Forum: Ruby Snakes and Rubies?

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Bc6d88907ce09158581fbb9b469a35a3?d=identicon&s=25 james_b (Guest)
on 2005-11-18 00:52
(Received via mailing list)
This may be of interest, especially if you live in or near the Windy
City.

http://snakesandrubies.com/event

quote:
On December 3rd, Ruby and Python developers will gather at DePaul
University in Chicago to hear two of the leaders in the Web 2.0 movement
debate the merits of each other?s frameworks. Adrian Holovaty, the
creator of the Django framework for Python, and David Heinemeier
Hansson, the creator of Ruby on Rails framework will answer questions
about their work and the future of Web application development.

Hand picked questions submitted below will be selected by a moderator
and presented to Adrian and David at the meeting.

:etouq


James

(First I've heard that not only is there a "Web 2.0 movement", but that
it has actual leaders. TFF.)


--

http://www.ruby-doc.org       - Ruby Help & Documentation
http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - Ruby Code & Style: Writers wanted
http://www.rubystuff.com      - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
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F3b7b8756d0c7f71cc7460cc33aefaee?d=identicon&s=25 Daniel.Berger (Guest)
on 2005-11-18 00:58
(Received via mailing list)
James Britt wrote:
> about their work and the future of Web application development.
>
> Hand picked questions submitted below will be selected by a moderator
> and presented to Adrian and David at the meeting.
>
> :etouq
>
>
> James

I think it's time to start making the "My web framework can beat up your
web
framework" t-shirts.

Dan
6ec6f77ea603dd75b3a7a7775b059e79?d=identicon&s=25 ng (Guest)
on 2005-11-18 02:34
(Received via mailing list)
> I think it's time to start making the "My web framework can beat up
 > your web framework" t-shirts.

Hopefully not. How about "the future is not Java" t-shirts. We would
like this to be a bi-partisan event. :-)

--
John
5befe95e6648daec3dd5728cd36602d0?d=identicon&s=25 bob.news (Guest)
on 2005-11-18 10:15
(Received via mailing list)
Daniel Berger wrote:
>> Holovaty, the creator of the Django framework for Python, and David
>> James
>
> I think it's time to start making the "My web framework can beat up
> your web framework" t-shirts.

<soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
*creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them.  One blink of the
eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>

    robert
2cf6d8e639314abd751f83a72e9a2ac5?d=identicon&s=25 martindemello (Guest)
on 2005-11-18 10:27
(Received via mailing list)
Robert Klemme <bob.news@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> <soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
> *creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them.  One blink of the
> eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>

Maybe the web frameworks can use the dependency injection frameworks

martin

(well, someone has to!)
2b2dca18cfa4d65197f47476fc9c9034?d=identicon&s=25 holovaty (Guest)
on 2005-11-18 15:54
(Received via mailing list)
Robert Klemme wrote:
> <soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
> *creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them.  One blink of the
> eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>

Actually, Django was extracted from Real-World Web sites two years ago
(lawrence.com, ljworld.com, et al). In its development, it's
consistently been designed to solve immediate real-world problems.

That's what makes it so good. It's intensely focused on getting things
done.

Adrian
(Django developer)
Bc6d88907ce09158581fbb9b469a35a3?d=identicon&s=25 james_b (Guest)
on 2005-11-18 16:03
(Received via mailing list)
Adrian Holovaty wrote:
> Robert Klemme wrote:
>
>><soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
>>*creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them.  One blink of the
>>eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>
>
>
> Actually, Django was extracted from Real-World Web sites two years ago
> (lawrence.com, ljworld.com, et al). In its development, it's
> consistently been designed to solve immediate real-world problems.


Same goes for Nitro, I believe.

Yes, people often create alternative tools simply as an academic
exercise, but many folks have good, clear reasons why available choices
are inadequate and need to build their own. And it's great that they are
made available, and that people can then pick  a tool best suited for
them.



James

--

http://www.ruby-doc.org       - Ruby Help & Documentation
http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - Ruby Code & Style: Writers wanted
http://www.rubystuff.com      - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com     - Playing with Better Toys
http://www.30secondrule.com   - Building Better Tools
1d6252c8fa730e6b9989db64df35103a?d=identicon&s=25 J. Merrill (j-merrill)
on 2005-11-18 17:01
james_b wrote:
> Adrian Holovaty wrote:
> Yes, people often create alternative tools simply as an academic
> exercise, but many folks have good, clear reasons why available choices
> are inadequate and need to build their own. And it's great that they are
> made available, and that people can then pick  a tool best suited for
> them.

