PSA: Ilias is Crazy

I guess I have to post this periodically since our population is growing
and changing so much.


Please stop responding to Ilias, he is crazy. If you stop talking to
him, he will go away. If you don’t believe me, check out this:

http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html

He soon started posting long tirades where he proved' that the CL standard requires various behaviour, while completely ignoring the detailed rebuttals of hisproofs’.

(Sound familiar?)

Especially:

Ilias is currently (17-Sep-2002) being almost entirely ignored and
is crying alone to himself, while trying to join in various
threads. With luck if this continues he will get bored and wander
off to annoy people in some other newsgroup. He is one of the most
malignant posters to cll in recent history - between 27-Aug-2002 and
24-Sep-2002 threads begin by him were about 1/4 of the articles in
cll.

Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain from
replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.

If you would, please join us is fighting this problem. For more details,
see:

http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/IliasIsCrazy.html

Thank You

On Jun 10, 2011, at 2:41 PM, Ryan D. wrote:

I guess I have to post this periodically since our population is growing and
changing so much.


Please stop responding to Ilias, he is crazy. If you stop talking to him, he
will go away. If you don’t believe me, check out this:

As someone who has joined the lists only 5-6 months ago (and has not
been exposed to
this nonsense), it’s quite hard to resist the urge to point out when
someone is always so very
wrong about so many things. I do worry a newcomer might see his posts
and not realize it is
insanity. But I’ll do my part, I’ll bite my tongue.

Michael E.
[email protected]
http://carboni.ca/

Ryan D. wrote in post #1004439:

Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain from
replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.

i’ve only recently joined the ruby forum as well, and cannot second
Ryan’s request enough. i haven’t taken part in any of Ilias’s threads,
and i strongly encourage others to not do so. it gets tiring seeing the
board full of "BARRIER-"s and "CORE-"s, and detracts time and
attention from those of us who have questions or are looking for
suggestions, or newcomers whose questions might get lost entirely in the
sea of Ilias.
i don’t like to badmouth anyone - Ilias, if you read this please try
understand that your threads continuously degenerate into argumentative
henpecking that has very little to do with the ruby language, and
detract from the integrity of this forum. if you’re not satisfied with
ruby as it is, perhaps you should take Matz’s advice, and write your own
language.

sincerely,

  • jk

Oh dear. I had wondered what all the thread marked CORE were about. It’s
sad to see Xah Lee mentioned on the lisp ‘mad’ list. He created
ergoemacs which I’ve used, but is still too heavy to beat Vim for me.

What does PSA stand for? Please stop answering?

Edit: Please see attached.

Simon H. wrote in post #1004448:

What does PSA stand for? Please stop answering?

Edit: Please see attached.

Public Service Announcement is what comes to my mind…

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 03:41:59AM +0900, Ryan D. wrote:

detailed rebuttals of his `proofs’.
24-Sep-2002 threads begin by him were about 1/4 of the articles in
cll.

Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain from replying to
his posts, or in threads he starts.

If you would, please join us is fighting this problem. For more details, see:

http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/IliasIsCrazy.html

Also see here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Ilias-Lazaridis

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Ryan D. [email protected]
wrote:

Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain
from replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.

Apparently, his insanity (which I don’t dispute) has resulted in some
legitimate improvements that have been accepted for Ruby 1.9.3, so I’m
not convinced that engaging him is without utility.

On Jun 10, 2011, at 14:29 , Aaron P. wrote:

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 03:41:59AM +0900, Ryan D. wrote:

http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/IliasIsCrazy.html

Also see here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Ilias-Lazaridis

Added, thanks.

On 6/10/2011 9:40 PM, Luis L. wrote:

On Jun 10, 9:48 pm, Christopher D. [email protected] wrote:

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Ryan D. [email protected] wrote:

Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain
from replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.
Apparently, his insanity (which I don’t dispute) has resulted in some
legitimate improvements that have been accepted for Ruby 1.9.3, so I’m
not convinced that engaging him is without utility.
Can you tell me which improvements?

Some issues that have been accepted (and fixed):
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4758
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4738
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4806 (not closed, but some changes
have already been made)
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4784

A couple still under discussion:
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4824 (this one I think is a good
idea)
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4830 (this one I don’t)

Rejected:
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4774 (closed at Ilias’ request after
it was explained why it should not be needed)
http://redmine.ruby-lang.org/issues/4845 (the only really unreasonable
one I’ve seen)

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t like Ilias, for reasons that I suspect are
obvious. At the same time however, I feel like a lot of valid points
have been raised and not taken seriously on this list, purely because of
the source.

On 6/10/2011 12:41 PM, Ryan D. wrote:

http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/IliasIsCrazy.html

From that site:

Here is what I suggest. Create a mail signature or reply template with
advice to ignore Ilias and no longer respond to him. Every time
someone responds to him, email that person with the standard response.
If enough people pick this up, and every time someone responds to
Ilias they get 10+ form letters asking them not to, it should do a
quick enough job of discouraging further threads.

