Emacs: truly a textmate equivalent?

Rails
1

Guys,

In terms of the epic saga of vi versus emacs, I’ve always been a vi guy.
However, I’ve never taken my vi knowledge to the advanced level…I know
how
to get around and be dangerous and know some things, but mostly I have
around 20-30 key strokes available in muscle memory and that’s it.

For most of my coding, I’ve always preferred a more intuitive solution.
I
used UltraEdit for a long time on Windows for Java development, then
switched to Linux and went with JEdit, and finally Eclipse.

I use RadRails now and love it, but it is indeed heavy and I often look
over
at the Textmate crowd and wonder what I’m missing. No way in hell I’ll
ever
buy a Mac to get access to an editor…first, Macs are extremely
overpriced
and Os X is an upgrade from Windows but a downgrade from Linux (yes, I
have
used it. I felt like someone had reinstalled my training wheels without
my
knowledge). You will pry Linux and cheap x86 hardware from my cold dead
fingers thank you very much.

So…I hear that Emacs can do everything Textmate does and more.
Having
fallen on the vi side of things for so long, Emacs has been more of a
curiousity than anything else…now, I find myself eyeing it as a
possible
new tool to learn.

So, I ask the group…A. can emacs do everything Textmate does from a
Rails
perspective, and B. would you recommend it as the best Rails IDE-ish
thingy
for us Linux guys?

Thanks!

Jake

2

Jake. Get a mac. Just do it. No, not just for textmate. Do it
because life is easier on a mac.

Windows sucks because things just don’t work. Viruses run rampant,
spyware is targetted at them, and keeping your system running smooth
takes time. Windows just requires time.

Linux also requires time. Time to learn how to install this, time to
install that. Time to find compatible drivers for your newest
equipment, time to learn commands for new programs.

Macs, on the other hand, just work. Once upon a time, I hated macs
because I thought they dumbed everything down. I prided myself on
knowing everything about windows, to make it do what I want faster and
more efficiently. I looked down on mac users because I thought they
were so computer illiterate they needed everything done for them.

Well, I was right about having everything done for them - but not the
computer illiterate part. OS X does everything for me. I don’t spend
time cleaning it up, making it run faster, reformatting. I don’t spend
time finding out why a program or device won’t work on my computer. I
spend time enjoying myself. I spend time getting work done.

Now, I can’t trash talk Linux much, because it is a wonderful OS, and
if you really know what you’re doing it’s incredibly powerful. But for
me, I would rather spend time being productive.

I know this isn’t what you were asking at all, but I’m sure there’s a
lot of other Mac guys on this mailing list that will agree with me, and
would be happy to see another computer guy switch to mac and realize
what you are missing out on.

Are macs overpriced? Yes. Is every penny I spend on a mac worth it
because of the amount of time I save by using a mac? Without a doubt.
After 10 years of PC’s, 1 year of Macs has made me despise touching a
PC.

Respectfully,
Ben L.

3

I’ve never used textmate so I don’t know how it compares to emacs, but I
do
love emacs :slight_smile: The commands take awhile to get used to, but that’s simply
a
matter of time and “practice”. It’s really nice, for example, to be able
to
copy code from an editing buffer to a console buffer without having to
use
your mouse or leave emacs.

For rails, you’ll definitely want to install

emacs-rails is great - among other things, it lets you move around
related
files quickly. For example, if you’re in the “new” action of a
controller,
hitting alt-shift-up will take you to the associated view template, and
if
your cursor (point) is over a call to a partial, hitting ctrl-enter will
take
you to the partial. I believe it also offers tab completion, though that
might actually come from another extension.

Other helpful extensions are

  • ecb
  • semantic
  • color-theme
4

Oh, and TextMate rocks. Makes rails so much easier!

5

hehe… I just reread my post. Sorry for starting a holy war. You
know how cultish us mac guys are! It’s just that my experience has
been so incredible with them, I want to share it with other people.

-Ben

6

Your posts sound just like they were written by everyone on my team,
all of whom switched from a variety of Windows and Linux boxes to
Macintosh when we took up Rails development.

From what the other guy said though, it does indeed sound like Emacs
is getting to the same place TextMate is at, especially with nice
little hotkeys like the ctrl-shift-uparrow thing.

