Forum: Ruby Australia or Canada, which one is the best country for a gee

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7595ff5e64d9a309c29932d106959973?d=identicon&s=25 Houman Dunnil (Guest)
on 2007-07-27 02:21
(Received via mailing list)
Hello folks,

Sorry for this *too off topic* email, but I think you can help me as I
believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've
ever seen.

I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).

What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better
programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
things like these...

Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message,
- Houman Dunnil
1c0cd550766a3ee3e4a9c495926e4603?d=identicon&s=25 John Joyce (Guest)
on 2007-07-27 03:27
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 26, 2007, at 7:21 PM, Houman Dunnil wrote:

> programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
> things like these...
>
> Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message,
> - Houman Dunnil
>
Depends on the city.
Ff9e18f0699bf079f1fc91c8d4506438?d=identicon&s=25 James Britt (Guest)
on 2007-07-27 05:07
(Received via mailing list)
Houman Dunnil wrote:

> What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better
> programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
> things like these...

Which ever one has Silicon Valley.

:)


--
James Britt

"A principle or axiom is of no value without the rules for applying it."
   - Len Bullard
3bb23e7770680ea44a2d79e6d10daaed?d=identicon&s=25 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-27 05:52
(Received via mailing list)
Houman Dunnil wrote:
> programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
> things like these...
>
> Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message,
> - Houman Dunnil
>
>

Well ...

1. If you don't mind my asking, where do you live now and what's wrong
with it specific to being a hacker?

2. I suppose things have changed since then, but back in the mid 1980s I
worked for a company that had a couple of offices in Canada. Their two
sales/support analysts both quit in a six month period, and I filled in
for a couple of years, commuting up from Maryland when necessary. At one
point the subject of me transferring up there permanently was raised.

It turns out that Canada is very protective of their native talent. I
could fill in on a temporary basis, of course, but they had to advertise
the position for a full year and interview every Canadian citizen that
met the qualifications of the position. Only if they couldn't fill the
position with a Canadian citizen within a year would I have been able to
 become a permanent resident.

I know there are Canadians on the list who migrated there from the USA
-- is it still that way, or have things changed?

3. I've never been to Australia so I don't know what the situation is
there.
D812408537ac3a0fa2fec96eb8811559?d=identicon&s=25 John Carter (johncarter)
on 2007-07-27 07:51
(Received via mailing list)
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, Houman Dunnil wrote:

> I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
> one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).

New Zealand.

Well, not entirely, salaries are less here, everything is smaller,...

But is a beautiful good wee country with outsized (relative to its
very small population speaking) high tech sector.


John Carter                             Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
Tait Electronics                        Fax   : (64)(3) 359 4632
PO Box 1645 Christchurch                Email : john.carter@tait.co.nz
New Zealand
6fb80043d9fb5ee45e45f6f1fd1800e1?d=identicon&s=25 Jesper (Guest)
on 2007-07-27 08:04
(Received via mailing list)
Hello,


> I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
> one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).

I don't know about Canada, but Australia is the best place in the world,
period.

As for hacker factor... Well, Perth in WA is one of the few cities in
the
world that has a person developing hardware for the C64, which IMHO is a
sign or hacker-friendly climate! Ok, that's a bit far-fetched, but
still:
Australia is amazing.

(for the record, I'm not Australian)

/ J
9d1f5d2d9de70bd9a934f557dc95a406?d=identicon&s=25 Daniel ----- (liquid)
on 2007-07-27 08:09
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/27/07, Jesper <jesper@exilregeringen.se> wrote:
>
>
> Australia is amazing.
>
> (for the record, I'm not Australian)
>
> / J


Here Here
(I am :) )
83b513cf8a93f6e9307b53db1b1880a8?d=identicon&s=25 John H. Lindsay (Guest)
on 2007-07-27 22:25
(Received via mailing list)
James Britt wrote:
> Houman Dunnil wrote:
>
>> What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better
>> programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
>> things like these...
>
> Which ever one has Silicon Valley.
.....

