Forum: Typo Can't update feeds?

8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-08 05:35
(Received via mailing list)
My Typo blog at new.mischeathen.com has a feed that contains only the
first post ever on that blog, and will not update.

How can I force this to behave properly? It vexes me. :(


Chet Farmer
chet@nogators.com
----
"I knew I love you oh various left bye." -- Erin,  according to
CallWave's transcription service, 10/6/2007
700f9a3b883e6a04d018f48290b1a3fd?d=identicon&s=25 de Villamil Frédéric (Guest)
on 2008-07-08 18:54
(Received via mailing list)
Le 8 juil. 08 à 05:34, Chet Farmer a écrit :

>
> My Typo blog at new.mischeathen.com has a feed that contains only
> the first post ever on that blog, and will not update.
>
> How can I force this to behave properly? It vexes me. :(
>
>
> Chet Farmer
> chet@nogators.com

Please, give us your Typo version and cache type used.
Fred

--
Frédéric de Villamil
frederic@de-villamil.com                        tel: +33 (0)6 62 19 1337
http://fredericdevillamil.com             Typo : http://typosphere.org
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-08 18:54
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 8, 2008, at 11:25 AM, de Villamil Frédéric wrote:
> Please, give us your Typo version and cache type used.
> Fred

Mea culpa. I updated my typo install (and the binary is now dated
yesterday) with the most current gem, but the blog itself still
reports 5.0.2. How can I verify this?

The feed issue persists in both static html and semi-dynamic modes.


---
"Don't let your mongoose get cold or dirty, or it will die."
(Animals as Friends and How to Keep Them, by Shaw & Fisher, Dent 1939)
Ed52c0d47479c25eee49ec92b366d880?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Sanford (Guest)
on 2008-07-10 20:22
(Received via mailing list)
I have not been satisfied w/ Typo but I keep on the mailing list.

If you want to do a full site management tool with a blogging engine
and don't mind PHP then I recommend Drupal.

If you just want a blogging tool then there are two Java ones that I
used to follow that you might be interested in
+ Blojsom (http://wiki.blojsom.com/wiki/display/blojsom3/About+blojsom)
which Apple included w/ one of their OSX Server releases and may still
do so. It is a file-based rather than database based engine.
+ Roller (http://rollerweblogger.org/project/) which is actually used
to power the Sun Microsystems blogs both public facing and internal as
well as IBM Developer Works blogs.

Or you could just keep on w/ Typo :)

rjsjr
Ed52c0d47479c25eee49ec92b366d880?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Sanford (Guest)
on 2008-07-10 20:25
(Received via mailing list)
Apologies. This was intended as a private message to another member.

rjsjr
700f9a3b883e6a04d018f48290b1a3fd?d=identicon&s=25 de Villamil Frédéric (Guest)
on 2008-07-12 09:44
(Received via mailing list)
Le 10 juil. 08 à 20:20, Robert Sanford a écrit :

>>
>> well as IBM Developer Works blogs.
>>
>> Or you could just keep on w/ Typo :)
>>
>> rjsjr
>>

Don't apologize, this is quite interesting. One of my jobs as a QA
manager is just to get feedback from unsatisfied users in order to
improve the application, and you just seem to fit the role. So please,
tell me more, I'm really looking forward reading what can be improved
here. I would have prefered a patch, but some feedback will be OK too.


--
Frédéric de Villamil
frederic@de-villamil.com                        tel: +33 (0)6 62 19 1337
http://fredericdevillamil.com             Typo : http://typosphere.org
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-12 20:48
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 12, 2008, at 2:43 AM, de Villamil Frédéric wrote:
> Don't apologize, this is quite interesting. One of my jobs as a QA
> manager is just to get feedback from unsatisfied users in order to
> improve the application, and you just seem to fit the role. So
> please, tell me more, I'm really looking forward reading what can be
> improved here. I would have prefered a patch, but some feedback will
> be OK too.
>
> --
> Frédéric de Villamil

Well, Robert was replying to me; it's my frustration with Typo he's
addressing.

