Freelance Rate

joergd · June 21, 2006, 4:37pm

Hi,

Not sure where to address this question … but I guess this is a good
start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing Rails
apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea of
what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been
charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I
could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 month
project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my
contract a little better.

Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme
know …

Thanks
Joerg

joergd · June 21, 2006, 5:02pm

U$S 28/hour? Wow, that’s a lot for me (I live in argentina).
In my country, I just earn U$S 8.33/hour, however, U$S 8.33/hour is
very good money in Argentina.

Rodrigo D.

Iplan Networks Datos Personales
[email protected] [email protected]
www.iplan.com.ar www.rorra.com.ar
5031-6303 15-5695-6027

-----Mensaje original-----
De: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] En nombre de Joerg D.
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Junio de 2006 11:38 a.m.
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: [Rails] Freelance Rate

Hi,

Not sure where to address this question … but I guess this is a good
start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing Rails

apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea of
what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been
charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I
could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 month

project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my
contract a little better.

Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme
know …

Thanks
Joerg

–
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Rails mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

joergd · June 21, 2006, 5:15pm

On 6/21/06, Rodrigo D. [email protected] wrote:

U$S 28/hour? Wow, that’s a lot for me (I live in argentina).
In my country, I just earn U$S 8.33/hour, however, U$S 8.33/hour is
very good money in Argentina.

Hmmm… Well standard rates around here (US Mountain) for web
development runs around 65-85 per hour with lump discounts for larger
projects. But it doesn’t hurt to take your client and such into
consideration. I sometimes offer contractual discounts for preferred
customers, etc (for instance I maintain my brother’s company website
in exchange for him fixing my car–heehee)… :: shrug ::

Where you are and what the rest of the market does is going to be a huge
driver.

-Curtis

joergd · June 21, 2006, 5:22pm

Joerg,

What is your experience in other web development projects? I am 22, have
3/4 years java experience, 1 year of .net, 3 years php and about a year
rails experience. I live in the Netherlands (in U.S. loans are higher)
and charge 50 euro to 90 euro/hour for most projects. But some of my
friends that are developing full time (I am a parttime developer and
fulltime student) are charging 90 euro to 150 euro/hour. Its really rare
to find someone charging less then 45 euro/hour. I think most developers
are charging much more than I am…(but might have more experience)…

Abdul

Joerg D. wrote:

Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme
know …

Thanks
Joerg

–
Abdur-Rahman A.
http://blog.railsdevelopment.com/

joergd · June 21, 2006, 5:22pm

Joerg D. wrote:

Hi,

Not sure where to address this question … but I guess this is a good
start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing Rails
apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea of
what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been
charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I
could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 month
project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my
contract a little better.

Around Texas my former company was charging $75 per hour for I.T people
and $120 an hour for web developers. Of course the web developers were
only seeing maybe $40-$45 an hour out of that after the company tooks
it’s cut.

joergd · June 21, 2006, 5:29pm

Before everyone starts replying with, 'Well I charge $x…," please read
this:

http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html#illegal

Beyond the legal ramifications, discussions of pricing tend to be a
waste of time. There are so many variables (experience, geography,
clients, overhead, etc.) that other people’s numbers are most likely
meaningless to you.

Do some Googling and you’ll find plenty of articles on how to set your
prices. Here’s one to get you started:

http://www.blueflavor.com/ed/tips_tricks/pricing_a_project.php

Good luck,

Billy M.
Smart Goat Web Design
http://www.smartgoat.com

joergd · June 21, 2006, 5:39pm

On 6/21/06, Billy M. [email protected] wrote:

Before everyone starts replying with, 'Well I charge $x…," please read this:

http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html#illegal

Hmm…interesting. I did not have pricing relations with that mailing
list… Regardless, another business consideration to be aware of is
“undercutting” which is basically pricing your product lower than the
area competition in order to get business. It’s sticky, and hairy,
and it would be good to contact a lawyer if you have any questions.
I, obviously, am not one.

-Curtis

joergd · June 21, 2006, 5:36pm

WOW!!! WOWOWOWOWOW!!!

Well, I’m 24 years old, I have about 5 years of experience in
development, I program in c, c++, perl, php, python, java, .net, asp,
ruby, smalltalk, rails, etc.

By this time, I’m working in a great communications company in Argentina
(Iplan Networks), I’m a project leader, so I started to use ruby on
rails for my projects (in Argentina, most people doesn’t know what’s
ruby, and when you ask them about rails, they have no idea, so, it was
hard to sell ruby on rails to the company :P), I just earn U$S 8.3/hour,
but that’s a lot in Argentina.

I would love to work as a freelance programmer for any of you, and I can
even get cheaper (and really good) programmers for any project, they
would be really happy to work for U$S 5-8/Hour.

Rodrigo D.

