Forum: Ruby on Rails Agile Web Development with Rails 1.1

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Eca15b2b601e7e577d38bd5210a753ac?d=identicon&s=25 Carl Youngblood (Guest)
on 2006-03-03 20:38
(Received via mailing list)
Dave, on another topic, might I recommend that you and DHH publish an
updated version of the Agile guide right away when 1.1 comes out?  You
could
reuse much of your material and it would do a lot of good to help make
sure
there is still a good centralized source of reference for Rails.
Without
that book, there really is not a good one-stop source of information for
people to learn how to use Rails.  It also seems like many of the
features
in 1.1 are only very sparsely documented, so it would be very invaluable
to
people.  Even though I bought the first edition in beta PDF and print, I
would still shell out more for an update.

Thanks for listening.

Carl
912436ffe7c27e25658a3f5f556a8c96?d=identicon&s=25 Adam Fields (Guest)
on 2006-03-03 20:41
(Received via mailing list)
On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 11:36:57AM -0800, Carl Youngblood wrote:
> Dave, on another topic, might I recommend that you and DHH publish an
> updated version of the Agile guide right away when 1.1 comes out?  You could
> reuse much of your material and it would do a lot of good to help make sure
> there is still a good centralized source of reference for Rails.  Without
> that book, there really is not a good one-stop source of information for
> people to learn how to use Rails.  It also seems like many of the features
> in 1.1 are only very sparsely documented, so it would be very invaluable to
> people.  Even though I bought the first edition in beta PDF and print, I
> would still shell out more for an update.

Seconded.

--
				- Adam

** Expert Technical Project and Business Management
**** System Performance Analysis and Architecture
****** [ http://www.everylastounce.com ]

[ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog
[ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience
[ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos
[ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki
[ http://del.icio.us/fields ] ............. Links
10c741d575988433e3fcd04133f3c462?d=identicon&s=25 Sebastian Friedrich (Guest)
on 2006-03-03 22:46
(Received via mailing list)
Thirded! That would be invaluable and i'd gladly pay full price again
for a good update. Even if you could just put out a mini book
covering all the changes/new features since the book (1.1, of course,
but it seems there's even stuff in 1.0 that wasn't there when the
book was finalized). Is this something we can look forward to?

sebastian
Ce8b03e5750097942c58e12b46724312?d=identicon&s=25 Giles Bowkett (Guest)
on 2006-03-03 22:58
(Received via mailing list)
Just because I feel like being Mr. Devil's Advocate, how about a book
on how Rails was written, instead? I for one would plunk down some
cash for that a lot sooner than I would for a version-upgrade to
existing documentation. I'm all for keeping the Agile book up to date,
but, you know, if you're taking requests... ;-)

--
Giles Goat Boy

http://gilesmakesmusic.blogspot.com
http://gileswritescode.blogspot.com
10c741d575988433e3fcd04133f3c462?d=identicon&s=25 Sebastian Friedrich (Guest)
on 2006-03-03 23:07
(Received via mailing list)
Ruby for Rails by David A. Black (http://www.manning.com/books/black)
is shaping up to be that book. Just started reading the few beta
chapters available, and it's really quit excellent. I think you'll
find that this may be exactly what you're looking for -- it is for
me. However, only 5 chapters so far, so lots of the stuff is only
hinted in the TOC.

sebastian
Ce8b03e5750097942c58e12b46724312?d=identicon&s=25 Giles Bowkett (Guest)
on 2006-03-03 23:28
(Received via mailing list)
My God! That's like the grand prize winner pimp hat of all time.

On 3/3/06, Sebastian Friedrich <sebastian@feldpost.com> wrote:
>
> > http://gileswritescode.blogspot.com
>
--
Giles Goat Boy

http://gilesmakesmusic.blogspot.com
http://gileswritescode.blogspot.com
5d06917e13b29bcff1c1609492c06873?d=identicon&s=25 Dave Thomas (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 04:12
(Received via mailing list)
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
59de94a56fd2c198f33d9515d1c05961?d=identicon&s=25 Tom Mornini (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 07:07
(Received via mailing list)
I'm in 100% agreement with the others, Dave.

I'd *absolutely* buy another copy to have
complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.

If the book were updated to 1.1, and the
cart example Ajaxed using RJS, I would be
deliriously happy.

--
-- Tom Mornini
0091f92762685860109bbcb02edfdf27?d=identicon&s=25 Alain Ravet (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 11:23
(Received via mailing list)
Tom Mornini wrote:

    > I'd *absolutely* buy another copy to have
    > complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.

Hoooo, wait there: two people in a row offering to pay for an update?
Am I the only one here who finds 20$+ for a pdf books is way too much?
I pay the same price as for the dead tree version, but  I do the
printing and the binding myself.
So in the end, I pay more for an ""inferior"" product.
Additionaly, the publisher never has to destroy an unsold copy, pay for
storing, transporting, printing, etc...
I don't mind people making money when they sell a good product, but
sometimes this whole "sell at value price, not cost price" mentality
goes too far for me.

I've bought my share of pdf books - 5 in a year -, but I keep thinking
20$ is rip-off.  I know, it's harsh, but that's how I feel.
The "free-update" - *1 - makes it bearable. Should it become a paying
option, I would lose faith in humanity. Well, not really, but you get my
point.

*1 - well, not so free as you have to reprint, and rebind.

Alain
29b15f133c26b6dac0e4954d61733db9?d=identicon&s=25 Larry Kelly (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 12:06
(Received via mailing list)
I purchase Dave's pdf book.  I find it convenient to be able to print
just
the pages I need.  I found it well worth the money.  An updated version
that
covers the new stuff in Rairls 1.1 would be greatly appreciated.  Even
if I
had to pay full price, it would be worth it to get some good well
written
documentation.

My 2 cents.
-Larry

On 3/4/06, Alain Ravet <arav2132@biz.tiscali.be> wrote:
> So in the end, I pay more for an ""inferior"" product.
> point.
>
> *1 - well, not so free as you have to reprint, and rebind.
>
> Alain
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>



--
Best Regards,
-Larry
"Work, work, work...there is no satisfactory alternative."
            --- E.Taft Benson
36958dd94ca666a38483df282a5214d5?d=identicon&s=25 Peter Ertl (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 12:15
(Received via mailing list)
just go and write one for $5.00 - trust me, nobody will try to stop you!
0091f92762685860109bbcb02edfdf27?d=identicon&s=25 Alain Ravet (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 12:42
(Received via mailing list)
Larry Kelly wrote:
    > I purchase Dave's pdf book.  I found it well worth the money.

If you read my message till the end, you noticed that I've bought 5
e-books in the last year, and that my point is just
    "should a pdf be cheaper than a real paper book?"
?

