Forum: Ruby Are we dying?

E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-03-31 17:20
(Received via mailing list)
Hi,

if one subtracts [ANN] postings during the last few weeks traffic here
seems to have plummeted. Are there any obvious reasons I might be
overlooking?

Btw. I recall we once had long term statistics about posting
frequencies etc. Is there anybody out there still generating those?

Kind regards

robert
E088bb5c80fd3c4fd02c2020cdacbaf0?d=identicon&s=25 Jesús Gabriel y Galán (Guest)
on 2014-03-31 17:26
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:20 PM, Robert Klemme
<shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> if one subtracts [ANN] postings during the last few weeks traffic here
> seems to have plummeted. Are there any obvious reasons I might be
> overlooking?

Matz said he supported switching off the bridge between the forum and
the list, unless the spam coming from the forum was taken care of. I
guess they did switched it off, and it seems that most of the traffic
was coming from the forum :-(

Jesus.
75eb154a2d05884a8a6a8e54b6eb3deb?d=identicon&s=25 Wayne Brisette (Guest)
on 2014-03-31 17:27
(Received via mailing list)
I was actually thinking the same thing myself. In fact, there has been
10X the traffic on the XSL list I'm on and trust me that's usually one
of the slower lists. ;) I do wonder if it is because school is almost
finished, so we don't have as many new people trying out Ruby.

Wayne


________________________________
 From: Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com>
To: ruby-talk <ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 10:20 AM
Subject: Are we dying?


Hi,

if one subtracts [ANN] postings during the last few weeks traffic here
seems to have plummeted. Are there any obvious reasons I might be
overlooking?
75eb154a2d05884a8a6a8e54b6eb3deb?d=identicon&s=25 Wayne Brisette (Guest)
on 2014-03-31 17:29
(Received via mailing list)
I remember seeing that they wanted to cut the bridge between the two. I
just didn't think the forum was where most people went. Guess I was
wrong.

Wayne
A7fca2db6ff3f4583df98043bd5166f9?d=identicon&s=25 Panagiotis Atmatzidis (Guest)
on 2014-03-31 19:54
(Received via mailing list)
Attachment: signature.asc (832 Bytes)
On 31 Μαρ 2014, at 17:28 , Wayne Brisette <wbrisett@att.net> wrote:

> I remember seeing that they wanted to cut the bridge between the two. I just
didn't think the forum was where most people went. Guess I was wrong.
>
> Wayne

Makes sense, the Forums are closer to web-2.0 than the mailing lists
which will probably stop working IMHO at some point in the future. Maybe
this could be a nice (Sinatra/Rails/Whatever) project for ruby
developers. Trying to build something that is between (or bridges) a
modern, lightweight forum with a mailing list or even add more ways of
communicating: twitter, blogs, facebook posts... I can't tell much about
the quality a 140 chars question but otherwise, would be an interesting
project, given the fact that senior contributors seem to notice an
important decrease in traffic.


Panagiotis (atmosx) Atmatzidis

email:  atma@convalesco.org
URL:  http://www.convalesco.org
GnuPG ID: 0x1A7BFEC5
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 1A7BFEC5

"As you set out for Ithaca, hope the voyage is a long one, full of
adventure, full of discovery [...]" - C. P. Cavafy
Fabe1e6b28afc64cdbd3c071621a7565?d=identicon&s=25 BeeRich (Guest)
on 2014-03-31 19:56
(Received via mailing list)
Im here!  Heh.  Just dealing with other issues.  Dont worry, I will have
questions soon.

Cheers
0fe9cf3416024173bbd147d7644f7da9?d=identicon&s=25 Andreas Tiefenthaler (Guest)
on 2014-03-31 19:59
(Received via mailing list)
Hey,

That sounds like a neat project! Would be something for the RailsGirls
Summer of Code[1]. Would you be interested in pushing this further?

Andy.


[1]: http://railsgirlssummerofcode.org/

Panagiotis Atmatzidis <atma@convalesco.org> writes:
1d57c32d7712e7222dbbfdc363473837?d=identicon&s=25 Avdi Grimm (Guest)
on 2014-03-31 20:07
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:53 PM, Panagiotis Atmatzidis
<atma@convalesco.org>wrote:

> Maybe this could be a nice (Sinatra/Rails/Whatever) project for ruby
> developers. Trying to build something that is between (or bridges) a
> modern, lightweight forum with a mailing list


It already exists. It's called Discourse, it's an open-source Rails
application, and it has the express goal of doing for web forums what
Stack
Overflow did for question-answer sites. It's used by (among others) the
Thoughtbot Learn forum, the Ruby Rogues Parley forum, as well as such
high-profile non-programming fora as the BoingBoing comments area.

http://www.discourse.org/

They are always happy to get more contributors!
1d57c32d7712e7222dbbfdc363473837?d=identicon&s=25 Avdi Grimm (Guest)
on 2014-03-31 20:10
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Jess Gabriel y Galn <
jgabrielygalan@gmail.com> wrote:

> Matz said he supported switching off the bridge between the forum and
> the list, unless the spam coming from the forum was taken care of. I
> guess they did switched it off, and it seems that most of the traffic
> was coming from the forum :-(
>

Personally, if this is the case I'm thrilled, and I hope the change
"sticks". Ever since it was first plugged in, the web forum has been the
source of the lowest-quality "please do my homework for me" traffic on
this
list. It's a big part of why I don't participate as much as I used to.

/end crotchety oldster rant.
A7fca2db6ff3f4583df98043bd5166f9?d=identicon&s=25 Panagiotis Atmatzidis (Guest)
on 2014-03-31 20:13
(Received via mailing list)
Attachment: signature.asc (832 Bytes)
Hello,

On 31 Μαρ 2014, at 19:58 , Andreas Tiefenthaler <at@an-ti.eu> wrote:

> Hey,
>
> That sounds like a neat project! Would be something for the RailsGirls
> Summer of Code[1]. Would you be interested in pushing this further?

I'm afraid I won't be able to get involved in any project that has a
deadline and depends on me before September. I'm the final semester for
a Masters degree in Pharmacy, killing myself to finish ASAP.

It was just a quick thought that came from the mind and flew to the
keyboard.

Also I'm a male and don't know how I could get involved since RailsGirls
is clearly about female rails developers, isn't it?!

>>> I remember seeing that they wanted to cut the bridge between the two. I just
didn't think the forum was where most people went. Guess I was wrong.
>> GnuPG ID: 0x1A7BFEC5
>> gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 1A7BFEC5
>>
>> "As you set out for Ithaca, hope the voyage is a long one, full of adventure,
full of discovery [...]" - C. P. Cavafy



Panagiotis (atmosx) Atmatzidis

email:  atma@convalesco.org
URL:  http://www.convalesco.org
GnuPG ID: 0x1A7BFEC5
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 1A7BFEC5

"As you set out for Ithaca, hope the voyage is a long one, full of
adventure, full of discovery [...]" - C. P. Cavafy
3853dd5371ac1e094fc45d6c2aa0e459?d=identicon&s=25 Carlo E. Prelz (Guest)
on 2014-03-31 20:51
(Received via mailing list)
Subject: Are we dying?
  Date: Mon 31 Mar 14 05:20:00PM +0200

Quoting Robert Klemme (shortcutter@googlemail.com):

> if one subtracts [ANN] postings during the last few weeks traffic here
> seems to have plummeted. Are there any obvious reasons I might be
> overlooking?

During the last months, a few people posted lots of questions, almost
all of which appeared not to have been researched enough by the
questioner. My personal opinion is that at least three of the names
used were from the same individual.

If you take away those questions, not much remained.

I would never have asked those people to leave - I want to be clear
about this. But the list is a much more livable community now. That
sort of questioning just for the sake of it has distanced several
contributors. Again, this is according to my personal opinion.

Everybody is free to join, by using a real e-mail address. People with
enough goodwill can find this list. With time, real questions
motivated by concrete needs will show up again.

Carlo
85991f138ede6236f35eb98da22b7b01?d=identicon&s=25 Marvin Gülker (quintus)
on 2014-03-31 21:48
(Received via mailing list)
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Am 31.03.2014 20:51, schrieb Carlo E. Prelz:
> Everybody is free to join, by using a real e-mail address. People with
> enough goodwill can find this list. With time, real questions
> motivated by concrete needs will show up again.

Actually I second that. There came quite a lot of, well, uninteresting
content from ruby-forum.com. Id however like a definite answer on this,
as it may as well just be some technical issue coincidenting with Matz
request for removing the bridge. Just as we had for the comp.lang.ruby
usenet group disconnection.

> Carlo

Valete,
Marvin

--
Blog: http://www.quintilianus.eu

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E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-04-01 09:41
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:47 PM, Quintus <quintus@quintilianus.eu>
wrote:

> I'd however like a definite answer on this,
> as it may as well just be some technical issue coincidenting with Matz'
> request for removing the bridge. Just as we had for the comp.lang.ruby
> usenet group disconnection.

Yes, a public announcement would be in order if the bridge has been
torn down. Since I can remember having seen one and usually there is
one in such cases I suspected a different cause. Let's see whether
someone maintaining the bridge comments.

Kind regards

robert
E088bb5c80fd3c4fd02c2020cdacbaf0?d=identicon&s=25 Jesús Gabriel y Galán (Guest)
on 2014-04-01 09:54
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Avdi Grimm <groups@inbox.avdi.org>
wrote:
> Personally, if this is the case I'm thrilled, and I hope the change
> "sticks". Ever since it was first plugged in, the web forum has been the
> source of the lowest-quality "please do my homework for me" traffic on this
> list. It's a big part of why I don't participate as much as I used to.
>
> /end crotchety oldster rant.

I guess you are right. But those were the questions that I was able to
answer :D.
I don't do much Ruby at work, and I don't have much time recently for
side projects. At times, this list has been my only way of practicing
Ruby somewhat (I don't like web forums), so I miss it, even the low
quality questions.

But I agree with you, and I'd like to see more discussions about
interesting topics, along with some newbie questions so I can feel
useful :).

Can we do something?

Jesus.
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-04-01 17:37
All responses from the mailing list do show up in the forum.  This post
tests the reverse direction (forum -> mailing list).

Cheers

robert
A7a0f9b728ed1b4667f168b706de9916?d=identicon&s=25 Ken D'Ambrosio (ravenpi)
on 2014-04-01 18:05
(Received via mailing list)
On 2014-03-31 11:20, Robert Klemme wrote:

Hi!  My heartfelt thanks for starting this thread.

