Forum: Ruby Trying to change my OS from Windows to Linux/Mac

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Ca0b18ec9e11dc777b2b8084fe5d5f90?d=identicon&s=25 sam.s.kong (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 18:13
(Received via mailing list)
Hello, Ruby people!

This is not about Ruby itself but about OS.
The reason that I ask this question in this group is that I've been
motivated to use other OS's than Windows by this group while I learned
Ruby.
Thus the people in this group can answer my question very well.
Also, I feel very comfortable with people in this group, even if I
don't know them personally.
(I feel like they are my friends.)
This question is not meant to bring flame wars!

I use Windows at my work and home.
Of course, I tried several linux OS's (RedHat, SUSE, Debian, Gentoo,
Ubuntu) and this year I even purchased Mini Mac.
However, I haven't succeeded to make myself used to these OS's.

I have some questions to linux users and Mac users.

1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
text-mode or graphic-mode?

2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
problem.

3. For Mac users, do you feel OK with the simple mouse? Probably I'm
too accustomed to Windows mouse. Whenever I use Mac, I miss the
right-button and scroll-wheel.

If anybody has experience of moving from Windows to Linux or Mac,
please share the success story.

Thanks.

Sam
6d9bf78ca49a017e9e3e6b0357b6c59e?d=identicon&s=25 peter (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 18:21
(Received via mailing list)
Sam Kong wrote:

>3. For Mac users, do you feel OK with the simple mouse? Probably I'm
>too accustomed to Windows mouse. Whenever I use Mac, I miss the
>right-button and scroll-wheel.
>
The Mac mouse is a plain USB mouse, you can just plug in your windows
mouse and away you go. Same for the scroll wheel.
Fe62f8a7a1f92869e5abecde74343777?d=identicon&s=25 george.lunsford (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 18:21
(Received via mailing list)
Just a note, Macs (with OS X) do support a two-button mouse + scroll
wheel.
I have a Mighty Mouse, and it's two-button with a scroll ball and
everything. Though I'd recommend just getting a normal mouse, the MM
isn't
that great.
19f65b7dca6831edf989224b5ebd3fe0?d=identicon&s=25 tsumeruby (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 18:45
(Received via mailing list)
On Tuesday 22 November 2005 02:12 am, Sam Kong wrote:
> This question is not meant to bring flame wars!
>
> I use Windows at my work and home.
> Of course, I tried several linux OS's (RedHat, SUSE, Debian, Gentoo,
> Ubuntu) and this year I even purchased Mini Mac.
> However, I haven't succeeded to make myself used to these OS's.
>

Linux is Linux, they are basically all the same, the only real
difference is
usually the package manager and a few different configuration files
which
differ from Redhat-based to Debian-based. Its very easy to use one or
the
other, I just jump on a box and start adjusting settings I need. Linux
is
just a kernel, distro differences are very small, at least to me.

> I have some questions to linux users and Mac users.
>
> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
> text-mode or graphic-mode?
>

Full install of KDE of course, and drop down to openbox when I'm not
doing 60
million tasks at once.

> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.
>

You must research what the laptop specifications are before trying Linux
on a
laptop. I use Toshiba based laptops with linux on them all the time.
Fully
supported. Toshiba has a synaptic touchpad problem, but is easily fixed.
The
kernel in ubuntu breezy has patches already.

I only used NVIDIA based laptops so I may use twinview. GeforceFX 5200
Go
64MB, this card works very well. Even the softmodem works on this
laptop.

M35-S456 (re-certified, not refurb, was best deal at time, 1.7 GHz
loaded -
except the DVD-RAM drive.. worthless)

19"(1600x1200) + 15.4"(1280x800)

I've come to the conclusion buying a desktop is worthless unless you're
a
gamer, since the computer will be outdated in 6 months.. :)

"Just buy a new laptop every 6 months :)"

> If anybody has experience of moving from Windows to Linux or Mac,
> please share the success story.
>

Ruby is best used on a system which is LSB based, mainly because the
1.8.2 and
older versions don't have good support with mkmf.rb. I seen there are
improvement in new versions with the find lib/and includes with the new
version, but it is irritating when you have libraries in a odd
directory.

I haven't installed Winows on any of my home/work computers in 5 years.
I've
been a *nix guy. I've been using ubuntu/with KDE mainly because its the
most
friendly and has the best package support. Even Java, mp3, etc packages
are
on a remote repository which is not affiliated with Ubuntu, but is nice
to
know someone has unofficial packages :) I'd say something about FreeBSD
or
NetBSD, but most people aren't competent enough to sit there and use a
unix
based system. The OSes will definitely teach you how to use a *nix based
system and even as problems arise will teach you more about problems of
compilers and linkers.

Best of luck with your adventure to find a new distro.

// Tsume
Bc6d88907ce09158581fbb9b469a35a3?d=identicon&s=25 james_b (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 18:49
(Received via mailing list)
Sam Kong wrote:
> This question is not meant to bring flame wars!
>
> I use Windows at my work and home.
> Of course, I tried several linux OS's (RedHat, SUSE, Debian, Gentoo,
> Ubuntu) and this year I even purchased Mini Mac.
> However, I haven't succeeded to make myself used to these OS's.
>
> I have some questions to linux users and Mac users.
>
> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
> text-mode or graphic-mode?