In a related matter, I love Apple's products very much, but I hate their
marketing practices: I bought iLife 5 in December, 2 months before they
published iLife 6, and I had to pay the full price for the new version.
It sucks, I hated it but I bought it.


    > I find it convenient to be able to print just the pages I need.

There's not discussion that for reading, annotating and browsing, paper
beats rock AND pdf.
And how do you know that you don't need a page, if not by reading it
first?

I printed my whole copy double-face, and binded it in 3 parts. I must
have annotated, highlighted, drawn in 20% of the pages.
It will take many more years till a - portable - ebook reader can offer
you this kind of experience and service.

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/games/Scissors+Paper+Stone/

Alain
6dab365a82517fb694650a57ee88e4a4?d=identicon&s=25 joey__ (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 13:48
Giles Bowkett wrote:
> Just because I feel like being Mr. Devil's Advocate, how about a book
> on how Rails was written, instead? I for one would plunk down some
> cash for that a lot sooner than I would for a version-upgrade to
> existing documentation. I'm all for keeping the Agile book up to date,
> but, you know, if you're taking requests... ;-)
>
> --
> Giles Goat Boy
>
> http://gilesmakesmusic.blogspot.com
> http://gileswritescode.blogspot.com

That would be nice!
47632046c1a5dbaf00472e2241fbee0d?d=identicon&s=25 David Smalley (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 19:12
(Received via mailing list)
On 4 Mar 2006, at 06:05, Tom Mornini wrote:

> I'm in 100% agreement with the others, Dave.
>
> I'd *absolutely* buy another copy to have
> complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.
>
> If the book were updated to 1.1, and the
> cart example Ajaxed using RJS, I would be
> deliriously happy.

Yes! I'd buy this definitely. Go on, don't make us turn the list into
a petition!


David Smalley
w: http://davidsmalley.com/blog
40db9e75b3f5899258e3bdc0c9210154?d=identicon&s=25 Conrad Taylor (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 19:18
(Received via mailing list)
Hi, I would buy the combo pack if there was a new Rails 1.1 and highly
agree with David.

Peace,

-Conrad
77961c972c437d6801714f45c3f2cc3c?d=identicon&s=25 Raphael Schmid (rapha)
on 2006-03-04 19:49
I'd buy one, too! Just to add to the `petition' :-)

Conrad Taylor wrote:
> Hi, I would buy the combo pack if there was a new Rails 1.1 and highly
> agree with David.
>
> Peace,
>
> -Conrad
2c80e1b0837eec76d38d4f7fa1c15e87?d=identicon&s=25 Michael Gorsuch (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 19:58
(Received via mailing list)
I'm in.
5b6af2b064fdbcfd117c19ac858d706a?d=identicon&s=25 John Colby (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 20:11
Michael Gorsuch wrote:
> I'm in.

And me. We're looking to use RoR as a teaching platform for first years
starting in September 06 and our library will be buying multiple copies
- we need some way of keeping up to date, which as I see it will be a
problem - having to replace virtually new books - that will get me
landed in hot water.

Unless we don't buy them and - have to lok into what the licensing is
for PDF versions.
A7db9ec803b5895ae5f916a74e2db329?d=identicon&s=25 HH (Guest)
on 2006-03-04 22:59
(Received via mailing list)
Well, you also get the book right away and don't have to wait or travel
to
the store... Plus it is searchable.

Personally, I think the price is totally reasonable.
59de94a56fd2c198f33d9515d1c05961?d=identicon&s=25 Tom Mornini (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 01:23
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 4, 2006, at 2:20 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:

> Tom Mornini wrote:
>
>    > I'd *absolutely* buy another copy to have
>    > complete coverage of 1.0 features alone.
>
> Hoooo, wait there: two people in a row offering to pay for an update?
> Am I the only one here who finds 20$+ for a pdf books is way too much?

I'm sure you're not the only one, but I'll never agree.

I'm paying for the knowledge, which saves me time.

How I get the knowledge is irrelevant.

If you could take a pill and know something inside out, would you
expect to pay less since no paper was involved?

--
-- Tom Mornini
C1e5a9e9344b6d31b9df7303e6dc378a?d=identicon&s=25 Craig White (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 01:41
(Received via mailing list)
On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 16:22 -0800, Tom Mornini wrote:
> I'm sure you're not the only one, but I'll never agree.
>
> I'm paying for the knowledge, which saves me time.
>
> How I get the knowledge is irrelevant.
>
> If you could take a pill and know something inside out, would you
> expect to pay less since no paper was involved?
----
actually - yes...

I thought it was covered before but just in case...

there's no middle layer of distribution...

printer/paper/shipping/handling/retail store markup/overstock
buybacks/etc.

With PDF, it's just a simple electronic transaction between Pragmatic &
buyer

More than that - I take some amount of issue with all of the people
offering to re-purchase the same thing if it had new features. I
understand the mentality because Microsoft, Apple, Adobe and software
vendors have long had the model of make the users repurchase time and
time again but add incredibly little extra value to justify the
repurchase. I have no qualms with people that are willing to throw money
at these software vendors because they don't want to go through the pain
of discovering that their is a real alternative in open source.

As for the PDF, the transaction terms were pretty clear, that the
purchase of a PDF was good for the lifetime of the PDF format and though
some are willing to give voice to all the others who don't agree, they
simply are not empowered to do that. It would be a public relations
nightmare to suddenly change the terms of sale and I am quite sure that
Dave isn't that stupid.

If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means should he
unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my rights as were agreed
upon at the moment of sale.

Craig
59de94a56fd2c198f33d9515d1c05961?d=identicon&s=25 Tom Mornini (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 02:23
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 4, 2006, at 4:38 PM, Craig White wrote:

> Pragmatic &
> buyer

I'll never understand people who don't understand markets.

I'll agree that commodities always move to a cost plus basis.

But people buy VALUE, and that often has little to do with cost.

The PDF is searchable, that ADDS value. The book is already
physical (for those that prefer it) and can therefore be written
in, so that adds value to people who prefer that.

To suggest that because Dave's costs are lower for PDF means the
price should be lower is just ridiculous. After all, the PDF
version CAN be printed, in addition to being searchable, whereas
the book will never be searchable.

Additionally, you view the distribution layer as something forcing
up the sales price of the book. It's just as easy to view it as an
expense to Dave, something reducing his profit alone. After all, I
doubt any publisher today sells direct for less than the retail
price of the book.

