Forum: Inkscape CMYK in PDF from Inkscape

44dc6e055ce5b0c4920e9f88be72a61a?d=identicon&s=25 Judah (Guest)
on 2014-05-24 16:26
(Received via mailing list)
Hi all

I have been using inkscape for a while now, my only problem has been a
lack
of native CMYK (and spot color) support for PDF's from Inkscape. I was
wondering if there is way to get this piece of software
(moonshiner.sourceforge.net) to work with Inkscape esp in the "Save as"
pdf
dialogue? I checked it with an old version of <adobe/> software I have
and
the resulting file is definitely in a CMYK color space.
8b3c344f0adba6016612e05447039f44?d=identicon&s=25 john Culleton (Guest)
on 2014-05-24 16:52
(Received via mailing list)
On Sat, 24 May 2014 14:00:58 +0000 (UTC)
Judah <judahyodh@gmail.com> wrote:

> software I have and the resulting file is
> definitely in a CMYK color space.
>
>

I agree, but CMYK is not covered in the svg
standard. My solution is to import the Inkscape
document into Scribus and then export it
using pdf X/1-a:2001 as the target format.
--
John Culleton
Wexford Press
Free list of books for self-publishers:
http://wexfordpress.net/shortlist.html
PDF e-book: "Create Book Covers with Scribus"
available at
http://www.booklocker.com/books/4055.html
79fa38e45eeb57e2f95c42d7ecc910f7?d=identicon&s=25 Gez (Guest)
on 2014-05-26 15:52
(Received via mailing list)
> on each object,export to PDF, send the file to my local printer, do a
> proof print with them, change the colour again in Scribus, export to
> PDF. I guess I will just have to continue along this way of doing
> things, until I have figured out how to what I want myself :)

Hi Judah,

You have to attach a CMYK color profile to your inkscape document in the
document properties. Once you have the profile, the CMS tab in the
fill/stroke dialog allows you to choose the colorspace for each object
and select your desired CMYK values.
If you do that and take the SVG file to Scribus, the CMYK values will be
honored.
Regarding the spot inks, as far as I can remember you can use the auto
palette for adding swatches that work "globally" in the document, but
since that's done by custom gradient definitios they don't survive the
import to Scribus as spot inks.
It's not really a problem, since the color of a spot ink is meaningless.
The color of spot inks is just a visual aid for you to pick them, but
the printer will produce a separate plate for them that has to be inked
with the right color.
So, don't worry about spots in inkscape then. Just use a regular RGB
color and when you import the SVG to Scribus, go to the colors manager
and turn that RGB swatch to a spot ink, using the name of the desired
ink so it's reflected in the PDF output. The printer will know what to
do with it.

I run a small graphic design firm, and I send files to printshops almost
daily. Personally, I don't even care about doing anything in CMYK in
Inkscape. I do everything in RGB, and let Scribus to create the
separations.
Spot-only works are the exception, of course. But since printing 3 spots
is usually as expensive as printing process, most of the jobs end up
being just process, with a few exceptions.
CMYK+Spots is not very common as one would expect, but it's not a
problem if you use the intermediate binding process I just described.
You do everything in RGB, and if something has to be printed in a
special ink, you can mark the RGB swatch as spot in Scribus and it will
take care of it.
In my experience, properly color managed RGB > CMYK conversions are
pretty reliable. Designers usually think that a special CMYK combination
is a bullet-proof method to get exact colors, but that's not true: a
certain CMYK combination is tied to a specific press setting (plate
order, screen angle, stock type and quality, etc.)

Gez.
F4ca76060d0eed67a37b4a92cf809545?d=identicon&s=25 Chris Mohler (Guest)
on 2014-05-26 20:17
(Received via mailing list)
I just did a gig where the client needed the source done in Inkscape,
but needed CMYK output for submission.

What I did, IIRC:

1. Attached a color profile to the Inkscape doc

2. Made sure all the objects had a correct color in the 'CMS' tab on
the 'Fill/Stroke' dialog.

3. Imported the SVG into Scribus (after converting text to paths).

4. Exported PDF v1.3 with 'output' set to 'Print' (instead of
'Screen'/Web').

I'm skipping a few steps here (eg, having to resize), but that's the
gist of what I did.  The colors matched when I double-checked the
final PDF in Illustrator.

I my case, I had a bunch of small (11pt) text that *had* to be 100% K
and not rich black (which is what I was getting from straight-up PDF
export from Inkscape), which is why I had to go through the
import/export step in Scribus.

HTH,
Chris

PS - I agree in principle about being able to submit RGB files, but
for certain edge cases (rich black, spot colors, pure CMY, etc), not
having CMYK export is pure pain.  And it seems like all of the
publishers/printers (in the US at least) insist on CMYK files for some
reason (which sucks, really).
79fa38e45eeb57e2f95c42d7ecc910f7?d=identicon&s=25 Gez (Guest)
on 2014-06-02 18:12
(Received via mailing list)
El dom, 01-06-2014 a las 13:53 +0000,
inkscape-user-request@lists.sourceforge.net escribi├│:
> Gez, I know inkscape doesnt really work well for a purely CMYK
> workflow,
> I knew that from the start. I must say that your statement about CMYK
> values tied to press settings are not what I, nor anyone I know in
> print and design have been doing, maybe your statement would make more
> sense(for me anyway) if you mentioned that printer ICC profiles are
> tied
> to specific press settings.