Both.  Depending on the CPU of the machine, I tend to use  a
lighter-weight X Windows shell (Window Maker or Sawfish, say, rather
than than full-blown KDE or Gnome) while calling apps mainly from the
commandline.  It makes it easier to have multiple stuff running, use
gvim, run Firefox, and so on, while preserving CPU cycle for databases
and Web servers.

>
> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.

I've managed to get Fedora core 3 (0r 4?  I forget) on a somewhat older
Toshiba Portege, and the trick for me was to read up on what was
supported.  So I had to use an older and slower linksys wifi card, but
other  than that Fedora (and I'm sure others) tend to be pretty good at
getting installed correctly for the hardware.  (Though generally I do
not care if sound works; I have my preferred sound tools on Windows.)

James

--

http://www.ruby-doc.org       - Ruby Help & Documentation
http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - Ruby Code & Style: Writers wanted
http://www.rubystuff.com      - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com     - Playing with Better Toys
http://www.30secondrule.com   - Building Better Tools
1153dde9b9daadf6cb4f96e3d84d89ef?d=identicon&s=25 steven.jenkins (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 18:57
(Received via mailing list)
Sam Kong wrote:
> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
> text-mode or graphic-mode?

I use X Windows on Linux. But I'm old-school; I just open a bunch of
xterms and work in the shell. I've done some UI development in Ruby
using Glade, but I use text tools for coding.

> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.

I have Gentoo Linux working perfectly on a Dell Latitude D400: graphics,
wireless, USB, everything. It required a good bit of work to get
everything set up. This machine has Windows XP installed on it, but I
have a complete Gentoo environment on half of a 40 GB notebook hard
drive in an external USB 2.0 enclosure [1]. Plug it in, boot it up, and
I'm good to go.

[1] http://www.vantecusa.com/moreimage/images/popout3_...

Steve
D4d28bd014f9e7324bad99dcc3b0d390?d=identicon&s=25 rdm (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 19:09
(Received via mailing list)
At 2:12 AM +0900 11/22/05, Sam Kong wrote:
>1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux,
>do you use text-mode or graphic-mode?

I assume that you're talking about command-line mode vs. GUI mode.
I use Mac OS X, but the principle should be pretty much the same.
The command line (and associated tools) are complementary to the
GUI and its tools.  I tend to keep a few Terminal windows around at
all times, but they may be hidden, depending on the task at hand.

>3. For Mac users, do you feel OK with the simple mouse? Probably I'm
>too accustomed to Windows mouse. Whenever I use Mac, I miss the
>right-button and scroll-wheel.

The one-button mouse is very restrictive.  I use a Kensington
Optical Elite mouse, which has four buttons and a clickable scroll
wheel.  The driver supports chording, application-specific settings,
etc.  I love it and have bought enough for all the local machines.

>If anybody has experience of moving from Windows to Linux or Mac,
>please share the success story.

The last M$ OS I spent any time with was MS-DOS 3.2, which I used
by means of the Mortice Kern tool kit.  I consider this to be a
success story (:-).

-r
4913bcb685792f601ae9813b4713abb9?d=identicon&s=25 detlef.reichl (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 19:17
(Received via mailing list)
On Di, 2005-11-22 at 02:12 +0900, Sam Kong wrote:
> This question is not meant to bring flame wars!
>
> I use Windows at my work and home.
> Of course, I tried several linux OS's (RedHat, SUSE, Debian, Gentoo,
> Ubuntu) and this year I even purchased Mini Mac.

Hi,

i use Ubuntu on my Mac Mini and it works really nice.


> However, I haven't succeeded to make myself used to these OS's.
>
> I have some questions to linux users and Mac users.
>
> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
> text-mode or graphic-mode?
>
I use the standard GNOME desktop, that comes with Ubuntu and it is fast
enough (1,23 GHz, 1 GByte RAM).

> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.
>
The problem with laptops are often, that they use highly integrated chip
sets, where the manufactor don't release the specs. With laptops the
best way is to look what hardware ist supported (and what you really
need from the laptops hardware) und _then_ buy the laptop.

> 3. For Mac users, do you feel OK with the simple mouse? Probably I'm
> too accustomed to Windows mouse. Whenever I use Mac, I miss the
> right-button and scroll-wheel.

I use a logitec mouse on my mini, cause i see only one button as an
unneded limitation.

Cheers
detlef
Eba32a4bc6f1a4f60b434b7cae0715de?d=identicon&s=25 rascal1182 (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 19:58
(Received via mailing list)
On 11/21/05, Sam Kong <sam.s.kong@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
> text-mode or graphic-mode?

I usually use rxvt terminals in a lightweight window manager (Ion).  I
could probably abandon my window manager for emacs in "text-mode," but
I'm too lazy.

> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.

Many people keep journals of what they had to do to get Linux running
on a particular laptop.  I suggest you look into this for your laptop.
 If you're planning on purchasing a laptop for linux use, make sure
you do the research first.

You can google for the laptop model and linux, or start off at one of
these sites:
http://www.linux-laptop.net/
http://www.tuxmobil.org/

With most laptops, you can at least get the vesa driver working, so
unless you need hardware acceleration, you should be fine on that
front.

I have had good success with Ubuntu on all hardware - it's
autodetection works quite well.  However, reading on this thread,
people have had problems with the Ruby 1.8.3 packages, so you might
end up building your own ruby from source (I still use the old 1.8.2
packages, which work great).  The default gnome setup (although I
don't use it) is also quite slick.