Why is this? Simple! Because the price of the book is determined by
it's value, not by it's cost. In the past, Dave was willing to pay
for distribution, because it allowed him to sell the book in high
enough quantities to make a profit on his entire enterprise. He's
still willing to do it because the most valuable thing to Dave is
his time, which he spent writing the book to begin with. Now he's
selling the books to pay for the time invested a long time ago, so
the more books he sells at any profit level is a good thing for him.

And as for the pill, if you're serious you're just not thinking
it through. I'd pay thousands of dollars if I could take the pill
and wake up knowing everything it had to say.

As our economy moves more and more into the realm of information,
everyone will eventually understand that TIME is the thing of most
value.

> More than that - I take some amount of issue with all of the people
> offering to re-purchase the same thing if it had new features. I
> understand the mentality because Microsoft, Apple, Adobe and software
> vendors have long had the model of make the users repurchase time and
> time again but add incredibly little extra value to justify the
> repurchase.

Hey, if you don't want the new features, don't buy them. I'll make that
decision for myself and don't really care if you take issue with how
I spend my money.

> As for the PDF, the transaction terms were pretty clear, that the
> purchase of a PDF was good for the lifetime of the PDF format and
> though
> some are willing to give voice to all the others who don't agree, they
> simply are not empowered to do that.

1) I don't have the PDF currently, so I haven't read the agreement.

2) I'd be shocked if it gave you rights to anything you haven't already
    received. For instance, I'm guessing you OWN your PDF for life, but
    not any new ones that Dave provides.

> It would be a public relations nightmare to suddenly change the
> terms of
> sale and I am quite sure that Dave isn't that stupid.

I'm not sure how we got here, but I'm shocked that you are suggesting
that
Dave is a little bit stupid!

> If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means should he
> unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my rights as were agreed
> upon at the moment of sale.

What are you talking about?

--
-- Tom Mornini
Eca15b2b601e7e577d38bd5210a753ac?d=identicon&s=25 Carl Youngblood (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 02:23
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/4/06, Craig White <craigwhite@azapple.com> wrote:
>
> More than that - I take some amount of issue with all of the people
> offering to re-purchase the same thing if it had new features. I understand
> the mentality because Microsoft, Apple, Adobe and software vendors have long
> had the model of make the users repurchase time and time again but add
> incredibly little extra value to justify the repurchase. I have no qualms
> with people that are willing to throw money at these software vendors
> because they don't want to go through the pain of discovering that their is
> a real alternative in open source.


Dave went through an effort that I don't want to go through myself.
Namely,
that of searching through the rails code and making sure that every
important aspect of it was covered, in one single resource.  Even if I
were
interested in doing this, it would be a huge waste of effort for every
one
of us to repeat this task and it is not very likely to happen.  There is
a
difference between buying something because you think that's the only
option
and buying something because the alternative is even more costly to you,
but
I'm not interested in judging the mental capacity or courage of buyers.
If
the new edition (whose very existence has yet to be confirmed) costs
additional money, then the answer is simple enough: if you don't think
it's
worth it, don't buy it.

As for the PDF, the transaction terms were pretty clear, that the
> purchase of a PDF was good for the lifetime of the PDF format and though
> some are willing to give voice to all the others who don't agree, they
> simply are not empowered to do that. It would be a public relations
> nightmare to suddenly change the terms of sale and I am quite sure that Dave
> isn't that stupid.
>
> If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means should he
> unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my rights as were agreed upon at
> the moment of sale.


I'm not sure what the exact terms of the sale were, but if he wanted to
charge more money for an update, I don't think he would have much
trouble.
As you said, call it Vol II, change the title to Rails 1.1, second
edition,
whatever.  I wasn't trying to get technical and assert he do it in such
a
way that breached current purchase agreements with users, so I find it
strange that you made that a point of argument.

Cheers,
Carl
C1e5a9e9344b6d31b9df7303e6dc378a?d=identicon&s=25 Craig White (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 03:08
(Received via mailing list)
On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 17:22 -0800, Tom Mornini wrote:
> >
> The PDF is searchable, that ADDS value. The book is already
> expense to Dave, something reducing his profit alone. After all, I
> the more books he sells at any profit level is a good thing for him.
>
> And as for the pill, if you're serious you're just not thinking
> it through. I'd pay thousands of dollars if I could take the pill
> and wake up knowing everything it had to say.
>
> As our economy moves more and more into the realm of information,
> everyone will eventually understand that TIME is the thing of most
> value.
----
You and I have different 'value sets' and thus we will ascribe value to
different things.

Instead of accepting that - you are assuming that I should absorb the
'cost' of what you 'value' but I don't 'value'.

I was speaking about cost - which is the amount that I pay. It may or
may not have a direct relationship to what I or you might 'value' and
that is entirely beside the point because I am talking about 'cost' not
'value'

I consider that my 'cost' should be lower because the distribution
'cost' of getting said information to me is considerably less. You are
saying that the 'value' should make some equate to my 'cost' and I don't
agree - I can live with that.

I actually read dead tree form publications at my leisure, away from my
computer, often while I am eating and don't particularly enjoy...

printing volumes on my printer when not necessary...
reading large amounts (pages and pages) on screen...
though I have purchased 'PDF's from pragmatic, I have also purchased
dead tree form of Pickaxe and AWDWR
----
> I spend my money.
>     received. For instance, I'm guessing you OWN your PDF for life, but
> > If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means should he
> > unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my rights as were agreed
> > upon at the moment of sale.
>
> What are you talking about?
----
read it yourself...

http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/starter_kit/faq...

This makes it entirely clear what the terms of sale are/were and you
probably should have researched it before you got on to this topic.

Now - does anyone else want to spout off again about re-purchasing Agile
Web Development with Rails PDF?

Craig
C1e5a9e9344b6d31b9df7303e6dc378a?d=identicon&s=25 Craig White (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 03:11
(Received via mailing list)
On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 17:22 -0800, Carl Youngblood wrote:

>         If there is a Vol II, by all means sell it, but by no means
>         should he unilaterally, nor can anyone else give away my
>         rights as were agreed upon at the moment of sale.
>
> I'm not sure what the exact terms of the sale were, but if he wanted
> to charge more money for an update, I don't think he would have much
> trouble.  As you said, call it Vol II, change the title to Rails 1.1,
> second edition, whatever.  I wasn't trying to get technical and assert
> he do it in such a way that breached current purchase agreements with
> users, so I find it strange that you made that a point of argument.
----
see my other response to Tom with link to specific information about PDF
format. It's clear enough.

Craig
5d06917e13b29bcff1c1609492c06873?d=identicon&s=25 Dave Thomas (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 03:39
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 4, 2006, at 20:07, Craig White wrote:

> Web Development with Rails PDF?
If I rewrite the Rails book, it will be a new edition of the work.
The FAQ says "If you buy a PDF from us, you'll be able to download
the latest version for free for the lifetime of the edition of the
book." That's the agreement, and we obviously will honor it.

