On Aug 20, 3:13 am, Mayuresh K. [email protected] wrote:
(SNIP)
If Ruby needed a mascot it would have one by now. This attempting to
force it to have one is a silly waste of time.
(back to the code - which is what matters)
MRH
From: “Phlip” [email protected]
Emmanuel R. wrote:
The ruby girl could be as a Special character for ruby (like a tutorial
guide or inviting ruby things) and a mascot (for general porpuse, like
identiti, simbol, mark, etc…)Unless I’m mistaken, I think someone googled for “ruby manga”, and then
pretended an artist had ever heard of our little programming language…
“Ruby – now with mammalian protruberances!”
Strange; I’m pretty sure I was on ruby-talk before and during the
initial
mascot proposals, but I’m not able to locate the initial “ruby-chan”
proposal message in my archives.
Here’s an early post that mentions the ruby manga character as
having been illustrated by a Japanese rubyist (which jibes with
memory)… but goes on to propose a Ruby Crowned Kinglet
instead:
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/14121
Anyway, I remember all this from 2001… If we had to have a mascot,
I thought the ruby crowned kinglet was pretty cool…
But I’m perfectly happy with:
defined? Mascot
=> nil
Regards,
Bill
What you find silly might now be silly to another, else there wouldn’t
have been such a long discussion about a topic which was run through
before.
A logo and a mascot are a few of the essential items to forming a
community, it helps to rally the members better.
~Mayuresh
Regardless of whether or not I agree with that… you have a
self-selection
problem.
The people who have formed the ruby community did so without the aid of
a
mascot. So it’s easy to see how the community as it exists now is one
that
doesn’t see the need for some avatar to represent the language - the
language is the language, and they love it for the reasons that they
love
it, and that’s that.
Attempting to force a community to adopt anything will do nothing but
spin
tires. Especially if that community is spontaneous and decentralized,
like
the ruby community is.
If a mascot ever does get adopted, I’d be willing to bet it’d be more of
a
viral adoption than as part of a “let’s sit around and pitch ideas for a
mascot” email thread.
–Tommy M.
http://www.duwanis.com
I don’t know much about marketing (which has nothing to do with
advertising), but IMHO the ruby image itself represents very well the
language and the community. Among programmers, when we see a ruby we
immediately identify it.
I think Ruby community doesn’t need a mascot FOR ITSELF. A mascot
should represent whatever it represents outside of the organisation,
and should identify people in. A penguin can represent a lot of
things, but only Tux represents Linux, and is easily identifiable by
lots of people, even if they are not part of the Linux community.
I’m in favor of a Ruby mascot. Community will then adopt it or discard
it on the run, nothing is broken by trying. The worst that can happen
is that nobody uses it and it <>.
Oh, and no snails. I don’t quite like the idea of the girl either, but
that’s just me. Actually I think _why’s foxes are a good candidate for
a mascot (they have the bonus of being already recognized by at least
many people among the community)
Hi Bill,
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 12:56 JST, Bill K. wrote:
: Strange; I’m pretty sure I was on ruby-talk before and during the
initial
: mascot proposals, but I’m not able to locate the initial “ruby-chan”
: proposal message in my archives.
:
: Here’s an early post that mentions the ruby manga character as
: having been illustrated by a Japanese rubyist (which jibes with
: memory)… but goes on to propose a Ruby Crowned Kinglet
: instead:
:
: http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/14121
:
:
: Anyway, I remember all this from 2001… If we had to have a mascot,
: I thought the ruby crowned kinglet was pretty cool…
:
: But I’m perfectly happy with:
:
: >> defined? Mascot
: => nil
:
:
:
- I’m actually not for having official Ruby mascot in any sense.
- And I’m not an apt person to comment on this issue, since I had lost
what mascot proposals are given in the URL mentioned above. - Ancient history, anyway.
Just to point out the illustration in your memory is perhaps around
here:
http://www.clio.ne.jp/home/web-i31s/Flotuard/Ruby/ruby-chan-s.html
(Ruby-chan-s’ portal, since 2001)
Hope in a weekend to cast a glance with a smile.
MRH wrote:
If Ruby needed a mascot it would have one by now. This attempting to
force it to have one is a silly waste of time.
Okay, point the camera at the Ruby gem, and slowly push in, with
atmospheric
music. Start a high-hat tickle, going Dit-Daah-Dit, Dit-Daah-Dit. Bring
up some
eerie violins.
Just as the alto saxophone starts, deep within the glowing depths of the
Ruby
gem, we see a springing feline silhouette, with a long cigarette holder.
It’s:
----> The Pink Panther! <----Tommy Morgan wrote:
Regardless of whether or not I agree with that… you have a self-selection
problem.
The people who have formed the ruby community did so without the aid of a
mascot.
