TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)

Essence:

  • Trac is deficient, cause of “proud to be an egoism driven amateur”
    developers
  • Python and it’s communities is excellent for learning. Not
    programming, but to “learn from deficiency”, community organization,
    transparency, efficiency etc.!
  • Do it in perl, if you need something more ‘pretty’, do it in ruby,
    if you need something more ‘serious’ do it in java, if you have enough
    brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.

I don’t think that’s a secret anymore. Anyone should know that the
trac team has huge problems to bring trac forward. People who have
looked at the code-base and project understand some reason: difficult
to maintain ‘spaghetti-code’ in many places, disorganized project,
missing separations of concerns etc.! I’ve provided an overview some
time ago

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TracAudit

At this time the developers are searching like crazy to find a mem-
leak… since months.

http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6614

But the main problem with the trac team is the processing within
project resources. Believe it or not, developers can act within this
project as they like, ‘trimming’ ticket comments in a way that a
ticket gets a totally other meaning.

The main specialist for this is Mr. Noah Kantrowitz. He calls it
“sanitizing”. The team hides behind him, cowardly, without any public
vote.

How did everything start?

I post a simple message to trac-users (note: the user resource, NOT
the developer resource), in order to extend my custom version of trac
0.11 a little. The message did not appear, as my email is under
moderation. I do not switch to another email, as I write always with
the same identity.

So i file a ticket within the ticket system (here you can see the
"After a quick vote, it has been decided to sanitize this ticket. "…
I start to like this “sanitize” term, sounds really interesting)

http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6802

Mr. Noah Kantrowitz deleted the discussion, but I’ve saved it here,
thus you can see that the developers of trac have no idea about their
own processes:

http://case.lazaridis.com/ticket/48

After the developers placed the usual irrelevant comments (remember: I
just asked them to stop blocking my messages to trac users), they
“brute force closed” the ticket.

I’ve opened a new one, directly adressed to the project lead, in order
to complain about the developers which violate the project processes,
and to ask for a formal vote:

http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6844

Right! Mr. Noah Kantrowitz plays again “wild west”. I relly don’t know
who of those two is more funny: the one who plays the dictator, or the
other joker who suggests to revers the process (I should find
developers to veto against the censorship and send the to the team).

Remember: we are talking about the trac-user group.

I really cannot believe that a whole team can be in such way confused,
nuts, blind, egoism-driven etc.! Possibly they have lost the password
to the trac-user group, and are not able to manage it - who knows. I
would not wonder, seeing thos terrible processes and the rejection to
improve them.

(btw: If you like to act against censorship, please post this message
to trac-users, thus the get informed about the teams processing)

And we are talking about censorship of a trac 0.11dev custom-version-
developer. A custom version with localization support, plugin-bundles
(product-plugin) which run out of the svn, an fully functional but
simple side-navigation, and… everything deactivatable with a very
simple way, thus the original trac is there again.

http://dev.lazaridis.com/base

Open Source works like this: many many small human ego’s need to be
fitted. There’s no place for developers which could redesign the whole
thing within a few months. the trac-developers need to ‘fight’ with
tons of spaghetti. The developers plan like crazy, instead to merge
with a application framework like e.g. turbogears. Did you know that
trac has no support for… datetime fields? Yes, its true.

You may say: do it yourself. Of course I could do it, even without
touching the main sources (using dyna-patches or monkeypatches). But
that’s not how open-source works. You implement thing for yourself and
contribute things back to the core-project - but with trac there’s one
problem: no one get’s the core anymore (apparently the initial
developer has left)

Of course I’ll not stay with trac, I’ll leave the sinking ship, I’ve
prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
on…

perl and it’s libraries.

Really, I don’t understand the need for python. And after fighting
with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
syntax-thing of python again.

Do it in perl, if you need something more ‘pretty’, do it in ruby, if
you need something more ‘serious’ do it in java, if you have enough
brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.

Python and it’s communities is excellent for learning. Not
programming, but to “learn from deficiency”, community organization,
transparency, efficiency etc.!

So, keep your eyes on this project, if you want to be prepared to jump-
off the sinking ship “trac”

http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/

Party Time!

.

On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias L. wrote:

Oh, it’s him again. Please do not respond.

http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias

Cheers

robert

On Sat, Feb 16, 2008, Robert K. wrote:

Oh, it’s him again. Please do not respond.

Just like you didn’t?

Oh wait.

Robert K. wrote:

On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias L. wrote:

Oh, it’s him again. Please do not respond.

http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias

Thank you. I didn’t recognize his name at first.

[“Followup-To:” header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]

Jeff S. [email protected] wrote:

Thank you. I didn’t recognize his name at first.
I had the post already pegged as bait simply by counting
the number of commas in the Newsgroups header. :slight_smile:

On 16 Öåâ, 15:45, Robert K. [email protected] wrote:

On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias L. wrote:

Oh, it’s him again. Please do not respond.

http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html

Thanks, nice message, I’ve added it to the section:

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/CoreLiveEval#WhatPeopleThink

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias

It’s really funny how easily people fall into the
“encyclopediadramatica-trap”… really funny.

"
While the articles themselves are mostly satirical jabs at Internet
users (both individually and in groups) and phenomena, bear in mind
that the Encyclopedia Dramatica itself is a parody of a much less
funny online encyclopedia. As such, ED articles tend to make fun of
the supposed objectivity and accuracy, elitism, and stupid edit wars
of such sites. In other words, expect blatant, biased lies, and expect
boring truths to get deleted quickly."
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Encyclopedia_Dramatica:About

Marc H. wrote:

At one point it hardly matters how messy something is, as long as people
direction.
well you can always use redmine :stuck_out_tongue:

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008, Robert K. wrote:

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias

Very witty article, made me laugh, thanks!
*t

Wow… I dont like python much as a language. I respect it though
because it did away with the ugly line noise of perl. (But ruby did a
lot better).

