control a small part of a film-production, a pre-processor, a quick-
prototype or something that I can’t even imagine.

They are far to busy to get distracted by writing on public media and
dealing with the…

Freak-Show!

The “freak-show” (a few regulars on a list, which give the impressions
that they are the community). A few regulars, which have no sense
for their own limits. And a few spineless followers which have not
personal opinion at all.

A few regulars and some followers, personalities which are weak down
to the bones, which gain strength only in an herd - like hyenas, which
do not respect the rights of an individual, the freedom of
expression, the freedom of choice (e.g. to not read, to filter) and
which do not realize that they are both, a shame and a damage to the
language-system.

This is not the community. This is just the “Freak-Show”, which
every language system has, more or less.

Professionals.

So, where are the professionals, which focus on the technical essence
and which know that language-evolution has not much to do with
politics and “freak-shows” or “liking each other” and all this
nonsense?

Professionals which know, that giving to much priority to such values
will degrade the language-system.
Professionals which know, that a major part of core-level software-
development is about analysing and abstracting things.

If you like to confirm my sayings, but you don’t want to do it
publicly, please feel free to contact me with private email.

[1]
Literal Instantiation breaks Object Model
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4893

Provide Class#cb_object_instantiated_from_literal(object)
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4845

Unify Variable Expansion within Strings
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4877

.

Before anyone engages this nonsense . . .

Please don’t feed the troll. Seriously. A more obvious troll than this
message from Ilias would be really, really difficult to arrange.
Actually saying anything to him here would be a monumentally bad idea.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Ilias L. [email protected]
wrote:

Unicorns are stupid!

Actually, unicorns are much smarter than you. Why do you hate unicorns
so much, Ilias?

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 04:55:21AM +0900, A. Stroh Turph wrote:

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Ilias L. wrote:

Unicorns are stupid!

Actually, unicorns are much smarter than you. Why do you hate unicorns
so much, Ilias?

Please don’t feed the troll.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 9:26 PM, Ilias L. [email protected]
wrote:

[Stuff.]

Be aware, people: Ilias has no credentials whatsoever in programming
or language design and refuses to provide them when pressed.

If you look about 5 years back in this mailing list’s archives, you’ll
notice the same behavioural pattern (finding niggles about Ruby, lack
of ability of understanding basic things like inheritance diagrams,
refusing to listen to arguments, finally attacking Matz personally and
the community in general) he is exhibiting now.

Stop humouring him, killfile him. He’s an outcast on many, many other
language’s mailing lists, already, and one more won’t hurt.


Phillip G.

A method of solution is perfect if we can forsee from the start,
and even prove, that following that method we shall attain our aim.
– Leibnitz

On Jun 20, 2011, at 9:32 PM, Chad P. wrote:

Please don’t feed the troll.

Nice preemptive strike :slight_smile:

http://alt.textdrive.com/assets/public/non/nq070825.gif

On 20 Jun 2011 20:32, “Chad P.” [email protected] wrote:

Before anyone engages this nonsense . . .

Please don’t feed the troll. Seriously. A more obvious troll than this
message from Ilias would be really, really difficult to arrange.
Actually saying anything to him here would be a monumentally bad idea.

Requoting, because this can’t be overemphasised.

Five posts in on this thread, and four of them are the self appointed
list police saying don’t post in this thread. Ilias vs Lord of the
Flies.

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 06:08:28AM +0900, Sam D. wrote:

Five posts in on this thread, and four of them are the self appointed
list police saying don’t post in this thread. Ilias vs Lord of the Flies.

Thank you for contributing to the noise that Ilias has spawned.

I guess that makes you “Lord” number six.

Unfortunately Sam, some people are a bit sick of this madman. But if you
want to feed the troll, go right ahead. Preferably by private email.

Hi.

I’m learning ruby… I just like to say that to me Matz seems like a
very smart person.
This is the most fun and cool language I ever tried…

It’s totaly cool, as an american teen would have put it. :slight_smile:

/Mix

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 11:08 PM, Sam D. [email protected]
wrote:

Five posts in on this thread, and four of them are the self appointed list
police saying don’t post in this thread. Ilias vs Lord of the Flies.

