Ruby certification

Dear friends,

As like java sun certification, (SCJP) is there any certifications exam
in ruby thats accepted by companies globally.

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Martin

As like java sun certification, (SCJP) is there any certifications exam
in ruby thats accepted by companies globally.

I guess that answer depends on how you define acceptance. Like all
certifications, there are a lot of opinions of exactly how well having a
certification actually relates to real world ability. Check out the
bugtraq security list and you’ll see lots of threads about how valuable
a CISSP, MCSE, or any other of the dozen or so popular certifications
are and people asking which one is the best or how valuable they really
are. As Ruby gains popularity and more certifications are offered, I
suspect we’ll see a lot more of these questions on the latest Ruby
certifications.

I should admit that I am biased because I am enrolled in the University
of Washington Ruby P.ming certificate extension program
(http://www.extension.washington.edu/ext/certificates/rby/rby_gen.asp).
When I was deciding whether to take it or not, I considered the
following factors:

Cost: UW’s program is 3 quarters (30 weeks) and costs about $1,900
including fees. There are free online courses (see todays ANN email for
http://www.rubylearning.org/class) and on this list about a month or two
back, there was another program mentioned somewhere around Chicago that
was about $2,000 for 8 or 10 weeks. No doubt a quick Google search would
find many more.

Content: I think that to be truly proficient in Ruby, there is a lot to
learn and for me, a lot to unlearn from years of programming in other
languages. The 30 weeks at UW offers the time to go into a lot of
subject material that cramming for a certification exam or a condensed
program really can’t do justice to. In addition, it takes time to be
coding on a regular basis for these bits of Ruby wisdom to really sink
it. You can learn the Ruby syntax from a book but only through hours of
coding will you truly master what it has to offer.

Instruction: The UW instructors are top notch. Ryan D. teaches the
first quarter and he knows his stuff (note: I am in no danger of failing
so I do not need to kiss his *ss hoping for some brownie points). I
learn as much in the open question and answers time of each class as
from structured lecture. To make sure the instructor is worthy to teach
any certificate program or class, I would check to see how the
instructor is connected to the Ruby community. Have they released gems?
What is their work experience? Are they active on this or other lists?
The quality of instruction is really a differentiating point between the
various classes offered.

Commitment: For me, I like going to a classroom and committing that time
each week for Ruby programming and then having homework to reinforce
that. I have a bookcase full of books that I want to open up and learn
more about but never really have due to work priorities, wife, kids,
camping/ski trips, etc. If its optional, it usually gets squeezed out by
something else. Taking the UW program is a good way for me to stay
committed to learning Ruby over an 8 month period much more deeply than
sitting on a couch and skimming a book for a night or two ever will.

Reputation: UW has an excellent computer science program and overall
reputation which I think carries over to the extension programs it
offers. As a result, I think having this experience on my resume is
certainly a positive thing. I don’t doubt that ‘global acceptance’ of a
UW program is higher than that of many other offerings.

At the end of the day, I know that I will be a much better Ruby coder in
June when the program is over than I am now which is a lot better than I
was in September. Having a certificate in hand is nice, especially if it
gets your foot in the door, but performance is really what matters. It
doesn’t take long for smart people (experienced coders) to weed out the
good programmers from the bad programmers and that is something a
certificate will never change. :slight_smile:

YMMV,
Jim

Thank you jin for your valuable information. The information is very
useful for me and could i get any specific online exam for ruby. just
like red hat linux or SCJP, just get the voucher number through some
centers fix an appointment for exam and take up the exam.

Could i get any details regarding that type of online exam for ruby.

On 12/8/07, dare ruby [email protected] wrote:

As like java sun certification, (SCJP) is there any certifications exam
in ruby thats accepted by companies globally.

I fear that some people are pushing for such a stupid thing. And
because there are people stupidly pushing for such a stupid thing,
such a stupid thing will be created by greedy people willing to take
of people’s stupid push.

Programming language certification exams aren’t worth anything to
anyone who is worth working for. I’ll never work for someone who would
require or prefer a certification, because it means that they don’t
actually value contributor input and view people as equally
interchangeable.