My first real issue with it is the complexity of its installation, and
the requirements it imposes if you want to run it on the same box with
Apache (i.e., the proxying thing with Mongrel). I found little in the
way of informative installation instructions; mostly I saw step-by-
step guides that explained nothing beyond "do A, B, and C".

But that's a basic architecture thing. The Typo leaders decided to
build it this way, despite the extra complexity it demands over a
traditional LAMP-stack-in-a-VHost type deployment. Mileage varies, and
all that.

My major complaints with Typo itself are three-fold:

First, that it does not play nice with MarsEdit or any other local
blogging client. I'm coming to Typo from a long-term Blosxom install
where I wrote in TextMate and rsync'd my posts, and picked Typo
because I thought I'd be able to use ME or even TM's own blogging
bundle. Unfortunately, neither categories nor tags work properly via
these clients, pushing me back into the web editor. That's annoying. I
have the online features I wanted but couldn't get with Blosxom
(mostly comment-related), but have lost functionality w/r/t my actual
posting mechanism.

Second, I can't for the life of me figure out how to get my feeds to
work; see my other posts for more information there.

Third, it's not at all clear to me how to upgrade. I thought I'd done
it, but my site still reports an old version number.

Any help you can give me would be appreciated! I'd prefer to avoid
WordPress and Moveable Type given what I know about either platform,
but my frustrations with Typo make staying with it a challenge.

Best,

Chet Farmer
Houston, TX


---
"Don't let your mongoose get cold or dirty, or it will die."
(Animals as Friends and How to Keep Them, by Shaw & Fisher, Dent 1939)
700f9a3b883e6a04d018f48290b1a3fd?d=identicon&s=25 de Villamil Frédéric (Guest)
on 2008-07-13 00:06
(Received via mailing list)
> Well, Robert was replying to me; it's my frustration with Typo he's
> addressing.

2 feedbacks are still better than one, thank you for yours

> My first real issue with it is the complexity of its installation,
> and the requirements it imposes if you want to run it on the same
> box with Apache (i.e., the proxying thing with Mongrel). I found
> little in the way of informative installation instructions; mostly I
> saw step-by-step guides that explained nothing beyond "do A, B, and
> C".

There are actually lots of way to run Typo, or any Rails app. Let's
say :
– Apache + mongrel
– Apache + mod_rails (my favourite, and the easiest way imho, just run
mod_rails 1.5 since 1.9 and beyond have issues with the memory). Check
at http://typosphere.org/2007/08/26/install-typo#apac...
– Apache + fastcgi
– Nginx + thin
– Nginx + mongrel
– Lighttpd + thin
– Ligthtpd + mongrel
– Lighttpd + fastcgo

And I may forget some of them.

> But that's a basic architecture thing. The Typo leaders decided to
> build it this way, despite the extra complexity it demands over a
> traditional LAMP-stack-in-a-VHost type deployment. Mileage varies,
> and all that.

The traditionnal LAMP stack implies you're using PHP. Typo is Ruby on
Rails, and  thus, was a bit more difficult to deploy until recently.
Check mod_rails at http://modrails.com, these guys may help you going
to simplicity LAMR-in-a-vhost.

> actual posting mechanism.
It's at the same time a bug AND an absent feature.
– The categories issue has been fixed in the trunk and this will be in
the next release, if not already (I'm damn too much lazy to check now)
– The tags is a missing feature, mostly because the guy who added them
was not blogging using an external client and then didn't think about
them. I myself never used such a client until recently, for debugging
purpose. And guess what, it was for the above point.

> Second, I can't for the life of me figure out how to get my feeds to
> work; see my other posts for more information there.

We've been having lots of cache issues which have been fixed in the
trunk, and the lateste release as well. Try to manually remove your
feed files from public/. It should be articles.rss or articles.atom,
don't know which ones you use. These bugs made me realize I really
should extend our tests coverage.

> Third, it's not at all clear to me how to upgrade. I thought I'd
> done it, but my site still reports an old version number.

It's actually pretty easy. I've always written doc on how to install
Typo, not about how to upgrade it. Another thing added to my TODO list
before the next release. I wish days were 50 hours.