Horses for courses really, but you can run Emacs on a Mac too :wink:

7

hi there,

i´m a linux user and i have no plans for switching to a mac anytime
soon.
it´s just what i´m used to and i quite like it.

macs are great, too i guess…

but to the matters at hand:

it´s really hard to point you to a solution without more info on what
you are really missing in vi/m

i use vim for rails development all the time. and for the stuff i want
it to do it´s quite sufficient.
you can have a project file browser on the left side with the project
plugin.
and if you want to, you can have a c-tags based class browser on the
right side, too.
for the svn part of things i usually have a seperate xterm open.
some pointers on how to use vim more like an ide check this out:

http://wiki.rubyonrails.com/rails/pages/HowtoUseVimWithRails

also vim 7 supports code highlighting/completion for rhtml and rb files
pretty much out of the box.
for something more spiffy check here:
http://blog.hasno.info/blog/segfault/dev/2006/04/10/vim-7-ruby-omni-completion.html

and here:
http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=182

i don´t know if emacs can do all that stuff better… never really used
emacs…
just wanted to give you some pointers on what can be achieved in vim,
too.

kind regards and good luck finding the work environment you like,

alexander

8

On 8/22/06, Jake C. [email protected] wrote:

In terms of the epic saga of vi versus emacs, I’ve always been a vi guy.
However, I’ve never taken my vi knowledge to the advanced level…I know how
to get around and be dangerous and know some things, but mostly I have
around 20-30 key strokes available in muscle memory and that’s it.

[…]

So, I ask the group…A. can emacs do everything Textmate does from a
Rails

perspective, and B. would you recommend it as the best Rails IDE-ish thingy
for us Linux guys?

Beef up that modal-editing muscle memory with vim7 and Time Pope’s
inimitable rails.vim plugin:
Error : vim online

It’s great, especially in tandem with project.vim. Easily flip between
model/units/migration/fixture and controller/functionals, run the
appropriate test for the open buffer with just :Rake, enjoy the
Rails-specific highlighting, pop open the console for a quick
experiment,
the list goes on.

jeremy

9

On 8/22/06, Ben L. [email protected] wrote:

Jake. Get a mac. Just do it. No, not just for textmate. Do it
because life is easier on a mac.

I have a mac…or, well, my wife does. I spend quite a bit of time on
it,
because it’s conveniently positioned in the family room, and because
she is
not a computer person.

Windows sucks because things just don’t work. Viruses run rampant,

spyware is targetted at them, and keeping your system running smooth
takes time. Windows just requires time.

Agreed.

Linux also requires time. Time to learn how to install this, time to

install that. Time to find compatible drivers for your newest
equipment, time to learn commands for new programs.

I would’ve agreed with your argument 2 years ago, and there are still a
few
rough edges, but I think desktop Linux has truly arrived. Ubuntu and its
ilk
have made system administration and package installation
easier…yes…EASIER, than Mac OS X. I speak from the perspective of
having done both…trust me. There is nothing on Mac that compares to
Ubuntu
(and thus, Debian’s) package management system (if not fink, which is
the
Mac port of Debian’s packaging system.

Macs, on the other hand, just work. Once upon a time, I hated macs

because I thought they dumbed everything down. I prided myself on
knowing everything about windows, to make it do what I want faster and
more efficiently. I looked down on mac users because I thought they
were so computer illiterate they needed everything done for them.

I don’t look down on Mac users at all. To each his own. I might smirk
from
time to time thinking about how much they overpaid for aesthetics (and
machine aesthetics…not GUI. Linux GUI is coming along quite nicely).

Well, I was right about having everything done for them - but not the

computer illiterate part. OS X does everything for me. I don’t spend
time cleaning it up, making it run faster, reformatting. I don’t spend
time finding out why a program or device won’t work on my computer. I
spend time enjoying myself. I spend time getting work done.

To a certain extent, I agree. OS X usually works. But when it doesn’t,
you
quickly realize the benefits of having the source at hand, and the
drawbacks
of NOT having the source. You sacrifice an overwhelming amount of
flexibility when going to a Mac. And you anchor yourself to a product,
not a
Movement. I prefer the later.