But, and here's the thing, we'll all talking hypotheticals here. I
have no idea what's likely to happpen--I'm still thinking about it.
And, if we do go ahead with a new edition of the book, I have no idea
how we'll charge for it, how we'll deal with upgrades from the first
edition (if at all), what the price will be, etc, etc.

Ultimately, I want to do what's right here.


Regards


Dave
C1e5a9e9344b6d31b9df7303e6dc378a?d=identicon&s=25 Craig White (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 04:57
(Received via mailing list)
On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 20:37 -0600, Dave Thomas wrote:
> > Now - does anyone else want to spout off again about re-purchasing
> And, if we do go ahead with a new edition of the book, I have no idea
> how we'll charge for it, how we'll deal with upgrades from the first
> edition (if at all), what the price will be, etc, etc.
>
> Ultimately, I want to do what's right here.
----
I had faith that you would

Craig
59de94a56fd2c198f33d9515d1c05961?d=identicon&s=25 Tom Mornini (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 06:22
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 4, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Craig White wrote:

> On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 17:22 -0800, Tom Mornini wrote:
>> I'll never understand people who don't understand markets.

> You and I have different 'value sets' and thus we will ascribe
> value to
> different things.

Oh, sure, no surprise there...

> Instead of accepting that - you are assuming that I should absorb the
> 'cost' of what you 'value' but I don't 'value'.

No, I'm not assuming any such thing. If you don't want it, don't pay
for it.

> I was speaking about cost - which is the amount that I pay. It may or
> may not have a direct relationship to what I or you might 'value' and
> that is entirely beside the point because I am talking about 'cost'
> not
> 'value'

No, you're talking about price.

> I consider that my 'cost' should be lower because the distribution
> 'cost' of getting said information to me is considerably less. You are
> saying that the 'value' should make some equate to my 'cost' and I
> don't
> agree - I can live with that.

But you don't set the price (your cost), Dave does.

> pdf_update_faq.html
>
> This makes it entirely clear what the terms of sale are/were and you
> probably should have researched it before you got on to this topic.

I made it clear that I hadn't read it and...

> Now - does anyone else want to spout off again about re-purchasing
> Agile
> Web Development with Rails PDF?

Read it again. I *guarantee* you there's nothing at that link that says
that a future version about a different version of rails is going to be
free to you.

Dave *could* decide it should be, but there's nothing on that page
that says
it will be.

--
-- Tom Mornini
10c741d575988433e3fcd04133f3c462?d=identicon&s=25 Sebastian Friedrich (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 07:40
(Received via mailing list)
I don't think this warrants a big discussion. It's rather simple:
Many people here (me included) have voiced that they would love to
see an updated version of this excellent book and would gladly pay
full price for an update. Personally, i would never expect to have
some kind upgrade path when it comes to a new edition of a book, pdf
or not. As Tom pointed out, the sales price will be determined by the
publisher and you can take it or leave it -- your current edition
will remain just as valuable. But i'd rather you let me speak for
myself and not tell me i'm "spouting off" supporting some greedy
scheme. Besides, Dave hasn't even decided to write this book. Nice
way of setting the incentives...

Sebastian
9f0f89bbd9e1ecfbaab6584e429b7a2f?d=identicon&s=25 Josh Susser (jsusser)
on 2006-03-05 07:59
Dave Thomas wrote:
> If I rewrite the Rails book, it will be a new edition of the work.
> The FAQ says "If you buy a PDF from us, you'll be able to download
> the latest version for free for the lifetime of the edition of the
> book." That's the agreement, and we obviously will honor it.
>
> But, and here's the thing, we'll all talking hypotheticals here. I
> have no idea what's likely to happpen--I'm still thinking about it.
> And, if we do go ahead with a new edition of the book, I have no idea
> how we'll charge for it, how we'll deal with upgrades from the first
> edition (if at all), what the price will be, etc, etc.
>
> Ultimately, I want to do what's right here.

We know you want to do the right thing, Dave. You're known in the
community as a generous and trustworthy guy, so I don't think anyone
would doubt your motives.

It's interesting how much discussion this thread has generated. I think
that's because you are creating new rules for publishing and none of us
understand entirely how those new rules work. If I buy a paper book,
once I have the book in my hand the process is complete. You have
extended that process by doing things like offering free updates for the
life of an edition, which is a valuable enhancement to the publishing
model, and being able to get a new PDF at any time if I lose my old
copy. Likewise the beta book program blurs the way people think about
books vs software. I think it's only natural for people to start
thinking that the books you publish may be more like software in other
ways too, possibly including a reduced price for upgrading from a
previous version. It's a subject well worth discussing, and as someone
who probably has at least one more book in him, I'm more than a little
interested in the outcome.

--josh
http://blog.hasmanythrough.com
F3dc06f587d1ff4c7366b102bfda9204?d=identicon&s=25 David Mitchell (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 09:26
(Received via mailing list)
Guys,

Let's cut to the chase here:
- the Agile book was the first intro to RoR for many of us, and got us
from "newbie" to productive very rapidly
- at that point, we could more or less keep up with progress to the
extent we wanted/needed.  Rails grew up, and we did too
- a new generation of RoR newbies has now emerged, bought the Agile
book because that's what *we* all learned from, and found it lacking.
It doesn't cover a lot of the really useful features in current Rails,
and some of the examples don't work any more as written

If I was a newbie, at this point I'd be wondering what sort of
community could recommend a book as "the bible" when much of it is
outdated and now broken.

There's only three real ways forward:
- update the Agile book so that the examples actually work OK again,
and it starts to look at more current Rails tools such as switchtower,
AJAX, etc.
- find (or write!) a new RoR book covering this stuff, and start
recommending it to newbies
- become a "closed' community, with an increasing gulf between newbies
and those who are relatively expert.  Not a great recipe for ongoing
success in an open source project

Either of the first 2 are fine with me - I'll probably pick up an
AJAX-focused Rails book when one is released and I come across it, and
I'll certainly pick up Ezra's deployment book when it comes out.  If
the Agile book gets updated, that'd be great, but I don't think anyone
"owes" it to me to update it - it served its purpose very well getting
me going, and now I'm pretty much self sufficient in the things it
covers.

Where there is a problem (IMHO) is in recommending the Agile book in
its present state as a great resource to newbies.  It once was, but it
isn't any more because Rails has evolved so quickly.  If the newbie is
a self starter, happy to read through loads of old email list
messages, hunt through Google, and not expecting instant
enlightenment, then the Agile book is a pretty good resource.  If not,
then it's become out of date to the point where a newbie is just as
likely to walk away altogether as to persist.