First, a quick introduction: I'm a long-term sysadmin/scripter, but
relatively new to Ruby.  Had heard about it for the better part of a
decade, but only last year really dug into it and realized how truly
awesome it is; I've now made the switch from P.* to Ruby.  That being
said, after I subscribed -- which was no mean feat (see below) -- I was
worried this list *was* dead.  Glad to hear that its demise "has been
greatly exaggerated."

But a few things that I, as a newbie, may have insight into that you
old-timers don't:

1) It's not really clear what the mailing list is vs. what the web forum
is, at least, from https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/community/mailing-lists/
.  A bit more verbosity there would probably be helpful in landing new
subscribers.

2) It's hard to *subscribe* to the mailing list.  First, there's the
link to the forum, with no discernible differentiation from the mailing
list.  Next, there's the web form to subscribe with... that doesn't
work.  (I've tried with both my Google and personal accounts -- no
soup.)  I humbly submit that making the manual method to subscribe be
listed *first*.

2) IMHO, I might also throw some verbiage in about what Ruby is, and how
it differs from Rails.  While it's obvious to *us*, that's only because
we have our hands dirty.  But, to the uninitiated, Ruby/Rails suffers
much the same confusion as Java/Javascript.  Explaining which someone
wants to subscribe to from the get-go would probably be rather helpful.
(Indeed, just a couple days ago, I directed someone from the Rails list
to ruby-talk).

Lastly, speaking as a sysadmin, I think Ruby has an image issue: people
*do* confuse it with rails; people *don't* know how awesome a scripting
language it is.  In a time when Perl is moribund-at-best, and Ruby does
so many things so well (e.g., it's the first truly enjoyable OOP
exposure I've had), it might be handy if folks took time to perhaps put
pen to paper, and write an article or two for (say) Linux Magazine, or
their ilk.

$.02, YMMV, etc.,

-Ken
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-04-01 18:25
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Ken D'Ambrosio <ken@jots.org> wrote:
> On 2014-03-31 11:20, Robert Klemme wrote:
>
> Hi!  My heartfelt thanks for starting this thread.

You're welcome!

> 1) It's not really clear what the mailing list is vs. what the web forum is,
> at least, from https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/community/mailing-lists/ .  A
> bit more verbosity there would probably be helpful in landing new
> subscribers.

Maybe you can add this yourself. Since you have your experience
freshly in mind you may come up with a better explanation than the
"old timers". There is a section on contributing:
https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/about/website/

> 2) It's hard to *subscribe* to the mailing list.  First, there's the link to
> the forum, with no discernible differentiation from the mailing list.  Next,
> there's the web form to subscribe with... that doesn't work.  (I've tried
> with both my Google and personal accounts -- no soup.)  I humbly submit that
> making the manual method to subscribe be listed *first*.

These two items above are really valuable feedback! Thank you for
that! I am not sure where to report the mailing list subscription
issues - maybe the contribution site helps here as well?
https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/wiki

> 2) IMHO, I might also throw some verbiage in about what Ruby is, and how it
> differs from Rails.  While it's obvious to *us*, that's only because we have
> our hands dirty.  But, to the uninitiated, Ruby/Rails suffers much the same
> confusion as Java/Javascript.  Explaining which someone wants to subscribe
> to from the get-go would probably be rather helpful.  (Indeed, just a couple
> days ago, I directed someone from the Rails list to ruby-talk).

I am really not sure how we would manage to do this. If Rails is the
"killer app" for Ruby and most people come to Ruby via that road I
guess it will be difficult to change the public recognition -
especially as non marketing pro with only so much time. I agree it
would be desirable to get more people to know Ruby independent of
Rails and for all the other nice features.

> Lastly, speaking as a sysadmin, I think Ruby has an image issue: people *do*
> confuse it with rails; people *don't* know how awesome a scripting language
> it is.  In a time when Perl is moribund-at-best, and Ruby does so many
> things so well (e.g., it's the first truly enjoyable OOP exposure I've had),
> it might be handy if folks took time to perhaps put pen to paper, and write
> an article or two for (say) Linux Magazine, or their ilk.

As said, changing an image is not that easy.

Kind regards

robert
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-04-01 18:27
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Robert Klemme
<shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:
> someone maintaining the bridge comments.
Apparently traffic from the mailing list reaches the forum but not in
the other direction. I posted about an hour ago but the message did
not yet show up on the mailing list:

https://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/4486783#1141684

Kind regards

robert
15000f55138ae94b0f362ed7c625461a?d=identicon&s=25 unknown (Guest)
on 2014-05-07 21:45
(Received via mailing list)
Am 01.04.2014 18:03, schrieb Ken D'Ambrosio:
> 2) It's hard to *subscribe* to the mailing list.  First, there's the
> link to the forum, with no discernible differentiation from the mailing
> list.  Next, there's the web form to subscribe with... that doesn't
> work.  (I've tried with both my Google and personal accounts -- no
> soup.)  I humbly submit that making the manual method to subscribe be
> listed *first*.

Sorry for the late reply:

There was a problem with the web form so that the subscription requests
queued up for quite some time. It's fixed since a couple of days.

Regards,
Marcus
15000f55138ae94b0f362ed7c625461a?d=identicon&s=25 unknown (Guest)
on 2014-05-07 21:48
(Received via mailing list)
Am 01.04.2014 18:24, schrieb Robert Klemme:
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Ken D'Ambrosio <ken@jots.org> wrote:

>> 2) It's hard to *subscribe* to the mailing list.  First, there's the link to
>> the forum, with no discernible differentiation from the mailing list.  Next,
>> there's the web form to subscribe with... that doesn't work.  (I've tried
>> with both my Google and personal accounts -- no soup.)  I humbly submit that
>> making the manual method to subscribe be listed *first*.
>
> These two items above are really valuable feedback! Thank you for
> that! I am not sure where to report the mailing list subscription
> issues - maybe the contribution site helps here as well?
> https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/wiki

Yes, problems with the web form on ruby-lang.org should be
reported to https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/.

Regards,
Marcus (stomar)
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-05-07 23:49
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 9:48 PM, <sto.mar@web.de> wrote:
> > These two items above are really valuable feedback! Thank you for
> > that! I am not sure where to report the mailing list subscription
> > issues - maybe the contribution site helps here as well?
> > https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/wiki
>
> Yes, problems with the web form on ruby-lang.org should be
> reported to https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/.

Thank you for the fix and the confirmation!

Kind regards

robert
70bed7c3e1c2bc83fc737de388a2884a?d=identicon&s=25 Chris (Guest)
on 2014-05-08 17:35
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:26:48 +0200
Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
Wouldn't it make sense to have another mailing list for the forum?

For example ruby-talk and ruby-forum, this way the mailing list
subscriber can choose themselves if they want to wade through forum
messages.

OpenBSD comes to mind with misc@, tech@, ports@

Just an idea...

Regards, Chris
85991f138ede6236f35eb98da22b7b01?d=identicon&s=25 Marvin Gülker (quintus)
on 2014-05-08 22:22
(Received via mailing list)
Chris <chris@s-4-u.net> writes:
> Wouldn't it make sense to have another mailing list for the forum?
>
> For example ruby-talk and ruby-forum, this way the mailing list
> subscriber can choose themselves if they want to wade through forum
> messages.

Indeed. Currently there is a quite confusing situation with this one-way
forwarding. As ruby-forum.com does not point out this fact it may happen
that someone wants to reply on ruby-forum.com to a message submitted via
the ruby-talk ML, leading to the original poster never seeing the reply
as it will not leave ruby-forum.com.
I definitely agree to separating the ruby-talk ML and ruby-forum.com,
but this should be done properly rather than with this in-between
situation.

Valete,
Marvin

--
Blog: http://www.quintilianus.eu

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E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-06-30 16:22
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:20 PM, Robert Klemme
<shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:

> if one subtracts [ANN] postings during the last few weeks traffic here
> seems to have plummeted. Are there any obvious reasons I might be
> overlooking?

Three months later I can say that the observation seems to be
confirmed: it's sad but this forum (the mailing list) is actually
starving.  Apart from the mentioned forum <-> mailing list gateway
issues there does not seem to be a clear reason.  Maybe mailing lists
are not fashionable any more.

Or Ruby is not used as much as before.  This is actually suggested by
some statistics:
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/t...

Others indicate differently:
http://langpop.com/timeline.html

Kind regards

robert
75eb154a2d05884a8a6a8e54b6eb3deb?d=identicon&s=25 Wayne Brisette (Guest)
on 2014-06-30 17:07
(Received via mailing list)
I think it could be multiple things. Ruby as a stand-alone language
always seemed to be overshadowed by Rails. When I look in my industry
(semiconductors), most people are still using Perl, with some migrating
over to Python and a few of us Ruby. But, of the non-Perl languages
Python seems to be gaining some traction.

There are also now dozens of languages out there for various things
(Haskell, Erlang, etc.) that have also I think added to the perceived
'decline'. Ruby isn't the sexy new language anymore.

But that's just what I'm thinking here. Could be I'm way off base.

Wayne
F6a8f6a0c94010f7b6ab011d59e9a906?d=identicon&s=25 Eric MSP Veith (Guest)
on 2014-06-30 17:19
(Received via mailing list)
Attachment: signature.asc (836 Bytes)
On Monday 30 June 2014 08:06:35, Wayne Brisette <wbrisett@att.net>
wrote:
> I think it could be multiple things. Ruby as a stand-alone language always
> seemed to be overshadowed by Rails.
>
> [...]
>
> Ruby isn't the sexy new language anymore.

I would second that.

However, it remindes me of the Perl crisis years ago. The language
seemed old,
unattractive and just to stubborn to finallly die. Still, during that
time,
seasoned programmers decided to stick with the language and create new
and
awesome things with it. For example, Moose was created during that time.
AFAIK, Ruby does not have anything that is like Moose (or Moo or Mouse),
and
I'm missing it every now and then.

I don't think that Ruby is dying. But that's just my very personal
opinion.

      --- Eric
5352cde0b084abcd6d4d783c08a51c76?d=identicon&s=25 Madhur Ahuja (Guest)
on 2014-06-30 17:25
(Received via mailing list)
I think Ruby on Rails is the most popular web based framework out there.
 node.js seems to be gaining traction on that front.


On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Eric MSP Veith
<eveith@wwweb-library.net>
F6a8f6a0c94010f7b6ab011d59e9a906?d=identicon&s=25 Eric MSP Veith (Guest)
on 2014-06-30 17:26
(Received via mailing list)
Attachment: signature.asc (836 Bytes)
On Monday 30 June 2014 17:18:48, Eric MSP Veith
<eveith@wwweb-library.net>
wrote:
> FAIK, Ruby does not have anything that is like Moose (or Moo or
> Mouse), and I'm missing it every now and then.