> If anybody has experience of moving from Windows to Linux or Mac,
> please share the success story.

My Windows desktop stopped working, so I stopped using it, in favor of
my Linux desktop.  Is that success?
B3a768bfd90e22e4fb091626019d351b?d=identicon&s=25 balcersk (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 20:58
(Received via mailing list)
Sam Kong wrote:
> This question is not meant to bring flame wars!
>
> I use Windows at my work and home.
> Of course, I tried several linux OS's (RedHat, SUSE, Debian, Gentoo,
> Ubuntu) and this year I even purchased Mini Mac.
> However, I haven't succeeded to make myself used to these OS's.
>
> I have some questions to linux users and Mac users.
>
> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
> text-mode or graphic-mode?
Most developers I gues uses some sort of GUI (GNOME/KDE/WINDOW
MAKER/....). When we discuss about Ruby developing some people feel
better using text tools like Emacs/Vi some are using kind of IDE: KDE
Developer/Arachno/Eclipse RDT etc.
I prefer KDE with EMACS/Eclipse but it is just me:)
>
> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.
Well comming from Windows it is not as simple as many Linux fans would
like it to be. Sometimes, I guess, they forgot about problems thay have
had. Some are smart enough to underestimate problems normal people will
fight against. Linux is not Windows at all. Installing linux is not as
simple as windows becouse of those little tricks that everybody "should
know".
Let me consider situation, installing video driver on Fedora:
1) Should I use NVidia script or Livna packages or standard ones? 3h of
reading
2) When I install  new kernel linux stops - why ? becouse boot was in
grap. mode and old drivers is not working anymore. 3h of reading how to
install new driver, how to even switch from grap. boot to standard. etc.
3) Driver is not working properly - After 1h of reading google I have
found that this version of NVidia driver is well.... a crap
4) and so on and so on. This same with music drivers, mounting drives,
using smb, installing printer, etc.
Hej people this is not the start point of discussion. What I am trying
to say is: Linux is great but it hard (a little) to begin with.
>
> 3. For Mac users, do you feel OK with the simple mouse? Probably I'm
> too accustomed to Windows mouse. Whenever I use Mac, I miss the
> right-button and scroll-wheel.
>
> If anybody has experience of moving from Windows to Linux or Mac,
> please share the success story.

Well. This is whole new world waiting for you. Depends on what person
you are.
If you are develeper I assume you should be curious about linux. It so
much better platform for writing code. I can not imagine working without
linux bash or Emacs:)

> Thanks.
>
> Sam
>
Cheers, Jacek
Bc6d88907ce09158581fbb9b469a35a3?d=identicon&s=25 james_b (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 21:10
(Received via mailing list)
Rob Rypka wrote:
> On 11/21/05, Sam Kong <sam.s.kong@gmail.com> wrote:
...

> Many people keep journals of what they had to do to get Linux running
> on a particular laptop.  I suggest you look into this for your laptop.
>  If you're planning on purchasing a laptop for linux use, make sure
> you do the research first.

Is it feasible (e.g., no jail time) to go to CompUSA or Fry's with a
Knoppix disk and just try out some machines?


>
> You can google for the laptop model and linux, or start off at one of
> these sites:
> http://www.linux-laptop.net/
> http://www.tuxmobil.org/

You might also consider using VMWare on a Windows box.  Less than
optimim, but handy.



James
31e038e4e9330f6c75ccfd1fca8010ee?d=identicon&s=25 gregory.t.brown (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 21:18
(Received via mailing list)
On 11/21/05, Sam Kong <sam.s.kong@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.

I've had flawless and simple laptop installs with Ubuntu.  It's a good
idea to try the live cd first to make sure the system works.

I've been able to get some not very Linux friendly laptops working
with Gentoo, but this is some degree more work.

Most *nix users do make heavy use of the command line, but usually via
some window manager.  The one I've come to enjoy is XFCE4, but there
are a ton of different ones out there.  So when you say text mode, I'm
not sure if you mean heavy reliance on command line apps or no WM at
all.   In the case of no WM at all, I don't imagine you'll have
trouble getting any distro to this level.

Even still, most distros have improved greatly as far as laptop support
goes.
I've got ubuntu working on my Mac via the live CD and installed it on
a few Dell and Gateway laptops.  So... that I know works... others
probably will, too :)
Eba32a4bc6f1a4f60b434b7cae0715de?d=identicon&s=25 rascal1182 (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 22:59
(Received via mailing list)
On 11/21/05, James Britt <james_b@neurogami.com> wrote:
> Rob Rypka wrote:
> > Many people keep journals of what they had to do to get Linux running
> > on a particular laptop.  I suggest you look into this for your laptop.
> >  If you're planning on purchasing a laptop for linux use, make sure
> > you do the research first.
>
> Is it feasible (e.g., no jail time) to go to CompUSA or Fry's with a
> Knoppix disk and just try out some machines?

Generally this is frowned upon, but I don't see a situation where you
would get jail time from it.  It never hurts to ask, but you might get
away with more if you try it first and play dumb if you get caught :-)

Checking out these linux laptop compatibility pages are still a good
first step.  There are a lot of people who are less conservitave with
their capital than I, and buy laptops before they're sure Linux will
run on them.  You'll at least know what to expect.