Man, saying that a printer ICC profile is tied to specific press
settings and saying that a specific set of CMYK values is tied to
specific press settings is the same.
Are you saying that they are different things and a specific set of CMYK
values will print the same in any press?
If that's what you're saying you and "anyone you know in print" are
wrong. :-p

But don't take my word, just grab two Pantone Bridge books, one for the
US market and the other for the Euro market and explain why the same
Pantone colors have different values when "converted" to CMYK.

Also check the press settings stated in those books, and you'll see that
the print setup varies.
Why do you think they do that?

Your CMYK values are meaningless if you don't know the colorspace
they're tied to. Your CMYK values won't print the exact color you want
if you take them to two different presses with different setups and
paper stocks.

Of course they are tied to the press settings, and ICC profiles are how
you communicate it to the color management engine.

Anyway, maybe you missed the point of what I tried to say (or I did a
lousy job explaining it, it's possible too :-)
The point is that you can get good results with a intermediate binding
workflow. I'm not saying that you should send RGB.
If you do everything in RGB in Inkscape and let Scribus to convert the
RGB values to the desired CMYK profile, you'll get good results.
As Chris pointed out, there are some aspects that have to be considered,
and black type is one of them.
If your print provider doesn't have the specific preflight rules for it,
black will be printed as composite black and you don't want that for
your small type.
In that case, you can replace the RGB black 100% K in Scribus (or in
inkscape with the CMS tab before taking the SVG to Scribus).

As I mentioned in the other mail, I do that all the time with excellent
results, and some of the stuff I do that way goes to top print providers
who print large runs for national distribution. Believe me I wouldn't
use this software for that if I wasn't sure about it.

Gez.
44dc6e055ce5b0c4920e9f88be72a61a?d=identicon&s=25 Judah (Guest)
on 2014-06-03 07:02
(Received via mailing list)
>
> Man, saying that a printer ICC profile is tied to specific press
> settings and saying that a specific set of CMYK values is tied to
> specific press settings is the same.
> Are you saying that they are different things and a specific set of CMYK
> values will print the same in any press?
> If that's what you're saying you and "anyone you know in print" are
> wrong. :-p
>

It's supposed to but it isn't. My point was that a CMYK colour is
determined by the values you in put, of course there are tons of
variables that determine if we actually get this colour but a CMYK break
down is just that, a breakdown of how  the inks will mix. 10%=Cyan, 15%
=Magenta, 30%=Yellow 40%=Black, you are asking the printer to mix his
inks with these values.

> But don't take my word, just grab two Pantone Bridge books, one for the
> US market and the other for the Euro market and explain why the same
> Pantone colors have different values when "converted" to CMYK.
>
No dispute on this at all, I agree.

> Also check the press settings stated in those books, and you'll see that
> the print setup varies.
> Why do you think they do that?

You cant give a printer a RGB image and say just print this to this
profile it should be fine.  Your image should be teh correct
colourspace.

>
> Your CMYK values are meaningless if you don't know the colorspace
> they're tied to.

The colourspace is CMYK, the profile will depend on the output.

> Your CMYK values won't print the exact color you want
> if you take them to two different presses with different setups and
> paper stocks.

CMYK values specify a colour, I agree that I wont get the same colour
from any printer, their setups vary. Colours will appear differntly on
different stock, but it is the the profiles that change the CMYK values
to be better suited for coated/uncoated stock and print processes. Don't
believe me Link two different profiles and see if the colour remains the
same even with 100K. The profiles change the values. The values
determine the colour.

>
> Of course they are tied to the press settings, and ICC profiles are how
> you communicate it to the color management engine.

I am saying that CMYK values determine a specific colour not ICC
profiles. ICC profiles will change the CMYK values so that you have the
colour you want based on your output.

>
> Anyway, maybe you missed the point of what I tried to say (or I did a
> lousy job explaining it, it's possible too :-)


Well I'm sure we can hash this out forever, we both have workflows that
have been working for us in a practical sense. Oneday when I visit your
country I will be sure to look you up and we can do it over a beer or
six.

> The point is that you can get good results with a intermediate binding
> workflow. I'm not saying that you should send RGB.

Yeah for graphics, but what happens when you have an image. I wanted to
know if we can save a purely CMYK file WITHOUT the extra step in
scribus. We can't because cairo doesnt fully support CMYK.
Ghostscript does, this was my question, it there a way to use
ghostscript in the output PDF from Inkscape.

> If you do everything in RGB in Inkscape and let Scribus to convert the
> RGB values to the desired CMYK profile, you'll get good results.
> As Chris pointed out, there are some aspects that have to be considered,
> and black type is one of them.
> If your print provider doesn't have the specific preflight rules for it,
> black will be printed as composite black and you don't want that for
> your small type.
> In that case, you can replace the RGB black 100% K in Scribus (or in
> inkscape with the CMS tab before taking the SVG to Scribus).