If there is a better/more current resource than the Agile book out
there for newbies, let's start pointing it out to them.

Regards

Dave M.
47632046c1a5dbaf00472e2241fbee0d?d=identicon&s=25 David Smalley (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 10:56
(Received via mailing list)
On 5 Mar 2006, at 06:39, Sebastian Friedrich wrote:

> I don't think this warrants a big discussion. It's rather simple:
> Many people here (me included) have voiced that they would love to
> see an updated version of this excellent book and would gladly pay
> full price for an update.

I personally don't care if the cost of producing a PDF is cheaper, in
my view it just makes me happier that hopefully Dave will make more
from it with less to spend on printing and distribution. The value
here is the information, even if it was written in crayon on a toilet
roll we're still paying for the information that Dave has researched
and compiled. Anyway, as Sebastian said it certainly doesn't warrant
a big discussion, if you don't want it, don't buy it.

Dave: Any hope of persuading the publisher to produce a "site
license" for the PDF :-)

David Smalley
w: http://davidsmalley.com/blog
0091f92762685860109bbcb02edfdf27?d=identicon&s=25 Alain Ravet (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 12:11
(Received via mailing list)
Tom

    > If you could take a pill and know something inside out, would you
    > expect to pay less since no paper was involved?

- IKEA's furniture is cheaper, partly because you do some of the
assembling and transporting.
- iTunes music is cheaper, partly because they don't have to burn CD,
ship, etc..
Would you buy music from iTunes if it was the same price as a real CD
bought at Wall-Mart?
Additionally,
  - you can resell your CD on eBay.
  - you can listen to your music anywhere there's a cd player.

eBooks:
You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.
I'm not sure you're authorized to resell your pdf.

With pdf, we gain a little (early access), but the seller gains a lot
(early sell, no printing, no shipping, no return).
It's not win-win, it win-WINWINWIN.

That's how I feel.

Alain
D6ad52affc12fb2b49b0e5a215a8410a?d=identicon&s=25 Matt Torok (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 12:21
(Received via mailing list)
Stepping into this increasingly hot thread, I'd like to throw in my
two cents about AWD and Rails 1.1: I'd, personally, like to see an
addendum or mini-book or something that updates the original book
rather than a newly updated book itself. Why? I simply don't want to
have to comb over a lot of stuff I read and learned before in order to
get the updated information. This is especially important since AWD is
less of a reference and more of a guide. It's not that I don't want to
pay, charge for it and I will pay, I just don't want to plaay "Where's
Waldo" with the new info.

Heck, maybe do a best-of-both-worlds and have the "What's new" section
separate from the rest of the content, or make it easily identifiable
in some other way.

On 3/3/06, Carl Youngblood <carl@youngbloods.org> wrote:
> Thanks for listening.
> > evolves. AWDwR was greatly influenced by early feedback, and I think
>
--
-Matt Torok
8546e5131cc66da30ccd062234a75b12?d=identicon&s=25 Frederick Ros (sleeper)
on 2006-03-05 14:15
(Received via mailing list)
Alain Ravet wrote :
| With pdf, we gain a little (early access), but the seller gains a lot
| (early sell, no printing, no shipping, no return).
| It's not win-win, it win-WINWINWIN.

... and AFAIK nobody forces you to buy PDF version... I do personally
think that the early access is one of the best things that have recently
happened regarding publishing, books, and so on. I do think this is
win-win, because I can read a book before it's out, and I can help to
fix problem with the content. The publisher gets feedback and can rise
the
quality of his books.

Now there's the price issue. The publisher, the author have work to
write the book. What's wrong with the fact they do want to earn money
with this? Would the price be to high, nobody would buy the PDF ...

--
Frederick Ros aka Sleeper -- sleeper@jabber.fr

Take care to branch the right way on equality.
            - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plaugher)
7223c62b7310e164eb79c740188abbda?d=identicon&s=25 Xavier Noria (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 14:55
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 5, 2006, at 12:20, Matt Torok wrote:

> Stepping into this increasingly hot thread, I'd like to throw in my
> two cents about AWD and Rails 1.1: I'd, personally, like to see an
> addendum or mini-book or something that updates the original book
> rather than a newly updated book itself. Why? I simply don't want to
> have to comb over a lot of stuff I read and learned before in order to
> get the updated information. This is especially important since AWD is
> less of a reference and more of a guide. It's not that I don't want to
> pay, charge for it and I will pay, I just don't want to plaay "Where's
> Waldo" with the new info.

That point of view makes sense. But on the other hand, a lot of
people is coming to RoR and would prefer a book on 1.1 than read 500
pages of 1.0 with a permanent thread "TODO: check this against the
1.1 appendix"? The Agile is THE book for RoR, and I believe it has to
keep its status quo.

If I was the author I would make a second edition with a bold 1.1 in
the cover. People fluent in RoR stay in sync with a "What's new"
article just fine. You need to know what's new in RoR, the Agile is
more of a guide and, well, you could publish something like "See, in
Depot that part done with RJS would go like this", but, I don't know,
a delta like that does not have much sense to me.

The only book available nowadays about SQLite is about SQLite 2. I
bought it because it is the only one, and because the changes in
SQLite 3 are public and I could read them before I read the book, so
I kind of knew when I was reading something outdated. Nonetheless, I
will definitely buy the one is about to be published in weeks for
SQLite 3.

-- fxn
912436ffe7c27e25658a3f5f556a8c96?d=identicon&s=25 Adam Fields (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 18:09
(Received via mailing list)
On Sun, Mar 05, 2006 at 12:11:34PM +0100, Alain Ravet wrote:
[...]
> With pdf, we gain a little (early access), but the seller gains a lot
> (early sell, no printing, no shipping, no return).
> It's not win-win, it win-WINWINWIN.
>
> That's how I feel.

The margins on traditional book selling are very slim to begin with.

Suppose it's a PDF and it costs $20 (which, incidentally, is 30%
cheaper than the print version). Now they sell 10,000 copies in a
year. Writing a book isn't easy, and it requires a lot of
people. Divide that 200-grand by the two authors, four co-authors,
editors, layout designers, fact checkers, assitants, and whatever
incidental costs there are to distribute it. Now give the credit card
companies their cut.

Figure the book takes a year to write, and it's obsolete by next
year. That's not a living wage in most cities.

--
				- Adam

** Expert Technical Project and Business Management
**** System Performance Analysis and Architecture
****** [ http://www.everylastounce.com ]

[ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog
[ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience
[ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos
[ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki
[ http://del.icio.us/fields ] ............. Links
0091f92762685860109bbcb02edfdf27?d=identicon&s=25 Alain Ravet (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 18:37
(Received via mailing list)
Adam
    > Suppose it's a PDF and it costs $20 (which, incidentally, is 30%
    > cheaper than the print version).