And, heck, if the fix to your laptop's problem is simple enough, you
could bring a USB key with necessary files along with your Live CD to
the store.
Dd54c22454b4e3c21cadf3bdb5192e28?d=identicon&s=25 kero (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 23:03
(Received via mailing list)
> Most *nix users do make heavy use of the command line, but usually via
> some window manager.  The one I've come to enjoy is XFCE4, but there
> are a ton of different ones out there.  So when you say text mode, I'm
> not sure if you mean heavy reliance on command line apps or no WM at
> all.   In the case of no WM at all, I don't imagine you'll have
> trouble getting any distro to this level.

I have a WM in textmode.

From the manual page: "Screen is a full-screen window manager that
multiplexes a physical terminal between several processes (typically
interactive shells)."

But even under X + IceWM, I'm using lots and lots of xterms.
7d95a5024d9b2b7a804e29d2407452c4?d=identicon&s=25 no.spam (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 23:15
(Received via mailing list)
"Sam Kong" <sam.s.kong@gmail.com> wrote in comp.lang.ruby

> This question is not meant to bring flame wars!
>
> I use Windows at my work and home.
> Of course, I tried several linux OS's (RedHat, SUSE, Debian, Gentoo,
> Ubuntu) and this year I even purchased Mini Mac.
> However, I haven't succeeded to make myself used to these OS's.
>
> I have some questions to linux users and Mac users.
>
> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
> text-mode or graphic-mode?

I have no idea about this because i am also a newbie in Ruby. I am
working on windows at this moment.
>
> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.
>
I installed the linux in my laptop. I use KDE, everything works very
well, wireless or ethernet, usb, even battery management. I think you
may
try mandriva first because it is very easy to install and use,
especially
in GUI applications. After you get used to linux, you can try your
favorite distribution.
A36e2ad7a1dd10b9709f797344ea5068?d=identicon&s=25 christophe.grandsire (Guest)
on 2005-11-21 23:55
(Received via mailing list)
Selon Sam Kong :
> This question is not meant to bring flame wars!
>

So far it has been quite a civilised discussion :) .

> I use Windows at my work and home.
> Of course, I tried several linux OS's (RedHat, SUSE, Debian, Gentoo,
> Ubuntu) and this year I even purchased Mini Mac.
> However, I haven't succeeded to make myself used to these OS's.
>

Force of habit is difficult to beat. I know the problem. After using an
Amiga 1200 for years I've never been able to acclimate to the Windows
desktop ;) .

> I have some questions to linux users and Mac users.
>
> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
> text-mode or graphic-mode?
>

I personally have a Debian desktop with GNOME (graphic mode thus), but
I'm thinking of trying something more lightweight. I'm lazy though and
the performance I get is enough for my use. I use quite a few x-terms
but they hardly ever stay up when I don't use them. I have no problem
with the command line (my first computer had a BASIC prompt). I just use
what I feel most comfortable with for the task at hand.

> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.
>

I don't have a laptop, but I can just repeat everyone's advice. You
should check if a laptop is compatible with Linux before buying it.
Unlike with Windows, hardware vendors still don't usually make drivers
for Linux, and with laptops keep their specifications often secret. The
only possibility is then for developers to reverse-engineer and build
their own drivers. Of course, this way is difficult and error-prone.
Given the uphill battle, the fact that you *can* get Linux to work on
some laptops is already quite a feat :) . The sites you've been pointed
out to are great, and you can find plenty more by googling "linux
compatibility" ;) .

> 3. For Mac users, do you feel OK with the simple mouse? Probably I'm
> too accustomed to Windows mouse. Whenever I use Mac, I miss the
> right-button and scroll-wheel.
>

I don't have a Mac, but I'll talk about this here as it fits the
subject. I ditched my mouse quite a while ago and took a trackball
instead, and so far I'm thrilled. I only move my thumb and two fingers,
so the rest of my arm can rest comfortably and I don't ever get RSI
symptoms (I used to have some with my mouse). I also think with a laptop
a trackball could be a good acolyte, as you don't need a big surface
next to your laptop to move the mouse anymore. No forced to use the
impractical tactile screen anymore when you are on the train ;) .

> If anybody has experience of moving from Windows to Linux or Mac,
> please share the success story.
>

I've switched last August (although I've wanted to do it for years, just
too lazy to actually do it ;) ) so my success story is still fresh :) .
I've installed Debian GNU/Linux in dual-boot with the original Windows
ME of this computer. Installing was a bit of a problem, but only because
  I've had issues with the Nero burning my CDs wrong, and with the fact
that the ADSL network in the Netherlands uses PPTP, a rarely used
protocol, and I have an old ADSL modem which isn't a router, so I don't
have DHCP (I'm moving to cable next week so that problem will be solved
;) ), thus I couldn't use the netinstall.

But I eventually got the two install CDs to work, and it was a breeze.
All the hardware of my Dell Dimension 4300 was recognised on the spot, I
immediately got a graphical login manager (GDM), and logged into the
GNOME desktop. There I added the finishing touches, like installing the
pptp client I had downloaded earlier from Windows and configurating it
(took a bit of googling to find the right way, because once again the
Dutch ADSL network is anything but standard, but I eventually got it
running).

Once Internet was on, I surprisingly never came back to Windows anymore.
I still have to log on the Windows partition when something goes wrong,
but for actual work and pleasure I exclusively use Debian. The change
was overnight and I was myself astonished by it. Everything just makes
so much sense to me! I've had since a few problems, but they are all to
blame on myself tinkering things when I don't know enough about what I'm
doing ;) . However, I've always been able to repair my mistakes without
a reinstall (and I have a Knoppix liveCD handy for if I ever break my
GRUB conf file again ;) ).

