Forum: Ruby on Rails PROPOSAL: The list needs to fork (desperately).

Announcement (2017-05-07): www.ruby-forum.com is now read-only since I unfortunately do not have the time to support and maintain the forum any more. Please see rubyonrails.org/community and ruby-lang.org/en/community for other Rails- und Ruby-related community platforms.
Ccfe7d097475a32dc3ff78d6fc42c852?d=identicon&s=25 List Recv (lstrecv)
on 2005-12-11 03:20
I'd like to propsoe that the RubyOnRails mailing list forks into three
lists.

PROBLEM:
* The list is getting swamped with traffic, making it hard to use and
even harder to follow.
* Many, many messages get lost, with no reply.
* Due to the overwhelming traffic, it's hard for beginners to get the
help that they need, since their messages get lost in the shuffle, and
it's hard for advanced users to work together, for the same reason.

PROPOSED SOLUTION:
Fork the list into three new lists:
* Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No
"read the docs, fool!" here.
* Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss
particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice,
optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
* Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails.
Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like.

Comments?
D444791fa932ffdb231ff35458e1d1fa?d=identicon&s=25 Joshua Harvey (joshmh)
on 2005-12-11 03:35
+1

Although a general announcements list might be a good idea, too.

lstrecv wrote:

> PROPOSED SOLUTION:
> Fork the list into three new lists:
> * Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No
> "read the docs, fool!" here.
> * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss
> particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice,
> optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
> * Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails.
> Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like.
>
> Comments?
42172acdf3c6046f84d644cb0b94642c?d=identicon&s=25 Pat Maddox (pergesu)
on 2005-12-11 03:36
(Received via mailing list)
I hardly think that this list is getting "swamped"

This has been brought up in the past, and it didn't seem like there
was much support.  How do you decide if you should post to the
beginners or users list?  Is there some kind of qualifying exam? (no,
that's not serious)

Maybe I don't have a problem following the threads because I have
gmail reloading in the background every couple minutes and check out
anything new...but this isn't exactly a high-volume list imo.  I think
nearly everyone who reads the list now would just subscribe to all
three anyway...which obviously isn't a problem, just seems unnecessary
at this point.

Pat
4bd34a2216dc8bdbf1f017f64e4d59e8?d=identicon&s=25 kyle (Guest)
on 2005-12-11 03:49
(Received via mailing list)
Rails-core, was opened up a bit to be that rails hacker list.  So now
you could be down to Rails (normal) and Rails-help.  But who would
read Rails-help?  I think that that list would get posted to without
many replies.

Kyle
Ccfe7d097475a32dc3ff78d6fc42c852?d=identicon&s=25 List Recv (lstrecv)
on 2005-12-11 04:56
kyle wrote:
>But who would read Rails-help?

Exactly the people who (shock!) are interested in helping beginners.

Surprise, surprise, there are people interested in doing this.  And the
people who aren't, well, they still won't even if the messages are at
the same list, other than posting a "check the docs first" response.

If you look at the newbie questions on the list, most of them go
unanswered.  The ones that are marked "NOOB" in the subject seem to fair
better.
4bd34a2216dc8bdbf1f017f64e4d59e8?d=identicon&s=25 kyle (Guest)
on 2005-12-11 06:11
(Received via mailing list)
I probably wouldn't read a Rails-Help list.  It would get filtered to
its own folder, likely never to be read.  As it exists now, I help
with a few questions a day, just cause the subject line catches me.
You split the list, and you lose me for that.  I assume I'm not
unique.

Thats really all I'm saying.
0091f92762685860109bbcb02edfdf27?d=identicon&s=25 arav2132 (Guest)
on 2005-12-11 11:06
(Received via mailing list)
List Recv
    > Comments?

I agree fully; the current situation is a mess, a chaos:
     รข??everything in one jar"

, but we need to think further on the categorization.


  - rails-university
  - rails-general
  - rails-advanced
  - rails-edge
  - rails-plugins
  - rails-tools
  - rails-install


Other candidates:
   - rails-advanced
   - rails-deploy
   - rails-tuning
   - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..)
   - rails-ide


Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a little
order.
RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.

Alain R.
42172acdf3c6046f84d644cb0b94642c?d=identicon&s=25 Pat Maddox (pergesu)
on 2005-12-11 11:18
(Received via mailing list)
On 12/11/05, Alain Ravet <arav2132@biz.tiscali.be> wrote:
>   - rails-general
>    - rails-tuning
>    - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..)
>    - rails-ide
>
>
> Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a little order.
> RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.