I'm not disputing this, this is the only to do it. I was asking can we
make a fully CMYK colourspace pdf from inkscape using ghostscript,
seeing as how cairo doesnt fully allow for this.

>
> As I mentioned in the other mail, I do that all the time with excellent
> results, and some of the stuff I do that way goes to top print providers
> who print large runs for national distribution. Believe me I wouldn't
> use this software for that if I wasn't sure about it.

Same here, I would have left it ages ago, I find it works best for
logo's and web graphics and it does what I need except give me a CMYK
colourspace PDF without going into Scribus or Moonshiner.

I don't really want to continue with this thread, whatever you say next
I will agree to (depends on what you say, but I will) and we can
put it to rest.

Judah
8b3c344f0adba6016612e05447039f44?d=identicon&s=25 john Culleton (Guest)
on 2014-06-03 13:47
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, 02 Jun 2014 13:57:58 +0200
Judah <judahyodh@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > printer ICC profiles are tied to specific
> > wrong. :-p
> these values.
> > books, and you'll see that the print setup
>
> their setups vary. Colours will appear
> > Of course they are tied to the press
> > tried to say (or I did a lousy job explaining
> > with a intermediate binding workflow. I'm not
> > If you do everything in RGB in Inkscape and
> > CMS tab before taking the SVG to Scribus).
> > of the stuff I do that way goes to top print
> I don't really want to continue with this
> thread, whatever you say next I will agree to
> (depends on what you say, but I will) and we
> can put it to rest.
>
> Judah

Inkscape and Gimp both need to accommodate the
CMYK color model and also provide a correct PDF
X/1-a:2001 output to be fully useful to those of
us who prepare books for printing. The Context
version of TeX has finally come around to this
latter requirement.
--
John Culleton
Wexford Press
Free list of books for self-publishers:
http://wexfordpress.net/shortlist.html
PDF e-book: "Create Book Covers with Scribus"
available at
http://www.booklocker.com/books/4055.html
1725020ed58eea0c8e31f86ba702cb69?d=identicon&s=25 Jon A. Cruz (Guest)
on 2014-06-05 18:56
(Received via mailing list)
On Sun, Jun 1, 2014, at 04:08 PM, Gez wrote:
>
> Man, saying that a printer ICC profile is tied to specific press
> settings and saying that a specific set of CMYK values is tied to
> specific press settings is the same.
> Are you saying that they are different things and a specific set of CMYK
> values will print the same in any press?

Yes, generally a designer creating something CMYK for print needs to
know *which* CMYK they are using. Some of the common names include SWOP,
GRACoL, FOGRA, and SNAP. Note that there are several of each of these,
such as "SWOP v2", FOGRA39, etc.

I had a blog post a while back about how abstract CMYK is meaningless.
http://codewideopen.blogspot.com/2010/09/cmyk-is-m...

--
  Jon A. Cruz
  jon@joncruz.org
79fa38e45eeb57e2f95c42d7ecc910f7?d=identicon&s=25 Gez (Guest)
on 2014-06-11 12:40
(Received via mailing list)
Judah:
Buddy, it helps if you read what I wrote. I never said that the PDFs
created by inkscape are ready for press.
I've always talked about taking them to Scribus to export them as PDF.
You can use an intermediate or late binding workflow that way.

Early binding is simply impossible using Inkscape, but using inkscape as
a tool in your intermediate/late binding pipeline is possible, and valid
for professional print.

I've talked against the knowledge that early-binding is the only way to
go for press. Because it is not.

If you're using an intermediate or late binding workflow, it is not a
problem that Inkscape doesn't support CMYK.

Now, if you want to twist again all that I say just because you want to
win this one, go ahead.

Gez.
44dc6e055ce5b0c4920e9f88be72a61a?d=identicon&s=25 Judah (Guest)
on 2014-06-11 13:23
(Received via mailing list)
al├┤ Gez,

> Buddy, it helps if you read what I wrote. I never said that the PDFs
> created by inkscape are ready for press.


I read your post a number of times, I guess its a case of
http://imgur.com/oDNHxcu

My original post was to see if anyone may have been using
Moonshiner/Ghostscript to create a press ready pdf from Inkscape.

> I've always talked about taking them to Scribus to export them as PDF.
> You can use an intermediate or late binding workflow that way.
>
> Early binding is simply impossible using Inkscape, but using inkscape as
> a tool in your intermediate/late binding pipeline is possible, and valid
> for professional print.
>
> I've talked against the knowledge that early-binding is the only way to
> go for press. Because it is not.
>

I get what you were saying, though it wasnt really adressing my specific
question, its cool though, your input was helpful.

> If you're using an intermediate or late binding workflow, it is not a
> problem that Inkscape doesn't support CMYK.
>

Its not so much of a problem, then an additional effort(you know
resizing,
gradients, any effects), hence the reason for my post. Many of us use
the
intermediate/late binding method you mention when using Inkscape.

> Now, if you want to twist again all that I say just because you want to
> win this one, go ahead.

I'm not here to win disagreements or differences, I'm hoping none of us
are.


Boa noite

Judah
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