I've since done quite a few things, like compiling the NVIDIA support (a
surprisingly painless experience on Debian, once you have installed
module-assistant from Synaptic), adding the repositories to get mplayer
and great multimedia support (better than what I had on Windows, and I
fought for four years there to never get good support), switched to Xorg
and installed a bunch of applications from Synaptic. I also update my
Unstable box nearly every day, without a problem. I just pay attention
to what I'm doing, but that's hardly more than 5 minutes a day.

So all in all I'm more than satisfied with the result. I get a more
responsive box, great software, and can use a distribution whose ethics
fit mine best. What more could I want? ;)
--
Christophe Grandsire.

http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr

You need a straight mind to invent a twisted conlang.
31e038e4e9330f6c75ccfd1fca8010ee?d=identicon&s=25 gregory.t.brown (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 00:20
(Received via mailing list)
On 11/21/05, Kero <kero@chello.single-dot.nl> wrote:

> I have a WM in textmode.
>
> From the manual page: "Screen is a full-screen window manager that
> multiplexes a physical terminal between several processes (typically
> interactive shells)."

Actually, i use that too :)

> But even under X + IceWM, I'm using lots and lots of xterms.

I count about 12 open presently, and that's a light load for me :)
Dfc2a545a0c4f542d69f89a782714e8e?d=identicon&s=25 jqshenker (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 01:08
(Received via mailing list)
I highly recommend Ubuntu for a laptop - almost all the time Stuff
Just Works. Wifi, audio, you name it. It's running great on my
thinkpad, and it has a good Ruby environment to boot (if you remember
to install an updated Ruby from a .deb or from source, the packaged
one it broken).

Right now, I use Enlightenment 17 (from cvs), which both looks cool
and it quite resource-friendly. I lay out my environemt with 4 virtual
desktops, one for play, one for administiation (where I put all those
SSH sessions), one for development, and one extra ("just in case").
Each has an Eterm running screen, which often amounts to more than 12
bash processes running total. and I usually have two firefox window
up, each with between 10 and 20 tabs.

I like to use a graphical environment becase I need to see the web
graphically (e.g. for web design, elinks just won't cut it ;-) and I
get pretty screen antialiasing and fonts. I really like seeing
multiple window at a time, and screen by itself (in text-mode) can't
provide that. That said, I very much prefer using text-based programs
for pretty much anything besides the web:
- irssi for IRC is awesome. All GUI clients give me bad-design hives.
It can be hacked to do various IM services as well... but who uses IM
anymore?! :)
- Mutt. "All mail clients suck, this one just sucks less." --
Somebody(sorry, forgot the name). I tend to think I sucks *quite a
bit* less ;-) Everything's customizable, you can use external programs
for various tasks (Vim, GPG, etc.) It's hooks feature simply provides
unparalleled flexibility.
- Vim. I've been using it for a while, and I really like it. Once you
get the basics, it's pretty easy. Fast, efficient, and powerful. I
haven't seriously learned Emacs, but if I get the time I'd really like
to, if only for comparison. I happen to prefer Vim's modes over Emacs'
arcane key sequences, though my mind is open to the Emacs way of
life...
- Eterm. I've been using it only just recently. The jury's still out
on this one, it has issues with ncurses and mutt, but I think it's
actually a font/encoding issue. Also, there are some pretty themes
available for it. Anyway, mrxvt is another terminal to check out, it's
very lightweight but has tabs too! (but with screen, that doesn't
matter as much to me) Konsole, as bloated as it is, I have to say does
an awesome job (I don't use KDE, alas). SHIFT-<arrow> to switch
between terminals is just *so* useful. I need to see if screen can do
that...

Well. Hope you gleaned some useful information from that.

Using Linux, and text-mode interfaces, and all the other things that
come with *nix is intimidating. But it's worth it. Really!

Jacob
Dfc2a545a0c4f542d69f89a782714e8e?d=identicon&s=25 jqshenker (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 01:08
(Received via mailing list)
Forgot to add:
If you want *nix tools on a Windows box, cygwin is quite good. I used
it in my "transitioning" phase, so I could learn *nix while still
retaining the familiar yet ugly Windows desktop :)
31e038e4e9330f6c75ccfd1fca8010ee?d=identicon&s=25 gregory.t.brown (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 01:12
(Received via mailing list)
On 11/21/05, Jacob Quinn Shenker <jqshenker@gmail.com> wrote:
> Forgot to add:
> If you want *nix tools on a Windows box, cygwin is quite good. I used
> it in my "transitioning" phase, so I could learn *nix while still
> retaining the familiar yet ugly Windows desktop :)

Before this thread alerts Austin, I should mention that not everyone
really believes in cygwin as being a good transitional phase system,
as it has a lot of problems with it.

I myself install MSys and MinGW on windows boxes just to get me *nix
style commands, but if you are seriously planning on transitioning to
Linux and want to play around with it first, try one of the live
distros such as Knoppix or the Ubuntu live CD, or use a shell account.

You won't get the 'real' feel for things unless you do this.
Fee23d1fc58edee59e05d7a52dcf172e?d=identicon&s=25 blargity (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 01:16
(Received via mailing list)
On Monday 21 November 2005 11:12, Sam Kong wrote:
> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
> text-mode or graphic-mode?