Now, I can’t trash talk Linux much, because it is a wonderful OS, and

if you really know what you’re doing it’s incredibly powerful. But for
me, I would rather spend time being productive.

I’m with you, but I find Linux to be more productive. Again, to each his
own.

I know this isn’t what you were asking at all, but I’m sure there’s a

lot of other Mac guys on this mailing list that will agree with me, and
would be happy to see another computer guy switch to mac and realize
what you are missing out on.

It’s really not, and I’d really, really like to avoid hijacking this
thread
to push a product I don’t really care for :wink: . It’s miles ahead of
Windows,
but a bit behind Linux in my experience. So please, let’s get back to
the
original questions.

Are macs overpriced? Yes. Is every penny I spend on a mac worth it

because of the amount of time I save by using a mac? Without a doubt.
After 10 years of PC’s, 1 year of Macs has made me despise touching a
PC.

We’ll agree to disagree here. Thanks!

Jake

10

On 8/22/06, Jake C. [email protected] wrote:

I use RadRails now and love it, but it is indeed heavy and I often look over
at the Textmate crowd and wonder what I’m missing. No way in hell I’ll ever
buy a Mac to get access to an editor…first, Macs are extremely overpriced
and Os X is an upgrade from Windows but a downgrade from Linux (yes, I have
used it. I felt like someone had reinstalled my training wheels without my
knowledge). You will pry Linux and cheap x86 hardware from my cold dead
fingers thank you very much.

Is $599 overpriced??? You can do EVERYTHING in MacOs you can do in
Linux. That includes running ALL the software. Unless of course they
were written by an idiot who specifically wrote the software for
Fedora Core 3 or something stupid like that. I’m a long time Linux
server admin and I managed multiple Linux workstations for a post
production division. First thing I did was to remove all those
advanced KDE features and stuff that were very cool but somehow just
ended up being in the way. In my feeling MacOS is what Linux should
aspire to be. You still have the advanced features but you are not
forced to spend half your day configuring them. But to your real
question.

So, I ask the group…A. can emacs do everything Textmate does from a Rails
perspective, and B. would you recommend it as the best Rails IDE-ish thingy
for us Linux guys?
Definitely the best you got on Linux. The power of TextMate does not
lie in its snippets system (although awesome). The real power lies in
it’s vast and amazing text handling. The stuff you can do and all the
shortcuts and little things that just makes your life easier. emacs is
not only the best alternative. It’s the only other thing in this class
of text editors in the world. period. Of course. Some people find all
the other features of IDE’s more important but I find that 90% of my
time I’m writing some text. So text handling is a lot more important.

–

Jon Gretar B.
http://www.jongretar.net/

11

Rimantas L. wrote:

<…>

…first, Macs are extremely overpriced

will this myth ever die?

That is not a myth, that is a fact, atleast in my country (Norway).

My notebook, a HP pavillion dv6060ea, has 120GB harddrive, 1GB RAM, Dual
Core AMD Turion X2 processor 1,8Ghz (roughly same as Intel 2,2Ghz),
15.4" WXGA (1280x800) screen, and 128MB Nvidia Go 7200 graphics(which
run WoW just fine, thank you very much) at 9.995 NOK (roughly $1580).

A Macbook Pro with 15.4 WXGA, ATI X1600 graphics, Intel Core Duo 2,1
Ghz, 1GB RAM and 120GB harddrive comes at 22.310 NOK (roughly $3540).

Both prices include our sky-high 25% Sales tax.

Will you keep saying macs are not overpriced?

If it weren’t for the price (I’d accept a 20% price jump for design and
aesthetics, but 120%? COME ON!) I’d be a Mac user today. Apple clearly
has no plans on taking over the world, so MS can just rest easy for now.

Regards,
Henning K.

12

<…>

…first, Macs are extremely overpriced

will this myth ever die?

and Os X is an upgrade from Windows but a downgrade from Linux (yes, I have
used it. I felt like someone had reinstalled my training wheels without my
knowledge).
<…>

Well, if you’re more intersted in hacking your OS - stay with Linux.
If you like your job done -
buy a Mac. :wink:

Regards,
Rimantas

http://rimantas.com/

13

On 8/22/06, Rimantas L. [email protected] wrote:

Well, if you’re more intersted in hacking your OS - stay with Linux.
If you like your job done -
buy a Mac. :wink:

Listen, I will not drink the koolaid. I will not take the blue pill. I
have
lived on both sides of this fence, and I know what BS smells like.