AWDR :

   pdf     = 22.50$ on PP
   paper = 22$ on Amazon


Alain
5d06917e13b29bcff1c1609492c06873?d=identicon&s=25 Dave Thomas (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 18:46
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 5, 2006, at 2:23 AM, David Mitchell wrote:

> Where there is a problem (IMHO) is in recommending the Agile book in
> its present state as a great resource to newbies.  It once was, but it
> isn't any more because Rails has evolved so quickly.  If the newbie is
> a self starter, happy to read through loads of old email list
> messages, hunt through Google, and not expecting instant
> enlightenment, then the Agile book is a pretty good resource.  If not,
> then it's become out of date to the point where a newbie is just as
> likely to walk away altogether as to persist.


While I agree it is definitely worth updating the book to bring it up
to 1.1, I'm not sure I agree that it's _that_ out of date. The
testing chapter got broken when the core team changed the defaults,
but I think everything else works fine.

I agree 100% that it needs the update to 1.1 features--migrations,
ST, the new joins, etc, etc-- and I'll be doing that if I can find a
way for it to make sense (and not piss everyone off :). But I'm not
sure I agree the situation is a grim as you paint it.


Dave
5d06917e13b29bcff1c1609492c06873?d=identicon&s=25 Dave Thomas (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 18:49
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 5, 2006, at 3:54 AM, David Smalley wrote:

> Dave: Any hope of persuading the publisher to produce a "site
> license" for the PDF :-)


EMail sales@pragprog.com--we do them all the time :)
5d06917e13b29bcff1c1609492c06873?d=identicon&s=25 Dave Thomas (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 18:55
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 5, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:

> You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.

For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I'm surprised
to hear folks talking about doing that). It's normally cheaper to buy
the bound book than buy a PDF and print it.

But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested
in a more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and
white, no hyperlinks, etc)?


> With pdf, we gain a little (early access), but the seller gains a
> lot (early sell, no printing, no shipping, no return).
> It's not win-win, it win-WINWINWIN.

I think you're discounting the real cost of creating a book. But,
clearly, if you feel the PDFs don't give you value, I'd recommend not
buying them.



Dave
Fb7947fdf96a2811ea79d7aef3cbf260?d=identicon&s=25 unknown (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 19:08
(Received via mailing list)
The point of the ebook is get the developer into the Ruby on Rails
world.
At some point you are going to have to jump into the source and continue
to
learn how to use this wonderful framework.  If you are looking for
someone
to show you step by step how to write your rails app then you are
looking
for a unicorn.  However, if you are looking to get a good head start at
learning this framework, then buy the book!  Catch up on the new
features at
the www.rubyonrails.com and this mailing list.  I guess my points are 1.
The book gets you moving in a direction.  2.  You will have to dig and
learn
things on your own to keep momentum going...

Thanks for the book Dave, you helped me to enjoy programming again.

--Ryan Ripley


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Thomas" <dave@pragprog.com>
To: <rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Rails] Re: Re: Agile Web Development with Rails 1.1
2b891e820c238ded365d035771603f21?d=identicon&s=25 Bill Walton (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 19:11
(Received via mailing list)
Dave Thomas wrote:
>
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
>
> > You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.
>
> For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I'm surprised
> to hear folks talking about doing that). It's normally cheaper to buy
> the bound book than buy a PDF and print it.

[BW]  But if the printed version isn't out yet...

[BW]  This thread has gotten me wondering if it might not be worth
reconsidering the old notion of keeping documentation in 3-ring binders.
It
handled document updates pretty easily; "replace pages x-y with these."
Also made it pretty easy, for anyone who was interested, to see exactly
what
was being changed.  Just a thought.

Bill
912436ffe7c27e25658a3f5f556a8c96?d=identicon&s=25 Adam Fields (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 19:44
(Received via mailing list)
On Sun, Mar 05, 2006 at 11:52:27AM -0600, Dave Thomas wrote:
[...]
> For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I'm surprised
> to hear folks talking about doing that). It's normally cheaper to buy
> the bound book than buy a PDF and print it.

While I don't often print the whole thing of the pdfs I buy, it is
very useful to print out specific reference pages, if I'm often going
back to a specific page, or want to mark something up with notes.

> But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested
> in a more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and
> white, no hyperlinks, etc)?

Yes. (Color's fine though, but it should degrade gracefully for those
without color printers.) I often print 2-up and double sided, so extra
margins and borders just mean that much less space for the text.

Also - I often take pdfs and convert them to palm format for reading
on the train, so tagging for that would be helpful.

--
				- Adam

** Expert Technical Project and Business Management
**** System Performance Analysis and Architecture
****** [ http://www.adamfields.com ]

[ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog
[ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience
[ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos
[ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki
Eea7ad39737b0dbf3de38874e0a6c7d8?d=identicon&s=25 Justin Forder (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 20:12
(Received via mailing list)
Dave Thomas wrote:
>
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 3:54 AM, David Smalley wrote:
>
>> Dave: Any hope of persuading the publisher to produce a "site license"
>> for the PDF :-)
>
>
> EMail sales@pragprog.com--we do them all the time :)

Thanks for that info - it would be good if you could put it on the web
site.

   Justin
Eea7ad39737b0dbf3de38874e0a6c7d8?d=identicon&s=25 Justin Forder (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 20:30
(Received via mailing list)
Dave Thomas wrote:
>
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
>
>> You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.
>
> For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I'm surprised to
> hear folks talking about doing that). It's normally cheaper to buy the
> bound book than buy a PDF and print it.

Bear in mind that for many people printing is an uncosted service
provided by their employer.

Having hard copy is valuable if you want it side by side with your work,
e.g. when following a tutorial. And to make notes on. It's handy to be
able to print out a section of interest, say for learning while
commuting by train... and so on.

> But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested in a
> more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and white, no
> hyperlinks, etc)?

In my case, I'm happy with the existing PDF format, and definitely
wouldn't want to lose the hyperlinks.

   Justin
0091f92762685860109bbcb02edfdf27?d=identicon&s=25 Alain Ravet (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 20:45
(Received via mailing list)
Dave

    > For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I'm
surprised to
    > hear folks talking about doing that).

I'm even more surprised by people considering reading on screen a
500-page reference book (and not annotating it).


    > It's normally cheaper to buy the bound book than buy a PDF and
print it.

1/ the pdf comes months before the paper version. Some are only
available in pdf.
2/ the paper used in the dead tree version (of AWDR) is too thin: if you
write/highlight on the recto, it shows on the verso.
I like writing in my books, highlighting, annotating, enriching them.