Don't know how you installed typo, but you can just unpack Typo in
your current directory and have it overwrite your old apps files.
Restart your application and run rake db:migrate RAILS_ENV=production
if you're running in production mode (and please, do it, it's VERY
important since you won't be able for that time to access the database
upgrade page in your admin)

> Any help you can give me would be appreciated! I'd prefer to avoid
> WordPress and Moveable Type given what I know about either platform,
> but my frustrations with Typo make staying with it a challenge.

I stopped using wordpress which I was a contributor since the B2 era
for typo because I was so much pissed off with it.
Hope this will, haven't written a so long mail in English for ages,
hope I didn't do too much mistakes

Cheers,
Frédéric

--
Frédéric de Villamil
frederic@de-villamil.com                        tel: +33 (0)6 62 19 1337
http://fredericdevillamil.com             Typo : http://typosphere.org
Ed52c0d47479c25eee49ec92b366d880?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Sanford (Guest)
on 2008-07-15 08:09
(Received via mailing list)
Frederic,

Delivering a patch would imply that I could actually write Ruby code
which I would love to be able to do at some point but my brain is
currently stuck in C#, Java and Python...

Like I said (or hoped to at least imply) in my email I've been
following Typo but haven't actually used it after my first attempt
over a year ago (much has changed). It still intrigues me so I am
writing back. I am hopeful that Typo will continue to improve as it
has over the past year.

The biggest issues that I had involved installation and configuration.
Rails applications a year ago were not well supported in shared
hosting environments which I was using at the time. I know that
progress has been made by Engine Yard and others on this but it isn't
a standard setup. That isn't a Typo issue at all.

The lack of support for client software was a killer. Obviously you've
done quite a bit of work on that.

As you noted in your response to Chet there have been caching issues
which, while recently fixed, have been annoying. There seems (my
current perception which may not be grounded in fact) to be one issue
similar to that every two or three "releases" that get quickly fixed
but affect users.

One thing that seems odd to me is that for what seems to be one of the
top three blog server applications written in Rails (see Mephisto and
Radiant) the level of traffic on the list seems really, really low.
The apparent level of interest makes me take a second look and wonder
why.

Compared to full-blown CMS applications such as Joomla and Drupal the
feature set is pretty small.

Ruby doesn't scale :)

rjsjr
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-15 16:08
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 12, 2008, at 5:02 PM, de Villamil Frédéric wrote:

>> Well, Robert was replying to me; it's my frustration with Typo he's
>> addressing.
>
> 2 feedbacks are still better than one, thank you for yours

Hey, glad to. BTW, I'm gonna go ahead and address this:

> Hope this will, haven't written a so long mail in English for ages,
> hope I didn't do too much mistakes

Your English is very, very good. I don't have any trouble
understanding you.

> – Apache + mod_rails (my favourite, and the easiest way imho, just
> run mod_rails 1.5 since 1.9 and beyond have issues with the memory).
> Check at http://typosphere.org/2007/08/26/install-typo#apac...
> – Apache + fastcgi
> – Nginx + thin
> – Nginx + mongrel
> – Lighttpd + thin
> – Ligthtpd + mongrel
> – Lighttpd + fastcgo
>
> And I may forget some of them.

Well, if there's some great documentation for installing it under
mod_rails, I'd love to see it -- I'll check out the link you provide.
I just didn't find much along those lines when I went to install Typo
initially. Right now, it's on a Slicehost instance with no Apache, but
I'd love to be able to run other stuff under an Apache instance there.

>> But that's a basic architecture thing. The Typo leaders decided to
>> build it this way, despite the extra complexity it demands over a
>> traditional LAMP-stack-in-a-VHost type deployment. Mileage varies,
>> and all that.
>
> The traditionnal LAMP stack implies you're using PHP. Typo is Ruby
> on Rails, and  thus, was a bit more difficult to deploy until
> recently. Check mod_rails at http://modrails.com, these guys may
> help you going to simplicity LAMR-in-a-vhost.

Sure, but "LAMP" has been extended to mean most Linux + Apache + (some
open source DB) + (some interprested language). I've seen stuff with
Perl or Python plus Postgres referred to as "LAMP" b/c the
installation was a simple matter of bringing up another virtual host
under apache and installing the right module. Follow?