I have not had to hack on my Linux boxen in years. They just work. If OS
X
works for you, great, but don’t drag Linux’s name through the mud just
because you’re an Apple fanboy.

Sheesh, people, let’s get back to the much less controversial vim vs.
emacs
vs. textmate discussion. :wink:

Jake

14

On 8/22/06, Henning K. [email protected] wrote:

My notebook, a HP pavillion dv6060ea, has 120GB harddrive, 1GB RAM, Dual
Core AMD Turion X2 processor 1,8Ghz (roughly same as Intel 2,2Ghz), 15.4"
WXGA (1280x800) screen, and 128MB Nvidia Go 7200 graphics(which run WoW just
fine, thank you very much) at 9.995 NOK (roughly $1580).

A Macbook Pro with 15.4 WXGA, ATI X1600 graphics, Intel Core Duo 2,1 Ghz,
1GB RAM and 120GB harddrive comes at 22.310 NOK (roughly $3540).

Ok… Now try comparing with and ACTUAL comparable machine. Do HP or
Dell with the same processor and the same everything. They actually
make similar macines with the same processor and so on. I just don’t
understand why you picked this one. I live in Iceland and I did those
comparisons here and I found the prices to be similar. But compare to
the standard MacBook and there is no competition. There are simply
nothing in the pricerange of the MacBook standard except some outdated
computers.

–

Jon Gretar B.
http://www.jongretar.net/

15

I really wasn’t going to start a war here. But since I already
answered you earlier I find that I have the right to point out a few
simple factual errors.

On 8/22/06, Jake C. [email protected] wrote:

I would’ve agreed with your argument 2 years ago, and there are still a few
rough edges, but I think desktop Linux has truly arrived. Ubuntu and its ilk
have made system administration and package installation
easier…yes…EASIER, than Mac OS X. I speak from the perspective of
having done both…trust me. There is nothing on Mac that compares to Ubuntu
(and thus, Debian’s) package management system (if not fink, which is the
Mac port of Debian’s packaging system.

I don’t think anyone uses fink anymore. We have our own called ports.
It’s far the simplest I have tested. Heck it’s 5 times simpler that
using gem or apt.

I don’t look down on Mac users at all. To each his own. I might smirk from
time to time thinking about how much they overpaid for aesthetics (and
machine aesthetics…not GUI. Linux GUI is coming along quite nicely).

Good design does not mean aesthetics. A good design is something that
functions well and looks good doing it. Unlike my experiences with
Linux features that either functioned well or looked good. Never both.
The reason why I stopped using Linux was that I was tired of always
configuring. And I used Ubuntu damnit that was a dream compared to the
other distros. Installing was nicer with Ubuntu though. Unless of
course something didn’t work. Which happened a few times.

To a certain extent, I agree. OS X usually works. But when it doesn’t, you
quickly realize the benefits of having the source at hand, and the drawbacks
of NOT having the source.

You know. I have heard this argument so many times. But actually when
I pressure people they admit that they have never looked at a single
line of Linux code. Sure. A few codes in apps but you have that also
in MacOS. When an installation of Ubuntu fails do you actually go to
the repository and check out the code??? I seriously doubt that.

Are macs overpriced? Yes. Is every penny I spend on a mac worth it
because of the amount of time I save by using a mac? Without a doubt.
After 10 years of PC’s, 1 year of Macs has made me despise touching a
PC.
We’ll agree to disagree here. Thanks!

You can’t argue with numbers Jake. Macs just simply aren’t overpriced.
It’s exactly the same price as computers from other companies in the
same caliber. Of course you can find better prices by buying from a
some noname company or building your own PC. But that’s just a stupid
waste of time.

–

Jon Gretar B.
http://www.jongretar.net/

16

On 8/22/06, Jon Gretar B. [email protected] wrote:

I don’t think anyone uses fink anymore. We have our own called ports.
It’s far the simplest I have tested. Heck it’s 5 times simpler that
using gem or apt.

