I'm sure most of you have seen this already, but I hadn't seen Jimmy's
"farewell Microsoft" blog post posted to the list, so here it is if
anyone hasn't read it

http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/08/start-spre...

I'd like to thank Jimmy for his work thus far on IronRuby, and certainly
wish you the best of luck at your new job and living in NYC. From that
point of view, it's happy days.

The news about Microsoft's internal handling of IronRuby however makes
me rather sad, and frankly a bit worried about the future of IronRuby in
general. If there's now only 2 part-time developers working on IR inside
Microsoft, and they've been told not to develop any new features, then
where does that leave us?

While IronRuby is open source (yay), It unfortunately hasn't seem to
have become quite big enough (unlike JRuby) to be self sustaining.

I personally also perceive somewhat of a problem, in that (again, unlike
with JRuby) Microsoft "owns" IronRuby. Last I knew, committers still had
to sign a copyright assignment form to MS, and MS controls all the
repositories and other assorted stuff. (AFAIK Charles has personally
controlled all the JRuby repos since day one and still does).
This provides a LARGE (to me at least) disincentive to contribute to
IronRuby in the future. Because MS owns IronRuby, I feel like if I were
to commit code, it would not be for the benefit of a nice friendly
community-driven open source group, it would be for the benefit of
Microsoft Corporation.
I was happy to accept this when MS were putting a lot of work into
IronRuby, but now that they're not, my feeling is "So Microsoft have
bailed and left us hanging, why on earth would I want to do work on
their behalf after they've just done that?"

At any rate, I've not committed any code to IronRuby (I've come close
several times, but never just had the time) so my opinion is largely
irrelevant, I just hope that other potential committers with more time
and skill than I don't end up feeling this way too :-(

I guess I never really sent the mail that I meant to send about my
progression.

Similar to Jimmy, I've also made the incredibly hard decision to move on
as well. I've been working on the JavaScript team now for about 2 weeks.
I've made this decision for many of the same reasons as Jimmy, but for
various personal reasons, I decided to remain with MS instead of
leaving. I will still be working with IronRuby, it just won't be my
primary function anymore.  I also had a wonderful time on the team, and
I will really miss working directly with them.

I agree that IronRuby is not a big community, but I don't know that it
is a problem unless we let it be one :). I also feel that MS owning the
code isn't a problem. It's not like it really benefits anyone inside of
MS, it benefits us, the users :). It also benefits the Ruby community at
large if we continue to make IronRuby a great product that people want
to use in their .NET applications, because it shows people Ruby :)

I understand that this is sad, and for some, expected :(, but I hope
that people still continue doing the awesome things people have been
doing :)

JD

From: ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org
[mailto:ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Orion Edwards
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:43 PM
To: ironruby-core@rubyforge.org
Subject: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"

I'm sure most of you have seen this already, but I hadn't seen Jimmy's
"farewell Microsoft" blog post posted to the list, so here it is if
anyone hasn't read it

http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/08/start-spre...

I'd like to thank Jimmy for his work thus far on IronRuby, and certainly
wish you the best of luck at your new job and living in NYC. From that
point of view, it's happy days.

The news about Microsoft's internal handling of IronRuby however makes
me rather sad, and frankly a bit worried about the future of IronRuby in
general. If there's now only 2 part-time developers working on IR inside
Microsoft, and they've been told not to develop any new features, then
where does that leave us?

While IronRuby is open source (yay), It unfortunately hasn't seem to
have become quite big enough (unlike JRuby) to be self sustaining.

I personally also perceive somewhat of a problem, in that (again, unlike
with JRuby) Microsoft "owns" IronRuby. Last I knew, committers still had
to sign a copyright assignment form to MS, and MS controls all the
repositories and other assorted stuff. (AFAIK Charles has personally
controlled all the JRuby repos since day one and still does).
This provides a LARGE (to me at least) disincentive to contribute to
IronRuby in the future. Because MS owns IronRuby, I feel like if I were
to commit code, it would not be for the benefit of a nice friendly
community-driven open source group, it would be for the benefit of
Microsoft Corporation.
I was happy to accept this when MS were putting a lot of work into
IronRuby, but now that they're not, my feeling is "So Microsoft have
bailed and left us hanging, why on earth would I want to do work on
their behalf after they've just done that?"