Aha!  Canada.  Ottawa (including the part called Kanata) is
sometimes called 'Silicon Valley North'.  (Note: bias declared;
I'm a Canadian).

John.
391f9b787cdc12aa2c179713f5103e3a?d=identicon&s=25 Ilan Berci (iberci)
on 2007-07-27 23:50
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

>
> It turns out that Canada is very protective of their native talent. I
> could fill in on a temporary basis, of course, but they had to advertise
> the position for a full year and interview every Canadian citizen that
> met the qualifications of the position. Only if they couldn't fill the
> position with a Canadian citizen within a year would I have been able to
>  become a permanent resident.
>

It's quite ironic as many Canadian developers hold the same view when
working at positions within the US.  I was a Canadian developer working
in the states from 1994-2002 under various visas and I often had to
justify my position to immigration officials from the stance as to why
an American couldn't fulfill the requirement.

Secondly, when applying for an H-1 from a TN, a posting of the job
requirement (for my job at that given time) had to be posted within at
least 3 public venues in order to allow an American to compete for said
position.

I don't want to give the impression that I am sore about this, I believe
every country has the right to protect it's work force.

ilan
3bb23e7770680ea44a2d79e6d10daaed?d=identicon&s=25 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-28 03:26
(Received via mailing list)
Ilan Berci wrote:

> It's quite ironic as many Canadian developers hold the same view when
> working at positions within the US.  I was a Canadian developer working
> in the states from 1994-2002 under various visas and I often had to
> justify my position to immigration officials from the stance as to why
> an American couldn't fulfill the requirement.
Yes ... another irony is that the Regional Manager my boss reported to
was Canadian and had the same problem in Boston. :)

>
> Secondly, when applying for an H-1 from a TN, a posting of the job
> requirement (for my job at that given time) had to be posted within at
> least 3 public venues in order to allow an American to compete for said
> position.
>
> I don't want to give the impression that I am sore about this, I believe
> every country has the right to protect it's work force.

It's not really protecting anything in the long run, but as Keynes said,
"in the long run, we are all dead." :) I wonder how it is where the OP
lives.
3bb23e7770680ea44a2d79e6d10daaed?d=identicon&s=25 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-28 03:29
(Received via mailing list)
John H. Lindsay wrote:
> Aha!  Canada.  Ottawa (including the part called Kanata) is sometimes
> called 'Silicon Valley North'.  (Note: bias declared;
> I'm a Canadian).
>
> John.
That's where they wanted me to move -- Ottawa. The other thing Ottawa
has going for it is that the lakes and ponds freeze up solid enough to
drive trucks on. :)

Wait a minute ... is that a feature or a bug?
D86ec78a7a258246684d15e09e51a170?d=identicon&s=25 Sharon Phillips (Guest)
on 2007-07-28 03:41
(Received via mailing list)
> I don't know about Canada, but Australia is the best place in the
> world, period.
>
> As for hacker factor... Well, Perth in WA is one of the few cities
> in the world that has a person developing hardware for the C64,
> which IMHO is a sign or hacker-friendly climate! Ok, that's a bit
> far-fetched, but still: Australia is amazing.
>
> (for the record, I'm not Australian)
I am though, and from Perth too but working in the capital for a few
years.
I'd thus like to say, without any bias whatsoever, that Perth is
pretty good. It's also a bit warmer than Canada :)

Jesper, Any Ruby based work in Perth I can look forward to when I
return?

