Forum: Ruby new.ruby-lang.org (was: Re: Proposing: A new Ruby Windows in

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F889bf17449ffbf62345d2b2d316a937?d=identicon&s=25 Michal Suchanek (Guest)
on 2006-05-26 16:39
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/24/06, James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:
> On May 23, 2006, at 4:46 PM, Douglas Livingstone wrote:
>
> > There was a nice redesign with some momenutum about it a while back,
> > but it seems to have gotten lost somewhere :-(
>
> Not at all.  We've made tons of progress on it just recently.  Behold:
>
> http://new.ruby-lang.org/

Yes, it looks very "professional". But the blue stripes on each side
of the page take way too much space. Perhaps my browser window is
larger than that of the person who designed the web?

I say "professional" because it is that sort of good looking slick
design that uses pixel alignement. It is probably the type of design
that appeals to managers and computer illiterate people. If it happens
that they can see it on their screens because they got a "normal"
screen.
Not that pixels are the root of all evil in web design, just almost
all. Such web is not scalable, it is the same size (in pixels)
irregardless of the user's screen (window) size and dpi.

This is the standard these days, many web sites do it. And some do
not. The fact that many did the same error is not an excuse for doing
it again.

I appreciate the work you put into the new design. But it looks like I
will not be the one who appreciates the results of the work. I was
afraid the new design will be like this, and so it is.

Thanks

Michal
4299e35bacef054df40583da2d51edea?d=identicon&s=25 James Gray (bbazzarrakk)
on 2006-05-26 16:45
(Received via mailing list)
On May 26, 2006, at 9:37 AM, Michal Suchanek wrote:

> all. Such web is not scalable, it is the same size (in pixels)
> irregardless of the user's screen (window) size and dpi.
>
> This is the standard these days, many web sites do it. And some do
> not. The fact that many did the same error is not an excuse for doing
> it again.
>
> I appreciate the work you put into the new design. But it looks like I
> will not be the one who appreciates the results of the work. I was
> afraid the new design will be like this, and so it is.

This site is in a CMS, so it is trivial to replace the entire look of
the site, should we need to down the road.  Let's try to keep the
focus where it belongs, on content and getting it launched.

James Edward Gray II
Dbd043208c868f4ffc4f7637530eeaf4?d=identicon&s=25 Chris (Guest)
on 2006-05-26 16:52
I think it looks great! Any reason we haven't switched yet?

I think setting the fixed size is a good idea.  Seen too many felxable
sites where  text gets illegibly overlapped because the layout is
dynamic and doesn't have the room it expects/needs.
Fc784eadb3b54531fdc3d2053db6f83f?d=identicon&s=25 Mat Schaffer (Guest)
on 2006-05-26 16:55
(Received via mailing list)
On May 26, 2006, at 10:37 AM, Michal Suchanek wrote:

> On 5/24/06, James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:
>> On May 23, 2006, at 4:46 PM, Douglas Livingstone wrote:
>>
>> http://new.ruby-lang.org/
...
> Not that pixels are the root of all evil in web design, just almost
> all. Such web is not scalable, it is the same size (in pixels)
> irregardless of the user's screen (window) size and dpi.
>
> This is the standard these days, many web sites do it. And some do
> not. The fact that many did the same error is not an excuse for doing
> it again.

In my recent dealings with visual design people, I understand the
problem with scalable sites is that you don't know what you're line
length is going to be anymore.  Which makes visual paragraph flow
hard to dictate.  Hence the fixed widths.   If that offers any
consolation.

But the new site looks very nice, I think.  Fixed width is a
necessary evil until something better than HTML/CSS2 comes along.
4299e35bacef054df40583da2d51edea?d=identicon&s=25 James Gray (bbazzarrakk)
on 2006-05-26 16:58
(Received via mailing list)
On May 26, 2006, at 9:52 AM, Chris wrote:

> I think it looks great! Any reason we haven't switched yet?

Yes, we're not finished with the content, but we are hard at work on it.

James Edward Gray II
89d967359903c639d31e4cad4569f537?d=identicon&s=25 Charlie Bowman (Guest)
on 2006-05-26 17:27
(Received via mailing list)
Beautiful site!

Are there going to be any new features to the site?
Will it have any new integrated wikis?




