Forum: Ruby on Rails No Configuration!!! WHAT?!

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A8f22f20d80a6e694631d0e2346127f0?d=identicon&s=25 Oroku Saki (orokusaki)
on 2008-12-24 08:25
So, I came from PHP, and CodeIgniter (which is nice, but restrictive
with no ORM)I spent the last 9 months trying to understand Ruby on
Rails, and I love it. The only problems are that it takes so long to
learn fully, it costs a lot to host it, and there's a ton of
configuration/plugins and everything else.

SO, I've been playing with Web2Py.

Picture this:

Exactly the same features as Rails... plus:

Coding in your browser over the internet ( no FTP-ing files back and
forth )

Installing everything on a standard hosting environment

Here's the comparison between Web2Py and other frameworks (AMAZING - way
less code - no configuration)
http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/web2py_v...


I installed it in like 3 minutes just by double clicking the file (with
no shell commands at all), and choosing a password, and created a model
using this tool in like 10 minutes:
http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/sqldesigner/default/sqldesigner

I built a Shopping Cart that accepts credit card information and has a
catalog with image uploads and categories in less than 1 full day.

Here's the best part:
It's twice as fast as Rails at run-time (so way less hosting and happier
customers).

As far as I can tell it's the best framework on the internet, and from
the website, I think one person piloted the whole thing: (kinda like the
Ruby language with Matsumoto)

I'll give this a college try, cause I don't have time for all the low
level programming.
9a2a53db8e9b4476038c94a64b32833f?d=identicon&s=25 Ryan Bigg (ryan-bigg)
on 2008-12-24 10:09
(Received via mailing list)
You're posting on a ruby forum, about how good python is?

Um... right.
-----
Ryan Bigg
Freelancer
http://frozenplague.net
A8f22f20d80a6e694631d0e2346127f0?d=identicon&s=25 Oroku Saki (orokusaki)
on 2008-12-24 10:21
Ryan Bigg wrote:
> You're posting on a ruby forum, about how good python is?
>
> Um... right.

I just thought that we were all here to make each other's lives easier.
Python, Ruby, Rails, Web2Py - All open source/free/community supported.

I'm not trying to start a language war. It's just that Python runs
nearly 7 times faster than Ruby, so naturally a framework built on
Python can run 7 times as fast as Rails if properly built. That's the
only reason I left Ruby for good, out of all the little reasons, is
because it runs so slow. Otherwise, I kind of like it.

If I was walking through the desert, I'd rather have a bottle of water
(easy, just open and drink) strapped to my back than a giant cactus
(hard, crush and collect, then drink), and I'd rather have both of my
legs to run faster than to have gangrene in one of my thighs and hobble
at 1/7th of the speed. Thought you might like the same. Wouldn't you?
80e4cb97cae5c8d745f72337d93fd8f2?d=identicon&s=25 MaD (Guest)
on 2008-12-24 10:32
(Received via mailing list)
yeah, nice comparison...
i'd like to have some cactus though.
9adaba273a566a8c3b204022f2b66410?d=identicon&s=25 Ashley Williams (Guest)
on 2008-12-24 11:22
(Received via mailing list)
If speed is so important, why not use Java, or even C++?

Granted Ruby 1.8.x isn't especially fast, and Rails doesn't help, but
its
not the only thing to consider! ;)

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Oroku Saki <
Ec5a599777854c540fd102ef4691fe10?d=identicon&s=25 Rimantas Liubertas (Guest)
on 2008-12-24 11:27
(Received via mailing list)
> If I was walking through the desert, I'd rather have a bottle of water
> (easy, just open and drink) strapped to my back than a giant cactus
> (hard, crush and collect, then drink), and I'd rather have both of my
> legs to run faster than to have gangrene in one of my thighs and hobble
> at 1/7th of the speed. Thought you might like the same. Wouldn't you?

The point is, that there are many more components involved (DB, network
latency,
caching, etc., etc.) that the fact that some ruby python script runs 7
times
faster than Ruby script does not mean much in web context.

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/
9a2a53db8e9b4476038c94a64b32833f?d=identicon&s=25 Ryan Bigg (ryan-bigg)
on 2008-12-24 12:55
(Received via mailing list)
Smells like a troll.

Types like a troll.

Must be a troll.

