Forum: Ruby Ruby community website / forum

Announcement (2017-05-07): www.ruby-forum.com is now read-only since I unfortunately do not have the time to support and maintain the forum any more. Please see rubyonrails.org/community and ruby-lang.org/en/community for other Rails- und Ruby-related community platforms.
Fc761ccaf6c0d7d977e2959f9bfebd06?d=identicon&s=25 Eli Bendersky (Guest)
on 2006-05-05 16:47
Coming from Perl, what I miss in Ruby the most is (surprise !) not CPAN,
but rather the community at Perlmonks (http://perlmonks.org).

For those not familiar with Perlmonks, it's a community website that's
actually a collection of forums, subdivided into topics, with registered
users that receive ratings from fellow users for each post / reply.

Two aspects make Perlmonks great:

1) It's a *true* forum. With all due respect to RForum powering
"ruby-forum.com", a real forum must at the very least support
hierarchical threading correctly, and allow to post text with simple
formatting, especially for source code.

2) It is very active, and the vast majority of Perl hackers hang out
there, from the nubies to the prominent leaders of the Perl community.

Thus, I know that if I have a question, I can always turn to Perlmonks
for an answer. The topics are organized logically in hierarchical
threads, and logs date years back, making everything easy to find. The
moderation system makes the signal-to-noise ratio very high (you can use
the rating of posts to filter stuff similarly to Slashdot, and the
trolls / spams can be simply deleted by moderators).

Ruby has three loosely connected community entry-points:

1) The mailing list - an old-fashioned (at least IMHO) way to
communicate, lacking hierarchy and formatting (try following the
discussion in one of the most recent 50+ message threads).

2) ruby-forum.com - a gateway to the mailing list, which disconnects
from time to time. It's not a true forum, and suffers heavily from being
connected to the maillist, topics being split to "Re:" topics from time
to time, and long discussions are impossible to follow.

3) comp.lang.ruby - a mostly-nonfunctional gateway to the list, which in
itself is probably the closest Ruby has to a normal forum, since it's
hierarchical and enjoys the excellent built-in Google search.

When I have a Ruby question, I truly don't know where to ask it, so I
ask everywhere, which may sometime annoy people (on days when the
gateways function). I much prefer the newsgroup, but when the gateway
doesn't work, it is much less read, so answers take a long time in
arriving. Am I the only one with this experience ?

I truly feel that a single place for the community is very important.
Ruby has a big potential for such a community because it's a fun
language. People who code in Ruby really enjoy coding, and enjoy
discussing it. I just know that a more cohesive place for the community
to "meet" online would make Ruby and even more enjoyable experience.
Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way ?

Eli
2ffac40f8a985a2b2749244b8a1c4161?d=identicon&s=25 Mike Stok (Guest)
on 2006-05-05 17:15
(Received via mailing list)
On 5-May-06, at 10:47 AM, Eli Bendersky wrote:

> Coming from Perl, what I miss in Ruby the most is (surprise !) not
> CPAN,
> but rather the community at Perlmonks (http://perlmonks.org).

[...]

> time
> doesn't work, it is much less read, so answers take a long time in
> arriving. Am I the only one with this experience ?
>
> I truly feel that a single place for the community is very important.
> Ruby has a big potential for such a community because it's a fun
> language. People who code in Ruby really enjoy coding, and enjoy
> discussing it. I just know that a more cohesive place for the
> community
> to "meet" online would make Ruby and even more enjoyable experience.
> Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way ?

I second your opinion of Perlmonks, a fine site with a good signal to
noise ratio.  About as good a community web site as I have seen.

Being an old fashioned guy I like a mailing list for Ruby, and my
mail reader can do a reasonable job of pseudo-threading the posts
when I need them.  I have pretty much given up on newsgroups these days.

Mike

--

Mike Stok <mike@stok.ca>
http://www.stok.ca/~mike/

The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.
31ab75f7ddda241830659630746cdd3a?d=identicon&s=25 Austin Ziegler (Guest)
on 2006-05-05 17:21
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/5/06, Eli Bendersky <eliben@gmail.com> wrote:
> Two aspects make Perlmonks great:
> 1) It's a *true* forum. With all due respect to RForum powering
> "ruby-forum.com", a real forum must at the very least support
> hierarchical threading correctly, and allow to post text with simple
> formatting, especially for source code.