I’d argue that this applies to most computer certification programs,
if not all, but I suspect that there are a few certification programs
that are worthwhile. I suspect that they’re not related to
technologies, though, but to particular processes that are required to
make certain equipment or software that involves extremely low error
tolerances, such as space shuttle software or pacemaker software.

-austin

Hi,

In message “Re: ruby certification”
on Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:59:19 +0900, dare ruby
[email protected] writes:

|As like java sun certification, (SCJP) is there any certifications exam
|in ruby thats accepted by companies globally.

It’s just started in Japan. It’s not yet “global” nor “accepted by
companies” though. We hope it will.

          matz.

such a stupid thing will be created by greedy people willing to take
of people’s stupid push.

I think it’s only fair to post insanely ungrammatical English if you
don’t speak regular English.


Giles B.

Podcast: http://hollywoodgrit.blogspot.com
Blog: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
Portfolio: http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Tumblelog: http://giles.tumblr.com

On Sat, Dec 08, 2007 at 11:25:59PM +0900, John J. wrote:

Oh, come on.
Some are against certifications as usual, but at that point what good is a
diploma or degree?!
Any reasonable employer or project leader will simply view a certification
or diploma or degree as ONE OF MANY factors in deciding a candidates value.
[…]

Certificates, degrees, past jobs, and other things listed on a resume
are
substitutes for actual knowledge about a candidate’s technical
suitability
for a software engineering/development job. When members of an already
strong technical team are involved in the interviewing process, they can
glean that actual knowledge and resume items are less relevant. When the
interviewers do not have the expertise to ask appropriate technical
questions and properly judge the responses, they must rely on
certifications and the other resume items instead. There is a spectrum
in
between, of course. Of all the things one might list on a resume,
certifications give the least valuable information about one’s technical
skills.

My perspective is that if I am not interviewed by a group of strongly
technical people, I don’t want to work there. If they can’t judge my
technical expertise without relying on certifications to know that I
have a
certain skill set, I’m not going to enjoy working there.

On the other side of the table, when I am involved in interviewing, I
look
on certifications as a strike against the candidate. The mere fact that
this person chose to list certifications on his/her resume indicates
that
the candidate is willing to work somewhere that lacks a strong technical
team to judge candidates in an interview (or that he/she isn’t good at
writing a resume, which still isn’t good since it shows poor
communication
skills but it isn’t as bad in my eyes).

Note that there are environments in which certifications are
appropriate.
In the Microsoft and Java technology consulting business, salespeople
are
securing contracts by being able to promote the technical strengths of
their teams to people who lack technical expertise. Being able to say
that
the company will dedicate a team of people, each of whom is certified in
the N technologies that will solve the problem at hand, makes a big
difference. One could argue that the same is true for an individual
freelance consultant.

Also, I think there’s a big distinction between certifications and
degrees.
I have an Ivy League Master’s degree in Computer Science. I think that
means something. One thing it means is that I got to know something
about
the landscape of both graduate and undergraduate CS programs in the
country
by being exposed to papers, talks, and people from other universities in
a
technical setting. If I see a job candidate with an undergraduate degree
in
CS from UC Berkeley, that tells me something about what kind of
education
I’d expect him/her to have had. If I see a CS degree from UDel, however,
that tells me no more than a certification since I never came across
anyone
or anything from there in my academic career. Schools have reputations,
which tend to be more meaningful than rankings, and a degree from a
reputable school means a great deal more than a certification.

Back to the topic at hand, though, what are your reasons for getting a
certification?

Do you think you’ll learn more that way than learning on your own? You
might, but that isn’t a good reason to list it on your resume or bring
it
up in an interview.

Do you think you will be able to earn more money with it than without?
Probably not.

Do you think you need it to get a job at all? Only if you aren’t any
good,
and the only way you can get a job is to bamboozle someone who doesn’t
have
th technical expertise to know any better, in which case you DO need the
certification. Alternately, if you choose to be a consultant you may
find a
certification (or more than one) valuable in convincing customers that
you
are the right one for the contract.