Typo is part of a whole different tradition (the Rails world). I don't
fault it just because of that; I just dislike the additional complexity.

> them was not blogging using an external client and then didn't think
> about them. I myself never used such a client until recently, for
> debugging purpose. And guess what, it was for the above point.

So should I expect both of these to get resolved, or no?

>> Second, I can't for the life of me figure out how to get my feeds
>> to work; see my other posts for more information there.
>
> We've been having lots of cache issues which have been fixed in the
> trunk, and the lateste release as well. Try to manually remove your
> feed files from public/. It should be articles.rss or articles.atom,
> don't know which ones you use. These bugs made me realize I really
> should extend our tests coverage.

Well, doing so brought my feeds up to date, but the feed fell behind
again the minute I posted something new -- i.e., new articles don't
show up in the feed, so the problem is still there.

Does Typo not have a 100% dynamic mode?

> RAILS_ENV=production if you're running in production mode (and
> please, do it, it's VERY important since you won't be able for that
> time to access the database upgrade page in your admin)

How can I verify my Typo version?

>> Any help you can give me would be appreciated! I'd prefer to avoid
>> WordPress and Moveable Type given what I know about either
>> platform, but my frustrations with Typo make staying with it a
>> challenge.
>
> I stopped using wordpress which I was a contributor since the B2 era
> for typo because I was so much pissed off with it.

Honestly, the real alternative isn't WP. It's either MT or Drupal.

Chet
----
"An educated public is exactly what they don't want . . . more people
believe in angels than believe in long division." R. Norris 31 May 2006
5180e53611fb542bb83e42ef221943e1?d=identicon&s=25 Michel R Vaillancourt (Guest)
on 2008-07-16 02:17
(Received via mailing list)
Chet Farmer wrote:
>
> Sure, but "LAMP" has been extended to mean most Linux + Apache + (some
> open source DB) + (some interprested language). I've seen stuff with
> Perl or Python plus Postgres referred to as "LAMP" b/c the
> installation was a simple matter of bringing up another virtual host
> under apache and installing the right module. Follow?
>
> Typo is part of a whole different tradition (the Rails world). I don't
> fault it just because of that; I just dislike the additional complexity.
    Hi, Chet.  I'm running Apache2, Ruby on Rails for my blog
(http://blog.jkl5group.com) and honestly, I found the install trivial...

In /etc/apache2/sites-available I have "vhost.jkl5group.com" which
contains:

 - - - - - - -
<VirtualHost x.x.x.x>
  ServerName blog.jkl5group.com

  # Change this to your email address
  ServerAdmin webmaster@jkl5group.com

  # Change these to be valid paths for your host.  The DocumentRoot path
  # isn't very important because we don't actually use it for anything.
  # For security's sake, it's best that it points to an empty directory,
  # but that's not critical.
  DocumentRoot /home/jkl5groupcom/public_html/blog
  ErrorLog /home/jkl5groupcom/webLogs.d/blog_error.log
  CustomLog /home/jkl5groupcom/webLogs.d/blog_access.log combined

  ServerSignature On

  # This is the important part--it sets up proxying.
  ProxyRequests Off
  <Proxy *>
    Order deny,allow
    Allow from all
  </Proxy>

  ProxyPass / http://webhost.mydomain.ca:4820/
  ProxyPassReverse / http://webhost.mydomain.ca:4820/
  ProxyPreserveHost On
</VirtualHost>

 - - - - - - -

In /etc/init.d I have "typo_jkl5blog" which contains:

 - - - - - - -
typo start /home/jkl5groupcom/public_html/jkl5blog
 - - - - - - -

... "It Just Works".  I'm not getting "hundreds of hits per second", of
course, but really, this is working just fine.  Let me know if you need
a bit of info or advice.

--

  --Michel R Vaillancourt
  JKL-5 Telephony Services
  "The center of your telephony service needs"

  Phone:  +1.514.907.9429
  eMail:  support@jkl5group.com
  World Wide Web:  http://www.jkl5group.com/support
E8c366546962a603b831e66bc7798a7d?d=identicon&s=25 Scott Likens (Guest)
on 2008-07-16 05:22
(Received via mailing list)
To whomever it may concern,

I notice the common thread here.  How to deploy typo?