I haven't spent much time at Perlmonks, but I hate visiting there when
someone points out something "interesting." It's almost as bad as LtU.

> 2) It is very active, and the vast majority of Perl hackers hang out
> there, from the nubies to the prominent leaders of the Perl community.

This is true of ruby-talk. The best place to get an answer about Ruby
is on ruby-talk.

> 1) The mailing list - an old-fashioned (at least IMHO) way to
> communicate, lacking hierarchy and formatting (try following the
> discussion in one of the most recent 50+ message threads).

I have no problem doing that. I use Gmail which makes it easier, but a
good threading client helps as well.

> 2) ruby-forum.com - a gateway to the mailing list, which disconnects
> from time to time. It's not a true forum, and suffers heavily from being
> connected to the maillist, topics being split to "Re:" topics from time
> to time, and long discussions are impossible to follow.

I would agree.

> 3) comp.lang.ruby - a mostly-nonfunctional gateway to the list, which in
> itself is probably the closest Ruby has to a normal forum, since it's
> hierarchical and enjoys the excellent built-in Google search.

*shrug* It's not really hierarchical. It follows the same standards
that the mailing list does for references.

> When I have a Ruby question, I truly don't know where to ask it, so I
> ask everywhere, which may sometime annoy people (on days when the
> gateways function). I much prefer the newsgroup, but when the gateway
> doesn't work, it is much less read, so answers take a long time in
> arriving. Am I the only one with this experience ?

Ask ruby-talk. The mailing list. This is the core that everything else
reflects to.

-austin
A402df36168b81b31c17adcbb5ae8cf4?d=identicon&s=25 Pistos Christou (pistos)
on 2006-05-05 19:33
Eli Bendersky wrote:
> 1) It's a *true* forum. With all due respect to RForum powering
> "ruby-forum.com", a real forum must at the very least support
> hierarchical threading correctly, and allow to post text with simple
> formatting, especially for source code.
[snip]
> discussing it. I just know that a more cohesive place for the community
> to "meet" online would make Ruby and even more enjoyable experience.
> Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way ?

I agree that having a single place to look keeps things simple and
centralized (perhaps I'm stating the obvious there).  Whether it's good
or bad (I'm not making a statement either way), the community seems to
have gravitated to ruby-talk, the mailing list.

I don't use it directly per se, but I do use it indirectly through
ruby-forum.com, which suits my needs.

I think RForum updates and improvements would go a long way.  I don't
know how keen Andreas is on accepting patches.

Pistos
34f159f89cbd1d9beac0276f5a7af552?d=identicon&s=25 John Gabriele (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 06:46
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/5/06, Eli Bendersky <eliben@gmail.com> wrote:
> Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way ?
Ok, ok. I've heard enough... You're hired! :)

My suggestion (for anyone reading this who might like to embark on
such a project) is to look at what software is available, then decide
if you'd like to use one of those choices or else if you'd rather roll
your own. After you've got something running locally that you're happy
with, find someone who can host it live (you might ask here, when
you're ready to go live).

Note though, that anyone can put up a customized phpBB. But to get
people to use it, and to measure up to the mighty perlmonks, you'll
very probably need something more than that.
Fc761ccaf6c0d7d977e2959f9bfebd06?d=identicon&s=25 Eli Bendersky (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 07:44
John Gabriele wrote:
> On 5/5/06, Eli Bendersky <eliben@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Surely I'm not the only one who feels this way ?
> Ok, ok. I've heard enough... You're hired! :)
>
> My suggestion (for anyone reading this who might like to embark on
> such a project) is to look at what software is available, then decide
> if you'd like to use one of those choices or else if you'd rather roll
> your own. After you've got something running locally that you're happy
> with, find someone who can host it live (you might ask here, when
> you're ready to go live).
>
> Note though, that anyone can put up a customized phpBB. But to get
> people to use it, and to measure up to the mighty perlmonks, you'll
> very probably need something more than that.