At any rate, I've not committed any code to IronRuby (I've come close
several times, but never just had the time) so my opinion is largely
irrelevant, I just hope that other potential committers with more time
and skill than I don't end up feeling this way too :-(

Is there anybody who decided not to submit a patch based upon the
limitations/requirements of the current process and who would contribute
otherwise?
Is anybody willing to run a continuous integration server that guards
the repo from erroneous patches? A canonical repo needs to have such a
gatekeeper. Our internal SNAP system has provided this functionality for
the internal TFS repo.

BTW, "Sync to TFS" was an artifact of lack of automated sync tool. We
now have that tool, thanks to Jim, so you should see less of these. Code
review emails has been sent for most of the changes that were made to
Ruby repo anyways. So if you watched the mailing list you could easily
track what's going on. Only comments to changesets that included some
internal infrastructure changes weren't sent to the mailing list.

Tomas

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 4:13 AM, Tomas Matousek
<Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Is there anybody who decided not to submit a patch based upon the 
limitations/requirements of the current process and who would contribute otherwise?

Certainly.

I was interested from day one in contributing to the core part or IR
and to the DLR. I never bothered to do so knowing the limitations of
the current process.

what about the code better teamcity server?
http://teamcity.codebetter.com/

On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Michael Letterle
<michael.letterle@gmail.com
> wrote:

> entry and a hassle.  Don't misunderstand, the work gone into them IS
> otherwise?
> infrastructure changes weren't sent to the mailing list.
> > I agree with Michael here. As long as the canonical source for IronRuby
> the project. If we want IronRuby, we're going to have to make it happen, on
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I understand that this is sad, and for some, expected L, but I hope
> >>> [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Orion
> >>> is if anyone hasn't read it
> >>> NYC. From that point of view, it's happy days.
> >>>
> does).
> >>> their behalf after they've just done that?"
> >>> Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org
> >> _______________________________________________
> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>



--
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be
correct."

- Occam’s Razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Ok, I like to propose a pause in action.

Here's what we know. Jimmy has moved on, as has Jim. Tomas is the main
person left, and from the emails we've received, he's only working on it
part-time. I don't know the politics of this specific org, but being an
ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the politics that
caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against IronRuby, but
just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly reorganization.

We also know thay we have a community of people who are passionate about
IronRuby, and a secondary wave of people driven into action by the
events of the past day or so. It stands to reason, from work I've done
in other communties, that one or two will end up being long term
participants because of the new awareness.

That said, I don't think that what we should do right now is fork it,
since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn't be controlled.
This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to ask
ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill:

1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now lost
that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we will need an
external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person will have
to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft side.

2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I bet there
are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned
movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to
understand what else we're missing.

3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the
enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by Microsoft
PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their products.

All three of these are vital points that we need to think about as a
community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge of this -
and it's not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas may be willing to
take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that's a
shame.

IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That means we
need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community and work to
understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that makes
sense. We already know from Jimmy's tweets that he's planning an email
for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim and Jimmy
have, and support the work Tomas is doing?

Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of
sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we have to take
action now before we lose the opportunity!" moment. The code is there.
Many of the contributors are there, and know what is going on
internally. Let's collaborate and find a way to make this project a real
success.

Cory

Contributing to IR core should not be an issue anymore.

DLR is still off limits due to a possibility that parts of it might be
productized and become part of .NET Framework.

Tomas

Re CI server: cool, let's get one up and running then. Ideally we would
have 2 - one running on Windows and other on Linux to make sure that
IronRuby works well on both platforms.
Both should run the same test-suite (irtests script). The harness might
need some tweaks for Linux and you're welcome to submit patches.