Let me invalidate this. There is Virtus [1] and moosex [2]. Hooray! :-D

      --- Eric


[1] https://github.com/solnic/virtus
[2] https://github.com/peczenyj/MooseX
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-06-30 17:35
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Eric MSP Veith
<eveith@wwweb-library.net> wrote:
> On Monday 30 June 2014 08:06:35, Wayne Brisette <wbrisett@att.net> wrote:
>> I think it could be multiple things. Ruby as a stand-alone language always
>> seemed to be overshadowed by Rails.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Ruby isn't the sexy new language anymore.
>
> I would second that.

That's true.  And if you look at the Linux desktop there are more
applications with a graphical UI around written in Python than in
Ruby.

> I don't think that Ruby is dying. But that's just my very personal opinion.

Just to avoid misunderstandings: my use of "dying" only referred to
this forum (the mailing list).  Decreased popularity (but not dying)
was just one possible explanation for the effect we see here.  Others
have offered other explanations such as the Ruby mailing list gateway
issues.

Kind regards

robert
0145f95b858df4fb1776afd02b605cad?d=identicon&s=25 Chris Tonkinson (Guest)
on 2014-06-30 17:45
(Received via mailing list)
Attachment: signature.asc (884 Bytes)
On 06/30/2014 11:35 AM, Robert Klemme wrote:
> That's true.  And if you look at the Linux desktop there are more
> applications with a graphical UI around written in Python than in
> Ruby.

As someone relatively new to the Ruby community (around 1 year), lack of
solid support for a GUI toolkit (I'm thinking Qt) was a major "con" at
the time I adopted Ruby (then deciding whether to throw my hat in with
Python or Ruby). Still chose Ruby but this is definitely limiting (to my
use case(s)).

Cheers,
Chris

Chris Tonkinson
610.425.7807

  "Work as if you were to live a hundred years. Pray as if you were to
die tomorrow."
  -Benjamin Franklin
7223c62b7310e164eb79c740188abbda?d=identicon&s=25 Xavier Noria (fxn)
on 2014-06-30 17:48
(Received via mailing list)
I have the impression that MLs globally decline, as Usenet did :(. No
idea
why, and no idea whether it is actually true, but hey why not throw a
conjecture, huh? :)
5e7f3a5f140ffe0175a38875dce9a564?d=identicon&s=25 Nate Quash (bklynate)
on 2014-06-30 17:56
(Received via mailing list)
I feel like the mailing-list(ML) is on the decline because most MLs are
on
the decline. Also, content wise most of the emails I receive are pretty
much lacking...

Ruby as a whole is a language I do love...I was a total programming
newbie
a year ago and learned both ruby and python...but gravitated more to
Ruby
because I love how expressive and intuitive Ruby is. Recently though, I
have started using python more and more because there's just so much
more
available to python users in terms of modules(Gems) , Web Frameworks,
and
the community (to me at least) seems more robust. Rails dominates Ruby
almost to a point where most people don't explore the language for
anything
other than web development.
F6a8f6a0c94010f7b6ab011d59e9a906?d=identicon&s=25 Eric MSP Veith (Guest)
on 2014-06-30 18:13
(Received via mailing list)
Attachment: signature.asc (836 Bytes)
On Monday 30 June 2014 11:44:41, Chris Tonkinson <chris@tonkinson.com>
wrote:
> As someone relatively new to the Ruby community (around 1 year), lack of
> solid support for a GUI toolkit (I'm thinking Qt) was a major "con" at
> the time I adopted Ruby (then deciding whether to throw my hat in with
> Python or Ruby). Still chose Ruby but this is definitely limiting (to my
> use case(s)).

Qt seems to lack any language binding except for JavaScript through qml.
However, two projects exist: qtbindings [1], which supports Ruby 1.9 and
2.0.
I'm not quite sure on what YaST is based since they adopted Ruby.

Shoes [2] is also a nice toolkit with a DSL, but it is not based on Qt,
sadly.

HTH,
      --- Eric


[1] https://github.com/ryanmelt/qtbindings
[2] http://shoesrb.com/
D2bff075522befb15313dab85f3a671b?d=identicon&s=25 Kevin Walzer (codebykevin)
on 2014-06-30 18:25
(Received via mailing list)
Don't forget Tk as well.

Sent from my iPhone
75eb154a2d05884a8a6a8e54b6eb3deb?d=identicon&s=25 Wayne Brisette (Guest)
on 2014-06-30 18:50
(Received via mailing list)
My office mate is currently looking at Ruby since that's what I'm
writing all my code in. He was asking me just last week about Tk. I
couldn't think of any recent scripts I had seen that used Tk. Are people
using Tk much these days?


--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 6/30/14, Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Are we dying?
 To: "Ruby users" <ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org>
 Date: Monday, June 30, 2014, 11:24 AM

 Don't forget Tk as well.
3853dd5371ac1e094fc45d6c2aa0e459?d=identicon&s=25 Carlo E. Prelz (Guest)
on 2014-06-30 19:02
(Received via mailing list)
Subject: Re: Are we dying?
  Date: Mon 30 Jun 14 12:24:41PM -0400

Quoting Kevin Walzer (kw@codebykevin.com):

> Don't forget Tk as well.

I would like to cite here the enormous amount of time and energy that
Kouheui Sutou and a few other heroes are pouring since ages into the
creation and maintenance of the Ruby bindings of Gnome, GTK and
friends.

http://ruby-gnome2.sourceforge.jp/hiki.cgi

I am not a friend of user interfaces, but thanks to their huge work I
was able to bring to life a large number of useful applications.

Carlo
D2bff075522befb15313dab85f3a671b?d=identicon&s=25 Kevin Walzer (codebykevin)
on 2014-06-30 19:04
(Received via mailing list)
I do;  can't speak for anyone else.

Sent from my iPhone
4131d2f57a0db2a2b4d9a62bd389fd44?d=identicon&s=25 Tony Arcieri (Guest)
on 2014-06-30 19:26
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Robert Klemme
<shortcutter@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> Or Ruby is not used as much as before.  This is actually suggested by
> some statistics:
> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/t...


It is now official. TIOBE has confirmed: Ruby is dying
F0987c97234fa9c6b26f796bdbdab037?d=identicon&s=25 Andrew Vit (Guest)
on 2014-06-30 22:32
(Received via mailing list)
On 14-06-30, 10:25, Tony Arcieri wrote:
> It is now official. TIOBE has confirmed: Ruby is dying

Yup, and LOGO is catching up:
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/t...

As for me, I'm too busy coding ruby to care.

Andrew Vit
09a32175057418748822c587ac08c429?d=identicon&s=25 Abinoam Jr. (abinoampraxedes_m)
on 2014-06-30 23:25
(Received via mailing list)
As for me, I'm too busy HAVING FUN coding ruby to care! ;-)
14b5582046b4e7b24ab69b7886a35868?d=identicon&s=25 Joel Pearson (virtuoso)
on 2014-07-01 00:26
I still use Ruby alongside VBScript, VBA, TSQL, ASP, and a few others,
often in comibination. It's often the best tool to turn what would be a
lengthy complex script in another language into an easy and flexible
snippet of reuseable code. Building objects makes everything so much
simpler to control :)
5a837592409354297424994e8d62f722?d=identicon&s=25 Ryan Davis (Guest)
on 2014-07-01 01:15
(Received via mailing list)
On Jun 30, 2014, at 8:06, Wayne Brisette <wbrisett@att.net> wrote:

> I think it could be multiple things. Ruby as a stand-alone language always
seemed to be overshadowed by Rails. When I look in my industry (semiconductors),
most people are still using Perl, with some migrating over to Python and a few 
of
us Ruby. But, of the non-Perl languages Python seems to be gaining some 
traction.
>
> There are also now dozens of languages out there for various things (Haskell,
Erlang, etc.) that have also I think added to the perceived 'decline'. Ruby 
isn't
the sexy new language anymore.

Normally I avoid threads like this, but since I've been on this list
pretty much since its inception I thought I should pitch in.

I think the problem is not ruby, the language. I think the problem is
ruby-talk, the list and its regulars. I know that I've unsubscribed
periodically, esp recently when ruby-forum was spamming us to death. I
know very few, if any, of my cohort bother to read this list anymore.
They all cite the same reason: bad signal:noise.

The specific problem **I have** mainly centers on the prolific posters
who drown out everything else, esp those who insist on answering every
inane question the help vampires can come up with rather than teaching
them how to teach themselves.

This list used to have the most wonderful signal:noise and we did a lot
to help newbs get up and running. I just don't see that anymore and it
makes me sad.

I wish the help vampires and their enablers would be redirected to
something more fruitful (or just move them to somewhere else). Then the
rest of us can focus on helping newbs get up and running so they can
enjoy ruby like the rest of us.
84019fbfc27bc409b13ee769660ff55a?d=identicon&s=25 Lars Mai (Guest)
on 2014-07-01 10:36
(Received via mailing list)
Am 30.06.14 17:47, schrieb Xavier Noria:
> I have the impression that MLs globally decline, as Usenet did :(. No idea
> why, and no idea whether it is actually true, but hey why not throw a
> conjecture, huh? :)

I think Stackoverflow may contribute to that, at least for MLs like
this. It is generally considered good practice to at least do a web
search for a solution to a problem before posting the question to the
mailinglist. SO in my experience has often come up with either the
solution or a pointer in the right direction, so that posting the
question on ruby-talk wasn't needed anymore.

Also I have the impression that some or most of the more fundamental
discussions about the ruby language itself has shifted to ruby-core or
specific redmine tickets.

And then of course Twitter is even more common these days than it used
to be 6 years ago.

I actually don't think that this is specifically bad (or good) - it may
just be that communication habits have changed, and more specific tools
have evolved.

What I see as a excellent niche for the ML is announcements and
discussions about new or updated libraries, maybe as a place to converge
development or receive feedback and pointers to something useful. Which
is why I'm not bothered at all by the [ANN] posts that are so prevalent
these days here.

My 2 cents,

- Lars
Aa082c8b00a50928e5860dcd70bf2368?d=identicon&s=25 tamouse m. (tamouse_m)
on 2014-07-01 10:47
(Received via mailing list)
As for the Ruby language, from this tiny vantage point, it seems as
popular
as ever. I'm encountering new users all the time, both live and on-line.

As for the mailing list, I couldn't say what is causing such a downturn
in
posts. Lots of possibilities, including the existence of more general
Q&A
places such as stackoverflow. IRC still seems rather popular, there's
still
lots of traffic on Freenode's #ruby and #rubyonrails channels, although
IRC
still seems to suffer from the rather unfortunate "Welcome to the
Internet"
problem.