For starters, the software that powers Perlmonks itself can be used. It
is freely distributed for non-commercial needs by The Everything
Development Company (http://everydevel.com/), and in fact it also powers
a Java-aimed website named javajunkies.org

It's a Perl / MySQL based CMS. I guess it can be OK to get the website
running, and later embarassed Ruby hackers can rewrite it in Ruby :-)

Eli
01469f8ff087fc5eeb2f052e9118222b?d=identicon&s=25 Alex Polite (alex789)
on 2006-05-06 16:14
(Received via mailing list)
Austin Ziegler wrote:
>
> I have no problem doing that. I use Gmail which makes it easier, but a
> good threading client helps as well.
>
I second that. Most email clients I come across aren't smart enough to
realise when a thread has been broken, but Gmail is pretty smart about
it. It will also sort your threads by the date of the most recent post
in the thread and not by the date of the first post in the thread. This
is akin to the thread sorting in a lot of forums.

So before Eli has the Rubynuns up and running reading the list over
gmail might remedy the present situation.

alex
89d967359903c639d31e4cad4569f537?d=identicon&s=25 Charlie Bowman (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 16:21
(Received via mailing list)
You know what really bothers me....DevShed doesn't have a ruby forum.  I
learned so much perl using that place.  I really liked it.  I can't
figure out why they don't have a ruby forum.

Charlie Bowman
www.recentrambles.com
34f159f89cbd1d9beac0276f5a7af552?d=identicon&s=25 John Gabriele (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 17:15
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/6/06, Eli Bendersky <eliben@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> For starters, the software that powers Perlmonks itself can be used.
> [snip]
>  I guess it can be OK to get the website
> running, and later embarassed Ruby hackers can rewrite it in Ruby :-)
>

Well, places like perlmonks have a lot of content there besides just
archives of messages posted. There's tutorials, code snippets, etc.
And they're often cross-linked (nodes pointing to other nodes). It
would probably be *much* less work to start with something fairly
simple, in Ruby (RoR-based I'm guessing), then improve it over time,
rather than go with the perlmonks code and migrate all the accreted
content over to something Ruby-based.

I took a peek at RubyForge, searching for "cms", but there's a lot of
"coming soon!" projects in those results. Searching for "forum" gives
similar results.

Considering that the site would be based on a forum, but probably
heavily modified, it's probably going to require something custom.
Fc761ccaf6c0d7d977e2959f9bfebd06?d=identicon&s=25 Eli Bendersky (eliben)
on 2006-05-06 17:23
> Well, places like perlmonks have a lot of content there besides just
> archives of messages posted. There's tutorials, code snippets, etc.
> And they're often cross-linked (nodes pointing to other nodes). It
> would probably be *much* less work to start with something fairly
> simple, in Ruby (RoR-based I'm guessing), then improve it over time,
> rather than go with the perlmonks code and migrate all the accreted
> content over to something Ruby-based.

By borrowing from Perlmonks I didn't mean the content, but the code.
Perlmonks is a customized Everything engine (a Perl CMS). It is quite
possible, I am sure, to have a 'skeleton' version of Perlmonks with no
content at all but all the features.

>
> I took a peek at RubyForge, searching for "cms", but there's a lot of
> "coming soon!" projects in those results. Searching for "forum" gives
> similar results.
>
> Considering that the site would be based on a forum, but probably
> heavily modified, it's probably going to require something custom.

Just a forum is not enough, I think, because part of what makes
Perlmonks great is exactly what you mentioned above - it has articles,
tutorials and code snippets on it, all conveniently cross-linked with
the 'discussions' (forum posts). Another is the user rating system,
allowing to rate posts and replies, and thus ensuring trust between
users and providing a real feeling of a community.

