[ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web Development with Rails

Rails
41

On Wed, 3 May 2006 16:22:19 -0400, Scott B. wrote:

Not all of these are good analogies.

Who cares? Analogies are approximations, and each of the ones I gave
are approximately accurate.

OK. Let me try.

Let’s say I buy a pound of pickled herring from Schmendrick’s Deli on
July
1st. Now, I use two cups of that herring in a salad that I make on July
2nd. I eat half of that salad the same day, but freeze the rest.

Meanwhile, on the 7th, I buy some gefilte fish - but not from
Schmendrick’s, because his gefilte, at $2.69 a pound, is too mealy.
Morty’s, which is only 20 minutes by foot from Schmendrick’s, has
gefilte
you could die for, and only costs 14 cents more per pound - but he is
using
Canadian dollars.

Now, I combine half a cubit of the leftover herring with three lumps of
gefilte fish. I serve it for lunch, and who should show up to lunch
but
Schmendrick himself? Only he can’t eat the herring - it gives him gas.
So
instead he eats some gefilte fish. Do I charge him?

The original herring, of course, is Rails 1.0, and I think the rest is
obvious.

Jay L.

42

I would imagine that if Dave and co. over there wanted to, they could
query
their order system to find out how many folks bought revision one and
then
bought revision two. They could then determine from that information if
this
is a strategy they want to try again when another revision comes out.

I think they will, because it makes good business sense. I’ll be
purchasing
my copy today because it has things that will make me more money.

The main reason I think that this will work though, is that we trust the
authors. We trust them not to steer us wrong and to guide us. With the
first edition, we learned a lot of good techniques. Now, I could go get
a
book from another author that covers Rails 1.1, RJS, and some other
really
funky stuff, but I won’t because I can get it in a revised edition from
authors I know.

Plus, this book coming out is perfect for me, as I occasionally train
developers. It was getting harder to talk about Migrations as a good
practice when they’re not in the “bible”.

Just my .02

43

Dave T. wrote:

On May 3, 2006, at 3:08 PM, Ajai Khattri wrote:

If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I
would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife '06) from
Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get “free” software
updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book
might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily upgradeable.

And tis is exactly what we modeled our approach on.

If you bought a PDF within a month of the announcement, we gave you a
complementary upgrade.

If you buy a PDF, you get free revisions for the life of that edition.

When a new edition comes along, it’s a cost item.

Exactly as it is for Apple software.

I’m a customer thinking about how a publisher’s pricing policy should
be; that’s my caveat.

What aspects of the pricing policy will cause prospective customers not
to buy the current product or similar future products?
What aspects of the pricing policy will cause the lost of goodwill even
from those who buy the current products because they are tied to it
(it’s a 2nd edition) but may want to remember the current experience?

It’s all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1 shortly
before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
edition. Companies don’t want that cash flow gap. Remember the Osborne
Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
AWDwR1?

Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
are an asset – they believe in the product even if incomplete, if happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the interest
in the product.

.02

44

On May 5, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Gene K. wrote:

are an asset – they believe in the product even if incomplete, if
happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the
interest
in the product.

I’d like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we’re
doing the right thing by you all.

Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.

This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I’m
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.

I’m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst—I
thought folks would actually be excited.

Dave

45

Thanks, Dave, for updating the Agile book. It’s really needed as a lot
has
improved with Rails since the first edition (which I bought from
PragProg
and found very useful). In my opinion, you’re perfectly right in saying
that
you’re doing a favor to the community by updating the book even though
you
could ride longer on the sales of the first edition. And the $2 or $5 or
whatever that people might have saved with a discount doesn’t really
make
any difference to them in the overall scheme of things. But people
aren’t
always swayed by reason, and what matters is their perception of
reality,
not reality itself. I think that a small discount (maybe 10%) would have
been a good marketing idea simply because it caters to people’s
perception
and makes people feel good whether or not they actually need the
discount or
would have bought it anyway. In any case, I’m sure the second edition
will
sell just fine, and those who complain will get over it and upgrade, so
no
worries :-).

46

I talk a lot about building the Ruby community, and try to put in the
effort to back up my words, but in this case, I think I’ve fallen down
on the job.

On 5/5/06, Dave T. [email protected] wrote:

I’d like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,

It certainly does. It produces better books, builds the sense of
community
and gets the book into the hands of users faster.

and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we’re
doing the right thing by you all.

Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.

I think this was a tremendous move on your part. Not only did you
insulate
people from buying a soon to be obsoleted book for a considerable period
of time (I can’t imagine another publisher doing that), but you are
again
getting needed information into the community earlier than otherwise
possible.
I’ve been shocked that you guys have taken such a beating over this.

This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I’m
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.

I’m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst—I
thought folks would actually be excited.

Though I don’t do much (if anything) with Rails, I’m really excited to
see
on the horizon what promises to be another great book for the Ruby and
Rails
community.

Thanks!