Cheers,
Dave
Cb7c371146108bd4abc3c00e20ad1137?d=identicon&s=25 Mark T (Guest)
on 2007-07-28 04:46
(Received via mailing list)
Wow.
This is such a good question.
Do you actually have to go to a country to hack/program/work there?
Is it a matter of payment? Lifestyle?
Attitude?
Business opportunity?
Sydney is a city of real-estate-first.
Predominantly, if you do not have this as 1st attitude, you do not fit
in.
There is a predominance of market-obedience in Sydney.
Not sure if the two above are/how linked.
So Ruby is mostly Rails-driven in Sydney.
Less so in Melbourne.
More rain in Melbourne, less real estate frenzy.
Better contemplation environment. It appears (not from experience).
Academically, ANU in Canberra is #1. Rational atmosphere. A capital
built between population centres. (Not good IMHO).
All up the coast there are pockets of excellence.
People who can afford to make a small tera-firma-island & live there
can get good value.
In-cost has risen the recent years as there are some delightful spots.
Canada has a broader attitude base, It appears (also, not from
experience).
Aus. is in the southern Hemisphere, takes longer to get here.
Travel in-out can cause 'air-sickness'... http://www.toxicairlines.com/
It is both a dumping ground for obsolete stuff & a testing ground for
new stuff.
We are just about to leave a ten-year experiment of our
government-induced fiscal policy/philosophy of "Financially Fittest
via Financial Darwinism".
As you get to know the legacy of this you will find that most
'services' are now 'authorities'.
Most of these authorities are under-funded as the privatization has
left them 'leaner'.
The private contractors who have taken the punt are under the rules of
basic arithmetic & cannot spend on speculation. So services are
sometimes non-existent.
(Courses in Tafe an example).
Core infrastructure suffers from privatization syndrome. Most bulk
produce is trucked privately now. Trains stop at Orange in the Blue
Mountains.
Most of government action is knee-jerk. Out water for example
triggered an emergency response. Even when this gov. has been in
'position' to know for over ten years.
Indigenous affairs. Shameful.
Better weather than London.
Not many mountains. Mostly desert really.
Wherein lies one of the most fascinating conjunction of opposites.
The desert is an amazingly creative place.

Later,

Markt
47df9cfb356c3ee0523cc3571b169730?d=identicon&s=25 Kenneth McDonald (Guest)
on 2007-07-28 05:23
(Received via mailing list)
It'll depend completely on the city and surrounding area. Canada is much
closer to the high-tech stuff in the US. But of course, if you can speak
the appropriate language(s), Australia is much closer to the high-tech
stuff in Asia.

As has been mentioned, there's a big (in Canadian terms) concentration
of high-tech around Ottawa. However, the real center of Canadian
cultural and commercial activity is Toronto (no, I'm not a Torontonian,
it's just the truth). If the high Quebec taxes are not a deterrent, I'd
suggest that Montreal is probably the optimal combination of high-tech
opportunity, cultural amenities, and general quality of life. Other
things being equal, it's probably where I'd go were I to move back to
Canada, Toronto would be a close second.

Vancouver is supposed to be a very lovely city; it isn't. I've lived
there, and architecturally Vancouver is somewhere between bland nouveau
West Coast and drop-dead graveled-yard ugly. The _surroundings_ are
beautiful, but even then, be prepared for very damp, gray, depressing
winters--if sunshine is important to you, don't move to Vancouver.

Canada's general social attitudes are much more European than American
(and the general Canadian attitude towards many current US policies is
probably best described as somewhere between amusement and disgust), so
if you're a strong libertarian-type hacker, you may not like that aspect
of Canada. (Personally, I like it quite a bit.)

Australia will be warmer. _Much_ warmer. And sunnier.


Hope this helps,
Ken
C9c7a65848f13e2b1a226bbe43bc3672?d=identicon&s=25 Pete Yandell (pete)
on 2007-07-28 05:35
(Received via mailing list)
Houman Dunnil wrote:

> I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
> one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).

Not sure of the answer, but I live in Melbourne and can give you a data
point:

The developer community here is excellent. We have monthly Ruby
developer meetings with about 30 people showing up on average, and last
month we had a Ruby Nuby Night which pulled 60-70 people without much
promotion. All the Ruby/Rails contractors here are finding plenty of
work.

Melbourne is also (in my biased opinion) a lovely place to live. Low
cost of living, great culture, brilliant food, mild climate.