As for me, I'm having the most fun writing in Ruby these past several
years; the last time I remember having this much fun was way back in the
late 70's writing Lisp.
09a32175057418748822c587ac08c429?d=identicon&s=25 Abinoam Jr. (abinoampraxedes_m)
on 2014-07-02 03:30
(Received via mailing list)
Hi all,

Thanks Robert Klemme for raising attention to the issue.

I'll throw my own impressions...

ABOUT THE CHANNEL
1) Mailing list interest are falling (in general) (this is old news).
  - New ways to comunicate are raising and taking place.
2) Web foruns (like phpbb) are one of the things that took place.
3) Stackoverflow more recently.
4) Discourse is probably the future! And it's in rails!
5) Lots of rubyists have blogs and concentrate their online activity
on Twitter (I only recently have adhered to it (@abinoamjr_en))

We could give Discourse a try and move this "community" formed around
the mailing list to discourse.
Same community, new channel. Perhaps it works.

ABOUT THE ACTORS
1) Most of the old newbies are now experts and don't enjoy _anymore_
joining in basic threads.
2) Newbies don't understand that Ruby _TALK_ is not about "Talking"
(relaxed, chatting) about Ruby. <sarcasm>Isn't that
obvious?</sarcasm>. And they are suprised when they "relaxed" ask to
the list (as they were at an IRC channel) "Hey everybody, anybody
could do this homework for me?" and doesn't get "good" answers.

But there's freshly debuted 'experts' that are still interested in
helping the fresh new newbies. Why not let one help the other? (Well,
there's the problem of the signal to noise ratio. Would discourse help
with that?)

ABOUT THE CONTENT
1) The more free Ruby content available in the internet the less prone
to ask to list people are. So it's "natural" to the traffic to fade
down as Ruby solidify itself. (More true if we prohibit the newbies to
ask anything that is already somewhere on the internet).
2) If newbies ask freely:
  - Noise raises (but noise for some, signal for others)
3) Why not segmentate the list?
  - Ruby-newbies for a more welcoming mailing list where people that
don't care to receive a lot of traffic with newbie questions could
join together to welcome, and take care of the new members that are
coming to help grow our community.
  - Ruby-??? for a more "rigid behavioured" mailing list with a clear
set of rules to ask and to answer so that it could make it a
high-quality content list?
  - Could discourse solve this kind of separation well?
4) And, from a "marketing" point of view, a high traffic list (even if
it is low quality content) would raise the ranking of the word _Ruby_
on the search engines. Advertising for FREE!

Abinoam Jr.

PS: Recently the Rails-BR community is trying to put up a Discourse for
them.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=pt-BR#!topic/r...
18813f71506ebad74179bf8c5a136696?d=identicon&s=25 Eric Wong (Guest)
on 2014-07-02 09:49
(Received via mailing list)
(Adding Sam to the Cc:, since he works on Discourse but I'm not sure
 if he's subscribed to ruby-talk. (I think Sam must be subscribed to
 respond to this post, though))

full thread here:
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/...

"Abinoam Jr." <abinoam@gmail.com> wrote:
> 3) Stackoverflow more recently.
> 4) Discourse is probably the future! And it's in rails!

AFAIK, Discourse is as much JS as it is Ruby.

> 5) Lots of rubyists have blogs and concentrate their online activity
> on Twitter (I only recently have adhered to it (@abinoamjr_en))
>
> We could give Discourse a try and move this "community" formed around
> the mailing list to discourse.

Some of us don't like JS or bloated GUI browsers at all.

However, I understand Discourse is working on email integration,
so maybe that concern is moot...

Email also has some great, non-obvious things going for it (which I hope
Discourse supports):

1) We can easily Cc: folks who may be subject matter experts but not
   on a particular list.  This is unfortunately uncommon on Ruby lists
   because they tend to require subscriptions.

   For example, I'm roping Sam into the discussion in hopes he can
   chime in on Discourse ;)

   Thus email addresses must remain visible and non-obfuscated.

2) Fallback to private email is important in case:
   a) the list server goes dead
   b) the conversation needs to become private

   That means no obfuscating/redirecting emails to go through a
   central server.

Why I do not contribute to Discourse (or a lot of projects nowadays):

1) Contributor License Agreement - this is a showstopper
   The Free Software Foundation is probably the only organization
   I can trust with this.

2) It's unclear if contribution is possible via Free Software only
   (that means not using proprietary web services).

>
> But there's freshly debuted 'experts' that are still interested in
> helping the fresh new newbies. Why not let one help the other? (Well,
> there's the problem of the signal to noise ratio. Would discourse help
> with that?)

I don't know if Discourse would help.  Ruby as a language isn't too
interesting to talk about anymore.  It's mature at this point and its
strengths and weakness are well-known (and work on removing the
weaknesses mostly happens on the ruby-core list :)

> ABOUT THE CONTENT
> 1) The more free Ruby content available in the internet the less prone
> to ask to list people are. So it's "natural" to the traffic to fade
> down as Ruby solidify itself. (More true if we prohibit the newbies to
> ask anything that is already somewhere on the internet).

Right, the quality of Ruby documentation has gotten much better
in recent years (thanks to the likes of drbrain and zzak!).

>   - Could discourse solve this kind of separation well?
I want _less_ segregation/segmentation, and even merging ruby-talk with
ruby-core would be great.  Every Ruby user is a potential Ruby core dev
(and every Ruby core dev is already a Ruby user).

Furthermore, it'd be nice to open the lists to non-subscribers and make
it easier to rope in folks who may not be subscribed or paying
attention.

What I'm describing is common practice on the high-traffic git and Linux
kernel mailing lists and works pretty well.  Spam isn't a big problem
with good filtering; rejecting HTML and Bcc: seems to help greatly, too.
4828d528e2e46f7c8160c336eb332836?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Heiler (shevegen)
on 2014-07-02 11:22
In reply to Eric:

> Email also has some great, non-obvious things going for it

> 1) We can easily Cc: folks

One reason why I hate emails and love forums:

I don't *have* to deal with loads of emails when I don't want to.

In a forum I can pick when I am active whenever I want to.

> Ruby as a language isn't too interesting to talk about anymore.

Ruby is a tool.

In reallife I can barely talk to any normal person about
programming. Because they don't care. And they have no
enthusiasm for it either.

> It's mature at this point and its strengths and weakness
> are well-known

Even years ago that made zero difference, so I am unsure
of what you compare here really.

> Right, the quality of Ruby documentation has gotten much
> better in recent years (thanks to the likes of drbrain and zzak!).

No. The quality of ruby documentation still sucks.

I say this with like 10 years of using ruby - and still using it.

The problem was that 10 years ago the documentation sucked even
more. It has definitely improved, yes, but it is still a steaming
pile of unusable shit in many areas.

Now you can turn a blind eye to it and just lull yourself into
believing that ruby has an awesome documentation.

Ruby is an awesome, beautiful language - but the documentation
is something to be ashamed of.



As for the mailing list, I can tell you two things:

- Without the forum here, I would not have used the mailing list at all.

- It is true that the discussion culture somewhat changed, and less
interesting talks happened on the mailing list. chris2 pointed this out
years ago already.

- Other sites such as stackoverflow have had a HUGE impact on the
mailing list. People cater towards it and often get quickly answered
there. AND they receive karma points or reputation! You don't get
reputation here really....

I think the next major boost to ruby will be mruby. If it can be on
equal level as lua, then perhaps finally more games will use mruby for
embedded scripting rather than lua.
09a32175057418748822c587ac08c429?d=identicon&s=25 Abinoam Jr. (abinoampraxedes_m)
on 2014-07-02 15:42
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 4:48 AM, Eric Wong <normalperson@yhbt.net> wrote:
> (Adding Sam to the Cc:, since he works on Discourse but I'm not sure
>  if he's subscribed to ruby-talk. (I think Sam must be subscribed to
>  respond to this post, though))

It would be awesome to hear from him.

...

> I want _less_ segregation/segmentation, and even merging ruby-talk with
> ruby-core would be great.  Every Ruby user is a potential Ruby core dev
> (and every Ruby core dev is already a Ruby user).

> Furthermore, it'd be nice to open the lists to non-subscribers and make
> it easier to rope in folks who may not be subscribed or paying
> attention.

> What I'm describing is common practice on the high-traffic git and Linux
> kernel mailing lists and works pretty well.  Spam isn't a big problem
> with good filtering; rejecting HTML and Bcc: seems to help greatly, too.

(From a lot of time ago) what I see as solution to permit non
subscribers' posts
is to have a broad list of trusted moderators to "approve" the
"bounced" messages as quickly as possible.

How many moderators do we have at Ruby Talk?

At Linux Kernel and Git mailing list, is this the way things are doing?

Abinoam Jr.
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-07-02 17:02
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:41 PM, Abinoam Jr. <abinoam@gmail.com> wrote:

> (From a lot of time ago) what I see as solution to permit non
> subscribers' posts
> is to have a broad list of trusted moderators to "approve" the
> "bounced" messages as quickly as possible.

Judging from the posting frequency here currently I do not know how
many moderators we could get.

> How many moderators do we have at Ruby Talk?

0 - if you count ruby-talk moderators only, there may be people
moderating elsewhere (e.g. I am in a German language Ubuntu portal).

Kind regards

robert
18813f71506ebad74179bf8c5a136696?d=identicon&s=25 Eric Wong (Guest)
on 2014-07-02 19:46
(Received via mailing list)
"Abinoam Jr." <abinoam@gmail.com> wrote:
> How many moderators do we have at Ruby Talk?
>
> At Linux Kernel and Git mailing list, is this the way things are doing?

There's no moderation on those lists, just spam filtering and HTML is
banned.  I'm completely against moderation: it doesn't scale, leads
to censorship (or at least accusations of it), and (I seem to recall)
more legal responsibility.

I'd rather deal with occasional spam/trolls in plain-text format (I have
good mail filters) than running a gigantic browser + website; especially
when our primary form of communication is text.
3853dd5371ac1e094fc45d6c2aa0e459?d=identicon&s=25 Carlo E. Prelz (Guest)
on 2014-07-02 20:00
(Received via mailing list)
Subject: Re: Are we dying?
  Date: Wed 02 Jul 14 05:45:51PM +0000

Quoting Eric Wong (normalperson@yhbt.net):

> I'm completely against moderation: it doesn't scale, leads
> to censorship (or at least accusations of it), and (I seem to recall)
> more legal responsibility.