Just slapping a forum together is a 10-minutes job, using phpBB. It
won't be enough, though.
34f159f89cbd1d9beac0276f5a7af552?d=identicon&s=25 John Gabriele (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 17:40
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/6/06, Eli Bendersky <eliben@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> By borrowing from Perlmonks I didn't mean the content, but the code.
> Perlmonks is a customized Everything engine (a Perl CMS). It is quite
> possible, I am sure, to have a 'skeleton' version of Perlmonks with no
> content at all but all the features.
>

Right. But what I was getting at was, once you've got a body of
contributed material forming (including user accounts, messages
posted, tutorials, howto's, etc.), if you then want to switch over to
some custom Ruby solution, you've got to migrate all that content over
to the new system (which doesn't sound fun *or* easy. :) ). That's why
I was suggesting just starting with some custom RoR webapp right from
the start.
37ee5fa90f5eaeef62553629382497f7?d=identicon&s=25 Leslie Viljoen (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 19:50
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/6/06, Polite <m4@polite.se> wrote:
>
> So before Eli has the Rubynuns up and running reading the list over
> gmail might remedy the present situation.

I "third" that. Gmail is great - just create a filter which keeps all
your Ruby-talk stuff out of the inbox and nothing could be easier. In
fact, I don't know of a better web application than Gmail.
34f159f89cbd1d9beac0276f5a7af552?d=identicon&s=25 John Gabriele (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 20:33
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/6/06, Leslie Viljoen <leslieviljoen@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/6/06, Polite <m4@polite.se> wrote:
> >
> > So before Eli has the Rubynuns up and running reading the list over
> > gmail might remedy the present situation.
>
> I "third" that. Gmail is great - just create a filter which keeps all
> your Ruby-talk stuff out of the inbox and nothing could be easier. In
> fact, I don't know of a better web application than Gmail.
>

Gmail is great for what it is, but I think the OP was looking for
something more durable -- a site like perlmonks where you've got got
not only the messages archived, but also tutuorial content and other
stuff (like user-owned pages filled with useful links, for example).
Besides that, messages there are rated and ranked, and everything is
easily searchable.

Perlmonks really is a very useful site that's much more than a mailing
list. I agree that it'd be great for the Ruby community to have a site
like it.

Dunno if I'd call it RubyNuns though. ;)
51a34236538906ab994cf9f2e533d14d?d=identicon&s=25 Lou Scoras (ljscoras)
on 2006-05-07 02:01
(Received via mailing list)
> On 5/6/06, Leslie Viljoen <leslieviljoen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I "third" that. Gmail is great - just create a filter which keeps all
> > your Ruby-talk stuff out of the inbox and nothing could be easier. In
> > fact, I don't know of a better web application than Gmail.
> >

I think he was lamenting the fact that there is no way to get a
threaded view of the conversation in gmail, and I must agree with him
on this one.  Gmail is nice for personal mail, but it does get
somewhat unwieldy for larger threads.

On 5/6/06, John Gabriele <jmg3000@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gmail is great for what it is, but I think the OP was looking for
> something more durable -- a site like perlmonks where you've got got
> not only the messages archived, but also tutuorial content and other
> stuff (like user-owned pages filled with useful links, for example).
> Besides that, messages there are rated and ranked, and everything is
> easily searchable.
>
> Perlmonks really is a very useful site that's much more than a mailing
> list. I agree that it'd be great for the Ruby community to have a site
> like it.

Yeah, you definitely might want to consider it as a total package.  It
would be awesome to have a comprehensive site for ruby with similar
material.  I don't think anybody is advocating replacing ruby-talk,
this would just be an extra resource.

> Dunno if I'd call it RubyNuns though. ;)

I kinda like it =)



I don't know about reusing the Everything Engine though.  I haven't
read through the code, but Chromatic (editor of perl.com), is doing a
column[1] on refactoring the engine.  He describes as follows:

    "The Everything Engine is an aging software project that powers Perl
Monks,
    Everything 2, and a few other websites. It suffers from poor design
and
    maintainiability [sic]."

You might be better off just writing something in ruby from scratch.