Dave

–
-pate

47

the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.

This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I’m
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.

I’m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst—I
thought folks would actually be excited.

Honestly Dave, I love the Prag. Bookshelf, I’m gradually collecting
the whole damn thing, and for what it’s worth, I think the community’s
response to your news is utterly appalling.

I think you underestimated the value of what you had to sell,
underpriced it, and are now seeing it undervalued in the marketplace.

I’d say just publish v2 as an update-only edition, and skip discounts
entirely.

–
Giles B.
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org

48

I think the beta book program is just fantastic and the time I save
by getting access to your work is worth SO much more than the cost of
what you are selling that the $50 I spent on the combopack is
practically irrelevant.

This list has many many people and what normally generates the will
to post is a scratch – a problem of some sorts. You can’t make
simple generalizations from he distributions of opinion in a comment
thread. That doesn’t mean that you should ignore the comments either
however.

Ultimately the sales you get will help inform your business
decisions. If there are enough people like me your sales will prove
you made the right decisions.

I don’t expect this to be true but if Rails changes and expands as
much in the next year as it has in the last year I’ll happily buy
more of your work next year.

49

On 5/5/06, Dave T. [email protected] wrote:

I’d like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,

Rails mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

I’m one of the people to initially say it’d be nice to get some kind
of discount.

I also ordered the combo pack yesterday :slight_smile:

Bottom line, you guys consistently produce the highest quality books
of any publisher I’ve encountered. Your beta program is spectacular -
we want/need this info NOW, and even though you’re probably taking a
bit of a loss by releasing the book, you’re willing to give it to us
now.

You’ve provided a tremendous service to the Ruby and Rails community.
Whatever money you might lose by releasing this beta book, I’m sure
you’ll gain plenty more because customers will be willing to return to
you. As I mentioned, I own 5 prag books myself.

Pat

50

On 5 May 2006, at 7:45 pm, Dave T. wrote:

generating so much apparent heartache.

I’m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst—I
thought folks would actually be excited.

And I’m sure a lot of us are. I’m almost certainly going to buy the
beta of the second edition, even though I haven’t finished reading
the original yet (I’m new to rails, and so far it’s just for fun,
until I can find an excuse to start sneaking it in at work instead of
doing everything in Java). Whatever you do, there’ll always be some
people who aren’t happy.

Keep up the good work – from where I’m looking, the Pragmatic
bookshelf is on track to become the next O’Reilly.

Kerry

51

On 5 May 2006, at 10:35 pm, Greg D. wrote:

It wouldn’t be nearly as big a deal to me if the respective editions
were years apart.

But then they’d be so far out of date as to be almost useless. I’ve
been burnt before by buying a book that hadn’t been updated for the
version of the relevant technology that was current when I bought it
(and had been for some time), and because there had been a major API
change it was a total waste of money. I’d much rather at least have
the option of buying an up-to-date book more frequently (and the beta
PDF programme is even better).

If you want to leave it a couple of years, wait for the third or
fourth edition, but by then how much of your current book will still
be useful?

Kerry

52

On 5/5/06, Dave T. [email protected] wrote:

I’m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst—I
thought folks would actually be excited.

I’m excited for the book. It’s a great thing to be smart enough to
write books. You’re the man, etc… :slight_smile:

But… being a 1st edition buyer of both the print and the PDF
versions, the 2nd edition, no matter how much new content has been
added, is still very much an ‘upgrade’ from my point of view as a
consumer. I’m guessing you did not create all the content for the 2nd
edition from scratch. At least a portion of the 1st edition was
reused, was it not? Why would I want to pay for the same thing again?
I apologize in advance if the book is all 100% new content.
Personally I would go with a new/different name if that is the case.

It wouldn’t be nearly as big a deal to me if the respective editions
were years apart. If I had know a 2nd edition were to be printed I
probably would have waited. I bought early and that’s my own fault,
not yours. But going forward it would be doubly bad if I let this
happen to my wallet again. What if there’s a 3rd edition coming for
Rails 1.2 or 1.3? Do I wait or do I spend now for a book that could
easily be outdated (again) this time next year?

A 2nd edition discount for 1st edition buyers would easily sway my
opinion to go ahead with the purchase now, but since none is being
offered to my particular purchase date, I cannot. It’s likely I will
purchase the book at some point but will wait for a used version or
other such discounted sale.

–
Greg D.
Zend Certified Engineer
MySQL Core Certification
http://destiney.com/

53

To me this is a lose lose situation from the arguments above. If no
second
edition had come out everyone would be yelling “Agile Book is so out of
date
with respect to rails 1.1.2 !!”. Now that Dave has spent time to get it
up
to date with the fast pace changes of Rails, people are complaining “I
just
bought rev 1!!”.

As said above we shoud be happy that Dave and the gang have bothered to
put
in the effort to give us all an up to date reference to work with. The
only
reason the rev came so soon is b/c rails is moving so quickly right now.
The way I look at it is if you dont want the updated version you dont
have
to buy it, but dont complain about “lack of updated information” with
all
the new rails features. Some books never release a second edition and
end
up becoming almost worthless.