There is many ways to deploy typo, the most common is

1) FastCGI.  (It's also the most murky confusing documentation imo, I
don't blame this on typo, I blame this on FastCGI Documentation and
the people who wrote it).
2) Mongrel/Webrick
3) Phusion Passenger (aka mod_rails?)

Now, there's no real difference with Mongrel/Webrick if you run nginx
or Apache or lighttpd.  It works, it's well documented and takes the
most amount of memory (actually all of them really take the same
amount of memory, you just don't see the ruby process hanging around
using up 140megs of memory).  Phusion Passenger... Excellent option,
if you have a cheap Dreamhost.com account that is going to be your
easiest option, documentation is decent and it's much easier to deploy.

So there you have it, 3 basic methods to deploy your blog.  If your
coding Ruby on Rails chances are this is nothing new to you, and you
have no problem with it.  But those who have come from the "PHP
Boat" (as we'll call it, a/k/a wordpress, etc) they just untar files
into a directory edit a few files, loadup their web browser and bam.
It works.  This is because the company behind PHP has spent a great
deal of time and money at making PHP the dominant language.  It
doesn't make it better, or worse or anything.  (It scales horribly
also for those of you who are talking about scaling).  Let's say you
grab a Perl based blog, what's your common problem?  Well mod_perl,
perl with ithreads enabled.  Yeah you can use it as a cgi script and
have it exec perl on each page/function.  But again, we'll go with it
does not scale well.  We have Python and django, I know have not
touched any of the django software really so I won't go there.

So let's bust out some simple myths,

Rails is hard to deploy, FALSE.  In fact Ruby on Rails Applications
are quite easy to deploy provided your hosting company gives you an
environment where it can deploy sanely.  This is something that DHH
has commented on a few times; there is no way to make the pain of
deploying a Ruby on Rails app on a "bad/cheap hosting server" go
away.  Is that the fault of Ruby on Rails? or the company you chose to
host with?  I'll let you decide on that one.

Rails does not scale, FALSE.  Ruby on Rails does Scale well if the
developers write the application with scaling in mind.  Put the Rails
app behind a Local Traffic Manager, and inject parts of the page to be
pulled from services like Akami and other various things.  Look at
Twitter and other Ruby on Rails based web apps.  Anyone who tells you
that Ruby on Rails is not enterprise ready, lied to you.  Ask for your
money back and tell them to get the heck out of your office.

Any questions? good great.

There is alternatives to Ruby on Rails, such as Merb
(http://www.merbivore.com/
).  You can read the website about it, it's interesting, it's thread-
safe and it's quite exciting.  Which brings me to Featherblog
(http://featherblog.org
).  It's currently a work in progress and is in no way shape or
fashion complete.  However it's extremely fast, and will be more
lightweight.  One of the developers of it (eldiablo)'s web site is
running feather at http://crazycool.co.uk

My single point of this post is that there is great documentation (for
the most part) on how to deploy Typo, or any other Rails app.  I will
freely admit that the last decent version of typo in my personal
opinion was typo 4.1.1.  That whole Rails 2.0 version really jaded me,
and now Rails 2.1 is out.  Makes me more jaded, and is making me walk
away from Rails as a viable option.  They are throwing out more and
more versions, and quite frankly I have not kept up, I need to buy the
new version of Pragmatic Programmers for Rails 2... which is already
out of date as 2.1 is released :(

I think the best thing I can say out of this, is if your having a
problem deploying Typo (or anything else) please file a bug, write an
email, give as much detail as you can.  The more detail the better, so
the developers of typo can find and squash the bugs.  Remember, if you
don't raise your voice, you don't say this is broken; you have failed
the community.  Just as much as you have failed the community if you
fix what is broken, without reporting it and giving a patch so it can
be addressed.  Not everyone is a developer, not everyone can program
ruby on rails.  But Frédéric cannot fix a bug he is not aware of, nor
can Piers.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Scott M. Likens
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-16 08:24
(Received via mailing list)
Look. I like Typo. I'm still trying to use it. But mails like this
just tick me off. They provide no help to speak of while insisting
there is no problem.