Re "Code review emails are just one extra step that's not needed":
Code reviews are absolutely needed! It's not a bureaucracy, it's a
quality gateway. Nobody should commit anything without a code review
from the code owner. For now, that would be mostly me (core, libraries,
csproj files), Jim (test harness, infrastructure) and Jimmy
(Silverlight, ironRack). If anybody's interesting in owning some part of
IronRuby let know the current owner.

Actually, what do you mean by "canonical" repo? What would make GIT repo
canonical?

Tomas

I could take a stab at getting a codebetter CI build up. Im pretty
familiar
with TeamCity, we use it at work. Not sure how CI friendly the current
build
script is, but hey ill give it a shot if your interested.

On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Tomas Matousek
<Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com
> wrote:

> (test harness, infrastructure) and Jimmy (Silverlight, ironRack). If
> ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Michael Letterle
>
> Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com> wrote:
> emails has been sent for most of the changes that were made to Ruby repo
> > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 5:36 PM
> > had accepted contribution. (this may already be in place, I don't
> >
> wrote:
> >>> just won't be my primary function anymore.  I also had a wonderful
> >>> it shows people Ruby J
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> IronRuby in general. If there's now only 2 part-time developers
> >>> I personally also perceive somewhat of a problem, in that (again,
> >>> benefit of Microsoft Corporation.
> >>> largely irrelevant, I just hope that other potential committers with
> >>
> > Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org
> Michael Letterle
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>



--
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be
correct."

- Occam’s Razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

+1

Sent from my iPhone

If you can get me access I'd be happy to help you out with that.
Especially if we can get access to a linux and win box in there.

From: ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org
[mailto:ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Johnson
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 8:43 PM
To: ironruby-core@rubyforge.org
Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"

I could take a stab at getting a codebetter CI build up. Im pretty
familiar with TeamCity, we use it at work. Not sure how CI friendly the
current build script is, but hey ill give it a shot if your interested.
On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Tomas Matousek
<Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com<mailto:Tomas.Matousek@microsoft.com>>
wrote:
Re CI server: cool, let's get one up and running then. Ideally we would
have 2 - one running on Windows and other on Linux to make sure that
IronRuby works well on both platforms.
Both should run the same test-suite (irtests script). The harness might
need some tweaks for Linux and you're welcome to submit patches.

Re "Code review emails are just one extra step that's not needed":
Code reviews are absolutely needed! It's not a bureaucracy, it's a
quality gateway. Nobody should commit anything without a code review
from the code owner. For now, that would be mostly me (core, libraries,
csproj files), Jim (test harness, infrastructure) and Jimmy
(Silverlight, ironRack). If anybody's interesting in owning some part of
IronRuby let know the current owner.

Actually, what do you mean by "canonical" repo? What would make GIT repo
canonical?

Tomas

Thanks Cory for the levelheadedness. It's all too easy to get upset and
overreact (as I well know)

Re Tomas' question about what would it take to make the github repo
canonical. To me, it would need several things

1. The release builds need to be built directly from this repo

2. All the official project webpages need to refer to this repo as the
main one

I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be very helpful
if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say
what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe IronPython, too) for
the future.

Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"? Is Microsoft like to
(officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in
what way? As a project owner? And so on...

Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions
about what to do.

More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I
am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do not know
what to expect from future (questions like - will development of
IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure support, what
about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became problematic to
make some of decisions.

thanks,
Slavo.

4. Rails on .NET

I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in both
maturity and thinking.

If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to iis, I think
this would help a lot

On question I'd REALLY like answered is this:

Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now that
he's left MS? Does anyone else outside MS have this?

Thanks, Orion

At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be commiting
there directly is the automated account. Once we get official word from
MS on what will happen with everything, I’d be happy to discuss the fate
of the IronRuby organization on Github ☺

From: ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org
[mailto:ironruby-core-bounces@rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Orion Edwards
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
To: ironruby-core@rubyforge.org
Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"

4. Rails on .NET

I think asp.net<http://asp.net> mvc took a lot of the wind out of this
particular scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC
in both maturity and thinking.

If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to iis, I think
this would help a lot

On question I'd REALLY like answered is this:

Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now that
he's left MS? Does anyone else outside MS have this?