On Fri, 2006-05-26 at 23:42 +0900, James Edward Gray II wrote:

> > screen.
> > afraid the new design will be like this, and so it is.
>
> This site is in a CMS, so it is trivial to replace the entire look of
> the site, should we need to down the road.  Let's try to keep the
> focus where it belongs, on content and getting it launched.
>
> James Edward Gray II
>
>


Charlie Bowman
http://www.recentrambles.com
4299e35bacef054df40583da2d51edea?d=identicon&s=25 James Gray (bbazzarrakk)
on 2006-05-26 18:17
(Received via mailing list)
On May 26, 2006, at 10:25 AM, Charlie Bowman wrote:

> Are there going to be any new features to the site?

Yes, it's easier for us to maintain.  Hopefully that will translate
to better content for all.

> Will it have any new integrated wikis?

No.

James Edward Gray II
47b36de21d7ecbc824c81d24802a6290?d=identicon&s=25 Minkoo Seo (pool007)
on 2006-05-26 20:51
(Received via mailing list)
Wow! New design is awesome!
74361169979a843b3a5c12d81000debc?d=identicon&s=25 Jon Egil Strand (Guest)
on 2006-05-27 11:59
(Received via mailing list)
On Fri, 26 May 2006, Chris wrote:

> I think it looks great!

Brilliant! Great work!


Jon Egil Strand
Phone: +47 98232340
jes@luretanker.no
F889bf17449ffbf62345d2b2d316a937?d=identicon&s=25 Michal Suchanek (Guest)
on 2006-05-27 16:23
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/26/06, Mat Schaffer <schapht@gmail.com> wrote:
> > irregardless of the user's screen (window) size and dpi.
> >
> > This is the standard these days, many web sites do it. And some do
> > not. The fact that many did the same error is not an excuse for doing
> > it again.
>
> In my recent dealings with visual design people, I understand the
> problem with scalable sites is that you don't know what you're line
> length is going to be anymore.  Which makes visual paragraph flow
> hard to dictate.  Hence the fixed widths.   If that offers any
> consolation.

That is a mistake of the visual design people. You do not know the
line length anyway.
First, you do not hand-adjust the paragraph layout for every piece of
content on the site.
Second, even if you do, the person who displays the site may get a
different font with different width, or render the site with a
different sized font so that it is easily readable. If you disallow
font scaling (specify the font sizes in pixels) you should get
generally similar layout unless the used font happens to have very
different relative width. Even then most browsers would allow changing
the font size anyway. If they do not (like IE) the site either
displays in huge letters on low-dpi screens or is unreadable on
high-dpi screens.

Just a while ago we bought new displays for a few people here. They
happened to be high-dpi, and our web site was unreadable on them. And
our visual experts said it is not their priority. That much for visual
experts :)
>
> But the new site looks very nice, I think.  Fixed width is a
> necessary evil until something better than HTML/CSS2 comes along.

Yes, it looks very nice. And if you know nothing about web design and
happen to have a "normal" screen you would not suspect a thing.

Thanks

Michal
F889bf17449ffbf62345d2b2d316a937?d=identicon&s=25 Michal Suchanek (Guest)
on 2006-05-27 16:26
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/26/06, James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:
> > screen.
> > afraid the new design will be like this, and so it is.
>
> This site is in a CMS, so it is trivial to replace the entire look of
> the site, should we need to down the road.  Let's try to keep the
> focus where it belongs, on content and getting it launched.
>

yes, I would like a new site as well. And the modifications to the
stylesheet to make better use of screen space should be trivial.

Is there a todo list somewhere where I could look if I felt like
having too much free time?

Thanks

Michal
F889bf17449ffbf62345d2b2d316a937?d=identicon&s=25 Michal Suchanek (Guest)
on 2006-05-27 16:48
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/26/06, Chris <hulachr@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I think it looks great! Any reason we haven't switched yet?
>
> I think setting the fixed size is a good idea.  Seen too many felxable
> sites where  text gets illegibly overlapped because the layout is
> dynamic and doesn't have the room it expects/needs.

The fact that you can get a dynamic-sized web page wrong does not mean
such pages should not be done. To extend it a bit, just because there
are too many bad web sites I would not give up on the idea of creating
a web site.

Thanks

Michal
4299e35bacef054df40583da2d51edea?d=identicon&s=25 James Gray (bbazzarrakk)
on 2006-05-27 17:25
(Received via mailing list)
On May 27, 2006, at 9:25 AM, Michal Suchanek wrote:

> Is there a todo list somewhere where I could look if I felt like
> having too much free time?

We have a Basecamp project.  We'll probably see about opening up or
planning post launch.