Also, proofreading is a good idea.

On Jul 15, 2008, at 10:22 PM, Scott Likens wrote:
> To whomever it may concern,

I reckon that would be me, among others.

> I notice the common thread here.  How to deploy typo?

Why do you think that is?

The choices are:

a) Typo IS hard to deploy; or
b) Typo isn't hard to deploy, but is poorly documented; or
c) Typo isn't hard to deploy, and is well documented, but the
documentation is hard to find; or
d) The people posting this question are all idiots.

Hint: It isn't (d), and (a), (b), and (c) are functionally identical.

> takes the most amount of memory (actually all of them really take
> the same amount of memory, you just don't see the ruby process
> hanging around using up 140megs of memory).

Um, no. It is NOT well documented, or, if it is, those documents are
not easy to find. They're not complete at Typosphere, and they're not
apparent anywhere else I looked. I saw rote, by-the-numbers list dox,
but nothing that explained why I was doing what it said to do, or what
the rationale  was behind Mongrel vs. mod_ruby, or anything an admin
will want to know when making the choices that are part of an
installation. If those docs exist and I somehow missed them, I will
GLEEFULLY accept pointers.

>  Phusion Passenger... Excellent option, if you have a cheap
> Dreamhost.com account that is going to be your easiest option,
> documentation is decent and it's much easier to deploy.

First I've heard of it. Maybe it's a great choice; I have no idea. I
wish I'd known about it when I first started playing with Typo.

> So there you have it, 3 basic methods to deploy your blog.

You say this as though your post constitutes instructions. This is not
the case.

> If your coding Ruby on Rails chances are this is nothing new to you,
> and you have no problem with it.  But those who have come from the
> "PHP Boat" (as we'll call it, a/k/a wordpress, etc) they just untar
> files into a directory edit a few files, loadup their web browser
> and bam.  It works.

Yup. Nice, too. This is, above perhaps all else, why a "bad" language
(PHP) has earned such a dominant market position.

> This is because the company behind PHP has spent a great deal of
> time and money at making PHP the dominant language.

Er, and PHP itself, or  mod_php, or whatever, pretty much Just Works
without installing half a dozen more components, proxies, etc. This
ease of use took effort, it's true, but it also provides nontrivial
value.

> It doesn't make it better, or worse or anything.  (It scales
> horribly also for those of you who are talking about scaling).

Actually, "easy to deploy" DOES earn an app significant points with
pretty much any administrator I know. I consider that "better."

> Let's say you grab a Perl based blog, what's your common problem?
> Well mod_perl, perl with ithreads enabled.  Yeah you can use it as a
> cgi script and have it exec perl on each page/function.  But again,
> we'll go with it does not scale well.  We have Python and django, I
> know have not touched any of the django software really so I won't
> go there.

Do you have a point here?

> So let's bust out some simple myths,
>
> Rails is hard to deploy, FALSE.  In fact Ruby on Rails Applications
> are quite easy to deploy provided your hosting company gives you an
> environment where it can deploy sanely.

Is this a synonym for "provided your hoster does it for you?" Because
I've installed Rails on several different *nixes over the years, and
have *never* found it to be simple to get running in a production
environment (i.e., ignoring quickie dev stacks like Locomotive).

>  This is something that DHH has commented on a few times; there is
> no way to make the pain of deploying a Ruby on Rails app on a "bad/
> cheap hosting server" go away.  Is that the fault of Ruby on Rails?
> or the company you chose to host with?  I'll let you decide on that
> one.

If "application stack A" installs quickly and cleanly, and
"application stack DHH" doesn't, do I care? I'll let you decide on
that one.

Shared hosting does not equal bad hosting. It's totally appropriate
for probably 85-95% of the blogs that exist. Being essentially
incompatible with shared hosting environments is a bad move for Rails,
and DHH saying otherwise doesn't make it so. Being hard to get running
in a hosted environment makes Ruby on Rails less appealing, and
therefore hurts Typo.

> Rails does not scale, FALSE.

I wager "scaling" matters to virtually zero Typo installations. It's
too unfinished to support a high traffic blog.