Five seconds with Google:

http://markmail.org/message/yhqasfuazkzmqjp4
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/131618

Outside of Ruby:
http://www.phwinfo.com/forum/comp-lang-ruby/248354-trac-does-make-sense-keep-http-trac-edgewall-org-ticket-4315open.html
http://bytes.com/topic/python/answers/498890-censorship-django-project-schema-evolution-support

And a particular favourite of mine:
http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html

s/list police/experienced folk/;

Phillip G.

A method of solution is perfect if we can forsee from the start,
and even prove, that following that method we shall attain our aim.
– Leibnitz

Hopefully this rant heralds the departure of our “Mad Hatter”. The
Django people didn’t seem to take his audit seriously. Look at the
bottom of page for his Tasks/Suggestions:

http://dev.lazaridis.com/case/wiki/DjangoProductEvaluation

What an idiot!

Frankly, if everyone had left it at Ilias’ first post and the necessary
statement that we shouldn’t feed the troll, life would be grand right
now.

As it is, however, even the expressions of support for the “please don’t
feed the troll” warning have served to undermine it, and we’re right
back
where we were with the require_relative thread. I give up.

Hi Mix!

I agree. The more I work with it the more I discover how well thought
out it is. It eloquently stays out of our way and work with us. Matz
truly understands how programmer are wired. I’ve seen many languages
that seem to get away from language “gotchas” from the past but Ruby
truly addresses most of the common problems I’ve seen with the C
derived languages. Design patterns built into the language structure
and encourages usage. Genius. I also think it’s amazing that we have
complete control over the interpreter as to allow us to change and
manipulate structure depending on what language tool we are building
into it. It’s awesome and fun and begs to be hacked!

As an American adult I’ll have to agree with you. It’s totally cool!

~Stu

David, I hate to say it: you are feeding the troll. Any of us who
bothered to read the original PSA from Ryan D. (I think), and then
the other archived messages relating to him, can be sure that Ilias is
nothing more than an arrogant buffoon, who desperately wants to be taken
seriously. If he can’t be ignored then he should be mocked. Those are
the two responses that arrogant buffons like least, I believe.

Kudos Mr Masover

A quick, lazy response, because I shouldn’t feed trolls anyway, and I
simply
do not have the time tonight.

Anyone who believes Ilias should be given the benefit of the doubt, and
that
the “list police” (just concerned users, really) shouldn’t be warning
people
not to feed the troll, watch what Ilias does here. I’ll bet money that
if he
responds to this post at all, he’ll be sure to point out how little of
it he’s
read, and how little he respects me. Judge for yourself if that’s a fair
reaction to what I’m actually writing here, with no particular bias
towards
Ilias, though I should be biased by now.

On Monday, June 20, 2011 02:26:03 PM Ilias L. wrote:

If “Matz” would act like a Moron (in context of language-design),
would this mean that the “We’s” would act like moron’s, too?

Probably not.

you cannot design a consistent OO language if you apply “Design by
Egoism”. If you ignore logic and reason, just because it happens that
you have some warm feelings for a construct (or person), and cold
feelings for another one, then you apply “Design by Egoism”. And this
will slowly degrade the language.

This from the person who now ignores everything I say, no matter how
on-topic
and relevant, as “biased babbling” – yet somehow has the time to post
a
reply pointing it out as “biased babbling” and informing the community
that he
didn’t read it.

It’s his language, one will say, he has the right to do so. Well, it’s
possibly his language, but there is something more:

Honour!

Actually, there’s something even more than that: Fork it. IIRC, Ruby is
mostly
under the BSD license. If you really think Matz is doing a bad job, and
you
can’t convince him otherwise, you are welcome to fork the language or
the
interpreter. This has been done before, with some success – maybe in
the long
run, Matz will prefer your fork. See: YARV.

What is clear is, that this framework requires much from ruby - and
the Main Ruby Implementation (MRI, Matsumutos Ruby Implementation)
starts buckling.

Several new interpreters “pop out of nowhere”. There’s a “professional
edition” of ruby, other companies implement specialized versions with
new garbage-collectors, and who knows how many “hidden” ones.

Actually, one of these interpreters “popping out of nowhere” was YARV,
which
has become Ruby 1.9. It’s also given us the beginnings of an actual
language
standard, which would imply that, like other established languages, Ruby
could
have any number of compliant implementations, and your code would be
portable
between them.

Regardless, I don’t know of anyone claiming YARV is “buckling”.