My mistake…I’ll have to take a look.

Good design does not mean aesthetics. A good design is something that

functions well and looks good doing it. Unlike my experiences with
Linux features that either functioned well or looked good. Never both.
The reason why I stopped using Linux was that I was tired of always
configuring. And I used Ubuntu damnit that was a dream compared to the
other distros. Installing was nicer with Ubuntu though. Unless of
course something didn’t work. Which happened a few times.

I’m not sure you have a point here. Can you tell me how anything on Mac
OS X
is better “designed” than on Ubuntu? Take Apple’s terminal versus
Gnome’s.
Apple’s is so lacking in features it’s sad…iTerm is better but locks
itself up after an hour or so…

It’s all subjective, but I personally thing Ubuntu functions well and
looks good. I run it on my work laptop and my home desktop and haven’t
had
one issue out of it in two years. I can’t say the same out of OS X, or
the
miserably crappy hardware I paid twice market value for in the eCraps
I
have at home.

Again, Linux versus OS X aside, the Apple hardware leaves a lot to be
desired. Sure, I bought the lowest priced at the time, but I paid $1800
for
something that would’ve cost me $500 from Dell. Two months after I
bought
it, the monitor started emitted a high pitched squeal that made me want
to
drive an ice pick into my temple. I tried to contact Apple support, but
unless you pay for their extended support you can’t call them (or you
couldn’t at the time). They didn’t even make a support number available.
I
emailed them, and they told me to take it to their local authorized
support
agent (CompUSA here locally). I took it to CompUSA, and they ran Apple’s
diagnostic software on it and came back with no errors (of course
monitor
squeals don’t emit errors). Given this they said there was nothing they
could do…per Apple’s policy the machine was working as it should, and
Apple would not fix the squeal unless the monitor died. They said I
could
try upgrading my support package and call Apple directly. I refused.
After
another month of miserable squealing, my wife even refused to use the
machine. I bucked up and threw Apple the $160. Two days later, before
calling the support, the squealing disappeared.

Bad luck aside, I’m not at all impressed with Apple’s hardware…NOR
with
their customer support. Searching the forums about my issue found many
people in a similar boat, and each were given the same “go pound sand”
directive from Apple.

You know. I have heard this argument so many times. But actually when

I pressure people they admit that they have never looked at a single
line of Linux code. Sure. A few codes in apps but you have that also
in MacOS. When an installation of Ubuntu fails do you actually go to
the repository and check out the code??? I seriously doubt that.

We’re not just talking OS here. While I have opened up the code, I’d
have
to admit I was horribly unproductive at it, but was able to fix an issue
or
two following other’s post instructions. However, there are many times
when
I’d like to fix a userland tool or simply understand what it’s doing on
the
Mac and can’t because the source is not available. On Linux, I’m not
blocked
in this way. Simply reading the source for insight into a tool’s
operations
is sometimes invaluable.

You can’t argue with numbers Jake. Macs just simply aren’t overpriced.

It’s exactly the same price as computers from other companies in the
same caliber. Of course you can find better prices by buying from a
some noname company or building your own PC. But that’s just a stupid
waste of time.

I call BS. You can buy much more machine for a much lower price by not
buying from Apple. I’ll leave that exercise up to you, but it’s true.

Please people…I’ll defend my assertions, but no where in the subject
did I
ever say “OS X versus Linux: what are your thoughts”? Perhaps I’ve added
some fuel here, but can we please divert back to the original topic.

And, Jon, I do appreciate your comments on emacs.

Jake

17

the standard MacBook and there is no competition. There are simply
nothing in the pricerange of the MacBook standard except some outdated
computers.

you can build an ASUS or MSI barebones for cheaper then the ‘non-pro’
macbook with the power of the ‘pro’ costing twice as much. by ‘build’, i
mean remove the keyboard with a screwdriver, click in the hd, ram, chip,
and wireless card, and close it back up. it was definitely worth it for
me, as im not into paying for copies of OSX or XP that i won’t be using,
or a 20gb hd or 256 mb dimm that im just going to remove anyway since
the upgrades are never affordable in ‘build to order’.