X for me is a tool to open more consoles and be able to switch quickly.
It
also is nice to have pretty apps every once in a while.

> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.

Depends on the distro.  Depends on the problem.  Linux is not perfect,
but
neither is any other OS I've ever used.  Ubuntu specifically has a goal
for
the next release that they're going to take 5 or so laptops and make
them
work PERFECTLY with Ubuntu out of the box.  As they continue to add
other
laptops things will magically start working for the rest of us.

> 3. For Mac users, do you feel OK with the simple mouse? Probably I'm
> too accustomed to Windows mouse. Whenever I use Mac, I miss the
> right-button and scroll-wheel.

Control click works.  What else works very well is to simply use a USB
mouse
with right mouse button and scroll wheel.  In fact, being that the Mini
didn't come with a mouse, you could have bought one with a right mouse
button
and scroll wheel and not known the difference.

> If anybody has experience of moving from Windows to Linux or Mac,
> please share the success story.

I really just migrated over time to Linux and then had to give mac a
whirl.
I'm working right now on my Kubuntu laptop with a G5 sitting on the
other
side.  I feel alienated on Windows any more, because I simply don't know
the
toolset very well.  My job is writing Ruby code for Linux (KDE
currently), so
life is good.  There's really not a whole lot to say but start using it,
and
you'll break it a few times, sure, but you'll learn and start feeling
like
you mastered it too.
9eb71600b418cfc18f496b5840ca7e1a?d=identicon&s=25 cjs (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 02:40
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Sam Kong wrote:

> This is not about Ruby itself but about OS.
> The reason that I ask this question in this group is that I've been
> motivated to use other OS's than Windows by this group while I learned
> Ruby.

I think that's an awful reason to ask here. This mailing list already
gets a couple of hundred messages per day (142 since I last looked about
15 hours ago), and is hard enough to follow as it is.

I would give a lot for a list that a) didn't have blatently off-topic
stuff, and b) restricted all members to one post per thread and one new
thread per day. As it is, too often I come in and just delete everything
because I don't have time to figure out what's worthwhile and what's
not.

Ok, there's my complaint for the day. :-)

cjs
37a3c73ffbf864e4b28f7f2384ee12ce?d=identicon&s=25 Timothy Hunter (tim-hunter)
on 2005-11-22 02:48
(Received via mailing list)
Curt Sampson wrote:
> I would give a lot for a list that a) didn't have blatently off-topic
> stuff, and b) restricted all members to one post per thread and one new
> thread per day. As it is, too often I come in and just delete everything
> because I don't have time to figure out what's worthwhile and what's not.

Curt, meet Usenet. Usenet, Curt.

I read comp.lang.ruby with Thunderbird. I can hide an entire thread
(including this one) by typing "K". I do it frequently.
86e33dee4a89a8879a26487051c216a8?d=identicon&s=25 m.fellinger (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 02:52
(Received via mailing list)
Am Montag 21 November 2005 18:12 schrieb Sam Kong:
> This question is not meant to bring flame wars!
>
> I use Windows at my work and home.
> Of course, I tried several linux OS's (RedHat, SUSE, Debian, Gentoo,
> Ubuntu) and this year I even purchased Mini Mac.
> However, I haven't succeeded to make myself used to these OS's.
>

well, cannot say anything about mac - my overall-use of it comes to
about...
well - 2 hours :)
i just never got around to buy one of these things.

> I have some questions to linux users and Mac users.
>
> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
> text-mode or graphic-mode?
>

both... it depends on the task at hand.
when i'm working on web-apps i my ubuntu-box is going to be the tool fo
doing
it - i have KDE running (with 3d and all fancy stuff - even osx feeling
:) -
and i _love_ eye-candy from time to time.
The stuff i have running on it is Kontact (for RSS, mail and
addressbook) -
gaim (for kopete is crashing all the time) and of course three different
editors, fitting for my tasks at hand. When i'm doing quick editing of
some
stuff i use nano, wich saved me so far from learning both vi or emacs -
(actually i know a bit vi, but it is just enough for survival), when i'm
doing web-related stuff i tend to use Kate - and for heavy
web-api-editing i
prefer JEdit, wich has excellent features and plugins for ruby
(highlighting,
code-completion, rdoc-integration, automagically adding 'end' and some
other
stuff [oh, almost forgot the code-browser that displays your
classes/methods
in a nice way])
My console on this computer is yakuake, it just feels good to have your
console behaving like a quake one (but with having tabs for switching
around).
My equipment is a nice trackball (that has saved me from RSI) and one of
those
highend-ergonomic-keyboards that just cry out to be used for coding ^^

> 2. I've never succeeded to make my laptops work perfectly on Linux.
> Sometimes, network card is not working, other times, USB is not
> recognized, or Sound card is not working. I've tried on 5 different
> laptops with different Linux but none was perfect. How do you overcome
> this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
> problem.
>

right next to this box is the extreme opposite - a really minimal WM on
top of
grml ( http://www.grml.org ) wich is a distribution for 'users of the
commandline and system-administrators' - i'm in love with it as well -
it
runs on my laptop and serves me well when i'm traveling.
another use for it is IRC - wich is one of the permanent things that i
have
open, as well as my music that i play using xmms... i rarely use the
mouse on
this one at all, maybe on one of the rare occassions that i open a
webpage on
it - but i can even control xmms without a mouse at all.
WIFI, sound, usb, burning cd/dvd... everything working fine on it.