So you can mark me down as one happy Ruby developer from Australia. :)

Pete Yandell
http://notahat.com/
C7c955f0f3fabb425c3ef50f0ec695f7?d=identicon&s=25 EricF (Guest)
on 2007-07-28 07:16
(Received via mailing list)
In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.0707271746500.21973@parore.tait.co.nz>, John
Carter <john.carter@tait.co.nz> wrote:
>very small population speaking) high tech sector.
>
>
>John Carter                             Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
>Tait Electronics                        Fax   : (64)(3) 359 4632
>PO Box 1645 Christchurch                Email : john.carter@tait.co.nz
>New Zealand

How would someone be authorized to work in NZ if not a citizen?

Eric
Cb7c371146108bd4abc3c00e20ad1137?d=identicon&s=25 Mark T (Guest)
on 2007-07-28 09:05
(Received via mailing list)
You would need a Virtual Working Visa.
Which, as far as I know do not yet exist.
If you're thinking of a Virtual Working contract.

I will soon ask an accountant if there is a known way to handle
off-shore efforts.
You can declare income in your tax, money paid into an account would
be 'visible'.
There may be a threshold for 'offshore contracting', if this is the term
in use.

Just that I'd been wondering on this topic parallel to post.

Markt
Aee77dba395ece0a04c688b05b07cd63?d=identicon&s=25 Daniel Berger (Guest)
on 2007-07-28 21:53
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 27, 9:22 pm, Kenneth McDonald
<kenneth.m.mcdon...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> opportunity, cultural amenities, and general quality of life. Other
> (and the general Canadian attitude towards many current US policies is
> probably best described as somewhere between amusement and disgust), so
> if you're a strong libertarian-type hacker, you may not like that aspect
> of Canada. (Personally, I like it quite a bit.)
>
> Australia will be warmer. _Much_ warmer. And sunnier.

Plus, you know, the beaches.

*nudge* *nudge*

Dan
8f057ce00aabd2cd9829645a5da25444?d=identicon&s=25 Graham Menhennitt (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 01:46
(Received via mailing list)
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 11:45:23 +0900, "Mark T" <paradisaeidae@gmail.com>
wrote:

>More rain in Melbourne

This is wrong!
C7c955f0f3fabb425c3ef50f0ec695f7?d=identicon&s=25 EricF (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 02:26
(Received via mailing list)
Mark,

Thanks, but I meant what if I were to move there? I'm American. In the
US, you
need a visa to work legally if not a citizen.

Mentioned the subject to my wife this morning. She wasn't interested in
moving
to NZ. :-(

Eric

In article
<1e3e0f820707280005y512ee822t4f8cb4c3f9ffb8ba@mail.gmail.com>,
D685bdcede73457413f7d43237d3fc8c?d=identicon&s=25 Roy Britten (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 05:17
(Received via mailing list)
> How would someone be authorized to work in NZ if not a citizen?

A work permit is easily obtained if you work in IT and have a job
offer from an NZ company.

Official government information at
http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/work/
"In this section you will find everything you need to apply for a visa
and permit to work, temporarily or permanently, in New Zealand."

As a general rule, people move here for the lifestyle, not for the
income.
Aafa8848c4b764f080b1b31a51eab73d?d=identicon&s=25 Phlip (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 05:25
(Received via mailing list)
Roy Britten wrote:

> A work permit is easily obtained if you work in IT and have a job
> offer from an NZ company.
>
> Official government information at
> http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/work/
> "In this section you will find everything you need to apply for a visa
> and permit to work, temporarily or permanently, in New Zealand."
>
> As a general rule, people move here for the lifestyle, not for the income.

May I ask why my former colleague who moved to Australia blew me off
when I
suggested he get me onto his next project? Was he just being polite when
he
claimed Oz has strict immigration policies, or is Oz that different from
NZ?
D685bdcede73457413f7d43237d3fc8c?d=identicon&s=25 Roy Britten (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 05:52
(Received via mailing list)
On 29/07/07, Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> wrote:
> May I ask why my former colleague who moved to Australia blew me off when I
> suggested he get me onto his next project? Was he just being polite when he
> claimed Oz has strict immigration policies, or is Oz that different from NZ?