+1

Carlo
09a32175057418748822c587ac08c429?d=identicon&s=25 Abinoam Jr. (abinoampraxedes_m)
on 2014-07-02 20:04
(Received via mailing list)
Hi Eric Wong,

I agree with you, I'm against "moderation" of all e-mails of the list.
As you said, it doesn't scale.
What I said is a little different. (sorry if I didn't express myself
well).

Most mail list servers "bounce" all "bad" emails to "approval" by the
"moderators".
This is almost a "default".
And most mailing list doesn't accept mails coming from addresses not
subscribed to the list.
Those e-mails are bounced.

What I'm suggesting is to build a team of moderators to "approve"
e-mails coming from "outside" the list.
For solving the problem that Eric Wong have pointed out. (Roping
people outside the list).

So that people "outside" the list that doesn't want to subscribe to
the list only to post one or two e-mails to it, could get their emails
posted on the list.

I'm against opening the list to every e-mail outside it.

In short:

Today:
1) People subscribed to the list can post freely and the mailing list
server redistribute their e-mails.
2) People outside the list are unable to post. Their e-mails are
bounced to a moderator address (probably).

What I propose:
1) <THE SAME>
2) Moderators take care of approving legitimate posters from outside the
list.

Abinoam Jr.
18813f71506ebad74179bf8c5a136696?d=identicon&s=25 Eric Wong (Guest)
on 2014-07-02 22:09
(Received via mailing list)
"Abinoam Jr." <abinoam@gmail.com> wrote:
> subscribed to the list.
>
> I'm against opening the list to every e-mail outside it.

Ah, OK, I understand you now, but I disagree.  With good spam
filtering(*), no moderation is necessary at all.  Even worse,
infrequent outsiders mean moderators forget to process the queue.

(*) I've used SpamAssassin for the past decade or so, it's great!
    I've started documenting how I use it with inotify (since 2008)
    for my personal email and also for public-inbox (same server):
    http://public-inbox.org/dc-dlvr-spam-flow.txt
A6e25480861413fa4fa712f14aea5ada?d=identicon&s=25 Roger Atkins (rba2124)
on 2014-07-03 15:31
As a beginner, struggling to gain a foothold, all I see is that "Are we
dying?" received over 40 responses, while my question has gone several
days with no response whatsoever. I have many questions, but I guess
they are too basic for this forum.
A6e25480861413fa4fa712f14aea5ada?d=identicon&s=25 Roger Atkins (rba2124)
on 2014-07-04 00:24
Never mind. I discovered there was no file attached to my question so I
deleted the post. Unfortunately, it was too late to delete my post under
this thread.
14b5582046b4e7b24ab69b7886a35868?d=identicon&s=25 Joel Pearson (virtuoso)
on 2014-07-04 00:29
Roger, the last question I saw you post I answered in about an hour...
3dcae8378d46c244172a115c28ca49ce?d=identicon&s=25 Sam Saffron (Guest)
on 2014-08-06 07:40
(Received via mailing list)
Sorry for the very late reply.

We would be more than happy to host an instance of Discourse for Ruby
talk. We already host http://parley.rubyrogues.com/ (which is private)
and nutted a lot of the mail only issues.

1. We support reply via email
2. We support creating new topics via email (if explicitly enabled)
3. We support "mailing list mode" in which you get a mail for every post
made.

I completely understand the concern about the CLA, despite Discourse
being GPL it does require a CLA for contribution, we have a few topics
on the issues surrounding:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/does-discourse-s-cont...
https://meta.discourse.org/t/a-question-on-gpl-lic...
and
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-the-gpl-and...

We would be 100% extracting out reusable bits of Discourse into MIT
gems, for example we have https://github.com/discourse/onebox under
MIT and https://github.com/SamSaffron/message_bus under MIT. I would
be more than happy to pull a lot of the mail processing out into its
own gem.

Discourse has a fair amount of advantages when it comes to running a
large group, you could segment out groups that need more private
discussions, or even have "observer only" categories. Talking about
code is easier with syntax highlighting, markdown has its advantages,
search is better and so on.

We could handle a segmented community quite well, you could ignore a
bunch of categories you don't care about and watch ones you do.
18813f71506ebad74179bf8c5a136696?d=identicon&s=25 Eric Wong (Guest)
on 2014-08-06 08:00
(Received via mailing list)
Sam Saffron <sam.saffron@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry for the very late reply.
>
> We would be more than happy to host an instance of Discourse for Ruby
> talk. We already host http://parley.rubyrogues.com/ (which is private)
> and nutted a lot of the mail only issues.
>
> 1. We support reply via email
> 2. We support creating new topics via email (if explicitly enabled)
> 3. We support "mailing list mode" in which you get a mail for every post made.

Is there a way to allow non-subscribers to post?
ruby-talk unfortunately does not allow non-subscribers to post.

Good spam filtering is required for open-posting lists, though.  I
haven't checked how Discourse filters spam; but ruby-talk (and several
other subscription-required) lists still have occasional trouble with
spam.

> be more than happy to pull a lot of the mail processing out into its
> own gem.

Cool.  It would be great if you guys accepted patches/pull requests via
Discourse/email so users don't have to login to GH :)

> Discourse has a fair amount of advantages when it comes to running a
> large group, you could segment out groups that need more private
> discussions, or even have "observer only" categories. Talking about
> code is easier with syntax highlighting, markdown has its advantages,
> search is better and so on.

Is there an easy way to download all messages to a mbox/maildir for
offline reading?

I have my mail pager configured to do diff highlighting and use the same
editor for email as I do for code.  There's also some good local search
tools for offline reading.  I use mairix (it understands threading) and
I've heard good things about notmuch, too.
3dcae8378d46c244172a115c28ca49ce?d=identicon&s=25 Sam Saffron (Guest)
on 2014-08-06 08:58
(Received via mailing list)
> Is there a way to allow non-subscribers to post?

Yes we can do that, I would probably shield it to go to a particular
category that can be triaged (each category can have distinct incoming
mail addresses)

Discourse has a fair amount of spam protection built in but we would
need to beef up the anonymous mail in stuff if we were to enable it in
high scale / visiblity.
27b3d922737b0cb5ed1428509a816e01?d=identicon&s=25 Micky (Guest)
on 2014-08-06 10:01
(Received via mailing list)
I would blame Go, which is pretty much nuts as they say in #go-nuts.
/sarcasm
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-08-06 10:23
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Sam Saffron <sam.saffron@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> Is there a way to allow non-subscribers to post?
>
> Yes we can do that, I would probably shield it to go to a particular
> category that can be triaged (each category can have distinct incoming
> mail addresses)
>
> Discourse has a fair amount of spam protection built in but we would
> need to beef up the anonymous mail in stuff if we were to enable it in
> high scale / visiblity.

This is nice. Sam, thank you for offering the hosting. I have never
tried to move a community from one medium to another. Do you guys
think it's worthwhile trying? If so we should probably collect
feedback to judge how many people here would make the move.

Kind regards

robert
3853dd5371ac1e094fc45d6c2aa0e459?d=identicon&s=25 Carlo E. Prelz (Guest)
on 2014-08-06 10:29
(Received via mailing list)
Subject: Re: Are we dying?
  Date: mer 06 ago 14 10:21:55 +0200

Quoting Robert Klemme (shortcutter@googlemail.com):

> Do you guys think it's worthwhile trying? If so we should probably
> collect feedback to judge how many people here would make the move.

I for one would only move if the move was embraced/encouraged by Matz
and/or the MRI kernel group. I use this list as a way to 'measure the
pulse rate' of my favourite language, and it does its task perfectly
as it is.

By the way, my health is quite OK and I go on coding in Ruby.

Carlo
18813f71506ebad74179bf8c5a136696?d=identicon&s=25 Eric Wong (Guest)
on 2014-08-06 11:00
(Received via mailing list)
Sam Saffron <sam.saffron@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is there a way to allow non-subscribers to post?
>
> Yes we can do that, I would probably shield it to go to a particular
> category that can be triaged (each category can have distinct incoming
> mail addresses)

OK.  One more thing: is subscription/unsubscription possible via
email-only commands?  The browser support requirements on your
README.md look very steep :<

> Discourse has a fair amount of spam protection built in but we would
> need to beef up the anonymous mail in stuff if we were to enable it in
> high scale / visiblity.

I've had good results with SpamAssassin for over 10 years, so I can
recommend it (spamc + spamd).  The combination of approaches
(rules + Bayes) seems to be a good fit.

Thanks for the info!
09a32175057418748822c587ac08c429?d=identicon&s=25 Abinoam Jr. (abinoampraxedes_m)
on 2014-08-08 00:39
(Received via mailing list)
Hi Eric Wong,

> Ah, OK, I understand you now, but I disagree.  With good spam
> filtering(*), no moderation is necessary at all.  Even worse,
> infrequent outsiders mean moderators forget to process the queue.

Forgetting to process the queue is not a problem.
Most mailing list servers may remind the moderators sending them one
e-mail per outsider's post. So the "queue" comes directly to the
moderators' mail inbox. And the moderation itself costs as little as a
push to the "reply" button.

> (*) I've used SpamAssassin for the past decade or so, it's great!
>     I've started documenting how I use it with inotify (since 2008)
>     for my personal email and also for public-inbox (same server):
>     http://public-inbox.org/dc-dlvr-spam-flow.txt

Great!
Both methods combined is even greater!
Well, you know... I don't completely trust computers ;-)

Abinoam Jr.
09a32175057418748822c587ac08c429?d=identicon&s=25 Abinoam Jr. (abinoampraxedes_m)
on 2014-08-08 01:11
(Received via mailing list)
Hi Robert (and all),

I am pretty excited with Sam Saffron's answer.

> This is nice. Sam, thank you for offering the hosting. I have never
> tried to move a community from one medium to another. Do you guys
> think it's worthwhile trying? If so we should probably collect
> feedback to judge how many people here would make the move.

We could open a separate thread for a kind of "voting", just to not
pollute the main discussion. And yes Carlo Prelz, it would be great to
hear Matz' opinion.

Here (in this thread) we could try to foresee all possible "problems".

Couldn't we just raise up the Discourse instance and let the message
movement naturally go there? Could we?

One thing I foresse is a smaller number of users. Just because a lot
of the current users (in any list that has a long run) are not active
anymore but just forgot to unsubscribe.

So, If you see a much smaller group on Discourse, we shouldn't see
this as "failure" signal. So this will not bother me in anyway as we
are raising a foundation to grow the participation level of the
remaining and newcomers one.

Another one is "timing". It may take some time for everybody to
"migrate". One or two weeks at least for us to see a good amount of
people on the new media (Discourse).

