Who's Charles angry at?

Well, I just came across this in my feed reader:

Mymymy…such vitriol! Look, I’ve never had anything against JRuby. In
fact, I’m very interested (and less involved than I should be) in
MacRuby (which, I noticed, did not get a mention in that rant). I also
feel like Rubinius is an interesting project. That said, I’ve always
worried that Ruby is heading down Smalltalk’s slippery slope.

What heartened me a bit was that all of the various implementations
(excluding MagLev…whatever happened to those guys?) are FOSS, and
there is an active process attempting to standardize Ruby. You can find
the page over on PBWiki: http://ruby-design.pbwiki.com/

…or at least it was active? I know the late summer lends itself more
to vacations than days-long hack-fests. Still, it’d be nice to know that
there will be more coming down the pipe from the ruby-design process.
Ruby 1.9 looks good. I think I’d feel a lot better about JRuby if I knew
their group was on-board with the whole 1.8–>1.9–>2.0 process. I
realize there is a lot of practical vs principle going on here, still…

So really then, what is it going to take? I don’t think Ruby will fade
to obscurity, but it would be nice to see it succeed at least as much as
Python seems to have. If that success involves JRuby, I’m perfectly o.k.
with that!

Joshua B. wrote:

Well, I just came across this in my feed reader:
http://blog.headius.com/2008/09/elephant.html

Mymymy…such vitriol! Look, I’ve never had anything against JRuby. In
fact, I’m very interested (and less involved than I should be) in
MacRuby (which, I noticed, did not get a mention in that rant). I also
feel like Rubinius is an interesting project. That said, I’ve always
worried that Ruby is heading down Smalltalk’s slippery slope.

I don’t think there was any vitriol at all. I avoided that kind of rant
(useful as it may be, sometimes) to escape the visceral response that
always accompanies. What I really wanted was to be constructive while
slapping the stupids out of people who still dismiss JRuby because it
has a J in it. It’s definitely not everyone, and maybe not a
majority…but in many cases it’s people that garner a lot of respect
and people who should know better.

I’m also hoping this will start the discussion of what we on the JRuby
team can do better to support Rubyists. We’re really trying to make
JRuby the best it can be for you.

…or at least it was active? I know the late summer lends itself more
to vacations than days-long hack-fests. Still, it’d be nice to know that
there will be more coming down the pipe from the ruby-design process.
Ruby 1.9 looks good. I think I’d feel a lot better about JRuby if I knew
their group was on-board with the whole 1.8–>1.9–>2.0 process. I
realize there is a lot of practical vs principle going on here, still…

We are! JRuby already includes a few bits of 1.9, including Fibers
(backed by native threads, but functionally similar), native Rational
and Complex, and a few other odds and ends like proc {} = Proc.new {}.
You can turn on 1.9 mode with a simple command-line flag --1.9 and we
ship both in the same codebase. We’re on board, but we’re taking a more
relaxed approach since even 1.9 is still changing.

  • Charlie

From: “Charles Oliver N.” [email protected]

I’m also hoping this will start the discussion of what we on the JRuby
team can do better to support Rubyists. We’re really trying to make
JRuby the best it can be for you.

Every time I see one of the JRuby team’s posts on ruby-talk about a
new release, I read the changelog, and I’m frequently impressed by
the number of accomplishments listed there. My impression has been,
“These guys are kicking ass!”

Personally I don’t see a downside of having quality ruby
implementations
running on any/every conceivable platform. And from every indication,
you guys are doing quality work.

So… rock on!

Regards,

Bill

Bill K. wrote:

“These guys are kicking ass!”
In fact, Charlie, Tom, et al, have broken several Kick-ass-O-meters.

They’ll be a fund raiser soon to buy them one that is more
industrial-strength for extended ass-kickery.


James B.

www.happycamperstudios.com - Wicked Cool Coding
www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff

-------- Original-Nachricht --------

Datum: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 06:46:47 +0900
Von: Charles Oliver N. [email protected]
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Re: Who’s Charles angry at?

I don’t think there was any vitriol at all. I avoided that kind of rant

Dear Charles, dear Joshua,

Just some thoughts.
Imagine I was trying to sell some novel idea for some technical problem
to another company, along
with a software implementation.
So the idea is more important than the software, but coders at that
company would have to understand
the code and be able to maintain it.
The actual submission of the proposal goes by some in-between company
that collects proposed ideas
and hides the identities of the proponent and receiver from each other,
so I don’t know what coding languages people
at the company use, yet I have to do some programming to be able to show
something.
Ruby is the language I am most effective in.