Thanks, Orion

On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge
<kevin.w.berridge@gmail.com<mailto:kevin.w.berridge@gmail.com>> wrote:
To Cory's point about IronRuby's credibility in the Enterprise:

I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported tool,
there will be shops that will not be able to use it.  On the other hand,
there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they
understand what they could use it for and how.

To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been rather weak.  I
know it's a language, and so it's possibilities are just about endless,
but what are the main areas we think people can derive significant
benefit from using it?

If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we need
to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping
people get started with using it for those things.  This could help
drive adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors.

Some examples of things IronRuby may be 'for":
1. Unit Testing
(http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing...)
2. Embedded Scripting
(http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-r...)
3. Silverlight
(http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-throu...)
4. ?

Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here:
http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part...
Thanks,
Kevin Berridge

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman
<slavof@gmail.com<mailto:slavof@gmail.com>> wrote:
I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be very helpful
if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say
what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe IronPython, too) for
the future.

Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"? Is Microsoft like to
(officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in
what way? As a project owner? And so on...

Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions
about what to do.

More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I
am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do not know
what to expect from future (questions like - will development of
IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure support, what
about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became problematic to
make some of decisions.

thanks,
Slavo.

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld
<lists@ruby-forum.com<mailto:lists@ruby-forum.com>> wrote:
>
>> We also know thay we have a community of people who are passionate about
>> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now lost
>> enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by Microsoft
>> understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that makes
>>
>> Cory
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org<mailto:Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org>
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>
_______________________________________________
Ironruby-core mailing list
Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org<mailto:Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org>
http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core

_______________________________________________
Ironruby-core mailing list
Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org<mailto:Ironruby-core@rubyforge.org>
http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core

Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic
twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention.

First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak on
behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for
all
the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in and
"cooled" down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this are
well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with the
mushy stuff ...

The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is just
going through that normal cycle. I'm grateful to Microsoft for not only
employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind that
Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it
seems
my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let's just assume what we
suspect
to be true unless told otherwise.

This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to
rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0
release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should
ask
Microsoft to commit to during this transition:

   1. *Be clear about their intentions. *I *know *this will eventually
   happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the
first
   step.
   2. *Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity *(again, assuming they
   don't plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under
an
   open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned
by
   Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by
Microsoft. Etc,
   etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit
   foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal,
so
   that we don't need to jointly own the copyright. There also is
precedence in
   Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex
foundation, so
   Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.

In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I'm
not
the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else you'd
like
to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and let's
discuss it. I'm hoping my leaving announcement will speed this process
along, so assume we have little time to provide "demands".

After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run the
project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we
need to
accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the
time
we'd like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do
=)).
But let's try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now. I've also
hinted
at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact
me if
you're interested). Also, feel free to still have the important
conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I
suggesting
people stop talking.

Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think you're
taking my job too seriously =P  ... but joking aside, I just wanted to
move
back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or
IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants
to
step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and write
code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I'll
still want to work on IronRuby. =)

This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
everyone's support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but
directed.
Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your private fork, take
shots at
fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they'll eventually
get
integrated back. Continue blogging about how you're using IronRuby. Show
the
world that regardless of Microsoft's position, the community is what
makes
the project live.

Now, discuss!

~Jimmy

On 9/08/2010, at 6:42 PM, Jimmy Schementi wrote:
>
> This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to rally around 
something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0 release, and make it your own. 
However, there are two things we should ask Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
> Be clear about their intentions. I know this will eventually happen, but I want to make 
it clear to all of you that this is the first step.
> Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity (again, assuming they don't plan on continuing 
funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an open-source license, it is copyright 
Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned by Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is 
managed by Microsoft. Etc, etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a 
non-profit foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so that 
we don't need to jointly own the copyright. There also is precedence in Microsoft for 
internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so Tomas and Jim can continue to 
contribute.