Well, there is no one Ruby community; there are many. And some
(possibly large) number of Rubyists have abandoned ruby-talk, so the
thread here is hardly indicative of what Rubyists as a whole think of a
mascot. (BTW, this thread is a good example of why people are leaving
this mailing list. Sad to say.) But I am unaware of any Ruby
community that has a mascot, and things seems to be thriving.
So it’s easy to see how the community as it exists now is one that
doesn’t see the need for some avatar to represent the language - the
language is the language, and they love it for the reasons that they love
it, and that’s that.
Attempting to force a community to adopt anything will do nothing but spin
tires. Especially if that community is spontaneous and decentralized, like
the ruby community is.
I imagine that if some Ruby community really wants their own mascot they
will just go adopt one. Some others will giggle.
If a mascot ever does get adopted, I’d be willing to bet it’d be more of a
viral adoption than as part of a “let’s sit around and pitch ideas for a
mascot” email thread.
Exactly. Doing beats asking. But be careful what you wish for.
–
James B.
www.happycamperstudios.com - Wicked Cool Coding
www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 12:37 PM, James B. [email protected]
wrote:
large) number of Rubyists have abandoned ruby-talk, so the thread here is
hardly indicative of what Rubyists as a whole think of a mascot. (BTW,
this thread is a good example of why people are leaving this mailing list.
Sad to say.) But I am unaware of any Ruby community that has a mascot,
and things seems to be thriving.
True, that’s what I meant. Since no community (either the community at
large, or a sub-community) seems to have a mascot, it’s a safe
assumption
that a mascot isn’t a huge draw for the people who are already using the
language.
I imagine that if some Ruby community really wants their own mascot they
will just go adopt one. Some others will giggle.
True, but the point of this thread seems to be “let’s make an official
mascot.” I don’t think that’s something that can really be done
declaratively (unless Matz feels like it, but I get the impression that
he
has other things he’d rather be doing at the moment ).
If a mascot ever does get adopted, I’d be willing to bet it’d be more of a
viral adoption than as part of a “let’s sit around and pitch ideas for a
mascot” email thread.Exactly. Doing beats asking. But be careful what you wish for.
Oh, I’m not wishing, trust me
On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 7:16 AM, MRH [email protected] wrote:
On Aug 20, 3:13 am, Mayuresh K. [email protected] wrote:
(SNIP)If Ruby needed a mascot it would have one by now. This attempting to
force it to have one is a silly waste of time.(back to the code - which is what matters)
You obviously haven’t studied marketing/branding. To hope that the
ability of a program/OS/library stands on its own is only partly true.
Exposure is best for everyone in the long run, and the picture of a
“ruby” cut gem doesn’t cut it. It shines but is ultimately inanimate.
If you only want to attract intellectuals, then by all means, omit any
kind of mascot/branding. I’m fine with that.
I can foresee a problem with a cute female mascot, simply from other
programming camps (hey, look!
“picture_of_ruby-chan_cheerleader_upskirt.png”) proliferated on python
lists to point out naivety and an exposure type nature. Now, you
could apply this ploy with pretty much anything, but the whole cutesy
girl thing makes that chance easy (pun intended?)
I don’t want to go into other things of what a python could do with
ruby-chan exemplified in manga comics to make the Ruby language seem
inferior.
I did like the idea of the raccoon though. But, then you could
scandalously destroy that one, too, with a simple cartoon of a raccoon
reaching for a shiny ruby in a hand trap. Apparently, the real life
raccoon has a hard time letting go of something. Fist gets big, won’t
let go, and barbs in the trap pointing into the trap hole depths
capture the critter, because among it’s kind, stubbornness abounds.
Analogy: programming freedom sought, but lost in the end via a simple
trap. You can see that argument coming from a mile away.
I don’t like the sound of that now that I think about it.
Meerkats, anyone? j/k
Todd
On Friday 22 August 2008 06:41:24 David A. Black wrote:
Starbucks isn’t my role model as a Rubyist (or in any other respect).
Starbucks is massively popular, despite being as expensive as they are.
They also have a habit of building insane amounts of brand loyalty – an
oft-cited example (that I still can’t verify) is the guy who went on a
coffee
run for his office, and dropped the tray (spilling all the coffee) on
his way
back.
So, the girl at the counter noticed him ordering the exact same thing,
again,
and asked why – found out he’d dropped the tray – and gave him the
order
free.
I’d say that’s something to respect – either in the actual
brand-loyalty-building genius, or the sheer viral marketing genius if
the
story isn’t real.
On Friday 22 August 2008 17:36:21 Gregory B. wrote:
How many of you male
programmers would like a large, muscular, naked man as our Ruby logo?I think that would be awesome, but I’m not sure you’ll all agree…
I’d have to see it. Some large, muscular, naked men are prettier than
others…
Did I say that out loud?
On 23/08/2008, Emmanuel R. [email protected] wrote:
ã“れもã‹ã‚ã„ã„
Sorry, I couldn’t resist
I would not comment on the points people here are making about what a
mascot should or should not be because that would be a lot of typing
and would only add heat to the discussion I guess.
Anyway it’s about somebody drawing something good enough that many
people would use it, various “correctness” concerns aside.
Thanks
Michal
On Friday 22 August 2008 17:14:13 Rick DeNatale wrote:
On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Gregory B.
[email protected]wrote:patronizing. We should think about what female programmers will think
of Ruby upon encountering that. I’m sure the feelings will be varied,
but I suspect that’d seem a bit offensive to at least some people.Well FWIW, I just showed Ruby to a female coworker, and she thought that:
- She was cute and
- The nude version showed that she was both flexible, and quite
appropriate for Ruby the language, agile!
I think it’s interesting what the reaction is…
The most valid response, so far, has been “Ruby doesn’t need a mascot!”
And to
those people, I would say, “Why would you care if it does?” It’s been a
long
time since I’ve thought about penguins, and I use Linux every day.
What seems very strange is that more people seem to be saying “Oh no,
what if
someone was offended by it?” than “I, personally, am offended.”
Are we that bad that all it takes is the possibility of puritanical
outrage
to make us back down?
On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 8:42 PM, David M. [email protected]
wrote:
On Friday 22 August 2008 06:41:24 David A. Black wrote:
So, the girl at the counter noticed him ordering the exact same thing, again,
and asked why – found out he’d dropped the tray – and gave him the order
free.I’d say that’s something to respect – either in the actual
brand-loyalty-building genius, or the sheer viral marketing genius if the
story isn’t real.
Very sweet story, but:
Hi –
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008, David M. wrote:
isn´t it?).
appropriate for Ruby the language, agile!I think it’s interesting what the reaction is…
The most valid response, so far, has been “Ruby doesn’t need a mascot!” And to
those people, I would say, “Why would you care if it does?” It’s been a long
time since I’ve thought about penguins, and I use Linux every day.What seems very strange is that more people seem to be saying “Oh no, what if
someone was offended by it?” than “I, personally, am offended.”
OK, I’ll make it easier for you. I, personally, am offended by the
suggestion that a cute little (naked or otherwise) girl named Ruby be
the Ruby “mascot.” It disturbs me that the idea has resurfaced so many
years after – I thought – having been put to amply-deserved rest.
Are we that bad that all it takes is the possibility of puritanical outrage
to make us back down?
I don’t have to “back down” from putting the image on my Ruby-related
sites because it would never occur to me to do it in the first place.
Please – everyone, just put whatever images you want on your
websites, and have done with it. If Matz wants there to be a Ruby
mascot I’m sure he’ll let us know. Meanwhile please channel some of
this energy into real issues, like why we as a community have not
blazed the new trail of inclusiveness across sexual boundaries that it
once seemed we might. And maybe we will yet. That, unlike debate as to
whether Ruby should be represented by a girl or a chunk of bacon, is
the kind of thing that might really lead somewhere.
David
On 8/23/08, David A. Black [email protected] wrote:
the kind of thing that might really lead somewhere.
Well said. We should just link to this message when this topic arises
yet again, next year.
–Wilson.
Countdown to people arguing over whether this is a bikeshed or not
starts… NOW! 10… 9… 8…
On Saturday 23 August 2008 21:23:13 David A. Black wrote:
OK, I’ll make it easier for you. I, personally, am offended by the
suggestion that a cute little (naked or otherwise) girl named Ruby be
the Ruby “mascot.”
You’re one person… but I was generalizing.
However…
Meanwhile please channel some of
this energy into real issues, like why we as a community have not
blazed the new trail of inclusiveness across sexual boundaries that it
once seemed we might.
Ok, I’m curious – how many females have seen this image? How many have
actually been offended by it? (I’m assuming “David” is male.)
I think we do more harm to that “inclusiveness” by focusing on this
issue at
all. But I’m not really qualified to debate that. (Are you?)
But if you’d rather talk about inclusiveness… Is Ruby particularly
under-represented, among programming languages? We’re talking about a
very
small niche of an already male-dominated field.
I can see why you’re tired of this issue. I’ll stop.
On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM, MRH [email protected] wrote:
A logo and a mascot are a few of the essential items to forming a
Last time I checked, Ruby was a programming language, and the members
of its community were bound by their use of the language, not by
whether or not a cartoon mascot existed.
Going by your logic, even the logo is irrelevant, but it was an effort
supported by Matz himself.
I can think of no programmer worth his salt who would need a cartoon
mascot to “rally” with others in a “better” fashion.
Then why does every “major” programming effort have a mascot/logo?
FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, Darwin, Minix3, Python, Apache, …
Its good to be a programmer, but its important to be a programmer having
taste.
~Mayuresh