I see as a GREAT advantage of using Discourse is the possibility for
people to engage only on things they are interested in, and do this in
an easier way. As I said before, people some time have "small fights"
over here just because they have to share "Exactly" the same room. At
Discourse I think we all would be in the SAME HOUSE, but we will be
happier in being at some rooms than in anothers (and not being
prohibited to walk by the entire house).

As Sam Saffron said:
> Discourse has a fair amount of advantages when it comes to running a
> large group, you could segment out groups that need more private
> discussions, or even have "observer only" categories. Talking about
> code is easier with syntax highlighting, markdown has its advantages,
> search is better and so on.

Best regards,
Abinoam Jr.
3dcae8378d46c244172a115c28ca49ce?d=identicon&s=25 Sam Saffron (Guest)
on 2014-08-08 09:27
(Received via mailing list)
> This is nice. Sam, thank you for offering the hosting. I have never
> tried to move a community from one medium to another. Do you guys
> think it's worthwhile trying? If so we should probably collect
> feedback to judge how many people here would make the move.

We have move quite a few communities to Discourse from other formats.

http://discourse.mcneel.com/ moved from good'ol newsgroups, Parley moved
from Google groups, Docker are in the process of moving from Google
groups.

All I can promise is that it is not all roses, some people love change
others
can not stand it. Its universal constant that any shift in medium will
lead to
some people being unhappy.

Overall I think there are plenty of advantages of making an official
move to Discourse,
clearly this would be my biased opinion.

- We have very close parity to current state of affairs (with mail in
/ out options)
- It would be very good PR for Ruby showing what kind cutting edge of
apps can
be built with Ruby
- Syntax highlight / quoting etc.
- Search/history/linking/categorization and all that Jazz would be handy
- Security can be setup to give low noise areas to high visibility
conversations

I definitely think that any kind of move needs to be sanctioned by
Matz / Koichi first,
even prior to experimentation. Ideally all the conversation moves to
the new medium.
It eliminates fragmentation and allows a central spot for Ruby
dev/user discussion.
Its not a kind of move that can be done rogue.

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Robert Klemme
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-08-08 09:40
(Received via mailing list)
Hi Matz & Koichi,

in case you haven't read this. What do you think of the move of
ruby-talk to another medium ( http://www.discourse.org/ )?

Kind regards

robert
85991f138ede6236f35eb98da22b7b01?d=identicon&s=25 Marvin Gülker (quintus)
on 2014-08-08 10:38
(Received via mailing list)
Sam Saffron <sam.saffron@gmail.com> writes:

> http://discourse.mcneel.com/ moved from good'ol newsgroups, Parley moved
> from Google groups, Docker are in the process of moving from Google groups.

Just to ensure I get that right. Are we keeping the ML interface or not?

I have no incentives to always run over to some web forum, and generally
find mailinglists easier to use. It may also be that occasionally I am
too lazy to start X and just use text mode, which generally plays not
really well with highly designed websites. Having several different
communities united by a single interface in my mail client is just
superior to logging into a thousand different web forums which are
designed one way or another with or without similarities.

Vale,
Marvin
5a0d7f0cb2fac7858d234de7f7f01491?d=identicon&s=25 Alex Chaffee (Guest)
on 2014-08-08 14:22
(Received via mailing list)
> On Aug 8, 2014, at 4:37 AM, quintus@quintilianus.eu wrote:
>
> Having several different
> communities united by a single interface in my mail client is just
> superior to logging into a thousand different web forums which are
> designed one way or another with or without similarities.

Absolutely agree. If a community is not in email, it's just another
archive to occasionally show up in a google search -- or more likely be
completely forgotten.
6738588a11b852833edf6aec90ef6fa3?d=identicon&s=25 Yukihiro Matsumoto (Guest)
on 2014-08-08 16:28
(Received via mailing list)
Hi,

Having discourse as a media for our communication channel sounds good.
I think obsoleting ruby-talk still needs discussion among the community.

              matz.



In message "Re: Are we dying?"
    on Fri, 8 Aug 2014 09:39:49 +0200, Robert Klemme
<shortcutter@googlemail.com> writes:
|
|Hi Matz & Koichi,
|
|in case you haven't read this. What do you think of the move of
|ruby-talk to another medium ( http://www.discourse.org/ )?
|
|Kind regards
|
|robert
797ef431a5e1295b56c08e1db4c8d2df?d=identicon&s=25 botp (Guest)
on 2014-08-08 17:13
(Received via mailing list)
On 8/8/14, Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby.or.jp> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Having discourse as a media for our communication channel sounds good.
> I think obsoleting ruby-talk still needs discussion among the community.
>
>               matz.

pls do not remove  the mailing list.
thanks --botp
4828d528e2e46f7c8160c336eb332836?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Heiler (shevegen)
on 2014-08-08 17:26
Personally I never used or needed ruby-talk, but that is because I never
learned how to deal with mass emails in general. :)

I more like the forum-approach style.

Or http://bugs.ruby-lang.org/projects/ruby-trunk too - of course this is
not good for a discussion forum, but the principle I like very much.

What I have however noticed in the last some years is that new stuff
like github, and that includes the notifications there, had an impact or
a change over the old mailing-list discussion styles.

The great thing about a forum is that I can be lazy and respond only
when I want to, whereas with mass mails I would feel compelled to have
to reply to everything and this is just way too much work. And then it
feels as if I have to clean up through a lot of mails ... which takes
away time I could better use to write ruby code!
4a8632084a26acb9c096afd674ad773d?d=identicon&s=25 Darryl Pierce (mcpierce)
on 2014-08-08 19:35
(Received via mailing list)
On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:12:39PM +0800, botp wrote:
> On 8/8/14, Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby.or.jp> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Having discourse as a media for our communication channel sounds good.
> > I think obsoleting ruby-talk still needs discussion among the community.
> >
> >               matz.
>
> pls do not remove  the mailing list.
> thanks --botp

+1 !!!

I don't want a web interface. I find emails much easier to search when I
need to find something that's been discussed in past.
67a21c4ce388553b24d59b6d9d73283d?d=identicon&s=25 Tom C. (tom_c)
on 2014-08-08 19:55
(Received via mailing list)
For me, a mailing list is essential. I do not and will not follow forums
-
simply too much bother, and I don't have the time. I WILL consult a
forum
to solve specific problems, but that's it.


On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Darryl L. Pierce <mcpierce@gmail.com>
F37560f324be02a7e7741d0d66987c95?d=identicon&s=25 Amadeus Folego (Guest)
on 2014-08-08 20:08
(Received via mailing list)
Maybe this could be an opportunity for discourse to be a transparent
medium between mailing lists and the forum?
906c44824ec4825ebe0d2f3f8732d8a3?d=identicon&s=25 Will Parsons (Guest)
on 2014-08-08 20:10
(Received via mailing list)
Tom Cloyd wrote:
>
>> > pls do not remove  the mailing list.
>> > thanks --botp
>>
>> +1 !!!
>>
>> I don't want a web interface. I find emails much easier to search when I
>> need to find something that's been discussed in past.

Agree - no web forum please!
9a45896e48a382fe5c656b8873e0dfcb?d=identicon&s=25 Stu (Guest)
on 2014-08-08 22:33
(Received via mailing list)
I agree with the fact that using email as a vehicle for communication is
something we don't want to lose. Having an upgrade to ruby-forum.com
would
be nice. Is discourse our only option?

Having a centralized area for user contrib tutorials for both
clarification
and education, user code commits to further enhance the site as well as
getting back to the basics of mentoring from older community members to
aid
noobies to both ruby and programming.

If there is anything I could do to help let me know. I would love to be
participative to the transition and give back to this community what it
has
given me.

Stu
A5ef57b56d0251515907a944f91c1615?d=identicon&s=25 Kasper Marklund (Guest)
on 2014-08-08 22:49
(Received via mailing list)
I would only say, being a N00bie that taking part of and being reminded
of
(daily) discussions via e-mail is an inspiration to me.

Cheers/Kasper
18813f71506ebad74179bf8c5a136696?d=identicon&s=25 Eric Wong (Guest)
on 2014-08-08 23:05
(Received via mailing list)
quintus@quintilianus.eu wrote:
> I have no incentives to always run over to some web forum, and generally
> find mailinglists easier to use. It may also be that occasionally I am
> too lazy to start X and just use text mode, which generally plays not
> really well with highly designed websites. Having several different
> communities united by a single interface in my mail client is just
> superior to logging into a thousand different web forums which are
> designed one way or another with or without similarities.

Right on.  I couldn't figure out a way to subscribe via email-only
commands to meta or try.discourse.org, nor could I find a way to
subscribe on the website with the text-only lynx browser.

Using Ruby does not require a GUI, so discussing Ruby should not require
a GUI.  Heck, discussing anything using text should never require a GUI.

That said, reading old archives of newly-discovered lists is a pain for
many mailing lists.  Gmane is great, but NNTP is slow to sync for
offline reading.

ssoma + public-inbox[1] seems OK for the some Ruby projects I run; it
stores messages in git, and allows extracting messages to any
mbox/Maildir/IMAP location as well as feeding mlmmj lists.


[1] http://public-inbox.org/ + http://ssoma.public-inbox.org/
09a32175057418748822c587ac08c429?d=identicon&s=25 Abinoam Jr. (abinoampraxedes_m)
on 2014-08-08 23:37
(Received via mailing list)
Hi all,

Throwing some bytes more on the discussion.

We can't forget that we ALREADY have a FORUM option for the list.
We had some problems with these forum-list gateway in the past.
If Discourse when properly configured could handle both "faces" of our
community it would be really great in my opinion.

I just don't know Discourse enough to be sure it can "mimetize" the
mail only mailing list well.

Stu, I really don't know any other options as qualified for the job as
Discourse.
And remember, we would be using and helping the growth of a tool that
uses Ruby.

The Ruby-Lang website is made in Jekyll
https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/about/website/
http://jekyllrb.com/

Ruby Issue tracker is powered by Redmine
https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/projects/ruby-trunk
http://www.redmine.org/

We mainly use GitHub as code repository.

I think we really couldn't ignore the fact that Discourse uses Ruby.

Well, weekend is coming, perhaps I'll have time to explorer Discourse
a little bit more and contribute with a more "solid" opinion on the
issue.

Best regards,
Abinoam Jr.
Aa082c8b00a50928e5860dcd70bf2368?d=identicon&s=25 tamouse m. (tamouse_m)
on 2014-08-08 23:51
(Received via mailing list)
My 2 cents: I will not participate in discussions in a web forum. I've
never found one (including google groups) that I can use.
09a32175057418748822c587ac08c429?d=identicon&s=25 Abinoam Jr. (abinoampraxedes_m)
on 2014-08-09 00:11
(Received via mailing list)
Attachment: DiscoursePreferences.png (20 KB)
Hi Tamouse,

And if Discourse would be highly transparent and we could interact
with "the forum" by e-mail as we do today?
Today, there's some people that interact with the Ruby-Talk list
_only_ by the web forum.
I'm not sure if this is already accomplished by Discourse. But if so,
it would be great!
I've recently subscribed to http://parley.rubyrogues.com but didn't
have the time to explore it well.
I'll set on all email options now and see how it works to get a more
clear ideia of how it is.
Attaching a capturing of how the preferences look like.