+1

This seems like an ideal fit for something like the Codeplex foundation,
and as far as I can think, it would solve pretty much all the current
uncertainty around the future of IR :-)

+1

+1 on being patient and see how we can shape the project and run a
more community-driven ironruby, I think it's too early and rushed to
start thinking about a fork (ferb or whatever). I'm on vacation right
now so I can't do much, I'll be back in a week and see how I can help
with anything.

2010/8/9, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy@schementi.com>:
> The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
> Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
>    foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so
>
> Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think you're
> fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they'll eventually get
>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
>> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
>>
>> Thanks, Orion
>> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they
>>
>>
>> 3. Silverlight (
>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part...
>> if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say
>> More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I
>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld <lists@ruby-forum.com>
>> > Eduardo Blumenfeld
>> >> just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly reorganization.
>> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to ask
>> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to
>> >> shame.
>> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of
>> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>>
>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>
>>
>


--
Daniele Alessandri
http://clorophilla.net/
http://twitter.com/JoL1hAHN

If you're looking for better Enterprise "adoption", I would say the lack
of
Visual Studio integration is a big sticking point. Perhaps you are
implying
that when you talk about Microsoft support.

I built a few minor apps in IronRuby with Winforms as the GUI layer. It
worked, but it was not as "easy" as it was with C#.

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Michael Letterle
<michael.letterle@gmail.com

Let's not push Tomas or Jim to say anything; This is a big enough issue
that
I'm sure Microsoft's PR firms are working on this. Again, I suggest we
be
patient for the next week.

~Jimmy

In-case anyone is living under a rock, this thread has just become much
more
relevant; here's why:
blogs.msdn.com/b/jasonz/archive/2010/10/21/new-components-and-contributors-for-ironpython-and-ironruby.aspx

In short, Miguel de Icaza and I will be helping the community guide
IronRuby, while us plus Michael Foord and Jeff Hardy will help guide
IronPython. Also, IronRuby 1.1.1 has been released, which finally
includes
IronRuby tools for Visual Studio and the latest work towards 1.9
compatibility. I believe Tomas will send mail about the specifics
shortly.

~Jimmy

This is awesome.  The news puts a smile on my face.  Super cool.