Nice try though.
3a67e1df3c51d0da94c9198bbfb45be9?d=identicon&s=25 Quon (Guest)
on 2008-12-24 15:20
(Received via mailing list)
Is this a spam?

On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Oroku Saki <
A8f22f20d80a6e694631d0e2346127f0?d=identicon&s=25 Oroku Saki (orokusaki)
on 2008-12-24 16:55
Why are you guys so upset. I thought that you would be excited about a
framework similar to rails that's easy to use. I know most of the people
here are like me in that they don't have a degree in programming but
love the stuff. By the way, I think that web2py has caching too. It says
that you can choose between "memcache", "ram caching", and "disk
caching". It says you cab do that to your models, controllers, and
views. It also does this thing called "compiling" the code into byte
code so that the programs run faster in production. I figured that's
where I'd draw the line, but it was actually easy. I finished creating a
contoller and hit save. The I clicked "compile", and then "pack", and it
gave me the whole app zipped up so I could put it on a different server.
Somebody here should try it and tell me what they think. I thought it
was really easy, but there might he some gotchas that I didn't know
about. I'm less than a year into programming outside of PHP.
A91bd6cef23eb3516245a092e196c4da?d=identicon&s=25 Maurício Linhares (mauricio)
on 2008-12-24 17:01
(Received via mailing list)
Ok ok ok.

Go on to another mailing list, no one here is interested on this.

Got it?

-
Maurício Linhares
http://alinhavado.wordpress.com/ (pt-br) | http://blog.codevader.com/
(en)



On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Oroku Saki
A8f22f20d80a6e694631d0e2346127f0?d=identicon&s=25 Oroku Saki (orokusaki)
on 2008-12-24 17:08
Hey Maricio,

Alright, but you should change the spelling of your name here. It looks
like rails doesn't support Unicode.
F3cf74d456662cf50cafa74433a83e5b?d=identicon&s=25 Brian Williams (Guest)
on 2008-12-24 17:43
(Received via mailing list)
alrighty then, adios


On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Maurício Linhares <
Dd2d775dea75b381edb1bbf0600a0907?d=identicon&s=25 Marnen Laibow-Koser (marnen)
on 2008-12-24 17:52
(Received via mailing list)
On Dec 24, 11:01 am, "Maurício Linhares" <mauricio.linha...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Ok ok ok.
>
> Go on to another mailing list, no one here is interested on this.
>
> Got it?

Please cool it.  You don't speak for the whole list.  I for one am
*very* interested in this.  Make no mistake -- I love Rails, and I
think the Ruby language in general is fantastic, but if -- and it's a
big if -- another framework and/or language can do the job better, I
will drop Rails like a hot potato.

Sure, the original post was slightly trollish, but it's disconcerting
to me that no one is really responding to the original post --
everyone just seems to be burying their heads in the sand and saying
"go away".  Surely we can do better than that.  Besides, where is it
written that one can't be interested in other frameworks and
languages?  Or did I blunder into a cult when I adopted Rails? :)

You know, I'll bet the response would have been completely different
if the original post had said "Smalltalk" instead of "Python" and
"Seaside" instead of "Web2Py", and been otherwise identical.  Food for
thought...


>
> -
> Maurício Linhareshttp://alinhavado.wordpress.com/(pt-br) |http://blog.codevader.com/(en)

Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
marnen@marnen.org
http://www.marnen.org
A91bd6cef23eb3516245a092e196c4da?d=identicon&s=25 Maurício Linhares (mauricio)
on 2008-12-24 18:31
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:52 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser <marnen@marnen.org>
wrote:
>
> Sure, the original post was slightly trollish, but it's disconcerting
> to me that no one is really responding to the original post --
> everyone just seems to be burying their heads in the sand and saying
> "go away".  Surely we can do better than that.  Besides, where is it
> written that one can't be interested in other frameworks and
> languages?  Or did I blunder into a cult when I adopted Rails? :)

At least I can not. I have no interest to discuss anything with a
troll, be it a Smalltalk, Ruby, Python, Java, Self, Erlang, it doesn't
matter.

And I do think no one is responding to the original post 'cos it's
useless. He isn't interested in discussing anything, he just want to
prove his point, whaterver it might be. And i guess we have better
things to do (and real questions and discussions do answer to) and to
feed a troll.