Iplan Networks Datos Personales
[email protected] [email protected]
www.iplan.com.ar www.rorra.com.ar
5031-6303 15-5695-6027

-----Mensaje original-----
De: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] En nombre de Abdur-Rahman
Advany
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Junio de 2006 12:16 p.m.
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: Re: [Rails] Freelance Rate

Joerg,

What is your experience in other web development projects? I am 22, have

3/4 years java experience, 1 year of .net, 3 years php and about a year
rails experience. I live in the Netherlands (in U.S. loans are higher)
and charge 50 euro to 90 euro/hour for most projects. But some of my
friends that are developing full time (I am a parttime developer and
fulltime student) are charging 90 euro to 150 euro/hour. Its really rare

to find someone charging less then 45 euro/hour. I think most developers

are charging much more than I am…(but might have more experience)…

Abdul

Joerg D. wrote:

Hi,

Not sure where to address this question … but I guess this is a good

start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing
Rails
apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea
of
what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been
charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I
could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8
month
project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my
contract a little better.

Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme

know …

Thanks
Joerg

–
Abdur-Rahman A.
http://blog.railsdevelopment.com/

Rails mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

joergd · June 21, 2006, 6:08pm

You’ve got this flipped upside down- it’s not what the market has to
offer, it’s what you do and how much that skillset is appreciated (more
important than needed) by the potential client, how available it is in
your area and how easily it can be shipped elsewhere in the client’s
eyes. How do they view consultants- valuable assets, or $/hr _____s? And
lastly, what’s your risk quota? Can you live without the contract/get
another quickly? Your client will always be able to find someone cheaper
(Hi Rodrigo!) and what other guys are charging really doesn’t impact
you. Your peceived value is the driving factor.

-Greg

joergd · June 21, 2006, 5:52pm

Yeah - it’s such a tricky business negotiating rates where everybody is
happy. I have more than 10 years experience: five years in London, a few
months in Beijing, and the rest in Cape Town.

Curtis S. wrote:

On 6/21/06, Billy M. [email protected] wrote:

Before everyone starts replying with, 'Well I charge $x…," please read this:

http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html#illegal

Hmm…interesting. I did not have pricing relations with that mailing
list… Regardless, another business consideration to be aware of is
“undercutting” which is basically pricing your product lower than the
area competition in order to get business. It’s sticky, and hairy,
and it would be good to contact a lawyer if you have any questions.
I, obviously, am not one.

-Curtis

joergd · June 21, 2006, 6:17pm

Well, outsourcing is still very complicated as the most difficult part
of programming is agreeing upon the clients needs. But you can’t simply
hire people for that rate (and asking them to give their full time), you
need to pay more because you need to compensate for irregular flow of
work.

Abdul

Rodrigo D. wrote:

hard to sell ruby on rails to the company :P), I just earn U$S 8.3/hour,
[email protected] [email protected]
Asunto: Re: [Rails] Freelance Rate

Not sure where to address this question … but I guess this is a good

–
Abdur-Rahman A.
http://blog.railsdevelopment.com/

joergd · June 25, 2006, 9:50pm

Absolute minimum should be $40/hr…a good developer can get up to
$70/hr
Good luck

joergd · June 21, 2006, 6:21pm

On 6/21/06, Greg [email protected] wrote:

Your client will always be able to find someone cheaper
(Hi Rodrigo!) and what other guys are charging really doesn’t impact
you. Your peceived value is the driving factor.

This is very applicable as well. Another aspect is a trust factor.
Most customers are willing to pay a higher rate for high quality and
good answers. It’s important to build trust with a client. Sometimes
you need to eat a bit of time / resources in order to find that
answer, but your clients will appreciate your advice and also not
charging them for an answer of “not sure, but we’ll find out for you
and get back”.

Trust is more important than money in a long-term business relationship.

-Curtis

joergd · June 25, 2006, 11:04pm

Give me a break, this is not price fixing at all. There’s a lot more
that
goes into price fixing than “Hey, I charge $10 / hr.”

Puhleeeeeeeeze.

joergd · June 25, 2006, 10:52pm

There simplest answer to your question is how much value you are
giving to your clients. Since experience, talent, and knowledge vary
person to person, so will the rates. I will say this. Being well
rounded and having good judgement combined with some decent business
sense will go a long way towards making you more valuable. Good
judgement is something that you either have or you don’t have, the
rest just comes with experience and practice.

joergd · June 25, 2006, 11:10pm

Tell that to British Airways

joergd · June 25, 2006, 11:29pm

If discussing pricing is a crime then Janet Ruhl of realrates.com must
be in prison already. It is
total BS.

— Ted K. [email protected] wrote:

this:

http://www.ProblemSolvingSkill.net
Hone your problem-solving skills

joergd · June 25, 2006, 11:45pm

On 6/25/06, Bala P. [email protected] wrote:

If discussing pricing is a crime then Janet Ruhl of realrates.com must be in prison already. It is
total BS.