I can't tell if this post is serious or cynical.  You want the list
divided into at least seven categories?  Possibly upwards of 12?  This
seems absolutely insane to me.
Ce60c4f78a63b0695e4dafc4bd7964f7?d=identicon&s=25 vanek (Guest)
on 2005-12-11 12:07
(Received via mailing list)
Word. You're not unique. Uhm, I mean I agree totally.


Kyle Maxwell wrote:
> I probably wouldn't read a Rails-Help list.  It would get filtered to
> its own folder, likely never to be read.  As it exists now, I help
> with a few questions a day, just cause the subject line catches me.
> You split the list, and you lose me for that.  I assume I'm not
> unique.
[snip]
0091f92762685860109bbcb02edfdf27?d=identicon&s=25 arav2132 (Guest)
on 2005-12-11 12:20
(Received via mailing list)
Pat
    > I can't tell if this post is serious or cynical.  You want the
list
    > divided into at least seven categories?  Possibly upwards of 12?

4 groups are enough for me (see below)


1/ Reread my message: I wrote "we need to think further on the
categorization.
      I posted a few ideas, to start the discussion.

2/ I don't think in "lists", in think in "newsgroups", that are easy to
read and navigate in Thunderbird (f.ex)

3/  4 newsgroups would be enough for me:
   - rails-academy    -- for beginners
   - rails-general
   - rails-advanced
   - rails-install/config



I guess
   - rails-optimization
would be useful to some, but it's not a must for me.


As a service to 3rd party plugin developers, there should also be
   - rails-plugins




   > This seems absolutely insane to me.
12 newsgroups would be unsane, I agree.
FYI, Jetbrains hosts 14 lists for their product IDEA (during the EAP
phase): openAPI, plugins, CVS, documentation, etc..



Alain R.
A7db9ec803b5895ae5f916a74e2db329?d=identicon&s=25 Hunter's Lists (Guest)
on 2005-12-11 21:30
(Received via mailing list)
-1

This has been discussed before. Bad idea.
132a94ca65959bda6c74fae54bff2425?d=identicon&s=25 Ezra Zygmuntowicz (Guest)
on 2005-12-11 22:21
(Received via mailing list)
On Dec 11, 2005, at 2:01 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:

>  - rails-general
>   - rails-tuning
>   - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..)
>   - rails-ide
>
>
> Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a
> little order.
> RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.
>
> Alain R.


  	I don't think so.. This has come up a few times before and the
general consensus has been to keep the list intact as one. I have
been on this list for a year or more and I have learned a ton of what
I know about rails by reading posts that were over my head. I have
also helped out a ton of noobies that would not have gotten my help
if I had to go read a different list to help them. Since all the
rails messages are on one list, questions have a better chance of
being seen by people who can answer.

	There is a decent ruby/rails forum for relative noobies at : http://
www.sitepoint.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=227 if you are more
comfortable there. My vote is for keeping the list as one whole.

Cheers-

-Ezra Zygmuntowicz
WebMaster
Yakima Herald-Republic Newspaper
ezra@yakima-herald.com
509-577-7732
4710a8ada2adc162aaee4288d9879d8e?d=identicon&s=25 Gerard (Guest)
on 2005-12-11 23:00
(Received via mailing list)
Hi all,

This newbie absolutely agrees on keeping this list as whole! As a lot of
other
people stated already, and also for me, the power is in reading threads
of
the RoR big dudes. I would say to everybody keep (it) up.

Oh .. We maybe could start a seperate list on whether or not this list
should
be split up .. :-)

Friendly greetings from Rotterdam - the Netherlands.

Gerard.


On Sunday 11 December 2005 22:19, Ezra Zygmuntowicz tried to type
something
like:
> >
> >   - rails-advanced
> > Alain R.
> 	There is a decent ruby/rails forum for relative noobies at : http://
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

--
$biz = http://www.gp-net.nl ;
$fun = http://www.mrmental.com ;
~
~
:wq!


--
"Who cares if it doesn't do anything?  It was made with our new
Triple-Iso-Bifurcated-Krypton-Gate-MOS process ..."