i still thnk ~699 USD is a bit steep for a chassis and a mobo and a
screen, but its still cheaper than anything but a plasticy hunk of HP
crap after you add a few hundred dollars in newegg parts…

as for emacs, my introduction was when it was the only editor installed
on a work machine besides vi. the main reason i use it is nobody else
gets indent right. ive tried it everywhere, about 50% of editors even
have an ‘emacs style’ tab, which claims to be but isnt. that and its
nice that it understands the syntax of every file i’ll ever open.
whether its /etc/make.conf, aclocal.m4, some file that is 30% python 40%
html 30% javascript, or even plain ol’ ruby/tcl/scheme/sh…

as for OS, i ran Mac OS from 1992 to 2001, XP from 2001-2005, and Linux
from 2005 onwards, since i think during those respective times, the OSes
were the leaders in usability, functionality, flexibility, performance,
and cool apps…for a user interested in
art/design/music/software-creation…

18

On 8/22/06, Jon Gretar B. [email protected] wrote:

Definitely the best you got on Linux. The power of TextMate does not
lie in its snippets system (although awesome). The real power lies in
it’s vast and amazing text handling. The stuff you can do and all the
shortcuts and little things that just makes your life easier. emacs is
not only the best alternative. It’s the only other thing in this class
of text editors in the world. period. Of course. Some people find all
the other features of IDE’s more important but I find that 90% of my
time I’m writing some text. So text handling is a lot more important.

So do you think Emacs stands up to Textmate apples for apples? Is there
anything Textmate can do that Emacs can’t?

Curious as well…how do you feel vim compares?

I’m honestly not looking for a holy war, only your honest opinion.

Thanks,
Jake

19

On 8/23/06, Jake C. [email protected] wrote:

On 8/22/06, Jon Gretar B. [email protected] wrote:
So do you think Emacs stands up to Textmate apples for apples? Is there
anything Textmate can do that Emacs can’t?

Well… I am no emacs expert for starters. I’m not gonna claim to have
used it extensively for many years writing millions of lines of code.
But I have used it and many things in Textmate feel similar to both
emacs and vim. Actually it’s worth when using TextMate to actually try
to do use a emacs or vim shortcuts. ctrl+f or b will move your cursor
in similar ways, ctrl+g will change case, ctrl+w will select current
word and so on. TextMate takes a lot from both those editors in terms
of allowing you never to touch the mouse again. But I like my software
to look good and I prefer the editor to only be complex when I’m doing
complex things. emacs is always in professional mode. emacs and vim
are horrific when all you wanted to do was to open up a short
notes.txt file and write your friends phone number. :slight_smile:

Curious as well…how do you feel vim compares?
vim I’m sure compares fine. Except that vim is horrificly complex and
not easy to learn. vim just isn’t really friendly. It’s powerful as
hell but it’s offputting to people who don’t know it. Because if you
don’t know how it works you don’t even find a way to exit the damn
software to find the manual. :slight_smile: TextMate allows you to use it as
simply as notepad but when you start having the need to make more
complex things you find that those features were there all along. It
jut didn’t foce you to use them until you were ready.

I’m honestly not looking for a holy war, only your honest opinion.

Well… I just honestly thought some of your other comments were plain
wrong. I reccomend to you that next time if you don’t want to start a
discussion about mac vs. Linux, then don’t start it. Remember that you
started by making claims that MacOs was years behind Linux and that
Apple was overpriced and a few more comments. You say that only few
sentences after claiming that you DON’T want the discussion to revolve
around those things.
If you don’t want a holy war. Don’t bomb the church. :wink:

–

Jon Gretar B.
http://www.jongretar.net/

20

OK. You keep asking, here’s my two cents. I’m a longtime emacs guy,
who’s spent a lot of time on Macs as well as *nix. By choice, I use
textmate for ruby and rails coding. I use emacs for lisp and some
shell stuff and general word-processing. I do not believe that there
is anything that either can do that the other can’t. I do believe
that there are things that are easier to do on one than the other
because other people have taken the time to do them well. Textmate is
just much nicer and easier for Rails and Web stuff. I could probably
get a similar environment in emacs, but it would involve installing a
lot of elisp and configuring it and life is short.

As for vi and vim, I’ve just never liked them and avoid them if
possible. Too modal; harder to extend/customise.

…
…
John B.