I truly hope no one takes that advice. If I get 10+ of these things
spammed to my inbox because I tried to help someone, it’s not Ilias who
will wind up on my blacklist, it’s the spammers. Respond in thread
once if you must but spamming someones inbox for that is just
jack-assery. Especially considering the target of your animosity has
had 4 of 8 issues accepted (and 2 still being discussed, 1 which IMO is
a good idea).

As I’ve said previously, I don’t like Ilias, but that doesn’t mean that
nothing he has to say is valid or worth discussing. And if he really is
this bad, nature will run it’s course and soon everyone will ignore him
naturally. It already seems like the Ilias stuff has dropped off
substantially.

Personally, I wish we could get MINSWAN(Matz is nice, so we are nice)
back as a community, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside.
Spamming some poor soul for trying to answer a question is certainly not
nice.

On Jun 10, 9:48pm, Christopher D. [email protected] wrote:

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Ryan D. [email protected] wrote:

Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain
from replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.

Apparently, his insanity (which I don’t dispute) has resulted in some
legitimate improvements that have been accepted for Ruby 1.9.3, so I’m
not convinced that engaging him is without utility.

Can you tell me which improvements?

He reported a “BARRIER” as the codepage issue with old non unicode
friendly 737 codepage (greek)

Beyond that, I see long threads about CORE and BARRIER stuff as
criticizer of Matz’s OO implementation in Ruby and it’s performance
trades.

Bet next thread will be how non-OO is using regexp matchers and $1
$2…

Since this has escalated to giving the guy a thread with his name in
the title; would someone mind linking some of his more prolific
trolling. Any hijacked threads? Common trollish behavior such as
insult a person directly. T

his “Ilias is Crazy” is becoming bit trite. I also think it’s a bit
arrogant to single out and ostracize someone. I don’t know if this
person has mental issues or not. It also does not matter.

He definitely has an abrasive way of expressing himself but far be it
for me to judge him based on his lack of socialization.

Telling people not to respond to someone sounds like some sort of
elitist click or beginning of an association fallacy. It also proves a
lack of diplomacy, tolerance, and empathy from those imposing such a
ridiculous crusade.

I agree with the poster above if some silly auto-email “llias warning”
becomes tied to the sign-up or mail daemon I’d be extremely set back.
Something like that as well as this thread also reinforces the ad
hominem since you have issued a scarlet letter for the man.

From where I’m sitting he seems “Mostly Harmless”.

Think about the community proverb: Matz is nice, so we are nice.

From my observations this entails these idioms:

Matz does not alienate llias, So neither should I
Matz practices tolerance, So shall I
Matz is diplomatic, So am I

~Stu

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Sam R. [email protected] wrote:

(If this is a double post I apologies, I sent my first email from an
address
that isn’t subscribed to this list by accident and got an auto email
politely remind me of the fact. Not sure if it went through or not.)

It’s not.

I’m a new Rubyist and new to this list (as of today) and I must say,
that
first link in your email has me in stitches :slight_smile:

Some people, eh?

Thanks for making my day!

(If this is a double post I apologies, I sent my first email from an
address
that isn’t subscribed to this list by accident and got an auto email
politely remind me of the fact. Not sure if it went through or not.)

gmail for some reason or another shows 2 posts on your machine but one
to the comp.lang.ruby

It’s weird. But rest assured it’s not really double posting though it
gives the illusion that it is.

On Jun 10, 2011, at 18:48 , Christopher D. wrote:

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Ryan D. [email protected] wrote:

Again, this man is insane, so please, please, please refrain
from replying to his posts, or in threads he starts.

Apparently, his insanity (which I don’t dispute) has resulted in some
legitimate improvements that have been accepted for Ruby 1.9.3, so I’m
not convinced that engaging him is without utility.

His pedantic OCD has pointed out some stale data on the bugtracker
that’s been stale for a long time without complaint. Verdict:
inconsequential.

He pointed out that we didn’t support a decrepit unicode-incompatible
windows codepage for greek. Verdict: inconsequential.

He pointed out a bug in syck… something nobody actually maintains.
Psych was made the default engine for 1.9.3… I don’t think we’ve
looked into the potential consequences for this enough (I’ve had to make
changes to rubygems to get it to work properly with psych… I’m sure
there are others). Verdict: no clue.

All in all, I think his positive contributions do very little to pay off
the amount of negative consequences he brings to the table.

One of the reasons why MINSWAN works is by shaping our community. For
example, we actively ban trolls in IRC to maintain the culture we want
to have. We don’t have such controls in this medium as it is a
mailing-list bridged to both usenet and a web forum. This is why I
suggest shunning instead. It works… but only if we work together to
make it work. This is why it worked for comp.lang.lisp. They were
smaller and it was easier for them to actively shun Ilias until he went
away.

What we’re dealing with here is the Pareto Principal. >90% of the noise
(and trolling) is coming from <10% of the people. If we control them, we
control the noise. The signal cleans up drastically after that.

MINSWAN doesn’t mean blindly accepting every asshole who comes along.
For some people, rationality and polite requests to change behavior just
never work. For them, we should shun.

On Jun 11, 2011, at 02:14 , Stu wrote:

Since this has escalated to giving the guy a thread with his name in the title;
would someone mind linking some of his more prolific trolling. […]

A lot of examples have been pointed out in this thread for recent cases.
You can google for the older ones.