James Edward Gray II
F5b3c1ebfb2e9fc5f67bb48b119f6054?d=identicon&s=25 Randy Kramer (Guest)
on 2006-05-28 01:24
(Received via mailing list)
On Saturday 27 May 2006 10:20 am, Michal Suchanek wrote:
> On 5/26/06, Mat Schaffer <schapht@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 26, 2006, at 10:37 AM, Michal Suchanek wrote:
> > > On 5/24/06, James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:
> > >> On May 23, 2006, at 4:46 PM, Douglas Livingstone wrote:
> > >>
> > >> http://new.ruby-lang.org/

Not sure to whom(?) to mention this, but when I view that site with
images
turned off (my preference) it is very difficult to read (dark text on a
dark
background).  Works OK with images turned on.

My guess is that the background is an image?

Can the site be made so that it defaults to a light background if images
are
off?

Randy Kramer
4299e35bacef054df40583da2d51edea?d=identicon&s=25 James Gray (bbazzarrakk)
on 2006-05-28 02:26
(Received via mailing list)
On May 27, 2006, at 6:23 PM, Randy Kramer wrote:

> turned off (my preference) it is very difficult to read (dark text
> on a dark
> background).  Works OK with images turned on.
>
> My guess is that the background is an image?
>
> Can the site be made so that it defaults to a light background if
> images are
> off?

I forwarded this to the designer.  We will look into this.

Thanks for bringing it up.

James Edward Gray II
E2a9d30a2487a924165aaaa016b54f87?d=identicon&s=25 C Erler (Guest)
on 2006-05-28 19:17
(Received via mailing list)
_why's try ruby website (http://tryruby.hobix.com/) is very nice for two
reasons: it allows anyone to see what the fuss is about without wasting
time
installing Ruby (which is a bit off-putting for all of us lazy people)
and
it allows anyone sitting at a computer without Ruby on it to do quick
Ruby
things.

On the new ruby-lang website, can you please put a link to it ?  Perhaps
the
twenty minute tutorial link can be replaced (since _why's site has a
built-in tutorial) or this can be added as "Web-based irb for when the
computer owner is evil and doesn't let you install Ruby" (or some better
description) or both.
6a123f6f033e0f67a5a729828773b974?d=identicon&s=25 Jared Nuzzolillo (Guest)
on 2006-05-29 00:35
(Received via mailing list)
W e should definitely include a link to tryruby. That app has equipped
me to
convince several of my friends who wouldn't touch ruby with a ten foot
pole
(if it meant downloading it) to actually sit down and give it a spin. I
even
managed to get a friend who isn't into programming to try it out.

I also thought I should take a moment to comment on the Greeter code
sample.  I  remember  commenting on the concept when the  redesign was
first
being considered, and I still think a prominent code sample is
essential.
But I am reconsidering whether that specific code sample is worthy of
being
the very first snippet of ruby code many people will see. When I am
examining a new language, the very first thing I do is try to find
sample
code. Oftentimes, that sample code is a "Hello World" program. Some
potential rubyists might mistakenly assume that the sample is an
illustration of how a terse "Hello World" program should be in ruby.
Maybe
we can use some other samples, including a standard, terse "Hello
World".
Here are two 'sample examples':

#hello world
puts "Hello world"

#add a method to an existing class
class Fixnum
    def double
        self * 2
    end
end

puts 10.double #use the new method

There are other great examples (which may be more appropriate than those
I
listed) at Io's sample code page -
http://www.iolanguage.com/about/samplecode/

A great big thanks to all of those who have worked on the new ruby site.
It
really is beautiful~

Best,
Jared Nuzzolillo
A402df36168b81b31c17adcbb5ae8cf4?d=identicon&s=25 Pistos Christou (pistos)
on 2006-05-29 18:22
Jared Nuzzolillo wrote:
> I also thought I should take a moment to comment on the Greeter code
> sample.  I  remember  commenting on the concept when the  redesign was
> first
> being considered, and I still think a prominent code sample is
> essential.
> But I am reconsidering whether that specific code sample is worthy of
> being
> the very first snippet of ruby code many people will see. When I am

Minor additional issue:

g = Greeter.new("World")

If we're capitalizing @name, why are we giving it an already-capitalized
"World" instead of a lowercase "world" or a mixed case "wOrLd"?