You'd have to ask your friend.

NZ is to Australia as Canada is to the USA.
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20050421
Aafa8848c4b764f080b1b31a51eab73d?d=identicon&s=25 Phlip (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 07:06
(Received via mailing list)
> You'd have to ask your friend.
>
> NZ is to Australia as Canada is to the USA.

No need; that's what we meant!

> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20050421

You been a fan longer than me...
C7c955f0f3fabb425c3ef50f0ec695f7?d=identicon&s=25 EricF (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 07:45
(Received via mailing list)
In article
<ea7284a10707282016x3d2042aar8232bda488bed773@mail.gmail.com>, "Roy
Britten" <roy.britten@gmail.com> wrote:
>As a general rule, people move here for the lifestyle, not for the income.
>
Thanks!

Now back to Ruby. ;-)

Eric
Aafa8848c4b764f080b1b31a51eab73d?d=identicon&s=25 Phlip (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 08:05
(Received via mailing list)
EricF wrote:

> Now back to Ruby. ;-)

IIRC that's what my former colleague and mentor/protoge was doing in
Oz...
04ac594e52733356cec21d8ecf99c0b1?d=identicon&s=25 Tim Bray (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 08:23
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 26, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Houman Dunnil wrote:

> I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
> one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).
>
> What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better
> programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
> things like these...

I'm Canadian, lived in several places there, have friends & relatives
in Oz, spent lots of time there.  Currently I live in Vancouver but
have been considering relocating to Melbourne for quite a while now.
Vancouver & Melbourne regularly both place in top-5 best places to
live in the world lists, so it's not a slam dunk.  As regards Canada,
it depends what kind of high-tech.  If it's telecom, Ottawa.  If it's
finance, Toronto.  If it's Web2.0 stuff, Vancouver.  If being in
California's timezone is important, Vancouver.  If it's fun & good
food you're after, Montreal or Vancouver.  I wish Vancouver had more
winter sun but I just can't take 5 months of snow on the ground, so I
don't really have a choice.  These days, get a high-tech job offer
and you can get into the country, no prob.

Any big Australian city is going to be a lot warmer, but then there
are the spikes to 40ºC and the high winds and the awful, horrible,
bugs.  On the other hand, the people are awfully nice and the wine is
better.  My impression is that the Aussie IT scene really does suffer
from being an 8+-hour flight to anywhere, and a 15+-hour flight to
any other tech center.  But these days, you can find a Ruby tribe
wherever you are.

  -T
E6a1fe85299e663566dd1ea7d4f74e76?d=identicon&s=25 Max Muermann (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 12:37
(Received via mailing list)
<snip>

> But these days, you can find a Ruby tribe
> wherever you are.
>

Australia has a great community. True, things tend to be mostly driven
by Rails - but there's plenty of Ruby mixed in.

We recently ran RailsCamp07 in the bush north of Sydney, which was
hands down the best geek experience I've had.

http://toolmantim.com/article/2007/7/17/rails_camp...
http://www.flickr.com/groups/rails-camp/pool/

The community is truly outstanding.

Now for the hair in the soup...

The IT industry in Australia is much, much smaller than most other
countries (Australia has a little over 20 million people). It also
seems that Australian companies have over the last few years developed
a regrettable aversion to any sort of risk, which now translates into
a reluctance in businesses to evaluate Ruby and Rails for their
projects.

There is quite a bit of work around for Rails developers, but
Australian rates seem low compared to pretty much anywhere else.

I've been living in Australia for almost eight years now and it is an
amazing country, lots of very friendly people and beautiful landscapes
and beaches.