Brian

On Oct 21, 2010 8:38 PM, "Jimmy Schementi" <jimmy@schementi.com> wrote:
> In-case anyone is living under a rock, this thread has just become much
more
> relevant; here's why:
>
blogs.msdn.com/b/jasonz/archive/2010/10/21/new-components-and-contributors-for-ironpython-and-ironruby.aspx
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy@schementi.com
>wrote:
>
>> Let's not push Tomas or Jim to say anything; This is a big enough issue
>> that I'm sure Microsoft's PR firms are working on this. Again, I suggest
we
>> be patient for the next week.
>>
>> ~Jimmy
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Will Green <will@hotgazpacho.org>
wrote:
>>
>>> Well, we've seen a few plus-ones on talking to Microsoft about their
>>> intentions for IronRuby.
>>>
>>> Tomas or Jim, since you're both still on the inside, perhaps one of you
>>> could speak, on behalf of the community, with someone at Microsoft who
can
>>>> Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic
>>>> twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention.
>>>>
>>>> First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak
on
>>>> behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for
all
>>>> the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in
and
>>>> "cooled" down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this are
>>>> well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with
the
>>>> mushy stuff ...
>>>>
>>>> The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
>>>> funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is
just
>>>> going through that normal cycle. I'm grateful to Microsoft for not only
>>>> employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind
that
>>>> Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it
seems
>>>> my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let's just assume what we
suspect
>>>> to be true unless told otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community,
to
>>>> rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0
>>>> release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should
ask
>>>> Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
>>>>
>>>> 1. *Be clear about their intentions. *I *know *this will eventually
>>>> happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the
first
>>>> step.
>>>> 2. *Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity *(again, assuming they
>>>> don't plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an
>>>> open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned
by
>>>> Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by Microsoft.
Etc,
>>>> etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit
>>>> foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal,
so
>>>> that we don't need to jointly own the copyright. There also is
precedence in
>>>> Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation,
so
>>>> Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I'm
not
>>>> the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else you'd
like
>>>> to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and let's
>>>> discuss it. I'm hoping my leaving announcement will speed this process
>>>> along, so assume we have little time to provide "demands".
>>>>
>>>> After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run
the
>>>> project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we
need to
>>>> accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the
time
>>>> we'd like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do
=)).
>>>> But let's try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now. I've also
hinted
>>>> at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact
me if
>>>> you're interested). Also, feel free to still have the important
>>>> conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I
suggesting
>>>> people stop talking.
>>>>
>>>> Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think you're
>>>> taking my job too seriously =P ... but joking aside, I just wanted to
move
>>>> back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or
>>>> IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants
to
>>>> step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and write
>>>> code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I'll
>>>> still want to work on IronRuby. =)
>>>>
>>>> This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
>>>> everyone's support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but
directed.
>>>> Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your private fork, take
shots at
>>>> fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they'll eventually
get
>>>> integrated back. Continue blogging about how you're using IronRuby.
Show the
>>>> world that regardless of Microsoft's position, the community is what
makes
>>>>
>>>>> At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be commiting
>>>>> there directly is the automated account. Once we get official word
from MS
>>>>> on what will happen with everything, Id be happy to discuss the fate
of the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. Rails on .NET
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
>>>>> scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in both
maturity
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now
that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported
tool,
>>>>> there will be shops that will not be able to use it. On the other
hand,
>>>>> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they
>>>>> understand what they could use it for and how.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been rather weak. I
>>>>> know it's a language, and so it's possibilities are just about
endless, but
>>>>> what are the main areas we think people can derive significant benefit
from
>>>>> using it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we
need
>>>>> to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping
>>>>> people get started with using it for those things. This could help
drive
>>>>> adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some examples of things IronRuby may be 'for":
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Unit Testing (
>>>>>
http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing...
>>>>> )
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Embedded Scripting (
>>>>>
http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-r...
>>>>> )
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Silverlight (
>>>>>
http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-throu...
>>>>> )
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kevin Berridge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman <slavof@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>> Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions
>>>>> Slavo.
>>>>> > On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just moved to
another
>>>>> main
>>>>> >> person left, and from the emails we've received, he's only working
on
>>>>> it
>>>>> >> part-time. I don't know the politics of this specific org, but
being
>>>>> an
>>>>> >> ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the politics
that
>>>>> >> participants because of the new awareness.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> That said, I don't think that what we should do right now is fork
it,
>>>>> >> since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn't be
>>>>> controlled.
>>>>> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to
>>>>> ask
>>>>> >> ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now
>>>>> lost
>>>>> >> that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we will
need
>>>>> an
>>>>> >> external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person will
>>>>> have
>>>>> >> to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft
side.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I bet
>>>>> there
>>>>> >> are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned
>>>>> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to
>>>>> >> understand what else we're missing.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the
>>>>> >> enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by
Microsoft
>>>>> >> PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their
products.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> All three of these are vital points that we need to think about as
a
>>>>> >> community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge of
this
>>>>> -
>>>>> >> and it's not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas may be willing
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that's
a
>>>>> >> shame.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That means
we
>>>>> >> need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community and
work
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that
makes
>>>>> >> sense. We already know from Jimmy's tweets that he's planning an
>>>>> email
>>>>> >> for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim and
>>>>> Jimmy
>>>>> >> have, and support the work Tomas is doing?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of
>>>>> >> sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we have to
take

I love the new IronRuby project types.  It brings me much pleasure to be
able to do File - New Rails 3 Web Application right inside VS2010!  I
might
not be booting Ubuntu as much in the days, weeks ahead as I have been.

Congrats to the IronRuby core team!  We greatly appreciate your
dedication
to the project.

Also, thanks to Microsoft for not pulling the plug on something so
promising.

Thanks,

Mike Hatfield
Chief Technology Officer
Nicom IT Solutions Inc.

Twitter: @WebCoding4Fun

:)

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Michael Letterle <