Pistos
E5ec9b6ca1abfbc576837f11baed1d59?d=identicon&s=25 Christopher Kruse (ckruse)
on 2006-05-30 00:41
Pistos Christou wrote:
> Minor additional issue:
>
> g = Greeter.new("World")
>
> If we're capitalizing @name, why are we giving it an already-capitalized
> "World" instead of a lowercase "world" or a mixed case "wOrLd"?
>
> Pistos

It's done that way so that it works with a variety of solutions.  It
might not do anything in this case, but put something else in, and it's
gonna work for it.

I do agree on changing the example to reflect a change in #{name}
though.

Chris
4299e35bacef054df40583da2d51edea?d=identicon&s=25 James Gray (bbazzarrakk)
on 2006-05-30 02:27
(Received via mailing list)
On May 28, 2006, at 12:15 PM, C Erler wrote:

> _why's try ruby website (http://tryruby.hobix.com/) is very nice...

> On the new ruby-lang website, can you please put a link to it ?

There was already a link here:

http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/documentation/

I have now added it to the sidebar as well.

James Edward Gray II
4299e35bacef054df40583da2d51edea?d=identicon&s=25 James Gray (bbazzarrakk)
on 2006-05-30 02:30
(Received via mailing list)
On May 29, 2006, at 2:28 PM, Pistos Christou wrote:

>
> Minor additional issue:
>
> g = Greeter.new("World")
>
> If we're capitalizing @name, why are we giving it an already-
> capitalized
> "World" instead of a lowercase "world" or a mixed case "wOrLd"?

I have fixed this:

http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/

James Edward Gray II
Bd0203dc8478deb969d72f52e741bd4f?d=identicon&s=25 Daniel Baird (Guest)
on 2006-05-30 03:19
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/30/06, James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:
>
>
> > _why's try ruby website (http://tryruby.hobix.com/) is very nice...
> > On the new ruby-lang website, can you please put a link to it ?
>
> There was already a link here:
> http://new.ruby-lang.org/en/documentation/
> I have now added it to the sidebar as well.


If you mean the "Try Ruby" link, it's pointing at the downloads page
(I'm
guessing you copied-and-pasted the link below?)

;D
4299e35bacef054df40583da2d51edea?d=identicon&s=25 James Gray (bbazzarrakk)
on 2006-05-30 05:15
(Received via mailing list)
On May 29, 2006, at 8:18 PM, Daniel Baird wrote:

>
> If you mean the "Try Ruby" link, it's pointing at the downloads
> page (I'm
> guessing you copied-and-pasted the link below?)

It's fixed now.

Thank you.

James Edward Gray II
A402df36168b81b31c17adcbb5ae8cf4?d=identicon&s=25 Pistos Christou (pistos)
on 2006-05-30 21:47
James Gray wrote:
>> If you mean the "Try Ruby" link, it's pointing at the downloads
>> page (I'm
>> guessing you copied-and-pasted the link below?)
>
> It's fixed now.
> James Edward Gray II

Really minor nitpick which can be ignored if desired *grin*:

Perhaps it would be more enticing or accurately reflect the nature of
things if the link text were "Try Ruby Online".  Some may get the
impression that the link goes to download-and-install instructions, but
if the word "online" were included, people that might initially be
dissuaded by their wrong assumption would instead not have that mental
obstacle.

Pistos
D15ebdc986c8964c95fbb38dd4474364?d=identicon&s=25 Eric (Guest)
on 2006-05-30 23:54
James Gray wrote:
[snip]
>
> This site is in a CMS,
[snip]

What CMS is it running? It looks nice!

Eric
4299e35bacef054df40583da2d51edea?d=identicon&s=25 James Gray (bbazzarrakk)
on 2006-05-31 00:24
(Received via mailing list)
On May 30, 2006, at 4:54 PM, Eric wrote:

> James Gray wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> This site is in a CMS,
> [snip]
>
> What CMS is it running?

http://radiantcms.org/

James Edward Gray II
4299e35bacef054df40583da2d51edea?d=identicon&s=25 James Gray (bbazzarrakk)
on 2006-06-01 02:18
(Received via mailing list)
On May 30, 2006, at 2:47 PM, Pistos Christou wrote:

> Perhaps it would be more enticing or accurately reflect the nature of
> things if the link text were "Try Ruby Online".  Some may get the
> impression that the link goes to download-and-install instructions,
> but
> if the word "online" were included, people that might initially be
> dissuaded by their wrong assumption would instead not have that mental
> obstacle.

I added "(in your browser)".

James Edward Gray II
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