Judging from the field sizes of Ruby and Java in this map,

http://radar.oreilly.com/Language_all.jpg

from here:

http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/03/state-of-the-computer-book-mar-23.html,

I’d say that if one wants to argue, it is still easier to blame someone
for not knowing Java than for not knowing Ruby.

I feel attracted to JRuby, because it gives me the hope that I can
produce code in Ruby and transform it into something
that will run on a Java system (using rawr), and if I nicely name the
methods and the variables, Ruby code can be
well-readable and understandable even to somebody who hasn’t used it
before.

Now I am wondering whether there’s a project in the Java world to try to
make Ruby accessible from Java in a similar
way JRuby tries to make Java accessible from Ruby. I couldn’t find
anything quickly.
Such a project could resolve to some degree the fear and angst problem
(at least practically), as it would make it easier for Rubyists and
Javaists to use code from each other while otherwise using their own
language and beloved syntactic sugar.

On the other hand, if no Java/Ruby integration project from the Java
side exists, cooperation between Java and Ruby has to happen in the
Ruby camp. This might gently bring Java coders to have a look at Ruby,
and maybe use it further, so it’s actually a project to promote Ruby as
a language … for those people who don’t like Java, this should be good
news, as it
promotes Ruby.

Best regards,

Axel

From: “Joshua B.” [email protected]

As someone mentioned in the comments on your blog, I think the
root source of the difference between how Jython and JRuby are regarded
is that there is no risk of Jython ever supplanting Python. If Jython
strays too far, it’s simply not a Python implementation any longer. Ruby
really has no concrete way of saying “this is Ruby” or “this is not
Ruby”.

My feeling as a lurker on ruby-core, is that all implementations (and
implementors) so far honor matz as the final authority, benevolent
dictator, and lead designer of the ruby language.

Has anyone observed evidence to the contrary?

Regards,

Bill

Hi –

On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Joshua B. wrote:

your essay took as a direct retort. This is why I wondered if there was
is that there is no risk of Jython ever supplanting Python. If Jython
strays too far, it’s simply not a Python implementation any longer. Ruby
really has no concrete way of saying “this is Ruby” or “this is not
Ruby”.

Matz gets to say. There’s never been any ambiguity about that.

David

Charles Oliver N. wrote:

I don’t think there was any vitriol at all. I avoided that kind of rant
(useful as it may be, sometimes) to escape the visceral response that
always accompanies. What I really wanted was to be constructive while
slapping the stupids out of people who still dismiss JRuby because it
has a J in it. It’s definitely not everyone, and maybe not a
majority…but in many cases it’s people that garner a lot of respect
and people who should know better.

True. Vitriol was probably too strong. What caught me most was the form
your essay took as a direct retort. This is why I wondered if there was
a specific target you had in mind (person or otherwise).

I’m also hoping this will start the discussion of what we on the JRuby
team can do better to support Rubyists. We’re really trying to make
JRuby the best it can be for you.

Well, as I mentioned, the silence over at ruby-design is mildly
disheartening (though, to your credit you were one of the last ones to
comment). As someone mentioned in the comments on your blog, I think the
root source of the difference between how Jython and JRuby are regarded
is that there is no risk of Jython ever supplanting Python. If Jython
strays too far, it’s simply not a Python implementation any longer. Ruby
really has no concrete way of saying “this is Ruby” or “this is not
Ruby”.

We are! JRuby already includes a few bits of 1.9, including Fibers
(backed by native threads, but functionally similar), native Rational
and Complex, and a few other odds and ends like proc {} = Proc.new {}.

So, this is where it gets kind of interesting. I think that running on
the JVM puts JRuby in a very interesting position. Ruby is such a
diverse and yet subtle language, to implement all of it’s features is no
small task. The examples you give, especially Fibers, are places where
JRuby could lead the way in prototyping new features. The difficulty is,
how much of a pass on other features can we lend to JRuby? This, of
course, brings us back to the lack of a formal delineation of what is
Ruby.

You can turn on 1.9 mode with a simple command-line flag --1.9 and we
ship both in the same codebase. We’re on board, but we’re taking a more
relaxed approach since even 1.9 is still changing.

The more I read of what you (and the JRuby team) have done, the more I
want to play with and explore JRuby. Alas, time is the one thing I don’t
have. Thank you for your work, and hopefully we can all move Ruby
forward, together.

