Confession: I never learned CS

Ruby
1

I was thinking about my “Detecting number ranges” question and the
various
answers to it; I was also reading Steve Yegge’s old but excellent “five
essential phone-screen questions”
(steve yegge - five-essential-phone-screen-questions).
And I realized something: In my 30-odd years of programming, I never
learned the stuff I think of as “Computer Science”.

In the very beginning, I was on a Commodore using BASIC or ML, so there
was
no such thing as data structures or recursion or parsing. Naturally.

But unlike most folks who went on to C, C++, LISP and/or Java before
coming
to Ruby, I spent most of the next 15 years in PL/1, working on a
ridiculously high-volume distributed system, using relatively slow CPUs,
that had to have sub-second response times.

So I never learned big-O notation. I mean, I know what it means, but I
couldn’t tell you what data structures are logarithmic and what data
structures are exponential, because we had exactly four kinds of data
structures: arrays, short linked lists, hash tables and everything else.
And those ran at four speeds, respectively: instant, fast, fast and way
too
slow.

Parsing was likewise out of the picture. Any data I munched on had to
be
pre-formatted in a structure that precisely matched the in-memory
structure
it was being loaded into. The operating system even provided a standard
tool to describe “field-value” style tables and compile them into a
binary
data file of repeated structs. Any notions of “parse trees” were out of
the question; only towards the end did we finally get fast enough
processors to consider occasionally scanning long strings for tokens.
And without parsing, there’s little use for recursion.

And now I’ve jumped headfirst into the world of Ruby and modern CPUs,
where
an interpreted language can parse itself, and I don’t even know where to
start learning everything I missed. I’m not about to go learn LISP,
even
though I’m sure it would be a fun experience - I’ve seen enough LISP in
my
emacs startup to know it’s not for me.

Yet I know I have much to learn, because I approach too many problems
with
an iterative, loop-based approach, when Ruby has such nice tools for
parsing and list-processing and analysis.

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

2

On 9/26/07, Jay L. [email protected] wrote:

Yet I know I have much to learn, because I approach too many problems with
an iterative, loop-based approach, when Ruby has such nice tools for
parsing and list-processing and analysis.

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

Big hunks of it are fundamentally unlike Ruby, but that’s probably a
good thing for your brain.
This book is a work of genius that I think every ‘serious’ programmer
should own: http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/book.html
Sorry if that sounds too over-the-top. :slight_smile:

3

On Sep 26, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Jay L. wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the
way I
think about data?

http://www.amazon.com/Expert-Programming-Peter-van-Linden/dp/0131774298

http://www.amazon.com/Design-Patterns-Object-Oriented-Addison-Wesley-
Professional/dp/0201633612/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1681521-1481518?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190842864&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Reference-Manual-Samuel-P-Harbison/dp/
013089592X/ref=pd_sim_b_1_img/104-1681521-1481518

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Algorithms-Thomas-H-Cormen/dp/
0262032937/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-1681521-1481518?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190842923&sr=1-2

books you cannot live without.

cheers.

a @ http://drawohara.com/

4

It all depends. Learn what you need. You don’t necessarily need all
those books.
They won’t hurt you. (unless you try to carry more than 2 of them at
any time)
But you can learn a lot from other people’s code and from browsing
used bookstores.
Many of the algorithms and design patterns covered don’t change all
that much.
You don’t have to know everything to do stuff.
Data structures tend to differ somewhat depending on the language
(and framework) you are using.
Probably the best thing to do for data structures is just run through
some C books. Then hit a C Data structures book. That will give you a
lot right there. But it all really depends on what you want or need
to do. Much of it you may never actually use.

5

On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 06:42:54AM +0900, ara.t.howard wrote:

On Sep 26, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Jay L. wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the
way I
think about data?

http://www.amazon.com/Expert-Programming-Peter-van-Linden/dp/0131774298

This book is so much fun to read. I love the stories, I mean where else
are you going to learn about cron implemented in a lego brick.

enjoy,

-jeremy

6

On Sep 26, 2007, at 8:32 PM, David B. Williams wrote:

brpreiss.com

David B. Williams
http://www.cybersprocket.com

–
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Cool!
I’m reading that one starting… now!

7

Jay L. wrote:

Yet I know I have much to learn, because I approach too many problems with
an iterative, loop-based approach, when Ruby has such nice tools for
parsing and list-processing and analysis.