As for Rails itself, I don't care. It's not on my professional radar
for several reasons. It might be someday.

> Look at Twitter

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

> and other Ruby on Rails based web apps.  Anyone who tells you that
> Ruby on Rails is not enterprise ready, lied to you.  Ask for your
> money back and tell them to get the heck out of your office.

I smell a fanboy.

> My single point of this post is that there is great documentation
> (for the most part) on how to deploy Typo, or any other Rails app.

Too bad you didn't see fit to provide links to any of it here.

>  I will freely admit that the last decent version of typo in my
> personal opinion was typo 4.1.1.  That whole Rails 2.0 version
> really jaded me, and now Rails 2.1 is out.  Makes me more jaded, and
> is making me walk away from Rails as a viable option.

Wow. Just wow. Now we get to the Typo portion of your post, and you
tell me the current revision isn't as good as 4.1.1. This is really
helpful.

Not.

> I think the best thing I can say out of this, is if your having a
> problem deploying Typo (or anything else) please file a bug, write
> an email, give as much detail as you can.  The more detail the
> better, so the developers of typo can find and squash the bugs.

This list is so low traffic as to be mistaken for dead. There's not
much in terms of Typo discussion anywhere else I can find (the name
collision with Typo3 doesn't help; I don't know whose fault that is).

> Remember, if you don't raise your voice, you don't say this is
> broken; you have failed the community.  Just as much as you have
> failed the community if you fix what is broken, without reporting it
> and giving a patch so it can be addressed.  Not everyone is a
> developer, not everyone can program ruby on rails.  But Frédéric
> cannot fix a bug he is not aware of, nor can Piers.

I don't anyone is likely, ever, to accuse me of suffering in silence.
I've been clear from the get-go that, while I find Typo overly complex
to install, I *got past that part* and that my main problems now are
functionality and bugs with the system.

Frederic has, of late, responded fairly quickly to some of my messages
-- but Typo itself is still essentially broken on some serious points
(editor support and feed updates come to mind). That's frustrating,
and it's frustration that piles on top of the leftover annoyances
associated with Typo's installation problems.

I want to use Typo. I really do. I'm not a naive noob. But it's not
perfect, and neither is Rails.