My $Grtz =~ Gerard;
~
:wq!
648d60296e65a1278017c0b9f960ec3a?d=identicon&s=25 Oliver Barnes (Guest)
on 2005-12-12 04:03
(Received via mailing list)
heh well put!
I've never felt as welcomed as a noob as in this list


2005/12/11, Gerard <mailing@gp-net.nl>:
D36eff3004b39abc4b93fe8a410d8bd3?d=identicon&s=25 Ron M (Guest)
on 2005-12-14 20:55
(Received via mailing list)
List Recv wrote:
>
> * Rails-Beginners...Rails-Users...Rails-Hackers.

+0.

Agree with a fork, disagree with the categories you choose.

I'd favor

   * Rails-beta
      Discuss any pre-released stuff.  I care almost nothing
      about bugs in RCs, YARV, or other future visions; since
      I'm not using those versions and not qualified to contribute
      to helping those threads either.

   * Rails-database
      A place for all the "why doesn't YourSQL follow a standard"
      or "how do I do a like clause" or "how do I do a join"
      or "*habtm*" queries and "which mysql version do you like"
      messages.  Many of these seem to be discussions
      not about Rails but about database programming in general,
      and are often are database-vendor-specific conversations.

   * Rails-administration
      A place for all the "fastcgi vs lighthttp vs webrick
      vs Apache vs IIS vs scgi" stuff that's often set up
      only occasionally.  I care durring the brief moments
      durring the year where we talk out our network infrastructure.

And perhaps
    * Rails-advocacy
      All the "Java vs Hibernate" and "does anyone
      at MegaCorp use rails" and "the timbucktoo users group
      is meeting at 1:45pm".  These were interesting before
      we decided to use Rails; but are much less interesting now.

And a
     * Rails-general
       Group that would contain all the conversations
       about Rails itself (except the experimental
       pre-release stuff that would be in the beta group)


Yes, with a decent killfile (hundreds of lines
filtering MySQL, Apache, DB2, Windows, MacOS, HABTM, etc)
the list is pretty easy to read; but more targeted
groups would make things even easier.
C29d9db03853958c4de5ee6b06edd39a?d=identicon&s=25 Nicolas Buet (Guest)
on 2005-12-14 21:04
(Received via mailing list)
-1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don't like
categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg
belongs
to
C32bf81ac76a7cf1d59d05d95f835f3e?d=identicon&s=25 Guest (Guest)
on 2005-12-14 21:18
Nicolas Buet wrote:
> -1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don't like
> categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg

 -1: keep it as is. Ruby-forum.com has solved all my problems !
39b36b2be47228f8619d61ea7a607a25?d=identicon&s=25 Matthew Beale (Guest)
on 2005-12-14 21:22
(Received via mailing list)
-1

Maybe more liberal use of [NEWBIE] [ANN] and [OT], but I like seeing
most of the communities activity in one place.  If you think this needs
to fork, spend 15 minutes subscribed to the Linux kernel list :-p

-Matthew Beale
mixonic@synitech.com :: 607 227 0871
0e1f913bd7b6e69419fe88c82c9a15ed?d=identicon&s=25 Sean Stephens (Guest)
on 2005-12-14 21:25
(Received via mailing list)
aap@howto.com.br wrote:
> Nicolas Buet wrote:
>
>> -1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don't like
>> categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg
>>
>
>  -1: keep it as is. Ruby-forum.com has solved all my problems
ruby-forum.com may have solved your problems, but I think the interface
between ruby-forum.com and this mailing list needs some work.

For example:  If someone posts a reply in ruby-forum.com without quoting
the previous post, then it results in a post to the mailing list that
has no meaning to "pure" mailing list users.

I think apps like ruby-forum.com need checks and balances in place to
prevent "bad/missing content" from being sent back to the mailing list.

$0.02

-Sean
0091f92762685860109bbcb02edfdf27?d=identicon&s=25 Alain Ravet (Guest)
on 2005-12-14 21:40
(Received via mailing list)
Sean Stephens wrote:

    > I think apps like ruby-forum.com need checks and balances in place
to
   ...

What ruby-forum needs is - public - tags, and some appointed volunteers
to tag messages/threads appropriately:

     "install", "Linux", "performance", "hosting", "mysql", "MacOS",
"plugin", etc...

Being able to filter by those tags first, before searching the whole
message pile would make the whole digging faster and more efficient.


Alain
4bd34a2216dc8bdbf1f017f64e4d59e8?d=identicon&s=25 Kyle Maxwell (Guest)
on 2005-12-14 21:46
(Received via mailing list)
Can someone please fork the list forking discussion to a separate list?
kthx
D29144171d94eb3e92bf411735f96d55?d=identicon&s=25 Elf M. Sternberg (Guest)
on 2005-12-15 20:25
(Received via mailing list)
Pat Maddox <pergesu@gmail.com> writes:

> I hardly think that this list is getting "swamped"

        I think the problem is with the user's client.  I had a terrible
time following this group using it as a mailing list.  There *is* too
much traffic if you're trying to follow it message-by-message,
concept-by-concept.

        On the other hand, if you're used to a forum-based interface,
using the gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails NNTP interface makes reading this
as a newsgroup easy.  I use gnus, the emacs client, and *that* makes
this list look the way it should: like many conversations in dialogue,
not all of which I have to pay any attention to whatsoever.

                Elf
2dd904ec5981c31e7bb7a5743a53caf8?d=identicon&s=25 Bruce Balmer (brucebalmer)
on 2005-12-15 20:58
(Received via mailing list)
My two cents worth.

I was having trouble with keeping up with the list until I switched
threads on in my mail client (mail.app os x). After that I have found
it no trouble, just like the gentleman below.

I'd do that first before making further judgments on the list.  See
what you think.

bruce

PS. I hope I have aggravated only the unreasonable and that I have
seemed sane to the wise.
C4edcb52652d2b17fe2b38ef13bae729?d=identicon&s=25 D'Andrew "Dave" Thompson (Guest)
on 2005-12-15 21:29
(Received via mailing list)
IMHO the traffic is pretty normal flow for a mailling list. Anyone who
has had experience with other high traffic lists knows that you have
to have some method for reading them efficiently.

Why I think forking would not be good:

1. It creates yet another mailing list to subscribe to (DRY anyone?)
2. It seperates classes of users: (a) Advanced users will have less
incentive to aid noobs since they live on a different list, (b) Noobs
loose out on advanced assistance, and (c) intermediate users just get
lost all together.

The current problem (harm) seems to only be for individuals who
haven't figured out how to best traverse a mailling list. And as a
number of people have already comented this can be solved by using an
email client that threads the list emails into conversations. Also,
people can create filters as they need them.

Most of the time I end up deleting about 95% of the mailing list
emails since they don't apply to me. I have a simply filter set up to
so i can batch view and delete the RoR emails as needed.

Dave
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
D'Andrew "Dave" Thompson
http://dathompson.blogspot.com
0091f92762685860109bbcb02edfdf27?d=identicon&s=25 Alain Ravet (Guest)
on 2005-12-15 21:56
(Received via mailing list)
Elf
     > gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails NNTP interface makes reading this
    > as a newsgroup easy.


- "Reading", or skimming the news stuff is only half of the story, and
that's true, the high volume is not a problem if you use a newsgroup
client.
- "Digging" ( searching, retrieving) is the other half, and that's
where the trouble is: you are looking for a needle in a hay stack, and
you don't know for sure what the needle looks like.
Everything is mixed up: Windows installation problems vs MySql hickups
on MacOS, Newbies pure ruby questions vs Rails performance tips, etc...
The ideal solution would be tagging (my favourite request for RForum),
but it's not possible for now. Categorizing is the 2nd choice, but it's
the only one that can be implemented.

As an experiment, I will start tagging with gmail. I'm afraid it will be
time consuming, but who knows, maybe it will work for me.

Alain
970efdae7d4dd77370743065457b17fe?d=identicon&s=25 Steven Mohapi-Banks (Guest)
on 2005-12-15 22:23
(Received via mailing list)
I vote for keeping it simple. One framework, one list.

Using a threaded view in your client, as mentioned before, makes life
as simple as it needs to be at this time.
0091f92762685860109bbcb02edfdf27?d=identicon&s=25 Alain Ravet (Guest)
on 2005-12-15 22:48
(Received via mailing list)
Steven Mohapi-Banks wrote:
   >One framework, one list.

Linux/MacOS, plugins/engines/edgeRails, CMS/habtm/PDF, Ajax/Ruby/Windows
IDE, etc...
One list, indeed....

Alain
970efdae7d4dd77370743065457b17fe?d=identicon&s=25 Steven Mohapi-Banks (Guest)
on 2005-12-15 23:03
(Received via mailing list)
It's all Rails to me!

