I'd like to propsoe that the RubyOnRails mailing list forks into three lists. PROBLEM: * The list is getting swamped with traffic, making it hard to use and even harder to follow. * Many, many messages get lost, with no reply. * Due to the overwhelming traffic, it's hard for beginners to get the help that they need, since their messages get lost in the shuffle, and it's hard for advanced users to work together, for the same reason. PROPOSED SOLUTION: Fork the list into three new lists: * Rails-Beginners. For questions and answers on how to use Rails. No "read the docs, fool!" here. * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss particular topics. Example topics include application design advice, optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices. * Rails-Hackers. For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails. Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like. Comments?
on 2005-12-11 03:20
on 2005-12-11 03:35
+1 Although a general announcements list might be a good idea, too. lstrecv wrote: > PROPOSED SOLUTION: > Fork the list into three new lists: > * Rails-Beginners. For questions and answers on how to use Rails. No > "read the docs, fool!" here. > * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss > particular topics. Example topics include application design advice, > optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices. > * Rails-Hackers. For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails. > Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like. > > Comments?
on 2005-12-11 03:36
I hardly think that this list is getting "swamped" This has been brought up in the past, and it didn't seem like there was much support. How do you decide if you should post to the beginners or users list? Is there some kind of qualifying exam? (no, that's not serious) Maybe I don't have a problem following the threads because I have gmail reloading in the background every couple minutes and check out anything new...but this isn't exactly a high-volume list imo. I think nearly everyone who reads the list now would just subscribe to all three anyway...which obviously isn't a problem, just seems unnecessary at this point. Pat
on 2005-12-11 03:49
Rails-core, was opened up a bit to be that rails hacker list. So now you could be down to Rails (normal) and Rails-help. But who would read Rails-help? I think that that list would get posted to without many replies. Kyle
on 2005-12-11 04:56
kyle wrote: >But who would read Rails-help? Exactly the people who (shock!) are interested in helping beginners. Surprise, surprise, there are people interested in doing this. And the people who aren't, well, they still won't even if the messages are at the same list, other than posting a "check the docs first" response. If you look at the newbie questions on the list, most of them go unanswered. The ones that are marked "NOOB" in the subject seem to fair better.
on 2005-12-11 06:11
I probably wouldn't read a Rails-Help list. It would get filtered to its own folder, likely never to be read. As it exists now, I help with a few questions a day, just cause the subject line catches me. You split the list, and you lose me for that. I assume I'm not unique. Thats really all I'm saying.
on 2005-12-11 11:06
List Recv > Comments? I agree fully; the current situation is a mess, a chaos: â??everything in one jar" , but we need to think further on the categorization. - rails-university - rails-general - rails-advanced - rails-edge - rails-plugins - rails-tools - rails-install Other candidates: - rails-advanced - rails-deploy - rails-tuning - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..) - rails-ide Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a little order. RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed. Alain R.
on 2005-12-11 11:18
On 12/11/05, Alain Ravet <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > - rails-general > - rails-tuning > - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..) > - rails-ide > > > Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a little order. > RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed. I can't tell if this post is serious or cynical. You want the list divided into at least seven categories? Possibly upwards of 12? This seems absolutely insane to me.
on 2005-12-11 12:07
Word. You're not unique. Uhm, I mean I agree totally. Kyle Maxwell wrote: > I probably wouldn't read a Rails-Help list. It would get filtered to > its own folder, likely never to be read. As it exists now, I help > with a few questions a day, just cause the subject line catches me. > You split the list, and you lose me for that. I assume I'm not > unique. [snip]
on 2005-12-11 12:20
Pat > I can't tell if this post is serious or cynical. You want the list > divided into at least seven categories? Possibly upwards of 12? 4 groups are enough for me (see below) 1/ Reread my message: I wrote "we need to think further on the categorization. I posted a few ideas, to start the discussion. 2/ I don't think in "lists", in think in "newsgroups", that are easy to read and navigate in Thunderbird (f.ex) 3/ 4 newsgroups would be enough for me: - rails-academy -- for beginners - rails-general - rails-advanced - rails-install/config I guess - rails-optimization would be useful to some, but it's not a must for me. As a service to 3rd party plugin developers, there should also be - rails-plugins > This seems absolutely insane to me. 12 newsgroups would be unsane, I agree. FYI, Jetbrains hosts 14 lists for their product IDEA (during the EAP phase): openAPI, plugins, CVS, documentation, etc.. Alain R.
on 2005-12-11 21:30
-1 This has been discussed before. Bad idea.
on 2005-12-11 22:21
On Dec 11, 2005, at 2:01 AM, Alain Ravet wrote: > - rails-general > - rails-tuning > - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..) > - rails-ide > > > Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a > little order. > RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed. > > Alain R. I don't think so.. This has come up a few times before and the general consensus has been to keep the list intact as one. I have been on this list for a year or more and I have learned a ton of what I know about rails by reading posts that were over my head. I have also helped out a ton of noobies that would not have gotten my help if I had to go read a different list to help them. Since all the rails messages are on one list, questions have a better chance of being seen by people who can answer. There is a decent ruby/rails forum for relative noobies at : http:// www.sitepoint.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=227 if you are more comfortable there. My vote is for keeping the list as one whole. Cheers- -Ezra Zygmuntowicz WebMaster Yakima Herald-Republic Newspaper email@example.com 509-577-7732
on 2005-12-11 23:00
Hi all, This newbie absolutely agrees on keeping this list as whole! As a lot of other people stated already, and also for me, the power is in reading threads of the RoR big dudes. I would say to everybody keep (it) up. Oh .. We maybe could start a seperate list on whether or not this list should be split up .. :-) Friendly greetings from Rotterdam - the Netherlands. Gerard. On Sunday 11 December 2005 22:19, Ezra Zygmuntowicz tried to type something like: > > > > - rails-advanced > > Alain R. > There is a decent ruby/rails forum for relative noobies at : http:// > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails -- $biz = http://www.gp-net.nl ; $fun = http://www.mrmental.com ; ~ ~ :wq! -- "Who cares if it doesn't do anything? It was made with our new Triple-Iso-Bifurcated-Krypton-Gate-MOS process ..." My $Grtz =~ Gerard; ~ :wq!
on 2005-12-12 04:03
heh well put! I've never felt as welcomed as a noob as in this list 2005/12/11, Gerard <firstname.lastname@example.org>:
on 2005-12-14 20:55
List Recv wrote: > > * Rails-Beginners...Rails-Users...Rails-Hackers. +0. Agree with a fork, disagree with the categories you choose. I'd favor * Rails-beta Discuss any pre-released stuff. I care almost nothing about bugs in RCs, YARV, or other future visions; since I'm not using those versions and not qualified to contribute to helping those threads either. * Rails-database A place for all the "why doesn't YourSQL follow a standard" or "how do I do a like clause" or "how do I do a join" or "*habtm*" queries and "which mysql version do you like" messages. Many of these seem to be discussions not about Rails but about database programming in general, and are often are database-vendor-specific conversations. * Rails-administration A place for all the "fastcgi vs lighthttp vs webrick vs Apache vs IIS vs scgi" stuff that's often set up only occasionally. I care durring the brief moments durring the year where we talk out our network infrastructure. And perhaps * Rails-advocacy All the "Java vs Hibernate" and "does anyone at MegaCorp use rails" and "the timbucktoo users group is meeting at 1:45pm". These were interesting before we decided to use Rails; but are much less interesting now. And a * Rails-general Group that would contain all the conversations about Rails itself (except the experimental pre-release stuff that would be in the beta group) Yes, with a decent killfile (hundreds of lines filtering MySQL, Apache, DB2, Windows, MacOS, HABTM, etc) the list is pretty easy to read; but more targeted groups would make things even easier.
on 2005-12-14 21:04
-1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don't like categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg belongs to
on 2005-12-14 21:18
Nicolas Buet wrote: > -1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don't like > categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg -1: keep it as is. Ruby-forum.com has solved all my problems !
on 2005-12-14 21:22
-1 Maybe more liberal use of [NEWBIE] [ANN] and [OT], but I like seeing most of the communities activity in one place. If you think this needs to fork, spend 15 minutes subscribed to the Linux kernel list :-p -Matthew Beale email@example.com :: 607 227 0871
on 2005-12-14 21:25
firstname.lastname@example.org wrote: > Nicolas Buet wrote: > >> -1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don't like >> categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg >> > > -1: keep it as is. Ruby-forum.com has solved all my problems ruby-forum.com may have solved your problems, but I think the interface between ruby-forum.com and this mailing list needs some work. For example: If someone posts a reply in ruby-forum.com without quoting the previous post, then it results in a post to the mailing list that has no meaning to "pure" mailing list users. I think apps like ruby-forum.com need checks and balances in place to prevent "bad/missing content" from being sent back to the mailing list. $0.02 -Sean
on 2005-12-14 21:40
Sean Stephens wrote: > I think apps like ruby-forum.com need checks and balances in place to ... What ruby-forum needs is - public - tags, and some appointed volunteers to tag messages/threads appropriately: "install", "Linux", "performance", "hosting", "mysql", "MacOS", "plugin", etc... Being able to filter by those tags first, before searching the whole message pile would make the whole digging faster and more efficient. Alain
on 2005-12-14 21:46
Can someone please fork the list forking discussion to a separate list? kthx
on 2005-12-15 20:25
Pat Maddox <email@example.com> writes: > I hardly think that this list is getting "swamped" I think the problem is with the user's client. I had a terrible time following this group using it as a mailing list. There *is* too much traffic if you're trying to follow it message-by-message, concept-by-concept. On the other hand, if you're used to a forum-based interface, using the gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails NNTP interface makes reading this as a newsgroup easy. I use gnus, the emacs client, and *that* makes this list look the way it should: like many conversations in dialogue, not all of which I have to pay any attention to whatsoever. Elf
on 2005-12-15 20:58
My two cents worth. I was having trouble with keeping up with the list until I switched threads on in my mail client (mail.app os x). After that I have found it no trouble, just like the gentleman below. I'd do that first before making further judgments on the list. See what you think. bruce PS. I hope I have aggravated only the unreasonable and that I have seemed sane to the wise.
on 2005-12-15 21:29
IMHO the traffic is pretty normal flow for a mailling list. Anyone who has had experience with other high traffic lists knows that you have to have some method for reading them efficiently. Why I think forking would not be good: 1. It creates yet another mailing list to subscribe to (DRY anyone?) 2. It seperates classes of users: (a) Advanced users will have less incentive to aid noobs since they live on a different list, (b) Noobs loose out on advanced assistance, and (c) intermediate users just get lost all together. The current problem (harm) seems to only be for individuals who haven't figured out how to best traverse a mailling list. And as a number of people have already comented this can be solved by using an email client that threads the list emails into conversations. Also, people can create filters as they need them. Most of the time I end up deleting about 95% of the mailing list emails since they don't apply to me. I have a simply filter set up to so i can batch view and delete the RoR emails as needed. Dave -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D'Andrew "Dave" Thompson http://dathompson.blogspot.com
on 2005-12-15 21:56
Elf > gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails NNTP interface makes reading this > as a newsgroup easy. - "Reading", or skimming the news stuff is only half of the story, and that's true, the high volume is not a problem if you use a newsgroup client. - "Digging" ( searching, retrieving) is the other half, and that's where the trouble is: you are looking for a needle in a hay stack, and you don't know for sure what the needle looks like. Everything is mixed up: Windows installation problems vs MySql hickups on MacOS, Newbies pure ruby questions vs Rails performance tips, etc... The ideal solution would be tagging (my favourite request for RForum), but it's not possible for now. Categorizing is the 2nd choice, but it's the only one that can be implemented. As an experiment, I will start tagging with gmail. I'm afraid it will be time consuming, but who knows, maybe it will work for me. Alain
on 2005-12-15 22:23
I vote for keeping it simple. One framework, one list. Using a threaded view in your client, as mentioned before, makes life as simple as it needs to be at this time.
on 2005-12-15 22:48
Steven Mohapi-Banks wrote: >One framework, one list. Linux/MacOS, plugins/engines/edgeRails, CMS/habtm/PDF, Ajax/Ruby/Windows IDE, etc... One list, indeed.... Alain
on 2005-12-15 23:03
It's all Rails to me! I tend to see things quite simplistically though.
on 2005-12-15 23:34
On Dec 15, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Alain Ravet wrote: > Steven Mohapi-Banks wrote: > >One framework, one list. > > Linux/MacOS, plugins/engines/edgeRails, CMS/habtm/PDF, Ajax/Ruby/ > Windows IDE, etc... > One list, indeed.... Yes indeed it really is one great list ;) I don't think you will get much traction for your idea about splitting the list. I think that having a huge range of skill sets and topics is how you will learn about rails the fastest. Linux/MacOS, plugins/engines/edgeRails, CMS/habtm/PDF, Ajax/Ruby/ Windows IDE, etc... <-- These all have to do with rails. just ignore the threads you are not interested in. Cheers- -Ezra Zygmuntowicz Yakima Herald-Republic WebMaster http://yakimaherald.com 509-577-7732 firstname.lastname@example.org
on 2005-12-16 00:45
Ezra >These all have to do with rails. just ignore the threads you are not interested in. How do I know if I'm not interested? If only people would always : - write meaningful and accurate subjects - start a new thread, and not hijack and existing one... Alain
on 2005-12-16 00:51
Ezra > just ignore the threads you are not interested in. And if I'm only interested LATER, how am I going to find/retrieve the info, in the tens of thousands of messages, many with useless titles? A needle in a forest of hay stacks. I'm afraid we must accept that 1/ the archives are useless, because of the size 2/ FAQs are the only viable solution. And please note that I am 100% for forking the FAQ: I want a FAQ for installation, a FAQ for MacOS, etc.. Alain
on 2005-12-16 01:14
Search engines are your friend. In addition to Google, there are at least half a dozen decent open source search engines. There are swish-e, lucene, namazu, estraier and hyperestraier that I have available in Gentoo Linux, and there are probably others. Now that I think of it, isn't there a port of lucene to Ruby? And just about every reasonable email client has a built in search engine, if you're not interested in external tools. I've had the best luck with Namazu for my own personal search engine. It comes configured out of the box for indexing PDF and Word documents, while most of the others require some configuration to do that. Alain Ravet wrote: > >And please note that I am 100% for forking the FAQ: I want a FAQ for >installation, a FAQ for MacOS, etc.. > > >Alain > > > -- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky http://linuxcapacityplanning.com
on 2005-12-16 01:35
on 2005-12-16 04:27
Right ... ferret ... thanks!! I think I'll download it and see if it can do what Namazu is doing. Abdur-Rahman Advany wrote: > -- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky http://linuxcapacityplanning.com
on 2005-12-16 08:57
On Dec 11, 2005, at 11:20 , List Recv wrote: > like. +1, though I think Rails-Beginners and Rails-Users would be enough. Michael Glaesemann grzm myrealbox com
on 2005-12-16 15:29
List Recv wrote: > PROPOSED SOLUTION: > Fork the list into three new lists: > * Rails-Beginners. For questions and answers on how to use Rails. No > "read the docs, fool!" here. > * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss > particular topics. Example topics include application design advice, > optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices. > * Rails-Hackers. For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails. > Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like. Whatever u do please create a mirror of the lists on google groups. Lorenzo