    > I think you're discounting the real cost of creating a book. But,
    > clearly, if you feel the PDFs don't give you value, I'd recommend
not
    > buying them.

Once again, I never said nor wrote that, on the contrary. Reread my
messages.
You can't stop people from seeing a parallel between pdf books and
downloaded music. iTunes albums are (much) cheaper than their boxed
plastic equivalents.

Alain
37c332966b49eeb1d54eeefd3bc5ce97?d=identicon&s=25 David Corbin (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 20:51
(Received via mailing list)
On Sunday 05 March 2006 12:52 pm, Dave Thomas wrote:
> On Mar 5, 2006, at 5:11 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> > You have to print (and bind?) your pdf yourself.
>
> For me, the PDF was never intended to be printed (and I'm surprised
> to hear folks talking about doing that). It's normally cheaper to buy
> the bound book than buy a PDF and print it.

Right, but in large (stupid) businesses, printing on the laser printer
is free
while buying a book costs money.  Well,
free-for-the-user-not-the-company.
38a8230ed3d5c685558b4f0aad3fc74b?d=identicon&s=25 Joe Van Dyk (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 20:54
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/5/06, Alain Ravet <arav2132@biz.tiscali.be> wrote:
> Adam
>     > Suppose it's a PDF and it costs $20 (which, incidentally, is 30%
>     > cheaper than the print version).
>
> AWDR :
>
>    pdf     = 22.50$ on PP
>    paper = 22$ on Amazon

And Amazon.com gives really steep discounts on books.
Ad7805c9fcc1f13efc6ed11251a6c4d2?d=identicon&s=25 Alex Young (Guest)
on 2006-03-05 23:05
(Received via mailing list)
Your argument seems to be that:

a) you value the pdf higher than the paper book, for reasons you've
enumerated:
> 1/ the pdf comes months before the paper version. Some are only
> available in pdf. 2/ the paper used in the dead tree version (of
> AWDR) is too thin: if you write/highlight on the recto, it shows on
> the verso. I like writing in my books, highlighting, annotating,
> enriching them.

b) you think the pdf product is inferior and should be cheaper than the
paper book:
> So in the end, I pay more for an ""inferior"" product. Additionaly,
> the publisher never has to destroy an unsold copy, pay for storing,
> transporting, printing, etc...

So something you value more is "inferior"...  I hope it's obvious why,
at this point, I feel compelled to say "WTF?"

I don't mean this as a personal attack, so please don't take it as one.
  You paid what you paid for the eBook, but you "keep thinking 20$ is a
rip-off".  Why, if you keep thinking they're priced too high, do you pay
that price?  If they're worth more to you than the price you pay, and
you're not forced into buying them, where's the problem?  I just don't
see the logic.
912436ffe7c27e25658a3f5f556a8c96?d=identicon&s=25 Adam Fields (Guest)
on 2006-03-06 03:58
(Received via mailing list)
On Sun, Mar 05, 2006 at 11:53:26AM -0800, Joe Van Dyk wrote:
> And Amazon.com gives really steep discounts on books.
I guess the next question is - Amazon also sells PDFs, so do they give
equally steep discounts on those?

--
				- Adam

** Expert Technical Project and Business Management
**** System Performance Analysis and Architecture
****** [ http://www.adamfields.com ]

[ http://www.aquick.org/blog ] ............ Blog
[ http://www.adamfields.com/resume.html ].. Experience
[ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fields ] ... Photos
[ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki
Ff63c03fd68754adbadd2c6314646bef?d=identicon&s=25 Bill Guindon (agorilla)
on 2006-03-06 05:25
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/4/06, Alain Ravet <arav2132@biz.tiscali.be> wrote:
> Additionaly, the publisher never has to destroy an unsold copy, pay for
>
> *1 - well, not so free as you have to reprint, and rebind.

Maybe some ruby would help?

class Buyer
  attr_accessor :name
  def initialize(name='')
    @name = name
  end
end

class Seller
  attr_accessor :name
  def initialize(name='')
    @name = name
  end
end

class Product
  attr_accessor :name, :price
  def initialize(name='', price=0)
    @name = name
    @price = price
  end
end

class Transaction
  attr_accessor :name, :seller, :product, :value
  def initialize(buyer, seller, product, value)
    @seller = seller
    @buyer = buyer
    @product = product
    case
    when value > product.price then praise()
    when value < product.price then bitch()
    else satisfied()
    end
  end

  def bitch
    puts "This product costs too much!"
  end

  def praise
    puts "This product is perfect!"
  end

  def satisfied
    puts "This product is ok."
  end
end

buyer = Buyer.new('me')
seller = Seller.new('Pragmatic Programmers')
product = Product.new('Rails Book', 20)

Transaction.new(buyer, seller, product, 15)
Transaction.new(buyer, seller, product, 20)
Transaction.new(buyer, seller, product, 25)

If that doesn't help you, spend some time here:
http://www.mises.org/

Before I go, many thanks to the Dave's for a fine product.  I await
your decision on 1.1, and will decide then whether the value of what
you offer exceeds the price you charge.

> Alain
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>


--
Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)
The best answer to most questions is "it depends".
5d06917e13b29bcff1c1609492c06873?d=identicon&s=25 Dave Thomas (Guest)
on 2006-03-06 05:50
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 5, 2006, at 11:55 AM, Bill Walton wrote:

> [BW]  This thread has gotten me wondering if it might not be worth
> reconsidering the old notion of keeping documentation in 3-ring
> binders.  It
> handled document updates pretty easily; "replace pages x-y with
> these."
> Also made it pretty easy, for anyone who was interested, to see
> exactly what
> was being changed.  Just a thought.


Funny you should say that.  We've been wanting to do this, but
fulfillment seems to be a major issue.  I have been wondering about a
"print it yourself" model, but that assumes that pages get written or
updated serially. We find that with the beta books, updates happen
all over the place.

But this is definitely a topic I want to explore.


Dave
5ce55767684e0cd1727db2b8b8975640?d=identicon&s=25 Steve Longdo (Guest)
on 2006-03-06 05:56
(Received via mailing list)
I remember reading somewhere that you have your authors use some sort of
XML
markup that you then turn into a PDF (presumably via XSL:FO).  If this
is
the case there are a variety of tools to do differencing against XML,
perhaps a simple XSL transform could be developed to highlight changes
and
strike-through deletions?