Abinoam Jr.
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-08-09 00:19
(Received via mailing list)
On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Stu <stu@rubyprogrammer.net> wrote:

> Having a centralized area for user contrib tutorials for both clarification
> and education, user code commits to further enhance the site as well as
> getting back to the basics of mentoring from older community members to aid
> noobies to both ruby and programming.

Only that the "centralized area" part won't work - the web just has
too many places.  I mean, it's unlikely to be able to deliberately
make a site central - either it happens because users are flowing that
way, or it doesn't.

Kind regards

robert
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-08-09 00:22
(Received via mailing list)
On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 11:50 PM, tamouse pontiki
<tamouse.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> My 2 cents: I will not participate in discussions in a web forum. I've never
> found one (including google groups) that I can use.

Well, GG is particularly awful.  I'd even say it's one of the worst -
if not _the_ worst - service from Google.  For any extended period of
time I'd rather read Usenet with tin than GG.

Cheers

robert
3dcae8378d46c244172a115c28ca49ce?d=identicon&s=25 Sam Saffron (Guest)
on 2014-08-09 00:48
(Received via mailing list)
> Right on.  I couldn't figure out a way to subscribe via email-only
commands to meta or try.discourse.org, nor could I find a way to
subscribe on the website with the text-only lynx browser.


Subscribe via email does not exist at the moment, we would need to
build that, I would be happy to write it if needed for a move like this.
We already have the lions share of the code used for "invite" user

Those who are concerned about the mailing list part of thing. Create an
account
on meta and turn the email volume up: http://imgur.com/exR4k8A after
doing that
you would no longer need to do anything via a web browser (except for
create
topic on meta) cause we don't have this filled in
http://imgur.com/5w4TbAl

I think the hybrid approach can work.

The bigger issue I can not resolve is sociological changes that will
follow.
Reducing barriers to conversation will change the face of the group, we
could
isolate some of this with categories, but overall a "new" type of people
would
start posting here which may go against some people's desire.

I wonder if anyone here would refuse to have the content mirrored in a
web
forum? That is a concern I can not really address.
9a45896e48a382fe5c656b8873e0dfcb?d=identicon&s=25 Stu (Guest)
on 2014-08-09 06:57
(Received via mailing list)
On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Robert Klemme
<shortcutter@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> too many places.  I mean, it's unlikely to be able to deliberately
> make a site central - either it happens because users are flowing that
> way, or it doesn't.
>

It was an idealistic statement. I figured if the forum was going to be
sunsetted for one reason or another that one possible future ruby-talk
feature could be a place for community driven edification(maybe like
user-owned wikis with user level trust to allow their friends editing
rights or commit bits, if you will). Seems like many of the sites that
did
this died out or where displaced by SO. Voting systems (like SO) seem
more
for just getting an answer than grokking the programming paradigms. I
would
also recommend a pastebin style feature even though there are many such
sites and tools out there already.

On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 4:04 PM, Eric Wong <normalperson@yhbt.net> wrote:
> commands to meta or try.discourse.org, nor could I find a way to
> stores messages in git, and allows extracting messages to any
> mbox/Maildir/IMAP location as well as feeding mlmmj lists.
>
>
> [1] http://public-inbox.org/ + http://ssoma.public-inbox.org/
>

Maybe this: https://github.com/matz/mail
vi/mutt or emacs/cmail nano/pico/pine/(re)alpine etc. I agree it's a
huge
user base that would be abandoned by being only assessable via graphical
browser only. Mapping out and reducing the digital divide would be
imperative. I'm not sold on discourse either. It's main selling point is
that it is optimized for search engines and has that twitter bootstrap
js
mobile theme. I am curious how discourse mailing lists feature stands up
to
the tried and true methods. I don't believe ruby-talk forums/usenet/ML
ever
really had a problem with being crawled so it's a redundancy. Worse case
we
could fork discourse and strip it of any limitations and implement
what's
missing by using ruby at what it's best at: molding the language to the
problem domain (which in the case is the ruby community needs).

Stu
C40020a47c6b625af6422b5b1302abaf?d=identicon&s=25 Stefano Crocco (crocco)
on 2014-08-09 09:18
(Received via mailing list)
Excerpts from Tom Cloyd's message of 2014-08-08 19:55:04 +0200:
> > > > Hi,
> > +1 !!!
> >
> > I don't want a web interface. I find emails much easier to search when I
> > need to find something that's been discussed in past.
> >
> > --
> > Darryl L. Pierce <mcpierce@gmail.com>
> > http://mcpierce.blogspot.com/
> > Famous last words:
> >    "I wonder what happens if we do it this way?"
> >

I agree completely. I'd hate to, but if the mailing list were replaced
by a
web interface (whatever its exact form), I'd stop following it. Having
messages
just popping in my mailbox is extremely convenient. Having to remember
to check
the web page, even if only once or twice a day wouldn't be.

Stefano
6738588a11b852833edf6aec90ef6fa3?d=identicon&s=25 Yukihiro Matsumoto (Guest)
on 2014-08-09 17:50
(Received via mailing list)
Hi,

In message "Re: Are we dying?"
    on Sat, 9 Aug 2014 08:48:10 +1000, Sam Saffron
<sam.saffron@gmail.com> writes:

|I wonder if anyone here would refuse to have the content mirrored in a web
|forum? That is a concern I can not really address.

The mailing lists have been archived in our server from the beginning,
so I expect no one would complain about mirroring.  For your
information, I have received very few removal requests in last 15+
years of mailing lists history.

              matz.
67a21c4ce388553b24d59b6d9d73283d?d=identicon&s=25 Tom C. (tom_c)
on 2014-08-09 18:11
(Received via mailing list)
The key word in that idea is "archive". Having a searchable archive has
proven distinctly useful to me (and surely to others as well) on more
than
one occasion. It is difficult for me to imagine what objection anyone
might
have to such an archive.

However, NOT having all primary questions and discussions go to a
mailing
list folder in my inbox seems to discourage promotion of an actively
engaged community.

It is interesting to note that this mailing list/forum question, when
the
subject is an entire operating system, seems (in my experience) to be
resolved in favor of a forum-primary solution, perhaps because the
questions tend to be so highly technical (and so not of broad interest)
and
because there are multiple versions of the OS involved. (I'm thinking of
the Ubuntu/Kubuntu, etc. forums). But even then there is the option to
be
notified of responses to a thread, so that continued involvement is
easy.

What is NOT easy, however, is to see what people in general are talking
about today. For that, one must browse to the forum, then sign in, then
click a while, etc. That effort-barrier simply discourage involvement,
to
my mind.

So, I check in on the Ruby community discussion fairly often. I never go
to
the Kubuntu forum unless I need something. That's a huge difference.

Tom
85991f138ede6236f35eb98da22b7b01?d=identicon&s=25 Marvin Gülker (quintus)
on 2014-08-10 12:24
(Received via mailing list)
"Abinoam Jr." <abinoam@gmail.com> writes:

> And if Discourse would be highly transparent and we could interact
> with "the forum" by e-mail as we do today?

I have no problems with the ML being accessible read-write through a web
forum interface, as long as it does not result in the large amount of
spam ruby-talk received from ruby-forum.com. The main problem I have
seen with (even replyable) notification emails (at least those from
GitHub) is that they don’t properly set the references mail header,
i.e. instead of creating a proper discussion tree in my mail client that
shows who replied to whom, the result is a starting email to which all
following responses are mapped directly. This makes it significantly
harder to follow the branches a larger discussion creates (and
especially ignoring those branches you are not interested in).

Valete,
Marvin
--
Blog: http://www.quintilianus.eu

I will reject HTML emails.     | Ich akzeptiere keine HTML-Nachrichten.
                               |
Use GnuPG for mail encryption: | GnuPG für Mail-Verschlüsselung:
http://www.gnupg.org           | http://gnupg.org/index.de.html
3933dc21a448bdfebdba4b769e643706?d=identicon&s=25 Brandon Ericsson (Guest)
on 2014-08-10 17:55
(Received via mailing list)
Hi,

The virtual drive.  This solves the abelian.  I have a j.  Ask. -- There
are fewer tk-dnds with the direct approach to Discourse from forum load
but there are fewer people who know Ruby at that layer for tk-d and j.
It's Zellian3 to mention it.  The way to boe is longer $t-s-d-f.  For
the macro, ACD is l-47.2378 but use a direct disk without a cable.  This
prevents proton wash.  Use q-T.

Mr. Brandon M. Ericsson
studentID: 14B8281076
brandon.ericsson@my.cs.coloradotech.edu
________________________________________
From: ruby-talk <ruby-talk-bounces@ruby-lang.org> on behalf of Quintus
<quintus@quintilianus.eu>
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 4:23 AM
To: Ruby users
Subject: Re: Are we dying?

"Abinoam Jr." <abinoam@gmail.com> writes:

> And if Discourse would be highly transparent and we could interact
> with "the forum" by e-mail as we do today?

I have no problems with the ML being accessible read-write through a web
forum interface, as long as it does not result in the large amount of
spam ruby-talk received from ruby-forum.com. The main problem I have
seen with (even replyable) notification emails (at least those from
GitHub) is that they dont properly set the references mail header,
i.e. instead of creating a proper discussion tree in my mail client that
shows who replied to whom, the result is a starting email to which all
following responses are mapped directly. This makes it significantly
harder to follow the branches a larger discussion creates (and
especially ignoring those branches you are not interested in).

Valete,
Marvin
--
Blog: http://www.quintilianus.eu

I will reject HTML emails.     | Ich akzeptiere keine HTML-Nachrichten.
                               |
Use GnuPG for mail encryption: | GnuPG fr Mail-Verschlsselung:
http://www.gnupg.org           | http://gnupg.org/index.de.html
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-08-10 23:02
(Received via mailing list)
On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Brandon Ericsson
<brandon.ericsson@my.cs.coloradotech.edu> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The virtual drive.  This solves the abelian.  I have a j.  Ask. -- There are
fewer tk-dnds with the direct approach to Discourse from forum load but there 
are
fewer people who know Ruby at that layer for tk-d and j.  It's Zellian3 to 
mention
it.  The way to boe is longer $t-s-d-f.  For the macro, ACD is l-47.2378 but use 
a
direct disk without a cable.  This prevents proton wash.  Use q-T.