[1]
http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2006/04/refa...
37ee5fa90f5eaeef62553629382497f7?d=identicon&s=25 Leslie Viljoen (Guest)
on 2006-05-07 18:39
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/7/06, Louis J Scoras <louis.j.scoras@gmail.com> wrote:
> somewhat unwieldy for larger threads.
Don't know what you mean, Gmail put the whole Sharp Knives and Glue
thread together quite capably - 99 messages or so, showing only the
last few responses I hadn't seen by default, or expanding when asked.

> > like it.
>
> Yeah, you definitely might want to consider it as a total package.  It
> would be awesome to have a comprehensive site for ruby with similar
> material.  I don't think anybody is advocating replacing ruby-talk,
> this would just be an extra resource.

I don't think there's a lack of this stuff on the web, it's just not
all in the same place.
Maybe ruby-lang.org needs to be expanded, or maybe it just needs more
links? Rubygarden is great. It could do with links to the RAA and
Rubyforge though...
51a34236538906ab994cf9f2e533d14d?d=identicon&s=25 Lou Scoras (ljscoras)
on 2006-05-07 19:59
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/7/06, Leslie Viljoen <leslieviljoen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Don't know what you mean, Gmail put the whole Sharp Knives and Glue
> thread together quite capably - 99 messages or so, showing only the
> last few responses I hadn't seen by default, or expanding when asked.

No, don't get me wrong.  I think gmail is great for what it is, and as
you said it does a great job keeping the tread in tact.  The problem
is that it displays it as a flat, linear conversation.

In a threaded view you can find replies to messages much easier
regardless of where they occur chronologically.
31ab75f7ddda241830659630746cdd3a?d=identicon&s=25 Austin Ziegler (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 18:16
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/6/06, John Gabriele <jmg3000@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perlmonks really is a very useful site that's much more than a mailing
> list. I agree that it'd be great for the Ruby community to have a site
> like it.
>
> Dunno if I'd call it RubyNuns though. ;)

I see no value in this.

Literally, none.

I *would* like to see RubyGarden pick up a bit more, but the
principals involved have been very busy, partially with fixing the
RubyGarden Wiki.

-austin
31ab75f7ddda241830659630746cdd3a?d=identicon&s=25 Austin Ziegler (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 18:17
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/6/06, Louis J Scoras <louis.j.scoras@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think he was lamenting the fact that there is no way to get a
> threaded view of the conversation in gmail, and I must agree with him
> on this one.  Gmail is nice for personal mail, but it does get
> somewhat unwieldy for larger threads.

Odd. I've never had a problem with gmail, and I've used a *lot* of
different mail and news clients over the years. gmail is probably the
best I've used.

-austin
34f159f89cbd1d9beac0276f5a7af552?d=identicon&s=25 John Gabriele (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 18:55
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/15/06, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I *would* like to see RubyGarden pick up a bit more, but the
> principals involved have been very busy, partially with fixing the
> RubyGarden Wiki.

No one said RubyGarden couldn't be that site, but AFAICT there's no
forum at RubyGarden.

Really, it's all about folks coming forward and putting in the work to
either create a "RubyMonks" or else, as you seem to be suggesting,
adding a forum to RubyGarden with some PerlMonks-like functionality.

BTW, I've noticed that the Ruby wiki there has been really hammered
with spam lately.
31ab75f7ddda241830659630746cdd3a?d=identicon&s=25 Austin Ziegler (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 19:23
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/15/06, John Gabriele <jmg3000@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I *would* like to see RubyGarden pick up a bit more, but the
>> principals involved have been very busy, partially with fixing the
>> RubyGarden Wiki.
> No one said RubyGarden couldn't be that site, but AFAICT there's no
> forum at RubyGarden.

This is a good thing. Forums are the lowest denominator of quality,
IMO&E.

> Really, it's all about folks coming forward and putting in the work to
> either create a "RubyMonks" or else, as you seem to be suggesting,
> adding a forum to RubyGarden with some PerlMonks-like functionality.

No, I'm not suggesting any such thing. I don't see any reason for a
forum.

Let me be a little more clear: I will almost certainly not participate
in a web-based forum that adds little to no value to the Ruby community,
as ruby-forum has definitely demonstrated with its mirror. (I applaud
the effort behind ruby-forum and think that the mailing-list link is
interesting, but ultimately useless because of the high number of
nonsensical and lazy posts that come from it.)