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

It’s worth going back to basics and watching the MIT SICP lectures.
They got a lot of ideas I thought I knew straight in my head, and a lot
of things that I thought were complicated turned out to be really
simple. There’s also a free copy of the textbook that goes with it
online.

The book: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
The lectures:
http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/

8

On Sep 27, 2007, at 1:38 AM, Alex Y. wrote:

They got a lot of ideas I thought I knew straight in my head, and a

Berkely and MIT both have huge numbers of classes available as free
podcasts, both through iTunes and through their own web sites. Some
as videos.
The recording quality has even improved to the point of being
listenable!

9

On 9/27/07, Jay L. [email protected] wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

I’m currently “reading” (i.e. turning two pages now and then)
Programming Language Pragmatics, and it’s a good look at
how programming languages work.

http://www.cs.rochester.edu/~scott/pragmatics/

Introduction to Algorithms was a great book too.
I heard Okasaki’s Purely Functional Data Structures
recommended as well.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/theses/okasaki.pdf

HTH,

10

Jay L. wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

If you want a book that deals with Ruby and the fundamentals you would
learn in any introduction to data structures and algorithms course, try
this:

http://www.brpreiss.com/books/opus8/

David B. Williams
http://www.cybersprocket.com

11

On 9/27/07, Jay L. [email protected] wrote:

  • Data Structures and Algorithms (Preiss): I’m a little turned off by the
    hard-to-read pixelated LaTex GIFs, the lack of a print version or even the
    right to download it, the lack of a solutions manual, the web-0.5 FSF-style
    page navigation, and the fact that the first “Ruby” code I saw defines its
    own “abstract_method” declaration, which makes me think that the Ruby
    “version” is more like a Babelfish translation of the Java version. (My
    web site: Now in Senegalese!) OK, so I’m more than a little turned off.
    Probably bears reading anyway, though.

Yeah, the obvious “blind” translation turned me off the book too. I’d
actually start by reading “How to Design Programs” (scheme, but very
well designed and written), and then try doing some of the exercises
both in scheme and in ruby.

martin

12

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:57:08 +0900, Ilmari H. wrote:

On 9/27/07, Jay L. [email protected] wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

Wow! Thanks for the many great recommendations, folks. Some comments:

  • GoF: Yes, I have this one, and it’s a classic; I’ve actually read both
    of
    the Alexander books cover-to-cover while I was building a house. But I
    also find that many of the GoF patterns are either unnecessary or
    greatly
    simplified in Ruby. I know there’s at least one project to codify the
    Ruby
    equivalents, and I look forward to more work in that area.

  • C programming books: I guess I didn’t mention that I’ve got over a
    dozen
    C and C++ books; I was following along on paper, I just never did much
    work
    in those languages, and the books didn’t really “change my thinking”.
    Great recommendation for someone who’s truly jumped straight into Ruby,
    though.

  • Intro to Algorithms: I know it’s the classic work, but I also see a
    huge
    number of complaints on Amazon about the lack of provided solutions and
    followup information; seems like it’s intended more for a classroom
    setting
    than as a self-study guide. I also admit a bias against older books;
    technology writing has greatly improved as the field’s expanded, and I
    find
    it difficult to go back and read something like Date or K&R today.
    (Well,
    Date was always tough.) Now, if Scott Meyers (Effective C++/STL) ever
    wrote an algorithms book, that would be a best seller. Any thoughts?

  • Data Structures and Algorithms (Preiss): I’m a little turned off by
    the
    hard-to-read pixelated LaTex GIFs, the lack of a print version or even
    the
    right to download it, the lack of a solutions manual, the web-0.5
    FSF-style
    page navigation, and the fact that the first “Ruby” code I saw defines
    its
    own “abstract_method” declaration, which makes me think that the Ruby
    “version” is more like a Babelfish translation of the Java version. (My
    web site: Now in Senegalese!) OK, so I’m more than a little turned off.
    Probably bears reading anyway, though.

  • SICP, Programming Language Pragmatics (Scott), Purely Functional Data
    Structures (Okasaki), Concepts, Techniques and Models (Van Roy, Haridi):
    These look like must-reads!