Who's writing the hopefully-unbiased "how to choose a (Ruby | Python |
Java | .Net) web framework" document (wiki?), with a description of the
guiding principles, ease of getting started, licensing cost,
documentation quality and availability, (perceived) advantages and
disadvantages, extensibility info (without modifying source), speed of
development and deployment, speed of resulting site, etc etc?

I've seen a .Net-based system that has well over 1mb of source code,
most of which is generated automatically; the framework being used (by a
consulting firm) seems quite capable but very much non-trivial to grok
and not quick to build with etc.  I'm not sure that Rails would achieve
the "less total source than the XML config used by other frameworks"
goal, but it sure would be smaller.

Ideally, someone would come up with an allegedly-typical site design and
encourage people who like the respective frameworks to provide their
sample implementations.  The databases that sit behind might well be
different (e.g. a Rails developer might use the "table with multiple
related classes" notion but other frameworks would likely use multiple
tables for the same thing).  Of course, that could give an advantage to
some particular framework -- maybe the "sample site" from each
framework's equivalent of the "Ruby on Rails" book could be implemented
using other frameworks.  Or maybe the site I've watched get built with
that .Net framework could be built by the various open-source
frameworks...

(Would anyone pay to subscribe to an "Open Source [or not!] web
frameworks comparison" living document / site?  Something has to bring
in the $$$...)
577053972bc30f59cf29714765a8b49f?d=identicon&s=25 michael.campbell (Guest)
on 2005-11-18 17:10
(Received via mailing list)
Martin DeMello <martindemello@yahoo.com> writes:

> Robert Klemme <bob.news@gmx.net> wrote:
> >
> > <soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
> > *creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them.  One blink of the
> > eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>
>
> Maybe the web frameworks can use the dependency injection frameworks

This is happening in big ways in Java land, right now (WebWork is
using Spring, Hibernate is using Hivemind...)
1b5341b64f7ce0244366eae17f06c801?d=identicon&s=25 khaines (Guest)
on 2005-11-18 17:55
(Received via mailing list)
On Friday 18 November 2005 8:02 am, James Britt wrote:
> Same goes for Nitro, I believe.
Each of Rails, Nitro, and IOWA are definitely used in real world
applications,
and at least with Rails and IOWA, the development is driven largely by
the
practical needs.  I'm less in touch with Nitro's development process,
but was
told the other day that there are a number of production applications
and 10
or so active users.  Certainly not a large crowd, but definitely enough
to
provide a good feedback cycle to shape the framework's practical
development.

The same goes for IOWA.  I have around 60 of sites and/or applications
in
production with it myself, and have a similarly small but active group
of
users providing me with regular feedback and ideas for areas that need
focused attention and development.

Some of this work, at least for Ruby, in the past, may have been
theoretical,
and I know that at least part of the incentive behind Wee was simply to
explore other ways to do things, but now there are actual users behind
Wee,
too, each of these frameworks continues to exist and be used because
they
offer a practical solution to real world problems that people are faced
with,
and in turn those real world problems help drive their continued
development.


Kirk Haines
577053972bc30f59cf29714765a8b49f?d=identicon&s=25 michael.campbell (Guest)
on 2005-11-18 20:47
(Received via mailing list)
Michael Campbell <michael.campbell@gmail.com> writes:

> This is happening in big ways in Java land, right now (WebWork is
> using Spring, Hibernate is using Hivemind...)

Great googly moogly, I meant TAPESTRY is using Hivemind! (Apologies
for replying to self...)
7a4e995e378ef66de0ceaea5e1381ee1?d=identicon&s=25 george.moschovitis (Guest)
on 2005-11-19 14:09
(Received via mailing list)
> practical needs.  I'm less in touch with Nitro's development process, but was
> told the other day that there are a number of production applications and 10
> or so active users.  Certainly not a large crowd, but definitely enough to
> provide a good feedback cycle to shape the framework's practical development.

Many ideas for Nitro were extracted while working on a number of
ruby-powered websites over the last 3 years. One of these sites,
joy.gr is quite probably one of the biggest real world Ruby
applications:

~ 20.000.0000 page views / month
~ 4.000 new registered users / month
~ 200.000 unique visitors (IPs) / month
~ 1000-3000 concurrent online users

Running from a single, old server, using an old, unoptimized ruby
powered web engine. All this before the first version of Rails was
even released.

We have experienced many problems from our old engine, and during the
last 3 years we have had the chance to carefully study the practical
issues and work out effective solutions. The fruit of our efforts is
Nitro. Restarted from scratch about one year ago, influenced by Rails
and other projects (Wee, CherryPy, etc..) it now provides everything
you need to build professional Web applications in the most natural
way.


regards,
George.
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