???

From what phrase generator did you pull that?

Cheers

robert
09a32175057418748822c587ac08c429?d=identicon&s=25 Abinoam Jr. (abinoampraxedes_m)
on 2014-08-11 01:39
(Received via mailing list)
:-) phew!

I'm not a native english speaker and was just thinking about how bad
my english was. I just didn't understand nothing at all!!!

Abinoam Jr.

On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Robert Klemme
1965dde5a9876d3ee049b76cfc74e6ec?d=identicon&s=25 Christian Pedaschus (Guest)
on 2014-08-21 21:10
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:21:55 +0200
Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:

> think it's worthwhile trying? If so we should probably collect
> feedback to judge how many people here would make the move.
>
> Kind regards
>
> robert
>

I would make the move ...
Ember rocks, Discourse also.
1965dde5a9876d3ee049b76cfc74e6ec?d=identicon&s=25 Christian Pedaschus (Guest)
on 2014-08-21 21:12
(Received via mailing list)
On Fri, 8 Aug 2014 15:07:16 -0300
Amadeus Folego <amadeusfolego@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe this could be an opportunity for discourse to be a transparent
> medium between mailing lists and the forum?
>
> On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:55:04AM -0600, Tom Cloyd wrote:
> > For me, a mailing list is essential. I do not and will not follow
> > forums - simply too much bother, and I don't have the time. I WILL
> > consult a forum to solve specific problems, but that's it.

+1

keep the mailing-list, but offer a new medium anyways
3dcae8378d46c244172a115c28ca49ce?d=identicon&s=25 Sam Saffron (Guest)
on 2014-10-17 02:49
(Received via mailing list)
I have been watching stuff here for a few months and traffic is quite
low. There are some interesting discussions but they are few and far
apart.

I think it would be good for Ruby to promote a modern forum built in
Ruby. When people first learn about Ruby they visit
https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ and then look at
https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/community/ ... sadly the "lists and
newsgroups" stuff is arcane and old. By using something like Discourse
you would be showing off to the community that "hey, we can build this
stuff in Ruby" its open source, it is also far more welcoming.

I will work hard to maintain feature parity with the current mailing
list (most of the boxes are already ticked anyway), and fix stuff
people find missing after a move. I would also very much like to take
a shot at migrating the data.

Can somebody forward me an archive of all the old stuff so I can give
a shot at migrating the data over so you can have a look (I will make
it read only / non-indexable for the initial import)
5c45911140d3bfae38d93c577e6e08ad?d=identicon&s=25 Leam Hall (Guest)
on 2014-10-17 03:15
(Received via mailing list)
On 10/16/14 20:48, Sam Saffron wrote:
> I have been watching stuff here for a few months and traffic is quite
> low. There are some interesting discussions but they are few and far
> apart.

Quality, though. I've asked a couple questions and gotten great
responses. Not too fond of forums.

Leam
3dcae8378d46c244172a115c28ca49ce?d=identicon&s=25 Sam Saffron (Guest)
on 2014-10-17 03:23
(Received via mailing list)
I do not see Rust (hosted on Discourse) http://discuss.rust-lang.org/
or Ember http://discuss.emberjs.com/ have any particular issues with
quality.

Why do you think a hybrid forum/mailing list would have issues? If
anything moderation becomes a possibility.
18813f71506ebad74179bf8c5a136696?d=identicon&s=25 Eric Wong (Guest)
on 2014-10-17 03:38
(Received via mailing list)
Sam Saffron <sam.saffron@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can somebody forward me an archive of all the old stuff so I can give
> a shot at migrating the data over so you can have a look (I will make
> it read only / non-indexable for the initial import)

I don't know about official archives, but gmane.org has NNTP archives.
The following slrnpull.conf should work:

-------------------- slrnpull.conf ----------------------
# group_name                 max        expire     headers_only
gmane.comp.lang.ruby.general 1000000000 1000000000 0

# usage: slrnpull -d $PWD -h news.gmane.org --no-post
E0d864d9677f3c1482a20152b7cac0e2?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Klemme (robert_k78)
on 2014-10-17 12:56
(Received via mailing list)
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 3:37 AM, Eric Wong <normalperson@yhbt.net>
wrote:
> gmane.comp.lang.ruby.general 1000000000 1000000000 0
>
> # usage: slrnpull -d $PWD -h news.gmane.org --no-post

IMO the official and oldest archive of the mailing list is here:
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/ruby/ruby-talk/index.shtml

Wait, #1 is a reply (and funnily it's from an old email account of
mine):
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/...

Hm, maybe there is some numeric overflow...

Kind regards

robert
5c45911140d3bfae38d93c577e6e08ad?d=identicon&s=25 Leam Hall (Guest)
on 2014-10-17 13:55
(Received via mailing list)
On 10/16/14 21:23, Sam Saffron wrote:
>>> I have been watching stuff here for a few months and traffic is quite
>>> low. There are some interesting discussions but they are few and far
>>> apart.
>>
>>
>> Quality, though. I've asked a couple questions and gotten great responses.
>> Not too fond of forums.
>>
>> Leam

Hey Sam,

I prefer mailing lists because of time constraints. The mail comes in, I
glance at it to see if I can help, and either reply or move on. The same
for when I ask a question, responses come directly to me.

With a forum I have to log in, find the heading, find the subject, and
then see if anything applies.

Mailing lists are much more time economical.

Forums are not bad, but I much prefer mailing lists when first diving
into a subject. The learning feedback is much faster and often of a
higher quality.

Leam
3dcae8378d46c244172a115c28ca49ce?d=identicon&s=25 Sam Saffron (Guest)
on 2014-10-17 14:04
(Received via mailing list)
I am not following, Discourse operates in mailing list mode so, if you
wish, nothing changes on your side
9f21906ee16bb12fd056f09816c54244?d=identicon&s=25 Alejandro Exojo (Guest)
on 2014-10-17 14:25
(Received via mailing list)
El Friday 17 October 2014, Sam Saffron escribi:
> I am not following, Discourse operates in mailing list mode so, if you
> wish, nothing changes on your side

I was going to highlight exactly that. I haven't tried it as of right
now, but
the cool feature of Discourse (to me) is that hopefully I can have a
mailing
list interface to communicate with people who prefer a web one.

Also note that the mailing list now runs on Mailman, and that the next
major
version will have a more powerful web interface too, so it might be
improved
with just an upgrade of the software on the server:

Article:
http://lwn.net/Articles/596049/
Abdb670e1c130f96f947a94d03c02efa?d=identicon&s=25 Eric Christopherson (echristopherson)
on 2014-10-17 20:06
(Received via mailing list)
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Sam Saffron <sam.saffron@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I have been watching stuff here for a few months and traffic is quite
> low. There are some interesting discussions but they are few and far
> apart.
>
> I think it would be good for Ruby to promote a modern forum built in
> Ruby.

Technology-wise, I would agree. But do we have a plan on convincing
people to actually use it? And would this mailing list still exist in
its current form, or would it get completely moved to the Discourse
hybrid forum/list? If this list stays a separate entity, we'll have
even more fragmentation (although with the list's activity as low as
it is, maybe it doesn't matter).

> When people first learn about Ruby they visit
> https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ and then look at
> https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/community/ ... sadly the "lists and
> newsgroups" stuff is arcane and old.

Oh, I see some problems there. Sorry to go a little bit off the topic,
but does anyone know who to email to get the wording on ruby-lang.org
and ruby-forum.com changed? For instance,
https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/community/mailing-lists/ says:

| Ruby-Talk is mirrored by Ruby-Forum.com.

This is true, as far as I can tell, but the mirroring obviously no
longer goes the other way. Likewise, https://www.ruby-forum.com/ says:

| Ruby
| General Ruby questions. NOT Ruby on Rails. Gateway to the ruby-talk
mailing list.

-- when the forum is definitely not a gateway to this list anymore.
18813f71506ebad74179bf8c5a136696?d=identicon&s=25 Eric Wong (Guest)
on 2014-10-17 20:33
(Received via mailing list)
Eric Christopherson <echristopherson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Technology-wise, I would agree. But do we have a plan on convincing
> people to actually use it? And would this mailing list still exist in
> its current form, or would it get completely moved to the Discourse
> hybrid forum/list? If this list stays a separate entity, we'll have
> even more fragmentation (although with the list's activity as low as
> it is, maybe it doesn't matter).

I think Sam's goal is to import current subscribers + archives into
Discourse so the transition is transparent.  At least I hope that's
Sam's goal :)

Note: at some point in the past year or two, ruby-talk switched to
Mailman and it was completely transparent to subscribers.  No passwords
to remember, hardly anybody noticed.  Heck, the ruby-talk Mailman
instance was even configured to not send annoying monthly reminder
messages)  (a huge "Thank you" for that :)
Abdb670e1c130f96f947a94d03c02efa?d=identicon&s=25 Eric Christopherson (echristopherson)
on 2014-10-17 21:03
(Received via mailing list)
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Eric Wong <normalperson@yhbt.net>
wrote:
> Sam's goal :)
>
> Note: at some point in the past year or two, ruby-talk switched to
> Mailman and it was completely transparent to subscribers.  No passwords
> to remember, hardly anybody noticed.  Heck, the ruby-talk Mailman
> instance was even configured to not send annoying monthly reminder
> messages)  (a huge "Thank you" for that :)

Indeed, thanks to all for that. There's nothing I love more than
getting monthly reminders from mailing lists with my password in
cleartext. (I don't know if Mailman lists ever do that, but I've known
others that do.)



--

        Eric Christopherson
5c45911140d3bfae38d93c577e6e08ad?d=identicon&s=25 leam hall (Guest)
on 2014-10-17 21:11
(Received via mailing list)
Wouldn't it be more useful to find some way to identify recurring
questions, collate good answers, and make those available to the
community? If questions recurringly get asked it is useful to be the
place with the answers.

Leam
85991f138ede6236f35eb98da22b7b01?d=identicon&s=25 Marvin Gülker (quintus)
on 2014-10-18 15:18
(Received via mailing list)
Eric Christopherson <echristopherson@gmail.com> writes:

> Oh, I see some problems there. Sorry to go a little bit off the topic,
> but does anyone know who to email to get the wording on ruby-lang.org
> and ruby-forum.com changed?

For ruby-lang.org, you can file a ticket on the repository or even
submit a pull request:

  https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org

For ruby-forum.com I don’t know. Maybe post to the site?

Vale,
Quintus

--
Blog: http://www.quintilianus.eu

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                               |
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