Do you think it might come in handy as a backup or safety net? Maybe,
but
you’re probably better off investing your time and money in learning as
much as possible rather than taking a test and paying for a piece of
paper.

–Greg

Oh, come on.
Some are against certifications as usual, but at that point what good
is a diploma or degree?!
Any reasonable employer or project leader will simply view a
certification or diploma or degree as ONE OF MANY factors in deciding
a candidates value.

As always there are plenty of other professions and activities
(medicine, engineering, law, scuba diving, pilots…) within which
such documents are deemed valuable and even minimally necessary, but
even in those fields, those documents alone are not the sole standard
used to gauge merit by any reasonable decision makers.

On 12/8/07, John J. [email protected] wrote:

Oh, come on.
Some are against certifications as usual, but at that point what good
is a diploma or degree?!
Any reasonable employer or project leader will simply view a
certification or diploma or degree as ONE OF MANY factors in deciding
a candidates value.

Certs have a bad rep in the US but the Japanese certification Matz
mentions is probably totally good. There’s nothing wrong with certs,
they’re just aimed at a different kind of programmers. The question
you want to hear in a job interview is “how awesome are you?” The
question certs ask is “are you at least competent?” The hostility to
certs is reasonable in that nobody likes to be asked the second
question, but it’s unreasonable in that there are plenty of jobs where
that’s the sane question to ask. The proliferation of certs is
actually very valuable, with Ruby being mainstreamed in the US via
Rails, because it gives you a way to objectively distinguish “how much
do you rock?” jobs from “are you at least awake?” jobs. The two types
of jobs require totally different types of programmers to fill them,
and a programmer from one type wouldn’t be happy in a job from the
other type. It’s valuable to be able to spot that distinction from a
good long way off.


Giles B.

Podcast: http://hollywoodgrit.blogspot.com
Blog: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
Portfolio: http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Tumblelog: http://giles.tumblr.com

Do you think you need it to get a job at all? Only if you aren’t any good,
and the only way you can get a job is to bamboozle someone who doesn’t have
th technical expertise to know any better, in which case you DO need the
certification. Alternately, if you choose to be a consultant you may find a
certification (or more than one) valuable in convincing customers that you
are the right one for the contract.

That really isn’t fair and could very well be inaccurate as well. It
may be true for the United States but there are many other countries
out there. Without investigating the usefulness or non-usefulness of
certifications in those countries’ labor markets, the claim you’re
making here lacks context and makes unkind assumptions.

If you come from any of a number of other contexts besides the
background of an American named Greg who has an Ivy League education
and certainly sounds like a white guy, certifications could in fact be
very valuable.


Giles B.

Podcast: http://hollywoodgrit.blogspot.com
Blog: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
Portfolio: http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Tumblelog: http://giles.tumblr.com

On 12/8/07, Giles B. [email protected] wrote:

such a stupid thing will be created by greedy people willing to take
of people’s stupid push.
I think it’s only fair to post insanely ungrammatical English if you
don’t speak regular English.

I challenge you to show that the sentence is ungrammatical, except for
possibly missing a word (“advantage”) that seems to have been zapped
in editing. Seriously. The point is that there are people—and it
doesn’t matter whether they’re employers or potential employees—who
are making a stupid request. Greedy people will happily fulfill that
request. What I can say is that I won’t be hiring anyone who says that
they have a certification in Ruby, because it says that they’ve bought
into an idea that doesn’t have a purpose or place. IMO.

(Hint: it’s nearly impossible to write an ungrammatical sentence in
English. It’s possible to write sentences that are hard to parse, but
English is amazingly flexible. Otherwise, masterpieces like
Jabberwocky wouldn’t be remotely possible.)

-austin

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007, Austin Z. wrote:

Programming language certification exams aren’t worth anything to
anyone who is worth working for. I’ll never work for someone who would
require or prefer a certification, because it means that they don’t
actually value contributor input and view people as equally
interchangeable.

As someone who narrowly dodged bankruptcy a few years ago, I can’t
always
take the moral high ground. Sometimes just paying the bills is higher
priority.

– Matt
It’s not what I know that counts.
It’s what I can remember in time to use.