-Josh

Hi,

In message “Re: Who’s Charles angry at?”
on Sat, 6 Sep 2008 15:22:28 +0900, “Bill K.” [email protected]
writes:

|> As someone mentioned in the comments on your blog, I think the
|> root source of the difference between how Jython and JRuby are regarded
|> is that there is no risk of Jython ever supplanting Python. If Jython
|> strays too far, it’s simply not a Python implementation any longer. Ruby
|> really has no concrete way of saying “this is Ruby” or “this is not
|> Ruby”.
|
|My feeling as a lurker on ruby-core, is that all implementations (and
|implementors) so far honor matz as the final authority, benevolent
|dictator, and lead designer of the ruby language.

+1 They have declared they’d follow “Ruby”, and we have good
relationship. We no reason to worry about. I feel great sympathy
with Charles. If they really want to “change” the language, they can
just ask me before forking.

          matz.

Yukihiro M. wrote:

RubyKaigi, and have been too lazy to set up the date over the Internet.
Charles, Evan, what do you think? Shouldn’t we start again?

Yes, absolutely. I can meet next week, but the following two might be
tricky :slight_smile: Propose a few dates that work for you, Matz.

  • Charlie

Hi,

In message “Re: Who’s Charles angry at?”
on Sat, 6 Sep 2008 10:28:54 +0900, Joshua B.
[email protected] writes:

|Well, as I mentioned, the silence over at ruby-design is mildly
|disheartening (though, to your credit you were one of the last ones to
|comment).

It’s our bad. We just forgot the set up the date for the next one at
RubyKaigi, and have been too lazy to set up the date over the Internet.
Charles, Evan, what do you think? Shouldn’t we start again?

          matz.

Charles Oliver N. wrote:

It’s our bad. We just forgot the set up the date for the next one at
RubyKaigi, and have been too lazy to set up the date over the Internet.
Charles, Evan, what do you think? Shouldn’t we start again?

Yes, absolutely. I can meet next week, but the following two might be
tricky :slight_smile: Propose a few dates that work for you, Matz.

I should also say that although I might not be available the last two
weeks of September other JRuby folks will be…so don’t worry too much
about that.

  • Charlie

Hi,

In message “Re: Who’s Charles angry at?”
on Sat, 6 Sep 2008 18:12:04 +0900, Charles Oliver N.
[email protected] writes:

|> It’s our bad. We just forgot the set up the date for the next one at
|> RubyKaigi, and have been too lazy to set up the date over the Internet.
|> Charles, Evan, what do you think? Shouldn’t we start again?
|
|Yes, absolutely. I can meet next week, but the following two might be
|tricky :slight_smile: Propose a few dates that work for you, Matz.

I am available on September 11th, 18th, 19th (in JST). As usual, they
are one day prior for you guys in America. If you guys have something
to discuss, please submit the agenda.

          matz.

Yukihiro M. wrote:

|tricky :slight_smile: Propose a few dates that work for you, Matz.

I am available on September 11th, 18th, 19th (in JST). As usual, they
are one day prior for you guys in America. If you guys have something
to discuss, please submit the agenda.

10th/11th only will work for me, but other JRubyists can probably cover
the 18th and 19th. I will be in Oslo, and the times simply don’t line up
with Japan.

  • Charlie

Hi,

In message “Re: restarting design meeting (Re: Who’s Charles angry at?)”
on Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:37:31 +0900, Charles Oliver N.
[email protected] writes:

|10th/11th only will work for me, but other JRubyists can probably cover
|the 18th and 19th. I will be in Oslo, and the times simply don’t line up
|with Japan.

I always feel bad for European people about the timezone issue.
How about others?

          matz.

Hi,

In message “Re: restarting design meeting (Re: Who’s Charles angry at?)”
on Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:52:22 +0900, Charles Oliver N.
[email protected] writes:

|> I always feel bad for European people about the timezone issue.
|> How about others?
|
|Moving the meetings to evening JST would help the Europeans out I
|believe. No guarantees, but it might mean Ola B. and I could attend
|from Oslo.

JST midnight (0:00) corresponds to

17:00 Paris
15:00 UTC
11:00 New York
10:00 Austin
09:00 Salt Lake City
08:00 San Francisco

FYI.

          matz.

Yukihiro M. wrote:

How about others?
Moving the meetings to evening JST would help the Europeans out I
believe. No guarantees, but it might mean Ola B. and I could attend
from Oslo.

  • Charlie

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