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but I suspect that a *lot* of
people are like me on this: I don't have time. I barely have time to
read the Ruby blogs and keep up with ruby-talk in any case.

Without guaranteeing a high level of participation from active
high-knowledge members of the community, including the Japanese
community, a PerlMonks-alike is doomed to failure. Not that I think that
PerlMonks is even remotely worth emulating. The postings on the first
page as I look now are spectacularly uninteresting and don't offer
anything that hasn't been asked and answered elsewhere better. The UI is
crap (the /. UI might be better, but that's a close call). It offers
absolutely nothing that could not be done better with a mailing list and
a wiki.

There are, IMO, far better projects to spend your time on than Yet
Another Useless Web-Forum For A Community That Doesn't Need One. Some of
these have fortunately been proposed as Summer of Code projects, so they
may happen sooner rather than later.

> BTW, I've noticed that the Ruby wiki there has been really hammered
> with spam lately.

And this is being fixed (see above). There's a test wiki on RubyGarden's
site at port 3000 that's worth looking at.

-austin
34f159f89cbd1d9beac0276f5a7af552?d=identicon&s=25 John Gabriele (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 21:37
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/15/06, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but I suspect that a *lot* of
> people are like me on this: I don't have time. I barely have time to
> read the Ruby blogs and keep up with ruby-talk in any case.

Me too.

> Without guaranteeing a high level of participation from active
> high-knowledge members of the community, including the Japanese
> community, a PerlMonks-alike is doomed to failure. Not that I think that
> PerlMonks is even remotely worth emulating. The postings on the first
> page as I look now are spectacularly uninteresting and don't offer
> anything that hasn't been asked and answered elsewhere better.
> [snip]

Austin -- I've used PerlMonks in the past, and it's actually more than
a forum. It's got a ranking system (both posters and posts are ranked)
that turns out to make the site very useful. There's an interesting
dynamic going on over there -- when someone posts a very basic
question, they don't usually get a normal "here's how you do it"
answer. Instead, they often get a, "here's where you can look in the
docs for your answer" type of answer.

I think that, when you have a ranking system like they have (i.e. if
their posts are up-voted, they get more xp), folks tend to want to
live up to their on-site standing. You know what I mean? It's like,
they build (visible, via their xp points) a rep (and "title") over
time. Folks start looking at their home node (which only the user can
edit -- unlike a wiki) as a useful reference to other good nodes.

Anyhow, I agree with you that another Ruby forum is not needed. But PM
is much more than a forum -- it's got extra magic sprinkled on top. ;)
31ab75f7ddda241830659630746cdd3a?d=identicon&s=25 Austin Ziegler (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 22:08
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/15/06, John Gabriele <jmg3000@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/15/06, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but I suspect that a *lot* of
>> people are like me on this: I don't have time. I barely have time to
>> read the Ruby blogs and keep up with ruby-talk in any case.
> Me too.

> dynamic going on over there -- when someone posts a very basic
> question, they don't usually get a normal "here's how you do it"
> answer. Instead, they often get a, "here's where you can look in the
> docs for your answer" type of answer.

Great. Just what we need. Karma whores. Colour me even *less* interested
now.

> I think that, when you have a ranking system like they have (i.e. if
> their posts are up-voted, they get more xp), folks tend to want to
> live up to their on-site standing. You know what I mean? It's like,
> they build (visible, via their xp points) a rep (and "title") over
> time. Folks start looking at their home node (which only the user can
> edit -- unlike a wiki) as a useful reference to other good nodes.

That interest level meter? It just dropped again (yeah, just over the
course of one paragraph). I can't think of anything that is less useful
than karma whores. Okay, maybe trolls, but I've got no interest or time
in ranking or being ranked by others. People know my work and make their
own judgements.

> Anyhow, I agree with you that another Ruby forum is not needed. But PM
> is much more than a forum -- it's got extra magic sprinkled on top. ;)

It sounds much less than a forum. It sounds like high school dodgeball
with geekitude on top.