13

On 9/27/07, Jay L. [email protected] wrote:

the Alexander books cover-to-cover while I was building a house. But I
also find that many of the GoF patterns are either unnecessary or greatly
simplified in Ruby. I know there’s at least one project to codify the Ruby
equivalents, and I look forward to more work in that area.

I’ve got to agree here. I am/was friends with all four of the GOF and
I hope that the three survivors won’t be offended, but it’s really a
C++ book, and I fear that it has done as much harm as good for those
trying to apply it to languages with less draconian (or is it baroque)
design. Although Ralph put in some Smalltalk references they were
mostly in the way of commentary when they were trying to do similar
things in C++.

Patterns are all about picking paths due to the problem and situation
at hand, and for better or worse, the programming language is a big
part of the situation at hand. Most of the GOF book deals with the
issues raised by statically typed oo languages, and aren’t as portable
as one might think.

–
Rick DeNatale

My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/

14

On Sep 27, 2007, at 4:18 PM, Rick DeNatale wrote:

this:

brpreiss.com

A big -1 on that book. It’s been discussed here before.

It’s part of a series in which the author treats different languages
as plug-in replacements. It’s not at all a good ruby resource.

Indeed I just read through it today and it is not good.

The html is horrible too. Contacted the author and he was pretty
“whatever” about it because the LaTeX2html software is apparently no
longer being updated…
So he’s obviously too lazy to pick up xhtml and css in an afternoon
and / or simply use one of the languages he writes about with one of
the many converters in those language to produce a better site.

He’s pretty wrong about Ruby though. He unfortunately describes
everything as if it’s C++ but Ruby is whole different beast. Some
things are similar in ways that any programming language or OOP
paradigm are similar, but every language has its own vernacular and
for good reason: they’re different and require different approaches.

There are better exercises in data structures out there, and
definitely better discussions of Ruby.

15

On 9/26/07, David B. Williams [email protected] wrote:

Jay L. wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

If you want a book that deals with Ruby and the fundamentals you would
learn in any introduction to data structures and algorithms course, try
this:

brpreiss.com

A big -1 on that book. It’s been discussed here before.

It’s part of a series in which the author treats different languages
as plug-in replacements. It’s not at all a good ruby resource.

–
Rick DeNatale

My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/

16

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:31:47 +0900, “Rick DeNatale”
[email protected] wrote:

Most of the GOF book deals with the issues raised by statically
typed oo languages, and aren’t as portable as one might think.

I’d submit the issues have more to do with the lack of “nice”
higher-order functions than they do with object orientation or
static typing.

For instance: the Visitor pattern suddenly becomes trivial when
you have HoFs for traversal (Enumerable#each, anyone?).

-mental

17

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:43:24 +0900, John J. wrote:

The html is horrible too. Contacted the author and he was pretty
“whatever” about it because the LaTeX2html software is apparently no
longer being updated…

I had exactly the same problem with EasyScript.[1]

[1] The best word processor available for a Commodore 64, bar none.

18

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:26:42 -0400, Jay L. wrote:

I had exactly the same problem with EasyScript.[1]

[1] The best word processor available for a Commodore 64, bar none.

Correction: SpeedScript.

19

On 9/27/07, Rick DeNatale [email protected] wrote:

part of the situation at hand. Most of the GOF book deals with the
issues raised by statically typed oo languages, and aren’t as portable
as one might think.

I know I might be off a little bit, but I’d rather recommend a book of
a different friend of your’s “Smalltalk Best Practices” by Kent Beck.
I know it is not about Design Patterns but Micro Patterns, I know it
is not about Ruby but about Smalltalk.
Anyway Kent calls Ruby Smalltalk in disguise for some reasons, I am of
course referring to the “Smalltalk beating Java and being called Ruby”
saying.

Honestly I am only through the half of the book but there is just no
item so far I would not apply to Ruby.

This book is a must read anyway, gotta read all of his books :wink:

Cheers
Robert

20

On 9/28/07, Robert D. [email protected] wrote:

Patterns are all about picking paths due to the problem and situation
course referring to the “Smalltalk beating Java and being called Ruby”
saying.

Honestly I am only through the half of the book but there is just no
item so far I would not apply to Ruby.

This book is a must read anyway, gotta read all of his books :wink:

The book’s correct title is “Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns”, and I
would like to second the recommendation. Gianni Jacklone turned me
onto it a couple of years ago, and I really found it helpful.