On 12/8/07, Giles B. [email protected] wrote:

On 12/8/07, John J. [email protected] wrote:

Oh, come on. Some are against certifications as usual, but at that
point what good is a diploma or degree?! Any reasonable employer or
project leader will simply view a certification or diploma or degree
as ONE OF MANY factors in deciding a candidates value.

Certs have a bad rep in the US […]

A well-deserved bad rep. Certs prove nothing of value, and are in fact
primarily used by vendors as a “stupid tax” on businesses (who think
they provide value) and people (who have to satisfy those businesses).
Certifications are now a MASSIVE industry catering to that stupid tax.

but the Japanese certification Matz mentions is probably totally good.

I’m not convinced. I’d have to see the requirements for it.

There’s nothing wrong with certs, they’re just aimed at a different
kind of programmers.

This statement is not true. There’s everything wrong with certs – and
certs are very different than a university degree in terms of effort,
breadth, and cost.

The question you want to hear in a job interview is “how awesome are
you?” The question certs ask is “are you at least competent?”

If they actually asked “are you at least competent”, I wouldn’t have
that much trouble. The least competent people that I’ve dealt with are
“certified” – and that’s in any IT capacity. The most competent
people are those who have a passion for what it is that they do.

The problem is that certs don’t even prove a minimum level of
competence, just a minimum level of testability.

The hostility to certs is reasonable in that nobody likes to be asked
the second question, but it’s unreasonable in that there are plenty of
jobs where that’s the sane question to ask.

The hostility to certs is entirely because they’re worthless, not
because they prove competence. They don’t. They prove that people are
stupid.

-austin

On Sun, Dec 09, 2007 at 02:00:21AM +0900, Giles B. wrote:

certifications in those countries’ labor markets, the claim you’re
making here lacks context and makes unkind assumptions.

Okay, I’ll buy that. I will amend my comments in that I mean them to
apply
only to the U.S., and maybe only on the East Coast.

If you come from any of a number of other contexts besides the
background of an American named Greg who has an Ivy League education
and certainly sounds like a white guy, certifications could in fact be
very valuable.

American, yes, and in an East Coast market. Being white, named Greg,
and/or
Ivy League educated is irrelevant. It is possible that college-educated
is
relevant, however.

Giles B.
–Greg

On 12/8/07, Matt L. [email protected] wrote:

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007, Austin Z. wrote:

Programming language certification exams aren’t worth anything to
anyone who is worth working for. I’ll never work for someone who would
require or prefer a certification, because it means that they don’t
actually value contributor input and view people as equally
interchangeable.
As someone who narrowly dodged bankruptcy a few years ago, I can’t always
take the moral high ground. Sometimes just paying the bills is higher
priority.

Which is one good reason to avoid certs. They cost a lot of money and
don’t pay that cost back in terms of higher pay. Which essentially
means that they aren’t worth spit.

-austin

I find I can’t resist jumping in here. :slight_smile:

Generally speaking, certs are a joke, but also a fact of life.

First - the joke part:

  • I have seen one too many people getting certs by simply studying
    some guide (sometimes published by the very company issuing the cert)
    without once even using the technology, let alone using it in a real
    world setting.

  • They are also a bit frustrating to people who have years of real
    world experience in a given area and are then asked to produce a cert.
    I can totally understand why some might simply refuse to go there.

  • In my experience, certs are, in fact, relied on by non-technical
    people trying to produce some kind of due-diligence trail for CYA
    purposes. Who wants to be managed by people who don’t really
    understand what it is they are managing?

I think it is actually pretty analogous to getting a degree. I’ve
known many talented and experienced developers with no degree, and
plenty of shiftless morons who have them. Not to mention differences
between the quality of degrees.

Now, the necessary part:

The requirements for various bits of fancy paper is a fact of life.
Even well-intentioned technically proficient managers may find they
are required for their firm’s due diligence process.

Thus, our (the Ruby community) goal should IMHO be to identify one or
more good certs and support them. When someone comes in asking which
cert is the best, that is a great opportunity for us to influence the
situation.