> 3. For Mac users, do you feel OK with the simple mouse? Probably I'm
> too accustomed to Windows mouse. Whenever I use Mac, I miss the
> right-button and scroll-wheel.
>
> If anybody has experience of moving from Windows to Linux or Mac,
> please share the success story.
>

[ONLY READ THAT IF YOU HAVE LOTS OF TIME - I AM TIRED AND ONLY ENJOY MY
KEYBOARD WHILE TYPING THE STORY OF MY LIFE ;]

well, my little success-story is a quite long one - but everything
started
with one of the first linux-live-cds that were ever released (i just
cannot
remind what the name of it was) - for everyone reading gamestar since a
long
time you might know it...
I tried it - installed it - used it - kicked it from my harddisk again.
the problem was that while it wasn't that bad - i just didn't know what
do do
now - i tried to start some games that i had from windows but it didn't
work
- so since my main-use for a computer was playing back then i went back
to
windows... but with a big deal of critizism of what M$ was doing
wrong...
So i was lurking around, always on the quest for a linux that i could
use -
some day my brother brought me a copy of suse 6.4 - and i was
overwhelmed
what had changed in the meanwhile (might have been 2 years) - compared
to the
changes of windows (well - no changes at all)
since that day i'm a kde-monkey... i just never got used to the
look'n'feel of
gnome.
while having linux was great - it still wasn't mature enough for me -
crashing
stuff - bad sound-drivers and worst of all - no really addictive games
:)
so i used it for about a week and gave it a good-bye-wave after that.

After that experience i always waited for some distro that was
ultimate...
later i tried suse 7.2 and finally it was what i searched for (or so i
thought) - after about a month of using it i was deeply disappointed -
the
reason? RPM - after searching some days for all neccesary rpms for
upgrading
your kde you don't laugh about it... after a while my skills in
searching
rpms was getting better, but it still was less than satisfying...
some day i stumbled upon apt-rpm and found what i was searching for:
automagically searching for my dependencies.
It worked well, until it broke my system.

This was the day i decided to try the distro where the idea for apt-rpm
was
from - that was debian.
downloading some cds and burning them was a matter of some hours - and
when i
finally installed it, it was great!
apt-get install this that and this one as well

until i tried to compile stuff, wich worked for some time - but after a
while
my system got messed up.
so i came to the conclusion that i would try yet another distro... after
some
searching i found what i was looking for: gentoo - a distro made from
source
for source.

gentoo was a great experience - it taught me a lot of stuff, how the
internal
systems worked together, how to compile efficiently, what the stuff in /
is
all about, how to edit configs... short - everything i needed to
administrate
a linux-system fairly well.
It was a hard school, but i enjoyed it - some day ubuntu was appearing
on the
horizont, and i have had enough of hours compiling stuff. I decided to
get
back to apt-get, and so i came to kubuntu.

Installing it was a joy, everything was going smooth (i tried it on my
laptop
before) - i had what i needed, after about a year of gentoo, finally no
need
for intensive system-care anymore :)

this was, until i realized how inefficient KDE for some tasks is - and i
decided to split it like what i have now - a design-overloaded
system-for-joy, and one for real crunching and relaxing. Now i'm almost
at
the limit of my own effectivness and can say that the game i play now,
is
linux and ruby :)

I don't look back to windows at all, it was the most unproductive time
in my
life.
Bc6d88907ce09158581fbb9b469a35a3?d=identicon&s=25 james_b (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 02:56
(Received via mailing list)
Curt Sampson wrote:
> 15 hours ago), and is hard enough to follow as it is.
>
> I would give a lot for a list that a) didn't have blatently off-topic
> stuff,

But blatantly OT items usually have [OT] in the subject line, so
filtering is trivial.


> and b) restricted all members to one post per thread and one new
> thread per day. As it is, too often I come in and just delete everything
> because I don't have time to figure out what's worthwhile and what's not.
>

How about if we have to raise our hand to go to the bathroom, too?

Seriously, I often have problems scanning the new items to see what's
worth perusing and what's not, but the use of filters and virtual
folders in Thunderbird helps a great deal.

I learn all sorts of handy stuff quite unexpectedly, and figure if
anything earthshaking is discussed, and I miss the thread, I'll hear
about one way or another.

The accidental is part of the fun.


James


--

http://www.ruby-doc.org       - Ruby Help & Documentation
http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - Ruby Code & Style: Writers wanted
http://www.rubystuff.com      - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com     - Playing with Better Toys
http://www.30secondrule.com   - Building Better Tools
Ca0b18ec9e11dc777b2b8084fe5d5f90?d=identicon&s=25 sam.s.kong (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 03:00
(Received via mailing list)
Hi!

Curt Sampson wrote:
> I think that's an awful reason to ask here. This mailing list already
> gets a couple of hundred messages per day (142 since I last looked about
> 15 hours ago), and is hard enough to follow as it is.
>
> I would give a lot for a list that a) didn't have blatently off-topic
> stuff, and b) restricted all members to one post per thread and one new
> thread per day. As it is, too often I come in and just delete everything
> because I don't have time to figure out what's worthwhile and what's not.
>
> Ok, there's my complaint for the day. :-)

You're right.
Actually I hesitated when I posted my question in this group.
Beside the *awful* reason I gave, I also wanted to know how ruby
developers select and use their OS.
I didn't care about other people in other groups.
I respect ruby users and wanted to get opinions from them and follow
them.