However, there is one huge reason why trac became so popular - there is
a DEMAND for these applications.

The very same happened with Mantis. It didnt have much in the beginning,
but it was (and is) constantly growing.

At one point it hardly matters how messy something is, as long as people
drive it forward - take phpbb3 for example.

I’d wish ruby would jump in but this all takes a little bit of effort
after effort, and there is no point at all in writing so much about a
project YOU dislike. I couldnt even stop writing what I dislike … like
all the various perl scripts bundled in countless software apps - they
should be ruby scripts instead. :slight_smile:

But as long as people all agree that the www has become incredibly
important, i am fine. Because the drive-on seems to steered in the right
direction.

On Feb 16, 2008, at 05:49 , Robert K. wrote:

Oh, it’s him again. Please do not respond.

http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias

Seconded:

From: http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/IliasIsCrazy.html

“Ilias is a character on ruby-talk / comp.lang.ruby that is dominating
threads right now. Some consider him a troll, others just a loon.
Either way, he is ruining the signal:noise ration. He did the same on
comp.lang.lisp and they drove him out by ignoring him after only 3
months. In that 3 month span however, he wrote 518 different posts
(according to google groups). That is horrid. We shouldn’t let him do
that to comp.lang.ruby. […]”

I authored this THREE YEARS AGO… please don’t let him come back by
responding to him. It only empowers him.

[RESEND answer to all initial groups]

On 16 Öåâ, 19:15, Jeff S. [email protected] wrote:

Ilias L. wrote:

Essence:

Spam spam spam spam…

I just looked at your resume.

http://lazaridis.com/resumes/lazaridis.html

(need to update it, lot’s of irrelevant stuff, should focus on my
failures)

What is Abstract Project Management?

I’ve mentioned “abstract product management”

Don’t know exactly, I’ve never tried to articulate the meaning which
I’ve internally.

You could extract the meaning from “Abstract Base Class” or
“Abstractness” in general.

Something like “universal product management”.

Or managing a product without having many specific information about
it.

Something like this possibly:

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/KomodoAudit

[RESEND of answer to all initial groups]

On 16 Öåâ, 15:45, Steve H. [email protected] wrote:

Ilias L. wrote:

[…]> Of course I’ll not stay with trac, I’ll leave the sinking ship, I’ve

prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
on…

perl and it’s libraries.

I’m sure you will find the Perl community much more welcoming and
receptive to your ideas about how open source projects should be run.

The perl projects can decide themselfs if they like to adopt the most
essential things:

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Project

I do not analyze languages and communities anymore, thus there is no
need for them to ‘worry’, e.g. that I attemp to transform them to an
high evolutive language system.

Ruby and Python were excellent for this (Ruby = weak puppets, Python =
egoism driven).

I’ll just use perl until I’ve implemented my own language, around 2010
to 2011, which will be most possibly close to perl (or a perl
extension, if technically possibly and no legal barriers with
libraries).

Perl is available in nearly every webserver, and has very nice a
logical OO functionality (although it’s not very good marketed, this
OO part). And perl keeps you highly independent, you can work with
simple systems, close to the OS.

Really, I don’t understand the need for python. And after fighting
with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
syntax-thing of python again.

Fortunately, as you have realized, you have choices and are under no
compulsion to use any particular tool.

As said above: python (essentially it’s community in a wider scope) is
an ideal domain to analyze how human egoism blocks evolution of
technical systems. Thus, python is an important educational tool.

Do it in perl, if you need something more ‘pretty’, do it in ruby, if
you need something more ‘serious’ do it in java, if you have enough
brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.

And, apparently, do it in Python if you want to avoind running into
Ilias L…

No, I’ll be bound to python for some time, a year or so.

And good news: as I cannot post to the trac-user group, I’ll post the
topics to comp.lang.python.

(you can thank the project lead of trac, his lack of courage is the
reason that the developers get out of control)

I have to say your approach to IT systems seems somewhat pedestrian,

The IT industry has failed to provide simple standards, systems. AI
has failed to produce intelligent systems. So, maybe the IT industry
is somewhat pedestrian, as its failure to control egoism has led to
terrible software systems.

Restarting from the beginning can give the impression of a “learning
child”.

but I wish you well in whatever it is you are trying to achieve.

http://core.lazaridis.com/wiki/ActivityHistory

I hope you have a good set of asbestos (i.e. flame-proof) trousers.

As said, the analysis phase is over.

But even if not: I’ve ‘survived’ within comp.lang.lisp for some months

http://groups.google.gr/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/879809

I think no language community can be worser.

Btw:

If you would adopt the open-source-processes to digital electronic
design, we would work today still with 8086.

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/ProjectLead

.

[email protected] schrieb:

Dear Ilias,

Post in a single reply.

He has to, in hopes to gain the traction he desires - as otherwise he’s
pretty much ignored these days. Which is a good thing of course…

Diez

Dear Ilias,

Post in a single reply.

Coko

On Feb 18, 6:56 pm, “Diez B. Roggisch” [email protected] wrote:

[email protected] schrieb:

Dear Ilias,

Post in a single reply.

He has to, in hopes to gain the traction he desires
^^^^

Was the pun intended ? :wink: