I'm sure most of you have seen this already, but I hadn't seen Jimmy's "farewell Microsoft" blog post posted to the list, so here it is if anyone hasn't read it http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/08/start-spre... I'd like to thank Jimmy for his work thus far on IronRuby, and certainly wish you the best of luck at your new job and living in NYC. From that point of view, it's happy days. The news about Microsoft's internal handling of IronRuby however makes me rather sad, and frankly a bit worried about the future of IronRuby in general. If there's now only 2 part-time developers working on IR inside Microsoft, and they've been told not to develop any new features, then where does that leave us? While IronRuby is open source (yay), It unfortunately hasn't seem to have become quite big enough (unlike JRuby) to be self sustaining. I personally also perceive somewhat of a problem, in that (again, unlike with JRuby) Microsoft "owns" IronRuby. Last I knew, committers still had to sign a copyright assignment form to MS, and MS controls all the repositories and other assorted stuff. (AFAIK Charles has personally controlled all the JRuby repos since day one and still does). This provides a LARGE (to me at least) disincentive to contribute to IronRuby in the future. Because MS owns IronRuby, I feel like if I were to commit code, it would not be for the benefit of a nice friendly community-driven open source group, it would be for the benefit of Microsoft Corporation. I was happy to accept this when MS were putting a lot of work into IronRuby, but now that they're not, my feeling is "So Microsoft have bailed and left us hanging, why on earth would I want to do work on their behalf after they've just done that?" At any rate, I've not committed any code to IronRuby (I've come close several times, but never just had the time) so my opinion is largely irrelevant, I just hope that other potential committers with more time and skill than I don't end up feeling this way too :-(
on 2010-08-07 23:43

on 2010-08-08 01:15

I guess I never really sent the mail that I meant to send about my progression. Similar to Jimmy, I've also made the incredibly hard decision to move on as well. I've been working on the JavaScript team now for about 2 weeks. I've made this decision for many of the same reasons as Jimmy, but for various personal reasons, I decided to remain with MS instead of leaving. I will still be working with IronRuby, it just won't be my primary function anymore. I also had a wonderful time on the team, and I will really miss working directly with them. I agree that IronRuby is not a big community, but I don't know that it is a problem unless we let it be one :). I also feel that MS owning the code isn't a problem. It's not like it really benefits anyone inside of MS, it benefits us, the users :). It also benefits the Ruby community at large if we continue to make IronRuby a great product that people want to use in their .NET applications, because it shows people Ruby :) I understand that this is sad, and for some, expected :(, but I hope that people still continue doing the awesome things people have been doing :) JD From: ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Orion Edwards Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:43 PM To: ironruby-core@rubyforge.org Subject: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news" I'm sure most of you have seen this already, but I hadn't seen Jimmy's "farewell Microsoft" blog post posted to the list, so here it is if anyone hasn't read it http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/08/start-spre... I'd like to thank Jimmy for his work thus far on IronRuby, and certainly wish you the best of luck at your new job and living in NYC. From that point of view, it's happy days. The news about Microsoft's internal handling of IronRuby however makes me rather sad, and frankly a bit worried about the future of IronRuby in general. If there's now only 2 part-time developers working on IR inside Microsoft, and they've been told not to develop any new features, then where does that leave us? While IronRuby is open source (yay), It unfortunately hasn't seem to have become quite big enough (unlike JRuby) to be self sustaining. I personally also perceive somewhat of a problem, in that (again, unlike with JRuby) Microsoft "owns" IronRuby. Last I knew, committers still had to sign a copyright assignment form to MS, and MS controls all the repositories and other assorted stuff. (AFAIK Charles has personally controlled all the JRuby repos since day one and still does). This provides a LARGE (to me at least) disincentive to contribute to IronRuby in the future. Because MS owns IronRuby, I feel like if I were to commit code, it would not be for the benefit of a nice friendly community-driven open source group, it would be for the benefit of Microsoft Corporation. I was happy to accept this when MS were putting a lot of work into IronRuby, but now that they're not, my feeling is "So Microsoft have bailed and left us hanging, why on earth would I want to do work on their behalf after they've just done that?" At any rate, I've not committed any code to IronRuby (I've come close several times, but never just had the time) so my opinion is largely irrelevant, I just hope that other potential committers with more time and skill than I don't end up feeling this way too :-(
on 2010-08-08 02:05

If Microsoft was simply sponsoring development and putting its stamp on it, it wouldn't be a problem.. but the fact that MS "owns" it IS a bottleneck, as been from the start. "Sync to TFS" commits make me cringe everytime I see them. On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 7:07 PM, Jim Deville <jdeville@microsoft.com> wrote: > anymore. I also had a wonderful time on the team, and I will really miss > > > "farewell Microsoft" blog post posted to the list, so here it is if anyone > of view, it's happy days. > > > > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core > > -- Michael Letterle IronRuby MVP http://blog.prokrams.com
on 2010-08-08 02:40

I agree with Michael here. As long as the canonical source for IronRuby lives in TFS behind the big blue firewall, with only MSFT employees as core committers, there is a problem. What I propose is that we, as a community, designate the github repo as the canonical one, and that whoever controls it opens up commit access beyond the MSFT core team, perhaps to those that have already had accepted contribution. (this may already be in place, I don't know) Bottom line is that MSFT has decided they no longer desire to invest in the project. If we want IronRuby, we're going to have to make it happen, on our own. -- Will Green http://hotgazpacho.org/
on 2010-08-08 04:18

Is there anybody who decided not to submit a patch based upon the limitations/requirements of the current process and who would contribute otherwise? Is anybody willing to run a continuous integration server that guards the repo from erroneous patches? A canonical repo needs to have such a gatekeeper. Our internal SNAP system has provided this functionality for the internal TFS repo. BTW, "Sync to TFS" was an artifact of lack of automated sync tool. We now have that tool, thanks to Jim, so you should see less of these. Code review emails has been sent for most of the changes that were made to Ruby repo anyways. So if you watched the mailing list you could easily track what's going on. Only comments to changesets that included some internal infrastructure changes weren't sent to the mailing list. Tomas
on 2010-08-08 04:24

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 4:13 AM, Tomas Matousek
<Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Is there anybody who decided not to submit a patch based upon the
limitations/requirements of the current process and who would contribute otherwise?
Certainly.
I was interested from day one in contributing to the core part or IR
and to the DLR. I never bothered to do so knowing the limitations of
the current process.
on 2010-08-08 04:45

We've had a CI server set up on CJ's hardware for a while, it's actually worked from time to time as well :) http://twitter.com/IronRubyCI I'm more then willing to get that up and running again, it wasn't a general CI server though, it was mostly for mine and Ivan's changes for compilation under Linux. And Code review emails are just one extra step that's not needed, it's just bureaucracy added on by the current situation, it's a barrier to entry and a hassle. Don't misunderstand, the work gone into them IS appreciated, but it's just another *groan*. And I find it hard to believe that the only reason for an internal canonical repo was lack of external CI.. that's not what's being implied, is it? On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 10:13 PM, Tomas Matousek <Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com> wrote: > To: ironruby-core@rubyforge.org > Will Green >> >>> of leaving. I will still be working with IronRuby, it just won’t be >>> that people want to use in their .NET applications, because it shows >>> JD >>> >>> >>> IronRuby in general. If there's now only 2 part-time developers >>> I personally also perceive somewhat of a problem, in that (again, >>> >>> time and skill than I don't end up feeling this way too :-( >> -- > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core > _______________________________________________ > Ironruby-core mailing list > Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core > -- Michael Letterle IronRuby MVP http://blog.prokrams.com
on 2010-08-08 04:48

what about the code better teamcity server? http://teamcity.codebetter.com/ On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Michael Letterle <michael.letterle@gmail.com > wrote: > entry and a hassle. Don't misunderstand, the work gone into them IS > otherwise? > infrastructure changes weren't sent to the mailing list. > > I agree with Michael here. As long as the canonical source for IronRuby > the project. If we want IronRuby, we're going to have to make it happen, on > > > >>> > >>> > >>> I understand that this is sad, and for some, expected L, but I hope > >>> [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Orion > >>> is if anyone hasn't read it > >>> NYC. From that point of view, it's happy days. > >>> > does). > >>> their behalf after they've just done that?" > >>> Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org > >> _______________________________________________ > > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core > Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core > -- "The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct." - Occam’s Razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor
on 2010-08-08 05:09

Ok, I like to propose a pause in action. Here's what we know. Jimmy has moved on, as has Jim. Tomas is the main person left, and from the emails we've received, he's only working on it part-time. I don't know the politics of this specific org, but being an ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the politics that caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against IronRuby, but just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly reorganization. We also know thay we have a community of people who are passionate about IronRuby, and a secondary wave of people driven into action by the events of the past day or so. It stands to reason, from work I've done in other communties, that one or two will end up being long term participants because of the new awareness. That said, I don't think that what we should do right now is fork it, since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn't be controlled. This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to ask ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill: 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now lost that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we will need an external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person will have to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft side. 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I bet there are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to understand what else we're missing. 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by Microsoft PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their products. All three of these are vital points that we need to think about as a community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge of this - and it's not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas may be willing to take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that's a shame. IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That means we need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community and work to understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that makes sense. We already know from Jimmy's tweets that he's planning an email for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim and Jimmy have, and support the work Tomas is doing? Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we have to take action now before we lose the opportunity!" moment. The code is there. Many of the contributors are there, and know what is going on internally. Let's collaborate and find a way to make this project a real success. Cory
on 2010-08-08 05:13

Contributing to IR core should not be an issue anymore. DLR is still off limits due to a possibility that parts of it might be productized and become part of .NET Framework. Tomas
on 2010-08-08 05:27

Re CI server: cool, let's get one up and running then. Ideally we would have 2 - one running on Windows and other on Linux to make sure that IronRuby works well on both platforms. Both should run the same test-suite (irtests script). The harness might need some tweaks for Linux and you're welcome to submit patches. Re "Code review emails are just one extra step that's not needed": Code reviews are absolutely needed! It's not a bureaucracy, it's a quality gateway. Nobody should commit anything without a code review from the code owner. For now, that would be mostly me (core, libraries, csproj files), Jim (test harness, infrastructure) and Jimmy (Silverlight, ironRack). If anybody's interesting in owning some part of IronRuby let know the current owner. Actually, what do you mean by "canonical" repo? What would make GIT repo canonical? Tomas
on 2010-08-08 05:43

I could take a stab at getting a codebetter CI build up. Im pretty familiar with TeamCity, we use it at work. Not sure how CI friendly the current build script is, but hey ill give it a shot if your interested. On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Tomas Matousek <Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com > wrote: > (test harness, infrastructure) and Jimmy (Silverlight, ironRack). If > ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Michael Letterle > > Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com> wrote: > emails has been sent for most of the changes that were made to Ruby repo > > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:36 PM > > had accepted contribution. (this may already be in place, I don't > > > wrote: > >>> just won't be my primary function anymore. I also had a wonderful > >>> it shows people Ruby J > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> IronRuby in general. If there's now only 2 part-time developers > >>> I personally also perceive somewhat of a problem, in that (again, > >>> benefit of Microsoft Corporation. > >>> largely irrelevant, I just hope that other potential committers with > >> > > Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org > Michael Letterle > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core > -- "The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct." - Occam’s Razor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor
on 2010-08-08 06:10

If you can get me access I'd be happy to help you out with that. Especially if we can get access to a linux and win box in there. From: ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Johnson Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 8:43 PM To: ironruby-core@rubyforge.org Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news" I could take a stab at getting a codebetter CI build up. Im pretty familiar with TeamCity, we use it at work. Not sure how CI friendly the current build script is, but hey ill give it a shot if your interested. On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Tomas Matousek <Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com<mailto:Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com>> wrote: Re CI server: cool, let's get one up and running then. Ideally we would have 2 - one running on Windows and other on Linux to make sure that IronRuby works well on both platforms. Both should run the same test-suite (irtests script). The harness might need some tweaks for Linux and you're welcome to submit patches. Re "Code review emails are just one extra step that's not needed": Code reviews are absolutely needed! It's not a bureaucracy, it's a quality gateway. Nobody should commit anything without a code review from the code owner. For now, that would be mostly me (core, libraries, csproj files), Jim (test harness, infrastructure) and Jimmy (Silverlight, ironRack). If anybody's interesting in owning some part of IronRuby let know the current owner. Actually, what do you mean by "canonical" repo? What would make GIT repo canonical? Tomas
on 2010-08-08 11:30

Thanks Cory for the levelheadedness. It's all too easy to get upset and overreact (as I well know) Re Tomas' question about what would it take to make the github repo canonical. To me, it would need several things 1. The release builds need to be built directly from this repo 2. All the official project webpages need to refer to this repo as the main one
on 2010-08-08 14:51
I agree 100% with Cory, we just need to calm down, regroup, give support to Tomas, make our opinions heard and continue using the technology that helps us become way more productive in our jobs. On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just moved to another job. Regards, Eduardo Blumenfeld Cory Foy wrote: > Ok, I like to propose a pause in action. > > Here's what we know. Jimmy has moved on, as has Jim. Tomas is the main > person left, and from the emails we've received, he's only working on it > part-time. I don't know the politics of this specific org, but being an > ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the politics that > caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against IronRuby, but > just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly reorganization. > > We also know thay we have a community of people who are passionate about > IronRuby, and a secondary wave of people driven into action by the > events of the past day or so. It stands to reason, from work I've done > in other communties, that one or two will end up being long term > participants because of the new awareness. > > That said, I don't think that what we should do right now is fork it, > since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn't be controlled. > This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to ask > ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill: > > 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now lost > that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we will need an > external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person will have > to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft side. > > 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I bet there > are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned > movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to > understand what else we're missing. > > 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the > enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by Microsoft > PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their products. > > All three of these are vital points that we need to think about as a > community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge of this - > and it's not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas may be willing to > take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that's a > shame. > > IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That means we > need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community and work to > understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that makes > sense. We already know from Jimmy's tweets that he's planning an email > for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim and Jimmy > have, and support the work Tomas is doing? > > Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of > sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we have to take > action now before we lose the opportunity!" moment. The code is there. > Many of the contributors are there, and know what is going on > internally. Let's collaborate and find a way to make this project a real > success. > > Cory
on 2010-08-08 16:49

I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be very helpful if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe IronPython, too) for the future. Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"? Is Microsoft like to (officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in what way? As a project owner? And so on... Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions about what to do. More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do not know what to expect from future (questions like - will development of IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure support, what about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became problematic to make some of decisions. thanks, Slavo.
on 2010-08-08 17:52

To Cory's point about IronRuby's credibility in the Enterprise: I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported tool, there will be shops that will not be able to use it. On the other hand, there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they understand what they could use it for and how. To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been rather weak. I know it's a language, and so it's possibilities are just about endless, but what are the main areas we think people can derive significant benefit from using it? If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we need to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping people get started with using it for those things. This could help drive adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors. Some examples of things IronRuby may be 'for": 1. Unit Testing ( http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing... ) 2. Embedded Scripting ( http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-r...) 3. Silverlight ( http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-throu... ) 4. ? Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here: http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part... Thanks, Kevin Berridge
on 2010-08-08 23:17

4. Rails on .NET I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in both maturity and thinking. If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to iis, I think this would help a lot On question I'd REALLY like answered is this: Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now that he's left MS? Does anyone else outside MS have this? Thanks, Orion
on 2010-08-08 23:39

At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be commiting there directly is the automated account. Once we get official word from MS on what will happen with everything, I’d be happy to discuss the fate of the IronRuby organization on Github ☺ From: ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Orion Edwards Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM To: ironruby-core@rubyforge.org Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news" 4. Rails on .NET I think asp.net<http://asp.net> mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in both maturity and thinking. If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to iis, I think this would help a lot On question I'd REALLY like answered is this: Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now that he's left MS? Does anyone else outside MS have this? Thanks, Orion On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge <kevin.w.berridge@gmail.com<mailto:kevin.w.berridge@gmail.com>> wrote: To Cory's point about IronRuby's credibility in the Enterprise: I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported tool, there will be shops that will not be able to use it. On the other hand, there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they understand what they could use it for and how. To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been rather weak. I know it's a language, and so it's possibilities are just about endless, but what are the main areas we think people can derive significant benefit from using it? If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we need to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping people get started with using it for those things. This could help drive adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors. Some examples of things IronRuby may be 'for": 1. Unit Testing (http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing...) 2. Embedded Scripting (http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-r...) 3. Silverlight (http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-throu...) 4. ? Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here: http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part... Thanks, Kevin Berridge On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman <slavof@gmail.com<mailto:slavof@gmail.com>> wrote: I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be very helpful if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe IronPython, too) for the future. Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"? Is Microsoft like to (officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in what way? As a project owner? And so on... Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions about what to do. More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do not know what to expect from future (questions like - will development of IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure support, what about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became problematic to make some of decisions. thanks, Slavo. On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld <lists@ruby-forum.com<mailto:lists@ruby-forum.com>> wrote: > >> We also know thay we have a community of people who are passionate about >> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now lost >> enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by Microsoft >> understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that makes >> >> Cory > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > _______________________________________________ > Ironruby-core mailing list > Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org<mailto:Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core > _______________________________________________ Ironruby-core mailing list Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org<mailto:Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core _______________________________________________ Ironruby-core mailing list Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org<mailto:Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
on 2010-08-09 08:43

Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention. First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak on behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for all the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in and "cooled" down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this are well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with the mushy stuff ... The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is just going through that normal cycle. I'm grateful to Microsoft for not only employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind that Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it seems my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let's just assume what we suspect to be true unless told otherwise. This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0 release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should ask Microsoft to commit to during this transition: 1. *Be clear about their intentions. *I *know *this will eventually happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first step. 2. *Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity *(again, assuming they don't plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned by Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by Microsoft. Etc, etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so that we don't need to jointly own the copyright. There also is precedence in Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute. In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I'm not the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else you'd like to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and let's discuss it. I'm hoping my leaving announcement will speed this process along, so assume we have little time to provide "demands". After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run the project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we need to accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the time we'd like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do =)). But let's try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now. I've also hinted at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact me if you're interested). Also, feel free to still have the important conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I suggesting people stop talking. Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think you're taking my job too seriously =P ... but joking aside, I just wanted to move back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants to step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and write code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I'll still want to work on IronRuby. =) This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate everyone's support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but directed. Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your private fork, take shots at fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they'll eventually get integrated back. Continue blogging about how you're using IronRuby. Show the world that regardless of Microsoft's position, the community is what makes the project live. Now, discuss! ~Jimmy
on 2010-08-09 09:51

On 9/08/2010, at 6:42 PM, Jimmy Schementi wrote: > > This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0 release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should ask Microsoft to commit to during this transition: > Be clear about their intentions. I know this will eventually happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first step. > Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity (again, assuming they don't plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned by Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by Microsoft. Etc, etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so that we don't need to jointly own the copyright. There also is precedence in Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute. +1 This seems like an ideal fit for something like the Codeplex foundation, and as far as I can think, it would solve pretty much all the current uncertainty around the future of IR :-)
on 2010-08-09 11:13

+1 on being patient and see how we can shape the project and run a more community-driven ironruby, I think it's too early and rushed to start thinking about a fork (ferb or whatever). I'm on vacation right now so I can't do much, I'll be back in a week and see how I can help with anything. 2010/8/9, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy@schementi.com>: > The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and > Microsoft to commit to during this transition: > foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so > > Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think you're > fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they'll eventually get > >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM >> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular >> >> Thanks, Orion >> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they >> >> >> 3. Silverlight ( >> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part... >> if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say >> More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld <lists@ruby-forum.com> >> > Eduardo Blumenfeld >> >> just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly reorganization. >> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to ask >> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to >> >> shame. >> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of >> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. >> >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core >> >> > -- Daniele Alessandri http://clorophilla.net/ http://twitter.com/JoL1hAHN
on 2010-08-09 16:04

My biggest concern at this point is that Microsoft make clear what their intentions are with regards to the IronRuby project, the state of limbo that exists in untenable. One of the concerns I hear often is how the DLR is handled as well... is that pretty stable at this point, I was under that impression. The saddest thing about this whole episode is really how unsurprising it is, at least for those that have been paying attention for a while. On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:42 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy@schementi.com> wrote: > going through that normal cycle. I'm grateful to Microsoft for not only > want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first step. > In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I'm not > you're interested). Also, feel free to still have the important > This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate > On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Jim Deville <jdeville@microsoft.com> wrote: >> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM >> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular >> On question I'd REALLY like answered is this: >> On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge <kevin.w.berridge@gmail.com> >> >> to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping >> 2. Embedded Scripting >> >> >> about what to do. >> >> > >> >> caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against IronRuby, but >> >> since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn't be controlled. >> >> are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned >> >> take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that's a >> >> >> > -- >> >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Ironruby-core mailing list > Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core > > -- Michael Letterle IronRuby MVP http://blog.prokrams.com
on 2010-08-09 22:30

If you're looking for better Enterprise "adoption", I would say the lack of Visual Studio integration is a big sticking point. Perhaps you are implying that when you talk about Microsoft support. I built a few minor apps in IronRuby with Winforms as the GUI layer. It worked, but it was not as "easy" as it was with C#. On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Michael Letterle <michael.letterle@gmail.com
on 2010-08-10 18:39

Well, we've seen a few plus-ones on talking to Microsoft about their intentions for IronRuby. Tomas or Jim, since you're both still on the inside, perhaps one of you could speak, on behalf of the community, with someone at Microsoft who can clarify for us what their intentions are? -- Will Green http://hotgazpacho.org/
on 2010-08-12 16:33

Let's not push Tomas or Jim to say anything; This is a big enough issue that I'm sure Microsoft's PR firms are working on this. Again, I suggest we be patient for the next week. ~Jimmy
on 2010-10-22 02:38

In-case anyone is living under a rock, this thread has just become much more relevant; here's why: blogs.msdn.com/b/jasonz/archive/2010/10/21/new-components-and-contributors-for-ironpython-and-ironruby.aspx In short, Miguel de Icaza and I will be helping the community guide IronRuby, while us plus Michael Foord and Jeff Hardy will help guide IronPython. Also, IronRuby 1.1.1 has been released, which finally includes IronRuby tools for Visual Studio and the latest work towards 1.9 compatibility. I believe Tomas will send mail about the specifics shortly. ~Jimmy
on 2010-10-22 03:04

This is awesome. The news puts a smile on my face. Super cool. Brian On Oct 21, 2010 8:38 PM, "Jimmy Schementi" <jimmy@schementi.com> wrote: > In-case anyone is living under a rock, this thread has just become much more > relevant; here's why: > blogs.msdn.com/b/jasonz/archive/2010/10/21/new-components-and-contributors-for-ironpython-and-ironruby.aspx > On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy@schementi.com >wrote: > >> Let's not push Tomas or Jim to say anything; This is a big enough issue >> that I'm sure Microsoft's PR firms are working on this. Again, I suggest we >> be patient for the next week. >> >> ~Jimmy >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Will Green <will@hotgazpacho.org> wrote: >> >>> Well, we've seen a few plus-ones on talking to Microsoft about their >>> intentions for IronRuby. >>> >>> Tomas or Jim, since you're both still on the inside, perhaps one of you >>> could speak, on behalf of the community, with someone at Microsoft who can >>>> Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic >>>> twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention. >>>> >>>> First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak on >>>> behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for all >>>> the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in and >>>> "cooled" down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this are >>>> well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with the >>>> mushy stuff ... >>>> >>>> The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and >>>> funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is just >>>> going through that normal cycle. I'm grateful to Microsoft for not only >>>> employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind that >>>> Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it seems >>>> my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let's just assume what we suspect >>>> to be true unless told otherwise. >>>> >>>> This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to >>>> rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0 >>>> release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should ask >>>> Microsoft to commit to during this transition: >>>> >>>> 1. *Be clear about their intentions. *I *know *this will eventually >>>> happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first >>>> step. >>>> 2. *Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity *(again, assuming they >>>> don't plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an >>>> open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned by >>>> Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by Microsoft. Etc, >>>> etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit >>>> foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so >>>> that we don't need to jointly own the copyright. There also is precedence in >>>> Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so >>>> Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute. >>>> >>>> In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I'm not >>>> the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else you'd like >>>> to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and let's >>>> discuss it. I'm hoping my leaving announcement will speed this process >>>> along, so assume we have little time to provide "demands". >>>> >>>> After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run the >>>> project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we need to >>>> accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the time >>>> we'd like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do =)). >>>> But let's try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now. I've also hinted >>>> at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact me if >>>> you're interested). Also, feel free to still have the important >>>> conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I suggesting >>>> people stop talking. >>>> >>>> Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think you're >>>> taking my job too seriously =P ... but joking aside, I just wanted to move >>>> back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or >>>> IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants to >>>> step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and write >>>> code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I'll >>>> still want to work on IronRuby. =) >>>> >>>> This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate >>>> everyone's support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but directed. >>>> Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your private fork, take shots at >>>> fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they'll eventually get >>>> integrated back. Continue blogging about how you're using IronRuby. Show the >>>> world that regardless of Microsoft's position, the community is what makes >>>> >>>>> At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be commiting >>>>> there directly is the automated account. Once we get official word from MS >>>>> on what will happen with everything, Id be happy to discuss the fate of the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 4. Rails on .NET >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular >>>>> scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in both maturity >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported tool, >>>>> there will be shops that will not be able to use it. On the other hand, >>>>> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they >>>>> understand what they could use it for and how. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been rather weak. I >>>>> know it's a language, and so it's possibilities are just about endless, but >>>>> what are the main areas we think people can derive significant benefit from >>>>> using it? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we need >>>>> to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping >>>>> people get started with using it for those things. This could help drive >>>>> adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Some examples of things IronRuby may be 'for": >>>>> >>>>> 1. Unit Testing ( >>>>> http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing... >>>>> ) >>>>> >>>>> 2. Embedded Scripting ( >>>>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-r... >>>>> ) >>>>> >>>>> 3. Silverlight ( >>>>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-throu... >>>>> ) >>>>> >>>>> 4. ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part... >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Kevin Berridge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman <slavof@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions >>>>> Slavo. >>>>> > On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just moved to another >>>>> main >>>>> >> person left, and from the emails we've received, he's only working on >>>>> it >>>>> >> part-time. I don't know the politics of this specific org, but being >>>>> an >>>>> >> ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the politics that >>>>> >> participants because of the new awareness. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> That said, I don't think that what we should do right now is fork it, >>>>> >> since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn't be >>>>> controlled. >>>>> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to >>>>> ask >>>>> >> ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now >>>>> lost >>>>> >> that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we will need >>>>> an >>>>> >> external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person will >>>>> have >>>>> >> to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft side. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I bet >>>>> there >>>>> >> are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned >>>>> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to >>>>> >> understand what else we're missing. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the >>>>> >> enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by Microsoft >>>>> >> PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their products. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> All three of these are vital points that we need to think about as a >>>>> >> community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge of this >>>>> - >>>>> >> and it's not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas may be willing >>>>> to >>>>> >> take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that's a >>>>> >> shame. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That means we >>>>> >> need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community and work >>>>> to >>>>> >> understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that makes >>>>> >> sense. We already know from Jimmy's tweets that he's planning an >>>>> email >>>>> >> for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim and >>>>> Jimmy >>>>> >> have, and support the work Tomas is doing? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of >>>>> >> sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we have to take
on 2010-10-22 03:36

I love the new IronRuby project types. It brings me much pleasure to be able to do File - New Rails 3 Web Application right inside VS2010! I might not be booting Ubuntu as much in the days, weeks ahead as I have been. Congrats to the IronRuby core team! We greatly appreciate your dedication to the project. Also, thanks to Microsoft for not pulling the plug on something so promising. Thanks, Mike Hatfield Chief Technology Officer Nicom IT Solutions Inc. Twitter: @WebCoding4Fun
on 2010-10-22 05:07

Best. Fucking. Decision. Ever. Time for IronRuby to rock and roll. Let's do this. \m/ On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy@schementi.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Will Green <will@hotgazpacho.org> wrote: >>> >>>> mushy stuff ... >>>> Microsoft to commit to during this transition: >>>> Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so >>>> we'd like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do =)). >>>> code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I'll >>>> ~Jimmy >>>>> >>>>> 4. Rails on .NET >>>>> this would help a lot >>>>> >>>>> I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported tool, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in >>>>> make some of decisions. >>>>> > helps us become way more productive in our jobs. >>>>> >> Ok, I like to propose a pause in action. >>>>> >> but >>>>> >> That said, I don't think that what we should do right now is fork >>>>> >> an >>>>> >> 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the >>>>> >> shame. >>>>> >> Jimmy >>>>> >> success. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core > > _______________________________________________ > Ironruby-core mailing list > Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core > > -- Michael Letterle IronRuby MVP http://blog.prokrams.com
on 2010-10-23 07:47

:) On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Michael Letterle <