By the way, I put [OT] in the subject line when I posted via google but
it doesn't show up now.
Is google hiding it?

Please accept my apology for the off-topic posting.

Sam
9dfe8c734b0f9b37a4e218425c0a2138?d=identicon&s=25 gene.tani (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 03:00
(Received via mailing list)
James Britt wrote:
> >>this problem? Well... if you use just a text-mode, this might not be a
>
Don't know where you are, but find a dealer with a reasonable
restocking fee (like 0%) & return period like, you know, Amazon).
stick to the best known lines (Toshiba, IBM have been pretty good as
far as compatibility, reasonable component life.  Well, good Toshibas
are good, bad Toshibas are real lemons),   I'm too lazy to try anything
beyond FreeBSD and SUSE linux (ok, shoot me), but they seem to do APM
and ACPI (don't do Logitech scroll wheels, tho).  Remember Larry Wall's
1st virtue!  Larry was right about this!  FreeBSD: the Complete FreeBSD
(greg lahey) and FreeBSD handbook are all you need to get your window
manager up (or you can do everythin in emacs.  I don't, but you can ;-}

And I've been using OS X for a few days.  Think different, look at
Oreilly's OS X  Tiger for unix geeks.  Metadata?  Objective-C++?  Fink?
 Darwinports?  For me, there's going to be lot sof adaptation required,
but they fixed the scary stuff, like you can "cp" and "mv" files
without screwing up resource forks and metadata (that's what the book
says, anyway).  If you still want a slow descent into do-it-yourself
WTF-ness, try to get a python 2.4 install on it without resorting to
(the brand-new) ActiveState release.  Powerbooks have nice displays and
video cards now, the mighty mouse I'm not sure about.
9eb71600b418cfc18f496b5840ca7e1a?d=identicon&s=25 cjs (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 03:20
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Timothy Hunter wrote:

> Curt, meet Usenet. Usenet, Curt.

After a twelve-year relationship, Usenet and I "unmet" around 1995, for
pretty much exactly posts like yours.

cjs
9eb71600b418cfc18f496b5840ca7e1a?d=identicon&s=25 cjs (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 03:25
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Timothy Hunter wrote:

> Curt, meet Usenet. Usenet, Curt.

(Oh, and yes, I do use a threading reader for this list.)

cjs
4feed660d3728526797edeb4f0467384?d=identicon&s=25 billk (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 03:29
(Received via mailing list)
From: "Curt Sampson" <cjs@cynic.net>
>
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Timothy Hunter wrote:
>
>> Curt, meet Usenet. Usenet, Curt.
>
> (Oh, and yes, I do use a threading reader for this list.)

Can your reader be configured to automatically junk [OT]
posts?  (Not intended as a snide retort, just honestly
wondering.)


Regards,

Bill
40f575876fd39850c6f9599c361ebae8?d=identicon&s=25 idylls (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 04:29
(Received via mailing list)
Le Nov 21, 2005 à 7:48 PM, Michael Fellinger a écrit :
> well, cannot say anything about mac - my overall-use of it comes to
> about...
> well - 2 hours :)
> i just never got around to buy one of these things.

Tried a mac lately? I find os x to be unix enough that it doesn't
matter. And /opt/local is my new favorite for "special" compiles.

>> I have some questions to linux users and Mac users.
>>
>> 1. When you use Ruby on Linux or just in general on Linux, do you use
>> text-mode or graphic-mode?

Text mode for almost everything. I am a Windows->Linux->Linux+Mac
+Solaris convert.

>> If anybody has experience of moving from Windows to Linux or Mac,
>> please share the success story.

Hi my name is Mitch, and I converted from Windows to almost a pure
Unix setup about 7 years ago. Kept windows only for mmorpgs. Which
thankfully I am over now. :) BeOS fits in there somewhere too.

I prefer Gentoo for my Linux though. Less cruft if you install it
properly from stage 1, though this is NOT for new to unix users(that
is stage 3 :). And Vim is your friend. Just get the ruby-macros.vim
so you have less to type.

Trying to keep this short because I bet nobody cares about my
conversion.

Ciao!
9eb71600b418cfc18f496b5840ca7e1a?d=identicon&s=25 cjs (Guest)
on 2005-11-22 08:10
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Bill Kelly wrote:

> From: "Curt Sampson" <cjs@cynic.net>
>>
>> (Oh, and yes, I do use a threading reader for this list.)
>
> Can your reader be configured to automatically junk [OT] posts? (Not
> intended as a snide retort, just honestly wondering.)

Yes. I use Pine, which is actually fairly sophisticated these days
(sophisticated enough that I, as a programmer, haven't yet found it
worth switching to mutt). Surprisingly, it's also still reasonably easy
for a novice to use.

Or I could junk them in my procmail filters as well. But whilst that
helps the S/N ratio somewhat, I still find even the on-topic stuff more
wordy than it has to be.

I don't know how many people are on this list, but I'm suspecting
several thousand. That means that a post that takes someone three
seconds to open, scan and delete could easily be using up 2-3 hours
of the collective time of people on this list. Programmers are paid
reasonably well, so you could say that a short post to this list is
going to cost a minimum of $50, and could easily go into the thousands
of dollars for something that takes a bit more reading time.

So ask yourself, when you post: is it really worth spending that much
money on my posting?

cjs
This topic is locked and can not be replied to.