3-ring binders give me the kind of chill usually reserved for "that code
has
been backed up to micro-fiche".  *brrrrrr*

-Steve
http://www.stevelongdo.com
29b15f133c26b6dac0e4954d61733db9?d=identicon&s=25 Larry Kelly (Guest)
on 2006-03-06 06:08
(Received via mailing list)
+1

On 3/5/06, Adam Fields <rails23049809@aquick.org> wrote:
>
>
> [ http://www.aquicki.com/wiki ].............Wiki
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>



--
Best Regards,
-Larry
"Work, work, work...there is no satisfactory alternative."
            --- E.Taft Benson
5d06917e13b29bcff1c1609492c06873?d=identicon&s=25 Dave Thomas (Guest)
on 2006-03-06 06:14
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 5, 2006, at 10:55 PM, Steve Longdo wrote:

> I remember reading somewhere that you have your authors use some
> sort of XML markup that you then turn into a PDF (presumably via
> XSL:FO).  If this is the case there are a variety of tools to do
> differencing against XML, perhaps a simple XSL transform could be
> developed to highlight changes and strike-through deletions?


I've played with these, but they tend to make the pages look like
Edward Scissorhands was reading them. I'm really bad this way: I'll
tweak wording as I'm skimming through, leaving lots of small "add
this" "delete that" kind of deltas.

I've _tried_ keeping a decent Changelog in the past, but that's hard
to do when I'm in full flow.

Somewhere out there there's a decent answer, and I'm a-waiting'


Dave
77961c972c437d6801714f45c3f2cc3c?d=identicon&s=25 Raphael Schmid (rapha)
on 2006-03-06 15:55
Ryan Ripley wrote:

> The point of the ebook is get the developer into the Ruby on Rails
> world. At some point you are going to have to jump into the source
> and continue to learn how to use this wonderful framework.  If you

I'm very much hoping for this to be your opinion only...

> are looking for someone to show you step by step how to write your
> rails app then you are looking for a unicorn.  However, if you are

... because some of us might just not be as bright and intelligent
as some others, or just not have all the time in the world.

> looking to get a good head start at learning this framework, then
> buy the book!  Catch up on the new features at

Sorry. But when I shell out for a book that has "for intermediate to
expert" printed on its back, I expect to be able to use the information
contained in that book professionally. That is, to be able and build
a good and solid Rails app in this particular cause.

Fortunately, with the Agile Book I do get that feeling. Just not for
the 1.1 features, which is okay -- since the book never promised me
to teach me on them.

> the www.rubyonrails.com and this mailing list.  I guess my points are 1.
> The book gets you moving in a direction.  2.  You will have to dig and
> learn things on your own to keep momentum going...

Sorry, but that sounds too elitist for stupid little me not to feel
offended by it. Hopefully we'll not start hating each other because of
that, I just felt a real urge to discuss the matter.

> Thanks for the book Dave, you helped me to enjoy programming again.

Second that!

Best regards,
Raphael Schmid
5ce55767684e0cd1727db2b8b8975640?d=identicon&s=25 Steve Longdo (Guest)
on 2006-03-06 17:45
(Received via mailing list)
I'm loathe to mention this, on this particular mailing list, but Oracle
actually provides some interesting XML differencing tools inside of
their
(XDK) since 9iR2.  I have used these in a *shiver* Java context, but
there
is a C/C++ API.  Maybe someone out there would be willing to take on the
Ruby bindings for it?

Seems like the Johnny Depp action could be kept to a minimum if you
could do
differencing based on a time period.  Show Chapter One from
one.month.ago.to.now?  Either that or some sort of threshold '###'
number of
characters have changed on this page, showDiff().  Exclusions for code
citation blocks which should always show every change down to the single
character...  Sorry no answer, but more requirements for a solution.  So
while not a 'helpful' email, still helpful ;-)
Fb7947fdf96a2811ea79d7aef3cbf260?d=identicon&s=25 unknown (Guest)
on 2006-03-07 00:13
(Received via mailing list)
Raphael,

I was just giving an opinion.

I don't think that it is elitist to say that some self-learning and
effort
is required to become proficient with Ruby on Rails.  I also think that
if
you do not have the time to dig into the source then you probably should
not
be betting your next meal on a programming career...

If you are looking to play around with a fun framework as a side hobby,
then
all the best to you!  The agile book should help you right along with
this...

Finally, there isnt a book in the world that will make you an expert at
rails... You have to work for it.

I don't hate you, I don't even know you!

Good luck with your rails apps.

--Ryan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raphael Schmid" <raphael@schwarzschmid.de>
To: <rails@lists.rubyonrails.org>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:55 AM
Subject: [Rails] Re: Re: Re: Agile Web Development with Rails 1.1
Ab14c50a93717a5bfd342496317975c4?d=identicon&s=25 Arie Kusuma Atmaja (Guest)
on 2006-03-22 16:00
(Received via mailing list)
Dave Thomas wrote:
> But, that raises an interesting question. Would folks be interested in a
> more easily printed version of the PDF (no borders, black and white, no
> hyperlinks, etc)?

PDF's good already. If I might suggest, code should be highlighted with
TextMate [Version 1.5 (906)] Default Highlight.

--
sig "kind regards" :name => " Arie Kusuma Atmaja ", :callme => " Arie ",
:ym => " riyari3 ", :email => " ariekusumaatmaja@gmail.com ".chop!,
:dotmac => " ariekusumaatmaja ", :blog => "
http://ariekusumaatmaja.wordpress.com ".chop, :pasrubylangage => %Q#
Learn & Enjoy English Together: http://indoforums.com/englishklab #

Besoin d'apprendre beaucoup plus.. deutsch, dutch, italie..
wind lang (donc etre solomon)
29b15f133c26b6dac0e4954d61733db9?d=identicon&s=25 Larry Kelly (Guest)
on 2006-03-22 18:48
(Received via mailing list)
I wouldn't want to lose the wonderful hypelinks, just to improve
printability.
-Larry

On 3/22/06, Arie Kusuma Atmaja <ariekusumaatmaja@gmail.com> wrote:
> sig "kind regards" :name => " Arie Kusuma Atmaja ", :callme => " Arie ",
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>



--
Best Regards,
-Larry
"Work, work, work...there is no satisfactory alternative."
            --- E.Taft Benson
B893f527fda3493f1dc1e6dd8311a266?d=identicon&s=25 Brian Hutchison (Guest)
on 2006-03-22 21:14
(Received via mailing list)
First of all, I love the value of buying the PDF+Paper, especially the
beta
books that give me a head-start on what's coming up. Its absolutely
worth
the cost - there is no questioning the value in my mind. Best of both
worlds.

Secondly, I also welcome a 1.1 refresh of the PDF and book - I'll be
first
in line for that.

Thirdly, I prefer the PDFs to be in full color. I view them on the
screen
where the color is valuable, and I usually print to color laser printers
at
work, so even when printing out the color keeps the code much more
readable.

 - Brian
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