--max
http://synaphy.com/blog
http://whatsnextapp.com
D86ec78a7a258246684d15e09e51a170?d=identicon&s=25 Sharon Phillips (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 13:10
(Received via mailing list)
> Any big Australian city is going to be a lot warmer, but then there
> are the spikes to 40ºC and the high winds and the awful, horrible,
> bugs.

Awful horrible bugs?
Not sure about that, but we do have lots of imaginative ways to get
killed. No bears to eat you here (Like Canada?), but here's my very
quick non-researched list of ways you (as a tourist) are likely to
die in Australia.
Drowning at Bondi et al. There's some staggering number of people
drown each year on Australian beaches. Most of them tourists.
Eaten by a croc. In the north, when they say don't enter the water,
they mean it.
Eaten by a Shark. Not too common actually.
Stung by a jellyfish. We have ones that'll kill you in minutes.
You stood on a stone fish. These lie in the sand in the shallows and
have a deadly spike in their head.
Bitten by a snake. Of the ten most deadly snakes in the world, most
live in Australia.
Bitten by a spider. You're less likely to die, but more likely to get
bitten. Quite common (relative to other means in this list) in metro
areas.
Stung by an octopus. We have a cute little one with glowing blue
rings. Deadly.
Stranded in the desert. People don't seem to appreciate the size of
the country (but those from the US probably do. We're a lot smaller
than you) and it's surprising the number of people who hire a 4WD and
try to cross one of our deserts.
Lost in the Blue Mountains. Beautiful, but take care.
Falling asleep whilst driving. Surprisingly, this is a big killer.

Ways you're not likely to die:
In a terrorist attack. Look out bad guys, We have the magnets and
we're alert, but not alarmed.
(Our Gov't too has been spinning the terror thing for all it's worth.
You (in the US) got your constitution neutered. We got fridge magnets.)

Cheers,
Dave
3bb23e7770680ea44a2d79e6d10daaed?d=identicon&s=25 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 19:37
(Received via mailing list)
Sharon Phillips wrote:
> Ways you're not likely to die:
> In a terrorist attack. Look out bad guys, We have the magnets and we're
> alert, but not alarmed.
> (Our Gov't too has been spinning the terror thing for all it's worth.
> You (in the US) got your constitution neutered. We got fridge magnets.)

Is there a link to the fridge magnets somewhere? :)

Wait a minute!! What about the drop bears??
Ce8b03e5750097942c58e12b46724312?d=identicon&s=25 Giles Bowkett (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 20:12
(Received via mailing list)
For what it's worth, there's a company which was organizing, a little
while back, a sort of Rails programmers' world tour work group. The
idea was, they'd get together a group of good RoR hackers, get them
oriented in the company, gelling as a team, etc., and then put them on
a plane for Thailand, after which they'd kind of hop around the
Pacific for a while, maybe the Caribbean as well, working out of cheap
but peaceful backpacker tourist spots for about a year.

Kind of a tangent, but relevant to the general question of working
with Ruby worldwide. I don't know if they ever actually got it off the
ground.

--
Giles Bowkett

Blog: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
Portfolio: http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
3bb23e7770680ea44a2d79e6d10daaed?d=identicon&s=25 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-29 20:28
(Received via mailing list)
Giles Bowkett wrote:
> ground.
>
Hmmm ... how about a small group of RoR hackers that just works out of a
well-equipped airliner and lands only to refuel and goof off? :)
Aee77dba395ece0a04c688b05b07cd63?d=identicon&s=25 Daniel Berger (Guest)
on 2007-07-30 00:23
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 29, 12:12 pm, "Giles Bowkett" <gil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ground.
They landed in Thailand, discovered Soy Cowboy, and were never heard
from again....

Dan
D86ec78a7a258246684d15e09e51a170?d=identicon&s=25 Sharon Phillips (Guest)
on 2007-07-30 00:59
(Received via mailing list)
>> Ways you're not likely to die:
>> In a terrorist attack. Look out bad guys, We have the magnets and
>> we're
>> alert, but not alarmed.
>> (Our Gov't too has been spinning the terror thing for all it's worth.
>> You (in the US) got your constitution neutered. We got fridge
>> magnets.)
>
> Is there a link to the fridge magnets somewhere? :)
You asked for it:
Anti-terrorism package to arrive in post this week http://
www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s775526.htm
PM: Anti-terror fridge magnets justified http://www.news.com.au/story/
0,23599,22001802-29277,00.html

> Wait a minute!! What about the drop bears??
Ahh... the drop bears. Like I mentioned somewhere previously, the
work I do is classified and so I'm unable to reveal any further
information.
You may, however, find a reference in an add for Bunduberg Rum.

Cheers,
Dave
3bb23e7770680ea44a2d79e6d10daaed?d=identicon&s=25 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-30 02:08
(Received via mailing list)
Sharon Phillips wrote:
> PM: Anti-terror fridge magnets justified
>
Ah ... OK ... I was hoping for pictures of the fridge magnets. I don't
suppose they have drop bears on them. :)
D86ec78a7a258246684d15e09e51a170?d=identicon&s=25 Sharon Phillips (Guest)
on 2007-07-30 02:19
(Received via mailing list)
On 30/07/2007, at 10:06 AM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

>>> Is there a link to the fridge magnets somewhere? :)
>> You may, however, find a reference in an add for Bunduberg Rum.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>>
> Ah ... OK ... I was hoping for pictures of the fridge magnets. I don't
> suppose they have drop bears on them. :)

Some Ying
http://theducks.org/pictures/terrorism-fridge-magnet.jpg

and a bit of Yang
http://www.101usesforajohnhoward.com/2006/09/26/50...
E31f2af2c1f5cde7eff16cafe6fc2d39?d=identicon&s=25 Mark Gallop (Guest)
on 2007-07-30 02:52
(Received via mailing list)
Sharon Phillips wrote:
> and a bit of Yang
> http://www.101usesforajohnhoward.com/2006/09/26/50...
"The refrigerators of Australia are on the front line against
extremists.."

Hahaha, I love that.

Mark
47b1910084592eb77a032bc7d8d1a84e?d=identicon&s=25 Joel VanderWerf (Guest)
on 2007-07-30 03:43
(Received via mailing list)
Mark Gallop wrote:
> Sharon Phillips wrote:
>> and a bit of Yang
>> http://www.101usesforajohnhoward.com/2006/09/26/50...
> "The refrigerators of Australia are on the front line against extremists.."

After reading these links, I think it's a very good idea to "look out
for Australia".

But seriously. We Americans should not laugh. Our poor troops over in
Iraq are so ill-equipped they have to use post-it notes to protect their
refrigerators. Thankyew, yew been great...
7067095abfc198a023c3a9b5e31e67ea?d=identicon&s=25 Peter Booth (Guest)
on 2007-07-30 04:13
(Received via mailing list)
Australia has poisonous sharks, poisonous spiders, poisonous fish,
poisonous jellyfish,
Samba, Cenqua Clover and TimTams.

No contest.
00e3a96684ab390a350b0271e98741d3?d=identicon&s=25 Nshbrown Nshbrown (nshb)
on 2007-07-30 05:07
(Received via mailing list)
Speaking from Canada, I would recommend Vancouver or Toronto. Each has
it's perks besides the technology.

Vancouver has many other conferences and events going on around town
that would appeal to the traveller in you. Minus the smog, humidity in
the summer, and freezing cold in the winter, there isn't much of a
better place to live in Canada than Vancouver.

I lived in Ottawa for a year, which is pretty close to the same
climate as Toronto, and the polarity in weather was enough to want to
make me come back home to Vancouver.

That being said, Vancouver would be on the top of the list.

As for Australia, can't say I have been there before. Nice place, but
as far as my Ruby radar goes, isn't a strong signal.

But, as I glanced over the thread, I did notice a very important
point. With todays technology, you don't need to be local to benefit
from the world community of Ruby. We are increasingly closer by the
day as technology gets more real and more life like with an amplitude
of simplicity that changes the landscape dramatically when making a
decision like this.

Nathaniel.

On 7/26/07, Houman Dunnil <h.dunnil@gmail.com> wrote:
> programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
> things like these...
>
> Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message,
> - Houman Dunnil
>
>


--
Nathaniel Steven Henry Brown

Toll Free: 1-877-446-4647
Vancouver: 604-724-6624
Ff9e18f0699bf079f1fc91c8d4506438?d=identicon&s=25 James Britt (Guest)
on 2007-07-30 05:40
(Received via mailing list)
Nathaniel Brown wrote:

>
> But, as I glanced over the thread, I did notice a very important
> point. With todays technology, you don't need to be local to benefit
> from the world community of Ruby. We are increasingly closer by the
> day as technology gets more real and more life like with an amplitude
> of simplicity that changes the landscape dramatically when making a
> decision like this.


There's something to be said for hanging out in coffee shop with a group
of like-minded geeks hacking on projects.

There's even more to be said for hanging out with dislike-minded geeks
who can keep you form getting insulated in some pristine Ruby cocoon
(you avoid the geek version of the Elvis Effect, where no one around you
will tell you how sucky your favorite language or framework is).

My experiences with the post-meeting dinners for Refresh Phoenix and the
Phoenix Ruby group showed me that in-person chatting bandwidth can't be
beat.


--
James Britt

www.ruby-doc.org             - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com            - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
www.risingtidesoftware.com   - Wicked Cool Coding
0c00d644de3b8bb2f655908c79af25a5?d=identicon&s=25 Matt Lawrence (Guest)
on 2007-07-30 05:42
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

> Hmmm ... how about a small group of RoR hackers that just works out of a
> well-equipped airliner and lands only to refuel and goof off? :)

I was think more of something like this:
http://www.exec-yachtsales.com/10130.htm

And I'm not joking.

-- Matt
It's not what I know that counts.
It's what I can remember in time to use.
Cb7c371146108bd4abc3c00e20ad1137?d=identicon&s=25 Mark T (Guest)
on 2007-07-30 06:02
(Received via mailing list)
Good thought-direction!

> I was think more of something like this:
> http://www.exec-yachtsales.com/10130.htm

Good size boat/ship.
Great price.
A lot of work to get it tidy.
Floating is a good start though!

MarkT
655d6e0d3d21759e6894111c61b3b5e8?d=identicon&s=25 Armin Armbruster (swabianeagle)
on 2007-07-31 17:33
Hi,

can't speak for Australia, never been there.
As far as Canada goes:
I moved to Waterloo, Ontario six years ago and enjoy it here.
Lot's of High-Tech industry around (RIM for example), really excellent
University (UW was the only Canadian University visited by Bill Gates on
a campaign to recrute developers for Microsoft in 2006). Lot's of
startup companies as well. Lot's of insurance companies (if you like
financial software).

In terms of quality of living. Housing (although not cheap and prices
are rising) is much more affordable than Toronto or Vancouver. At the
same time Kitchener-Waterloo is big enough (>300k) to provide lot's of
good restaurants, theaters, sport facilities. And if you really need the
big city experience from time to time, Toronto is only a one hour car
ride away. Also there are 3 international airports within a one hour
drive (Kitchener, Toronto, Hamilton).

The downsides:
- poor public transportation system --> hard to get around without a
car, unless you are a hard-core cyclist, especially in the winter.
- winters are cold and long (on the other hand a nice crisp sunny winter
day can be very enjoyable).
- summers can be hot and humid, although this year has been pretty good
so far.

Just my $0.02.

Armin



Houman Dunnil wrote:
> Hello folks,
>
> Sorry for this *too off topic* email, but I think you can help me as I
> believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've
> ever seen.
>
> I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
> one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).
>
> What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better
> programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
> things like these...
>
> Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message,
> - Houman Dunnil
This topic is locked and can not be replied to.