Colour me opposed, not just not interested.

-austin
A777f1a2049d78a12ead38efb8f75f97?d=identicon&s=25 Tanner Burson (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 22:11
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/15/06, John Gabriele <jmg3000@gmail.com> wrote:
> > high-knowledge members of the community, including the Japanese
> question, they don't usually get a normal "here's how you do it"
> answer. Instead, they often get a, "here's where you can look in the
> docs for your answer" type of answer.
>
> I think that, when you have a ranking system like they have (i.e. if
> their posts are up-voted, they get more xp), folks tend to want to
> live up to their on-site standing. You know what I mean? It's like,
> they build (visible, via their xp points) a rep (and "title") over
> time. Folks start looking at their home node (which only the user can
> edit -- unlike a wiki) as a useful reference to other good nodes.


So then you can ignore answers from those without good XP?  Spend a
week, or
two, tops on the mailing list and you'll figure out quickly who the
"gurus"
are.  And then there are the random bits of brilliance by someone you've
never heard of before.  No need for special titles, or "points", just
people
asking and answering questions because they feel they have something to
share, or learn.  The last thing I'd want to see is a situation that
lends
itself to fragmenting this awesome community.

Anyhow, I agree with you that another Ruby forum is not needed. But PM
34f159f89cbd1d9beac0276f5a7af552?d=identicon&s=25 John Gabriele (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 23:20
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/15/06, Tanner Burson <tanner.burson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> So then you can ignore answers from those without good XP?

I guess so. Though I don't think many folks do that. My impression was
that it was a fun thing that might've had something to do with the
high quality of posts there.

Of course, the posts to this ML are very high quality as well.

>  Spend a week, or
> two, tops on the mailing list and you'll figure out quickly who the "gurus"
> are.  And then there are the random bits of brilliance by someone you've
> never heard of before.  No need for special titles, or "points", just people
> asking and answering questions because they feel they have something to
> share, or learn.

Right.

One neat bonus you get from a place like PM is that you can take a
peek over at some given user's (guru or not) home node, and see what
they have there. Maybe links to other very useful nodes (including
tutorials they've written), or external links to projects. This is
like a user's own wiki page, except the wiki pages are editable by
everyone (personally, I wish the wiki required a username/password).

That "random bit of brilliance" you mention could be easily preserved
on a "RubyMonks"-type site, linked to from
someone_youve_never_heard_of_before's home node perhaps (like with a
wiki). Or, if it's code, could end up in a "snippets" section.

> The last thing I'd want to see is a situation that lends
> itself to fragmenting this awesome community.

Same here. OTOH, there's so much good content that flows by via this
list. It would be nice if more of it could make it into the FAQ and
the wiki.

I'm not sure, but I think PM may have made a sort of split between the
comp.lang.perl folks and the PM folks. Though, of course, there's a
lot of overlap between the two.

I agree with Austin that the UI at PM feels clumsy (to me anyway).

The facts seem to be:

- PM can act like a FAQ and save folks a lot of typing (i.e. repeating
themselves).

- There's already a Ruby faq, but it could use some more content.
Editing it seems to require emailing its maintainer, which might be a
pain compared to simply logging in somewhere and writing some
markdown/textile/rdoc in a text field and hitting "submit".

- PM can act like a password-protected wiki and save folks from having
to keep a wiki de-spammed all the time. (Though it doesn't really
replace a wiki.)

- There's already a Ruby wiki, but it takes a lot of work to keep it
spam-free. Also, it uses UseModWiki (which is Perl-based), so that
probably puts a damper on folks here hacking on it to improve the wiki
software itself.

- The PM ranking thing has a neat community-building effect, and can
also sometimes help you find stuff that others have rated highly. It
can lead to karma-whoring I suppose, though I haven't seen that at PM.

- ruby-talk is very useful and has a great community. And
most-importantly, a largely non-fragmented one.