Cheers for the hard work Dave, I bought the first book and it
jumpstarted my
rails projects, I plan on buying the second edition.

adam

54

On 5/5/06, Kerry B. [email protected] wrote:

If you want to leave it a couple of years, wait for the third or
fourth edition, but by then how much of your current book will still
be useful?

It is not anyone’s fault Rails is evolving so quickly, neither the
author or the readers. Still, I cannot not pay full price for
‘updated’ content.

CDs, manuals, and packaging all cost money to make, just like books
cost money to print. Meanwhile software companies sell discounted
upgrades all the time.

–
Greg D.
Zend Certified Engineer
MySQL Core Certification
http://destiney.com/

55

On May 3, 2006, at 11:45 AM, PJ Hyett wrote:

If Rails hasn’t made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
edition came out, don’t bother buying the second edition.

This really should have been the last word in this discussion. Let’s
try again.

Sebastian

56

On May 5, 2006, at 11:45 AM, Dave T. wrote:

Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We
knew this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good
member of the community and go with the beta program despite the
financial costs.

Hey, I’m excited about it. I’ll get a 2nd edition too. :slight_smile:

–
_Deirdre http://deirdre.net

57

On May 5, 2006, at 3:00 PM, Greg D. wrote:

It is not anyone’s fault Rails is evolving so quickly, neither the
author or the readers. Still, I cannot not pay full price for
‘updated’ content.

I assume the double negative is a typo. If so, WHY can’t you pay full
price for updated content? I’m totally clear that you may choose not
to, but saying that you ‘cannot’ is likely overstated.

CDs, manuals, and packaging all cost money to make, just like books
cost money to print. Meanwhile software companies sell discounted
upgrades all the time.

It is none of your business what the production costs are. The only
question you need to ask yourself is whether or not the information
is worth the price you can buy it for.

If you want it, buy it. If you don’t want it, don’t buy it.

–
– Tom M.

58

Kerry B. wrote:

And I’m sure a lot of us are. I’m almost certainly going to buy the
beta of the second edition, even though I haven’t finished reading the
original yet
Im in the same boat - Im still working my way through the first
edition… ;-(
Keep up the good work – from where I’m looking, the Pragmatic
bookshelf is on track to become the next O’Reilly.

Ah, but O’Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html

59

Dave T. wrote:

I’d like to think that the beta program adds value to the community, and
that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition considerably by
preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we’re doing the right
thing by you all.

The first edition hasn’t done badly, and the only thing that should be
hurting its sales is the rate of change in Rails itself. AWDR was there
on the shelf at Waterstones in Kingston (Surrey) today, and I imagine
they’ll keep selling it until there’s a new paper edition.

Also, many sales of Rails Recipes will be due to the first edition of
AWDR becoming out of date. That’s certainly why I bought the Rails
Recipes beta.

Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on an
upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing us
money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and with
returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew this
going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of the
community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.

I can’t find the post right now, but you have mentioned the possibility
of a discount for upgraders in the past (without committing to it). That
may have set expectations.

Maybe it’s just me, but I interpret “cost” as something you have to pay,
as opposed to “reduction in profit”. I appreciate that writing the
second edition is a cost, but you won’t be alone in this market for
long…

I know that you believe in Rails and want to contribute to its success
by providing (and continuing to provide) the definitive book on the
subject. I’d prefer not to think about what you are doing in cashflow
terms - but if I do, I see that there are tricky decisions regarding
when to announce and release a new edition, in order to hold on to
market share.

This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I’m
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating so
much apparent heartache.

It is good. It was also good that the first edition of Pickaxe was free
to download. It’s your book, and your choice.

I’m genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst—I thought
folks would actually be excited.

I am excited, and I have bought the second edition PDF (to add to my
first edition PDF, plus two paper copies - I lost one, bought another,
then found the first again), paper copies of both Pickaxe editions, PDF
of the second edition of Pickaxe, Rails Recipes PDF, Enterprise
Integration with Ruby PDF, Pragmatic Ajax PDF, paper copies of the
Pragmatic Starter Kit books, and the Pragmatic Programmer.

I can afford this, but others (e.g. students and developers in poorer
countries) may find it difficult. That’s not your problem - Rails should
have good, free, current tutorial and reference documentation.

(Remember when the JBoss team started charging for documentation?)

take care, and keep up the excellent work

Justin

60

Ajai Khattri wrote:

Kerry B. wrote:

Keep up the good work – from where I’m looking, the Pragmatic
bookshelf is on track to become the next O’Reilly.

Ah, but O’Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html

That looks exactly right… I didn’t know, and there are quite a few
O’Reilly books I’ve bought more than one edtion of (I still have the
first edition of Java in a Nutshell!).

thanks

Justin