-
Maurício Linhares
http://alinhavado.wordpress.com/ (pt-br) | http://blog.codevader.com/
(en)
Dd2d775dea75b381edb1bbf0600a0907?d=identicon&s=25 Marnen Laibow-Koser (marnen)
on 2008-12-24 19:02
(Received via mailing list)
On Dec 24, 12:30 pm, "Maurício Linhares" <mauricio.linha...@gmail.com>
wrote:
[...]
> And I do think no one is responding to the original post 'cos it's
> useless. He isn't interested in discussing anything, he just want to
> prove his point, whaterver it might be.

I get a very different impression from his posts.  It appears that
he's interested in actual discussion, but everyone else told him to go
away, so he did.

> And i guess we have better
> things to do (and real questions and discussions do answer to) and to
> feed a troll.

Agreed.  But I don't think Oroku is a troll.

>
> -
> Maurício Linhareshttp://alinhavado.wordpress.com/(pt-br) |http://blog.codevader.com/(en)

Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
marnen@marnen.org
http://www.marnen.org
A8f22f20d80a6e694631d0e2346127f0?d=identicon&s=25 Oroku Saki (orokusaki)
on 2008-12-24 20:02
Thanks for understanding, those that did. To those who didn't, I'm sorry
I came across as smug. I was just excited. If really interested in
hearing some of your opponions about the framework after trying it. I've
tried it to the best of my ability, but my only knowledge is of shopping
carts and cms. Because of my limited knowledge I emailed the creator.
His name is Massimo, and said "the bug tracking feature is great be
keeping all errors logged in order so you can do all your debugging at
one time, but how do I know that none if the errors are from me and not
internal?". Hlis response was "the framework is stable and there aren't
currently any known bugs". I trust him, but it'd still be nice to have
third party confirmation.
A8f22f20d80a6e694631d0e2346127f0?d=identicon&s=25 Oroku Saki (orokusaki)
on 2008-12-24 21:32
I looked the guy up who crated the framework. He actually has a PhD and
he's a computer science professor at DePaul University. I'm almost
completely sold on this (after only a couple weeks of use though).
Bee69cfed999cd13e3bff73d472a39ee?d=identicon&s=25 Hassan Schroeder (Guest)
on 2008-12-24 21:37
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Oroku Saki
<rails-mailing-list@andreas-s.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks for understanding, those that did. To those who didn't, I'm sorry
> I came across as smug. I was just excited. If really interested in
> hearing some of your opponions about the framework after trying it.

Then I'd suggest asking this on a Python(-related) mailing list, or the
list/forum (assuming there is one) for this new framework.  :-)

--
Hassan Schroeder ------------------------ hassan.schroeder@gmail.com
A8f22f20d80a6e694631d0e2346127f0?d=identicon&s=25 Oroku Saki (orokusaki)
on 2008-12-24 21:41
I would, but then I'm afraid I'd get religious answers, instead of
facts. Just like people are defensive here of their framework, and most
would claim that it's the best, same goes with another framework. I want
to see unbiased opinions of it.
F5b3c1ebfb2e9fc5f67bb48b119f6054?d=identicon&s=25 Randy Kramer (Guest)
on 2008-12-25 01:34
(Received via mailing list)
On Wednesday 24 December 2008 11:01 am, Maurício Linhares wrote:
> Go on to another mailing list, no one here is interested on this.

Speak for yourself, please.  I'm always (well, usually) in alternate
ways that might be better (or have some aspects that might be better
(than whatever).

Randy Kramer
--
I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I created a video
instead.--with apologies to Cicero, et.al.
9a2a53db8e9b4476038c94a64b32833f?d=identicon&s=25 Ryan Bigg (ryan-bigg)
on 2008-12-25 02:33
(Received via mailing list)
On 25/12/2008, at 7:02 AM, Oroku Saki wrote:

>
> I looked the guy up who crated the framework. He actually has a PhD
> and
> he's a computer science professor at DePaul University.