Telling people not to respond to someone sounds like some sort of
elitist click or beginning of an association fallacy. It also proves a
lack of diplomacy, tolerance, and empathy from those imposing such a
ridiculous crusade.

I’m merely trying to shape the traffic on this list in a way that
creates the community we want to have (as described in another email I
just sent, so I won’t go into that further). In some cases, no amount of
diplomacy, tolerance, or empathy will help. I believe this is one of
them. I can respect that you don’t appreciate my suggested method, but I
don’t think that having a community that we can participate in and enjoy
is a ridiculous crusade.

Go back in the mailing list archives and see how much Ilias can
destabilize this list if you don’t believe me or in my methods.
Comp.lang.lisp demonstrated that shunning Ilias worked for them. If you
don’t approve of shunning, suggest something better and show that it
works.

Ilias is 95% a troll.

5% he is actually providing incentives for thoughts.

I don’t think it is totally fair to completely want to ignore
everything he says, despite the fact that it is at least 95%
trolling.

About the signal-to-noise ratio, I think that is true. I have
heard of people who participated on ruby-talk etc… more
actively but eventually stopped. One reason of this are
guys similar to Ilias. (Another reason is that Ruby on Rails
attracted so many noobs, which is both good and bad, but the
older rubyista are bored with too many noobs)

Anyway, I have another suggestion.

For instance, I use ruby-forum.com to read and write stuff.

A feature improvement would be fine to have, a community
moderated one.

For instance, if 10 old veterans agree that Ilias should not
be replied to, then they can do a vote, I follow that vote,
and when I would want to reply to Ilias I can not because
the submit form is not there. Instead, a notification would
appear like “It is discouraged to participate in talking with
Ilias because of these reasons -> LINK_TO_URL”

I myself really only participate in the mailing list via this
forum here, so it would strike me as a good idea to improve
the forum in a way to ignore people like Ilias.

Ilias is however not a 100% troll. Only 95% which is bad
enough though.

On Saturday, June 11, 2011 04:14:17 AM Stu wrote:

Since this has escalated to giving the guy a thread with his name in
the title; would someone mind linking some of his more prolific
trolling. Any hijacked threads? Common trollish behavior such as
insult a person directly. T

He’s insulted me pretty directly most of the time he’s actually
responded to
me. He’s also made legal threats when people point out his trollish
behavior.

I might tolerate these if he brought anything useful to the discussion,
but
with him, it isn’t a discussion. He’ll blatantly ignore or strawman
anything
he doesn’t like, which means unless you present him with precisely
what he’s
looking for (and he’s usually looking for things which are at best
nonsensical
and usually very bad ideas), don’t expect him to read or understand your
post.

He definitely has an abrasive way of expressing himself but far be it
for me to judge him based on his lack of socialization.

It’s not just a lack of socialization, it’s a complete unwillingness to
learn.
That is, an unwillingness to learn much about Ruby (beyond his latest
“BARRIER”), or anything about basic etiquette. Indeed, these are exactly
the
sort of things which he’ll ignore as “offtopic”.

I wouldn’t judge someone for, say, top-posting, like you did here. But
if I
pointed out that you really shouldn’t top-post, and you should quote the
relevant parts rather than the entire email, I would hope you wouldn’t
respond
with “Quit being so unprofessional! It’s my right to top-post! Anyone
should
be able to see in five minutes that top-posting is correct! If you tell
me
again, I’ll sue!”

And that’s toned down a bit from what we usually get from Ilias. Oh, I’m
sorry, not “sue”, but “Here’s a link to defamation laws, and I’ll be
forced to
‘take action’ if you know what I mean, wink wink, nod nod.”

Telling people not to respond to someone sounds like some sort of
elitist click or beginning of an association fallacy. It also proves a
lack of diplomacy, tolerance, and empathy from those imposing such a
ridiculous crusade.

It’s pragmatic, and it’s based on his actions, not association.

I actually somewhat agree with you in that I’m likely to continue to
respond
as I have the time. After all, every response is an opportunity for
Ilias to
grow up.

But he’s far from harmless. We’re spending our time and energy dealing
with
him, instead of people who actually have real problems and are willing
to work
with us to solve them.

If he showed the slightest willingness to learn, if he “had time” to
work with
us instead of against us, then replying to him would make sense, because
he
would actually improve with each exchange. There’s no reason that, even
at
this point, he can’t become a respected member of the community, someone
who
actually does make a positive contribution.

But he’s not interested in that.

Think about the community proverb: Matz is nice, so we are nice.

From my observations this entails these idioms:

Matz does not alienate llias, So neither should I
Matz practices tolerance, So shall I
Matz is diplomatic, So am I

Here’s what Matz had to say:

http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/1893190#1004250

Perhaps that is diplomatic, tolerant, and not alienating. If so, sure,
I’d
love to see more responses like that – but not as much as I wish people
like
Matz didn’t have to waste their time with people like Ilias.

In any case, it certainly didn’t seem nice, nor does Ilias deserve nice
at
this point. He’s lucky people are still willing to tolerate him.

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