I tend to see things quite simplistically though.
8e44c65ac5b896da534ef2440121c953?d=identicon&s=25 Ezra Zygmuntowicz (Guest)
on 2005-12-15 23:34
(Received via mailing list)
On Dec 15, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Alain Ravet wrote:

> Steven Mohapi-Banks wrote:
>   >One framework, one list.
>
> Linux/MacOS, plugins/engines/edgeRails, CMS/habtm/PDF, Ajax/Ruby/
> Windows IDE, etc...
> One list, indeed....

	Yes indeed it really is one great list ;) I don't think you will get
much traction for your idea about splitting the list. I think that
having a huge range of skill sets and topics is how you will learn
about rails the fastest.

	Linux/MacOS, plugins/engines/edgeRails, CMS/habtm/PDF, Ajax/Ruby/
Windows IDE, etc... <-- These all have to do with rails. just ignore
the threads you are not interested in.


Cheers-
-Ezra Zygmuntowicz
Yakima Herald-Republic
WebMaster
http://yakimaherald.com
509-577-7732
ezra@yakima-herald.com
B45eab4f18aa1bb2a44d6e657531a642?d=identicon&s=25 Alain Ravet (aravet)
on 2005-12-16 00:45
Ezra

   >These all have to do with rails. just ignore  the threads you are
not interested in.

How do I know if I'm not interested?
If only people would always :
  - write meaningful and accurate subjects
  - start a new thread, and not hijack and existing one...


Alain
B45eab4f18aa1bb2a44d6e657531a642?d=identicon&s=25 Alain Ravet (aravet)
on 2005-12-16 00:51
Ezra
  > just ignore the threads you are not interested in.

And if I'm only interested LATER, how am I going to find/retrieve the
info, in the tens of thousands of messages, many with useless titles?
A needle in a forest of hay stacks.

I'm afraid we must accept that
  1/ the archives are useless, because of the size
  2/ FAQs are the only viable solution.

And please note that I am 100% for forking the FAQ: I want a FAQ for
installation, a FAQ for MacOS, etc..


Alain
3bb23e7770680ea44a2d79e6d10daaed?d=identicon&s=25 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2005-12-16 01:14
(Received via mailing list)
Search engines are your friend. In addition to Google, there are at
least half a dozen decent open source search engines. There are swish-e,
lucene, namazu, estraier and hyperestraier that I have available in
Gentoo Linux, and there are probably others.

Now that I think of it, isn't there a port of lucene to Ruby?

And just about every reasonable email client has a built in search
engine, if you're not interested in external tools.

I've had the best luck with Namazu for my own personal search engine. It
comes configured out of the box for indexing PDF and Word documents,
while most of the others require some configuration to do that.

Alain Ravet wrote:

>
>And please note that I am 100% for forking the FAQ: I want a FAQ for
>installation, a FAQ for MacOS, etc..
>
>
>Alain
>
>
>

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

http://linuxcapacityplanning.com
03cb7371db223067d0daab54e1f95cb2?d=identicon&s=25 Abdur-Rahman Advany (Guest)
on 2005-12-16 01:35
(Received via mailing list)
ferret
3bb23e7770680ea44a2d79e6d10daaed?d=identicon&s=25 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2005-12-16 04:27
(Received via mailing list)
Right ... ferret ... thanks!! I think I'll download it and see if it can
do what Namazu is doing.

Abdur-Rahman Advany wrote:

>
--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

http://linuxcapacityplanning.com
84962fcce3fbde5aef15001d60e242ae?d=identicon&s=25 Michael Glaesemann (Guest)
on 2005-12-16 08:57
(Received via mailing list)
On Dec 11, 2005, at 11:20 , List Recv wrote:

> like.
+1, though I think Rails-Beginners and Rails-Users would be enough.

Michael Glaesemann
grzm myrealbox com
D2ff155cd04fa175620d2f3495b11b08?d=identicon&s=25 Lorenzo Bolognini (Guest)
on 2005-12-16 15:29
(Received via mailing list)
List Recv wrote:

> PROPOSED SOLUTION:
> Fork the list into three new lists:
> * Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No
> "read the docs, fool!" here.
> * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss
> particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice,
> optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
> * Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails.
> Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like.

Whatever u do please create a mirror of the lists on google groups.

Lorenzo
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