So, after looking at those, I was wrong to suggest that maybe the Ruby
community could use a PM-like site. It looks more like we could stand
to improve the wiki and the faq.
Ce8b03e5750097942c58e12b46724312?d=identicon&s=25 Giles Bowkett (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 23:33
(Received via mailing list)
> Note though, that anyone can put up a customized phpBB. But to get
> people to use it, and to measure up to the mighty perlmonks, you'll
> very probably need something more than that.

phpBB is the work of the devil.

Opinion is a nice Rails alternative.

Seriously, if you want to do this, you should do it, but if you're
just wishing it existed and hoping the entire Ruby community will
reorganize itself for your convenience, that seems pretty unlikely.

You've already got a healthy community here, it's just you're used to
the norms of a different community. Here, you use Gmail and this list
to do the exact same thing you're used to doing on PerlMonks. That's
really the only difference.

It's like trying to find good Chicago pizza when you're in Tokyo. It
just won't happen. It's just a different culture. That's just how it
is.
31ab75f7ddda241830659630746cdd3a?d=identicon&s=25 Austin Ziegler (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 23:33
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/15/06, John Gabriele <jmg3000@gmail.com> wrote:
> - There's already a Ruby faq, but it could use some more content.
> Editing it seems to require emailing its maintainer, which might be a
> pain compared to simply logging in somewhere and writing some
> markdown/textile/rdoc in a text field and hitting "submit".

I agree with the FAQ. However:

> - PM can act like a password-protected wiki and save folks from having
> to keep a wiki de-spammed all the time. (Though it doesn't really
> replace a wiki.)
>
> - There's already a Ruby wiki, but it takes a lot of work to keep it
> spam-free. Also, it uses UseModWiki (which is Perl-based), so that
> probably puts a damper on folks here hacking on it to improve the wiki
> software itself.

This will be fixed in the next week or two. Jim Weirich has written a
new Rails-based Wiki (Ruse) that deals with this *and* is a password-
protected wiki. It will be going into production soon, but is already
accessible from http://rubygarden.org:3000/ if you want to play with it.

> - The PM ranking thing has a neat community-building effect, and can
> also sometimes help you find stuff that others have rated highly. It
> can lead to karma-whoring I suppose, though I haven't seen that at PM.

I have yet to see a site that uses ranking that doesn't end up
encouraging karma-whoring at some point. As I said, I neither have the
time nor the interest in ranking or being ranked by others. That's so
10th grade. ;)

> So, after looking at those, I was wrong to suggest that maybe the Ruby
> community could use a PM-like site. It looks more like we could stand
> to improve the wiki and the faq.

Wrong? No. I'd never say that. I think that there's always room for
improvement in what the Ruby community offers. And there are some dark,
neglected corners of the Ruby web. I think we should take the best parts
of what others do, but not imitate, either.

-austin
34f159f89cbd1d9beac0276f5a7af552?d=identicon&s=25 John Gabriele (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 23:46
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/15/06, Giles Bowkett <gilesb@gmail.com> wrote:
> [snip] Here, you use Gmail and this list
> to do the exact same thing you're used to doing on PerlMonks. That's
> really the only difference.

Actually, to be more specific, I think it may be more like:

Perlmonks == ruby-talk (via Gmail perhaps) + Ruby FAQ + Ruby wiki

On PM, you might tell someone, "take a look at [this other PM node]
for an example of what you're trying to do", whereas here, I think a
possible reply might be closer to, "take a look at <this wiki page>
(or <this faq item>) for an example of what you're trying to do".
34f159f89cbd1d9beac0276f5a7af552?d=identicon&s=25 John Gabriele (Guest)
on 2006-05-15 23:55
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/15/06, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
> protected wiki. It will be going into production soon, but is already
> accessible from http://rubygarden.org:3000/ if you want to play with it.

*BOOM*

{A shockwave just blew my hat off of my head.}

Sweet. :)

>
> > So, after looking at those, I was wrong to suggest

Doh. That should've been "I now think I was wrong to suppose".

> that maybe the Ruby
> > community could use a PM-like site. It looks more like we could stand
> > to improve the wiki and the faq.
>
> Wrong? No. I'd never say that.

Gah. Thanks.
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