Big. Fucking. Deal.
A8f22f20d80a6e694631d0e2346127f0?d=identicon&s=25 Oroku Saki (orokusaki)
on 2008-12-25 04:01
Oh, it's just that somebody who has spent 8-10 years taking programming
courses, and teaches 5 level programming  tends to probably know a bit
more than your average railbird who hasn't done anything important. The
cart API that I use is insane and the guy who built it is the same way
(17 years of programming, and a masters).
46475f064c9a801112a805d35be1cda4?d=identicon&s=25 nathan.ms (Guest)
on 2008-12-25 04:30
(Received via mailing list)
I am very interested in and highly recommend the manual (a pdf is
available for $12). How did you find a shopping cart API?

On Dec 24, 7:01 pm, Oroku Saki <rails-mailing-l...@andreas-s.net>
9a2a53db8e9b4476038c94a64b32833f?d=identicon&s=25 Ryan Bigg (ryan-bigg)
on 2008-12-25 04:32
(Received via mailing list)
>
> Oh, it's just that somebody who has spent 8-10 years taking
> programming
> courses,

Probably for Java or C.

> and teaches 5 level programming

Probably Java or C.

> tends to probably know a bit

About Java or C.

>  your average railbird who hasn't done anything important.

Sounds like a troll. Just look at all the great rails applications on
the rubyonrails.org site. Clearly someone who has very, very little
experience in the Rails world has written your posts. You probably got
frustrated at the fact a method like logged_in? didn't work because
you didn't include the module.

Away with thee, troll.
A8f22f20d80a6e694631d0e2346127f0?d=identicon&s=25 Oroku Saki (orokusaki)
on 2008-12-25 04:51
@nathan

I bought the book. It's really helpful. The free ones in the site to a
great job too but the 12 dollar one was more up to date, and better
organized. I created a blog with image uploading and displaying in about
30 minutes using that as a reference, and I'm a big noob. As far as cart
API, I can't really talk about it other than to say it's built in j2ee
and the templates are in Velocity. You can build a dynamic catalog of
products in about 10 minutes from your own HTML template. If you'd like
something close with a little of some of the same freedom, you can try
shopify(built in RoR).

@nathan:

I'd be more concerned that you even have to import the model in the
first place (so much for convention over configuration). Web2Py does
that for you, using the off-the-wall assumption that if you make a model
you intend on using it.
F48118fe74b0c7f6fd82a0ee422fa34e?d=identicon&s=25 snacktime (Guest)
on 2008-12-25 05:15
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Oroku Saki <
rails-mailing-list@andreas-s.net> wrote:

>
> Oh, it's just that somebody who has spent 8-10 years taking programming
> courses, and teaches 5 level programming  tends to probably know a bit
> more than your average railbird who hasn't done anything important. The
> cart API that I use is insane and the guy who built it is the same way
> (17 years of programming, and a masters).
>
>
Actually, in my experience it's some of the best educated that I've seen
write the worst code.  The absolute worst was actually a teacher at mit.
He
knew the languages just fine, but his real world coding was just awful.
And
some of the best developers I know never graduated from college.

Chris
A8f22f20d80a6e694631d0e2346127f0?d=identicon&s=25 Oroku Saki (orokusaki)
on 2008-12-25 05:55
@chris:

Just so you know, it's not how well somebody knows code, or what
language they specialize in. Great programmers are great because of
their big picture knowledge that makes them a good programmer. The
code/language is just the means they use to achive what they want. That
big picture that you learn from real programming experience. Not from
online tutorials and code snippets.
297e4fff87d25780ff6462e4ce729025?d=identicon&s=25 Chris Poldier (chrispoldier)
on 2008-12-26 21:44
Attachment: admin-4.jpg (90 KB)
I tried Web2Py with some code snippets after reading this post the other
day. It actually was really easy.

There is a problem though. It's written in pure Python, and even lets
you use Python code in the views, or use the template language (which
ever you prefer). That might be good for a Python programmer, but I'm
not used to the indentation requirements. I did find out, however that
the views don't require the indentation since code is encapsulated
inside of {{write code here}} or {{=variable}}. I'm not in the mood to
learn another language just yet, but I am afraid that Rails will jump
the shark with Meeb.

Here's a picture of the browser-based admin (where you can write all of
your code (no opening files if you don't want to, but it does create all
the typical file structures that you'd expect when you use this admin.
So you can create everything in the admin, and then edit files in a text
editor if you want. the admin does do text formatting though, with tabs,
and code highlighting.
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