Others
make the “scalability dictated” move to the beloved Java Language. And
others take the “in between solution”:

Ruby On Java On Rails.

What a contradiction! Shouting on Java, and then using Java as the
foundation to execute the “better” language, JRuby, and the “better”
web-framework. Anyway.

As if Ruby people like C any better? Using the JVM (not as much actual
Java
itself these days) as a lower-level basis for implementing Ruby, and
providing
a convenient API for scripting Java from Ruby, is really no different
than
using C to implement Ruby.

It’s Java’s semantics we don’t like, not its performance
characteristics.

Oracle & IBM & Others - large scale companies, which manage to
cooperate (because they realize they have to join efforts). Not that
the eclipse-project is a masterpiece of liberality, but at least there
are processes.

The companies surrounding ruby fail to do so. They do not cooperate
efficiently,

So they do cooperate, just not “efficiently”? Is that what you’re
saying?

In the Ruby and the Rails domain, you see “big” names in the sponsor
list of conferences and events. But you don’t see those companies
collaborate efficiently where it is most important: on the language
level.

Yet your example of Oracle, IBM, and others, is an example of
collaborating on
the IDE and framework level, not the language level.

Politics everywhere, throughout the language system, an even the
“Rebels” (see e.g. “Rails is a Ghetto”)

Say what you will about Zed, but he has actually contributed something.
Quite a lot of things, in fact.

I know that the people which write here publicly are not the so
called “community”.

The population of the language-system “Ruby” consists first of all
from the thousands of users which do not write here.

They use the language, e.g. to write glue-code for their applications,
to control a small part of a film-production, a pre-processor, a quick-
prototype or something that I can’t even imagine.

Then how do they communicate? How do you have a “community” of people
who
don’t talk to each other?

Professionals.

So, where are the professionals, which focus on the technical essence
and which know that language-evolution has not much to do with
politics and “freak-shows” or “liking each other” and all this
nonsense?

It does, however, require communication. Professional communication,
which
means broadening the scope beyond “Give me a seven-letter word that
means
require_relative, and don’t change the subject!” It means actually
discussing
actual issues, not inventing them out of thin air and refusing to
provide a
single real scenario where they are useful.

And it does mean courtesy. Not “liking each other”, but common courtesy.

If you like to confirm my sayings, but you don’t want to do it
publicly, please feel free to contact me with private email.

Of course, because then you can come back and claim you had a lot of
people
respond to you in private.

I have so far seen one person defend you, but he wasn’t defending you
personally, just didn’t like the fact that people reply to your
brand-new
thread with “don’t feed the troll.” I suspect these are people who don’t
have
experience dealing with you.

To those replying: If you think I’m wrong, I do want to know about it.
Please
do respond publicly, and tell me why I’m wrong. I’m willing to change
my
mind, really.

Ilias, of course, will respond publicly, but won’t tell me why I’m
wrong.
He’ll just dismiss what I have to say out of hand. He’ll even do it in
so many
words.

Hey, Ilias, prove me wrong. Write a professional response, for once.
Hell, even read my whole email – that’s a rare treat, coming from you.

Please do not respond to this thread with a complete list of William
Shakespeare’s works. Including but not limited to:

A Lover’s Complaint
A Midsummer Night’s Dream
All’s Well That Ends Well
Antony and Cleopatra
As You Like It
Coriolanus
Cymbeline
Funeral Elegy by W.S.
Hamlet
Henry IV, part 1
Henry IV, part 2
Henry V
Henry VI, part 1
Henry VI, part 2
Henry VI, part 3
Henry VIII
Julius Caesar
King John
King Lear
Love’s Labours Lost
Macbeth
Measure for Measure
Much Ado About Nothing
Othello
Pericles, Prince of Tyre
Richard II
Richard III
Romeo and Juliet
Taming of the Shrew
The Comedy of Errors
The Merchant of Venice
The Merry Wives of Windsor
The Rape of Lucrece
The Sonnets
The Tempest
Timon of Athens
Titus Andronicus
Troilus and Cressida
Twelfth Night
Two Gentlemen of Verona
Venus and Adonis
Winter’s Tale

Ilias.
why do not you seek a better language for you?
and live and let die with this language for us


ngel

2011/6/20 Ilias L. [email protected]

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