A little research goes a long way:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing
http://apa.pmai.org/readall/antitrustlaw.html
http://webdesign-l.com/policies/#subectMatter

To save people a little bit of reading time: Anonymous, third-party
pricing surveys are legal. Discussions among competitors about how
much they should charge are not. At least, that’s the way it is in the
US. Laws in your country may vary.

Again I’ll say, legal or not, such discussions are a waste of time.
There are too many variables that go into pricing. Whatever your
situation is that causes you to charge what you do probably does not
apply to me, and vice versa.

Good luck,

Billy M.
Smart Goat Web Design
http://www.smartgoat.com

joergd · June 26, 2006, 5:46pm

I’m sorry to be confrontational, but I really have to chime in here
because
what you are saying is untrue.

Price fixing requires agreements between competitors. These agreements
can
be unspoken, for sure, but there has to be some kind of evidence that an
agreement exists. The cops are not going to kick your door in for
asking a
mailing list what the going rate seems to be for Rails consulting.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title7/ant00007.htm

There are 3 elements here, the first is an actual agreement and it needs
to
be made with intent to restrain trade (or actually to have that effect).

“In effect, the conspiracy must comprise an agreement, understanding or
meeting of the minds between at least two competitors or potential
competitors, for the purpose or with the effect of unreasonably
restraining
trade.” Does any of this discussion here seem to be made with that
intent?
Of course not… Certainly it won’t have the restraining effect, the
consulting world is far too large and this list is much too small. It’s
a
mailing list and a great question to ask. Sorry, Perry Mason, but the
DOJ
is not going to kick your door in.

And if you think the discussions are a waste of time, that’s fine, you
don’t
have to participate. I think they are potentially very helpful to
someone
just hanging out his own shingle. It’s tempting to sell yourself short
if
you are new to consulting.

I just knew my JD would come in handy sometime.

Ted

PS- I charge between $50 to $100 / hr depending on the nature of the
project. Yeah, it’s a wide range, but different circumstances call for
different rates. I think you shouldn’t have any trouble getting $40+ /
hr at
any level, but at the same time there are a lot of guys in other
countries
that will do the work for way less. You can either see this as
competition
or a great way to outsource business.

joergd · June 26, 2006, 3:01am

It amazes me that people working on web sites, etc that are targeted at
the entire internet restrict their thinking to finding work locally.

You can find clients from all over the world if you market yourself well
(there are plenty of examples of very good designers/coders doing this).
I recently hired a company in Spain to perform some branding work, but I
am in Australia. If they do a good job they will get more work.

The world is your oyster. Keep a blog, publish your work. If you are
good people will approach you. You can charge what the market will bear
in another country.

Cheers and have fun!

Andrew

Rodrigo D. wrote:

WOW!!! WOWOWOWOWOW!!!

Well, I’m 24 years old, I have about 5 years of experience in
development, I program in c, c++, perl, php, python, java, .net, asp,
ruby, smalltalk, rails, etc.

By this time, I’m working in a great communications company in Argentina
(Iplan Networks), I’m a project leader, so I started to use ruby on
rails for my projects (in Argentina, most people doesn’t know what’s
ruby, and when you ask them about rails, they have no idea, so, it was
hard to sell ruby on rails to the company :P), I just earn U$S 8.3/hour,
but that’s a lot in Argentina.

I would love to work as a freelance programmer for any of you, and I can
even get cheaper (and really good) programmers for any project, they
would be really happy to work for U$S 5-8/Hour.

Rodrigo D.
ï¿½
Iplan Networks ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½Datos Personales
[email protected] ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½[email protected]
www.iplan.com.ar ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½www.rorra.com.ar
5031-6303 ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½15-5695-6027

-----Mensaje original-----
De: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] En nombre de Abdur-Rahman
Advany
Enviado el: Miï¿½rcoles, 21 de Junio de 2006 12:16 p.m.
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: Re: [Rails] Freelance Rate

Joerg,

What is your experience in other web development projects? I am 22, have

3/4 years java experience, 1 year of .net, 3 years php and about a year
rails experience. I live in the Netherlands (in U.S. loans are higher)
and charge 50 euro to 90 euro/hour for most projects. But some of my
friends that are developing full time (I am a parttime developer and
fulltime student) are charging 90 euro to 150 euro/hour. Its really rare

to find someone charging less then 45 euro/hour. I think most developers

are charging much more than I am…(but might have more experience)…

Abdul

Joerg D. wrote:

Hi,

Not sure where to address this question … but I guess this is a good

start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing
Rails
apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea
of
what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been
charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I
could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8
month
project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my
contract a little better.

Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme

know …

Thanks
Joerg

–
Abdur-Rahman A.
http://blog.railsdevelopment.com/

Rails mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails