Avi, its not that we are saying that you are not sincere in what you say
(even though the language you use makes my skin crawl) or that you dont
help motivated people get to grips with programming. The issue for us is
that few, if any, employers will be swayed by a candidate that went on a
course. Rails, much like Perl and PHP in this respect, is something that
a
programmer will have taught themselves because they were interested in
it
(rather than a mandatory module on their degree) and so the culture
around
it is of the self motivated, self taught programmer. Most of the people
here perhaps, like myself, read the DrDobbs article on Ruby and started
leaning Ruby or saw an article on a website that interested them enough
to
see what was in it.
Waving certificates around like it means something is the province on 9
to
5 Java programmers who took up programming because they heard you could
earn lots of money working for banks. If they had the chops they would
have
taken up accounting or law but they are either not smart enough or too
lazy. These people collect certificates like talismans in lue of actual
practical experience. You might not remember how it was with people
becoming Microsoft Certified ‘this and that’ but not having the faintest
idea as to how computers actually worked, thank god those days seem to
have
passed.
If a CV landed on my desk with nothing more that “I paid $10k for a
course
and got a certificate” on it my first and last thought will be “you are
a
fool and I dont want anything to do with you”
We have actually interviewed someone who taught themselves Rails and was
building a Facebook clone with the code on github, Turns out that the
crap
code was his and the good bits were from his collaborator, but he did at
least get as far as having an interview.
Maybe I’m just old but I expect programmers to be self motivated and
teach
themselves things that they need or are interested in. I expect them to
have tried to do something completely impractical and beyond their grasp
for no better reason than it seemed like a good idea at the time. I
expect
them to have random fields of expertise because then just happened to
get
deeply interested in something they stumbled upon at some point. I
expect
them to have skills that are completely at odds with their jobs (a web
developer who is also an expert in FPGA programming).
Certificates are the opposite of this ethos.
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 07:35:48AM +0900, Kevin Y. wrote:
Is that really true that employers will not hire a candidate without
programming related degree? I know at least two people who went to fine
art programs and one is doing very well as an iOS app developer and the
other something else I do not know at this moment. Also I attended few
SkillShare courses that are taught by professional programmers who were
self-taught and they definitely did not think that college degrees are
necessary as long as your work reflects certain level of skill. There
wasn’t any conflict of interests as those classes were free.
Note three things:
-
I did not say a “programming related” degree. I just said a
“college”
degree. My significant other has been working in software fields for
years on the strength of psychology and biology degrees (not in psych or
bio related software, mind you) in addition to her skills and experience
working her way up from entry level. Regardless of her experience,
excellent recommendations, and kills, she almost certainly would not
have
her current job if not for at least one of those degrees or some other
(at least four-year) degree to replace them.
-
Without a degree, “equivalent” experience may apply, as I mentioned.
This is largely only available to “rockstars” or (as I should have
mentioned, but unfortunately did not) people who are grandfathered in by
virtue of having more years of professional work in the field than many
college graduates have been alive.
-
My DHH example was intentionally extreme. Lesser “rockstars” exist,
like people who’ve made iOS apps on their own time that have been bought
by enough users that it raises a hiring manager’s eyebrows. Mere skill
is not enough in the general job market.
There are exceptions to every generalization, including mine, but they
are called exceptions precisely because they are exceptional in some
way.
Sorry to make your skin crawl.
We don’t provide a certificate or anything. Just try to teach the
fundamentals of software development, the ruby ecosystem, and the Rails
framework. They build real applications and can point to code they have
written. That’s it.
“until programmers stop acting like obfuscation is morally hazardous,
they’re not artists, just kids who don’t want their food to touch.” _why
On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 11:28:48PM +0900, Jan E. wrote:
to understand an execution plan and write a query that won’t break down
self-taught architects out there. But when you hire one, you probably
want him to have an actual diploma and not just a certificate from
“Learn statics in only 1 week!”.
I’m not saying that those Flatiron courses are useless. I don’t know
them. But I think they give a a very wrong impression of what you can do
with your knowledge. What kind of jobs will that be when all you need is
a few weeks of training?
I have a question for you, if you don’t mind getting slightly
tangential:
What should an applicant for an “entry level” Ruby job have on his or
her
resume?
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Avi F. [email protected] wrote:
It isn’t marketing lingo. Don’t you feel pleasure and wonder coding?
Pleasure yes, wonder no. That was when I was 14 maybe, but most of
the magic went away when I looked behind the scenes. But don’t pity
me, I am content the way it is.
Seeing what you can create and how you can express it? I mean connect to
that - this isn’t just a job, we’re not code monkeys or pixel pushers,
we’re artists.
I would never describe myself as an artist - I am an engineer. Note
also that artists usually do not work against deadlines or roadmaps
laid out by others. Instead they have their own agenda. While some
of us may actually be able to create something based on their own
preferences and be successful with that (the term “rock star” was
used), the overwhelming majority works in a different mode.
It’s wondeful. Connect to that. I know the job can get
stale but let’s not forget what we’re doing here.
Exactly: to be good at our job one needs enthusiasm (like for
everything you want to excel in), creativity and a certain level of
cold-bloodedness (otherwise you won’t be able to tackle complicated
matter). Not getting carried away by one’s own creations is actually
a virtue.
I know my language can get lavish when talking about code, it isn’t a
gimmick, it’s how I feel.
Well, I feel different.
Kind regards
robert
I think the reason why some of us are so sceptical about this “euphoric
language” is that we’ve all seen too many hipsters with their MacBooks
jumping on the Ruby train, because they thought it’s the new cool thing
to do. After a while, you’d never hear from them again, and all they
left was an abandoned GitHub page.