This is especially true when Matz comes in and suggests there is a
cert he supports. Ideally, we would have a single standard cert that
one can obtain (if you already have the experience) for minimal costs.

Like anything in life, certs are mostly what we make of them. For less
experienced developers with a sincere desire to learn and enter the
Ruby job market, it is a good way to do both.

For those who just want to scam the system, and appear to have
knowledge that they don’t … well, those kinds of people will always
be there, one way or another. Certs may facilitate their activity, but
that’s life.

Put another way, deceitful practitioners will invent dubious certs if
we don’t support legitimate ones. I would love to hear more about
legit certs that don’t cost a ton for those who are already
experienced (that is, any fees are merely associated with the training
or teaching, not merely the taking of a test).

Certification Free,
Dan

ZeraWeb, Inc.
http://dev.zeraweb.com/

First i’m new to ruby!

I see the open source projects from any developer as the better way to
see
what one developer can do! When we talk about certifications, we can’t
know
if the developer really KNOW, or just KNOW ACTUALLY TESTS. We need
developers to solve and create new problems and not to
copy/paste/decorate!

My suggestion is:

I new concept of certifications, without tests! To get the ruby
certification the developer sign-in in a web site, and submit a project.
This project will be mentored by other(s) developer(s) and he will say:
“he
is a good developer, now he is a ruby certified” or “he is NOT a good
developer…”.

I never see this concept of certification, but it sounds nice for me!

(sorry for my poor english, i’m learning!)

Regards,
Luiz Vitor Martinez C. aka Grabber
engineer student at maua.br
Brazil - São Paulo

On 12/8/07, cruiserdan [email protected] wrote:

known many talented and experienced developers with no degree, and
more good certs and support them. When someone comes in asking which

priority.


Regards,
Luiz Vitor Martinez C. [Grabber].
(11) 8187-8662

Eletrical Engineer at maua.br

such a stupid thing will be created by greedy people willing to take
of people’s stupid push.
I think it’s only fair to post insanely ungrammatical English if you
don’t speak regular English.

I challenge you to show that the sentence is ungrammatical, except for
possibly missing a word (“advantage”) that seems to have been zapped
in editing.

I challenge you to find any mistake, except for the one I just made!
Go! I dare you!

Seriously.

I think this word here is the source of the issue…

(Hint: it’s nearly impossible to write an ungrammatical sentence in
English. It’s possible to write sentences that are hard to parse, but
English is amazingly flexible. Otherwise, masterpieces like
Jabberwocky wouldn’t be remotely possible.)

Word dude. Point there. Totally. My bad.


Giles B.

Podcast: http://hollywoodgrit.blogspot.com
Blog: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
Portfolio: http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Tumblelog: http://giles.tumblr.com

(Hint: it’s nearly impossible to write an ungrammatical sentence in
English. It’s possible to write sentences that are hard to parse, but
English is amazingly flexible. Otherwise, masterpieces like
Jabberwocky wouldn’t be remotely possible.)

Word dude. Point there. Totally. My bad.

But wait. I just like. Realized. THE Jabberwocky. There’s a the.


Giles B.

Podcast: http://hollywoodgrit.blogspot.com
Blog: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
Portfolio: http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Tumblelog: http://giles.tumblr.com

If you come from any of a number of other contexts besides the
background of an American named Greg who has an Ivy League education
and certainly sounds like a white guy, certifications could in fact be
very valuable.

American, yes, and in an East Coast market. Being white, named Greg, and/or
Ivy League educated is irrelevant. It is possible that college-educated is
relevant, however.

You would think being named Greg was irrelevant - it’s a perfectly
reasonable assumption - but it’s not true. Studies have found that the
same resume with a more “American” name gets ranked higher. You put my
name and your name on the same resume, then submit both to a large
number of available jobs, on average, yours will be perceived as
better, despite being identical.

The rest of it’s relevant too - more so, obviously - but I haven’t got
time to get into it.


Giles B.

Podcast: http://hollywoodgrit.blogspot.com
Blog: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
Portfolio: http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Tumblelog: http://giles.tumblr.com

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