So when someone gets all enthusiastic about how cool and creative
programming is, it smells a bit of this lifestyle stuff. We are no “rock
stars”, “code heroes”, “artists” or whatever, just programmers – or
maybe engineers, like Robert said.
But I guess nobody would be willing to pay $10,000 for something so
boring as programming knowledge …
Hah! I got every available upgrade option and bought 3rd party RAM for
my 2011 MBP (currently runs 16GB of RAM) like hi-res screen, fastest CPU
they offered, etc etc. Cost me, even with the 3rd party RAM purchase,
just a hair under $4000. Spent another 200 on books, and you don’t have
to pay for hosting anywhere with heroku, appfog.com, or Amazon’s AWS.
You could spend more like $4500 at max and have everything you need,
including a year enrolled at codecademy.com and all the courses for
Ruby, RSpec, Rails, HTML+CSS, etc you could want!
Paying $10,000 for a non-accredited school’s programming course when
their focus isn’t even really to teach you the language but to teach you
the ‘essence’ of programming… insane!
–
D. Deryl D.
“The bug which you would fright me with I seek” - William Shakespeare -
The Winter’s Tale, Act III, Scene II - A court of Justice.
Kevin Y. wrote in post #1089156:
Hi everyone!,
Do any of you have some information on FlatironSchool?
http://flatironschool.com/
I hear many good things about the program. They guarantee molding
students with no to little previous programming experience to become a
competent Web/Ruby Developer in 12 Weeks!
I am considering going there- But four things about the school make me
hesitate to apply.
1.Tuition = $10k
2.It is very new and is untested.
3. Can’t you achieve the same effect alone or studying through
Skillshare/MeetUps?
4.Job Placement
Their syllabus look great and many outsiders in programming communities
praise students’ work. I was just hoping that perhaps some of you have
more information on this school and whether you think it is worth the
investment.
Thanks!
HI,
I just wanted to thank everyone for the input.
I gained so much info here and it really helped me making my decision.
Special thanks to Avi, Peter and Chad for your generosity.
Kevin
On 18 December 2012 09:43, Jan E. [email protected] wrote:
But I guess nobody would be willing to pay $10,000 for something so
boring as programming knowledge …
But $10k would buy you a killer computer, plenty of books and pay for a
years hosting to practice with 
On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 01:16:38PM +0900, Chad P. wrote:
- I did not say a “programming related” degree. I just said a “college”
degree. My significant other has been working in software fields for
years on the strength of psychology and biology degrees (not in psych or
bio related software, mind you) in addition to her skills and experience
working her way up from entry level. Regardless of her experience,
excellent recommendations, and kills, she almost certainly would not have
her current job if not for at least one of those degrees or some other
(at least four-year) degree to replace them.
s/ kills/ skills/
I just noticed that typo. Oops.
There’s this one as well: https://www.hackerschool.com/
This one doesn’t cost anything. Different model actually. I guess
after they ask the employers to buy out the student for $20k but there
is no financial risk put on the individual whom goes there. I believe
they even have financial assistance for people who can’t afford living
by the school.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 03:29:23PM +0900, Kevin Y. wrote:
hesitate to apply.
Thanks!
HI,
I just wanted to thank everyone for the input.
I gained so much info here and it really helped me making my decision.
Special thanks to Avi, Peter and Chad for your generosity.
You’re welcome to as much help as I was able to provide. I’m glad you
found it valuable.
Sorry about the late reply. My schedule fell apart around the holiday
season, and I haven’t checked this email address for a little while.
This really all comes down to whether the connections made at the school
are worth it or not. Maybe if you get enough people who have no trouble
dropping 10k, profitable business connections are bound to be lurking
around.
And maybe, though I don’t really know, that’s just the way
business is done in the big apple…
But Jesus, this is so ridiculous. In Japan you take a $150 certification
exam to be determine whether your qualified for an entry level position
or not. Whereas in New York, you need to pay $10k for a 12 week program.
You could outsource so much work for $10k on
freelancer/guru/odesk/elance… Something’s not right with the world…
world != fair # my logic is perfect.
There’s this one as well: https://www.hackerschool.com/
This one doesn’t cost anything. Different business model actually. I
guess after they ask the employers to buy out the student for $20k but
there is no financial risk put on the individual whom goes there. I
believe they even have financial assistance for people who can’t
afford living by the school.
What is all about the such, fun and study, do you know about the
technology in schools, explore some valuable http://www.schoola2z.com/
Kevin Y. wrote in post #1089156:
Hi everyone!,
Do any of you have some information on FlatironSchool?
http://flatironschool.com/
I hear many good things about the program. They guarantee molding
students with no to little previous programming experience to become a
competent Web/Ruby Developer in 12 Weeks!
I am considering going there- But four things about the school make me
hesitate to apply.
1.Tuition = $10k
2.It is very new and is untested.
3. Can’t you achieve the same effect alone or studying through
Skillshare/MeetUps?
4.Job Placement
Their syllabus look great and many outsiders in programming communities
praise students’ work. I was just hoping that perhaps some of you have
more information on this school and whether you think it is worth the
investment.
Thanks!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
HI,
I just wanted to thank everyone for the input.
I gained so much info here and it really helped me making my decision.
Special thanks to Avi, Peter and Chad for your generosity.
Kevin
Kevin,
I find myself in the same position as you, though nearly three years
later. I found this thread very helpful.
Might I ask. What decision did you end up making and what are you doing
now, (nearly three years later)?
Thank You,
-Neil-