Chet
~~~
... the early dawn cracks out a carpet of diamond
Across a cash crop car lot filled with twilight Coupe Devilles,
Leaving the town in the keeping
Of the one who is sweeping
Up the ghosts of Saturday night...

Tom Waits.
Dc893c4b153a985de7f6b7088d2207c8?d=identicon&s=25 Rodger Donaldson (Guest)
on 2008-07-16 09:35
(Received via mailing list)
Chet Farmer wrote:
>> Now, there's no real difference with Mongrel/Webrick if you run nginx
>> or Apache or lighttpd.  It works, it's well documented and takes the
>> most amount of memory (actually all of them really take the same
>> amount of memory, you just don't see the ruby process hanging around
>> using up 140megs of memory).
>
> Um, no. It is NOT well documented, or, if it is, those documents are not
> easy to find.

I'll certainly agree with that.  Getting mongrel working with mod_proxy
was essentially an exercise in Google and reading blogs.

>> It doesn't make it better, or worse or anything.  (It scales horribly
>> also for those of you who are talking about scaling).
>
> Actually, "easy to deploy" DOES earn an app significant points with
> pretty much any administrator I know. I consider that "better."

Yes.  And, frankly, Ruby + gems on most Linux distros is in such a state
that I end up maintaining my own Ruby install from source.  Given the
pain of the recent security holes (for example), I find that this is
actually driving me to think I should can it and go for the same suite
of PHP apps as everyone else.
E8c366546962a603b831e66bc7798a7d?d=identicon&s=25 Scott Likens (Guest)
on 2008-07-16 13:12
(Received via mailing list)
Chet,

Which portion of the documentation needs to be revised? FastCGI?
Mongrel? I suppose someone can whip up some instructions on how to
make the config.ru for Passenger if need be.  Typo is imo extremely
easy to deploy and get up in running in under 5 minutes.  If your
having a problem deploying typo please elaborate and tell us what the
problem is with you deploying Typo so we can help you deploy it?  I
can read over old e-mails however that does not always constitute the
current situation.  Specifics are excellent, like are you using Apache
2.0? 2.2? 1.3?  How are you attempting to deploy it via FastCGI?
Mongrel?

As far as Phusion Passenger (http://www.modrails.com/) it's actually
if you look at their site they even have tested Typo with it
(http://www.modrails.com/documentation.html
).

Ideally, one would like to use Swiftiply (Mongrel with some added
performance), but that's not here nor there.

In typo 4.1.1 (I won't reference a recent version because I don't have
one installed currently) there is typo/installer and inside there is
examples for apache13 apache20 (which works for 22) and lighttpd
(fastcgi).  For the most part you should just have to Copy & Paste,
modify the small things and go.

But I will leave the question open here,

How can we help you deploy Typo? be as specific as possible.
E8c366546962a603b831e66bc7798a7d?d=identicon&s=25 Scott Likens (Guest)
on 2008-07-16 13:31
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 12:14 AM, Rodger Donaldson wrote:

> mod_proxy was essentially an exercise in Google and reading blogs.
Why is mod_proxy working with mongrel such an exercise?

  <Proxy *>
     Order deny,allow
     Allow from all
   </Proxy>

   ProxyPass / http://localhost:4485
   ProxyPassReverse / http://localhost:4485
   ProxyPreserveHost On

That's it as a whole, 7 whole lines.  Add that to your apache
configuration in a Virtualhost area for your blog and startup typo and
you should be golden.

>>> It doesn't make it better, or worse or anything.  (It scales
>>> horribly also for those of you who are talking about scaling).
>> Actually, "easy to deploy" DOES earn an app significant points with
>> pretty much any administrator I know. I consider that "better."
>
> Yes.  And, frankly, Ruby + gems on most Linux distros is in such a
> state that I end up maintaining my own Ruby install from source.
> Given the pain of the recent security holes (for example), I find
> that this is actually driving me to think I should can it and go for
> the same suite of PHP apps as everyone else.

I will agree with that, as Debian Etch currently has Ruby 1.8.4(2? i
forget) with Rubygems 0.92.  However is that Ruby's problem? or the
Linux distribution you chose?  If they are willing to give you that
old of Ruby, what makes you think the PHP is any more recent?

... Now I agree they should update that to at least 1.8.6, and
Rubygems 1.2.0, however they have their release cycle and unless it's
a critical security fix you will never get it until the next release.
Ubuntu's way of handling Ruby is quite odd to say the least.  I tried
CentOS 5 out of the box, got Warehouseapp running for a customer in a
matter of minutes however.  yum worked perfectly for me, and I had 0
issues with it. I've tried Gentoo and it's worked excellent also, so
perhaps some research is in order?
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-16 15:43
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 6:10 AM, Scott Likens wrote:
>>
>> I'll certainly agree with that.  Getting mongrel working with
>> mod_proxy was essentially an exercise in Google and reading blogs.
>
> Why is mod_proxy working with mongrel such an exercise?

Beats me. Perhaps you should refer to the first portion of my reply to
you last night.

It's clearly a problem, though. It's also a problem that the purpose
of Mongrel isn't made clear; you just have to take on faith that it's
something you need to do based on the sketchy installation guide.

>> Yes.  And, frankly, Ruby + gems on most Linux distros is in such a
>> state that I end up maintaining my own Ruby install from source.
>> Given the pain of the recent security holes (for example), I find
>> that this is actually driving me to think I should can it and go
>> for the same suite of PHP apps as everyone else.
>
> I will agree with that, as Debian Etch currently has Ruby 1.8.4(2? i
> forget) with Rubygems 0.92.  However is that Ruby's problem? or the
> Linux distribution you chose?

It's definitely Ruby's problem if PHP, Perl, Python, etc., are all
running fine out of the box.

Here, you're defaulting back to a knee-jerk defense of what is clearly
your pet language. That has no place here. Compared to LAMP-stack
stuff, RoR applications are much harder to set up and deploy. They
require a totally different approach, and that approach is very poorly
documented. This isn't a controversial statement.




---
"Don't let your mongoose get cold or dirty, or it will die."
(Animals as Friends and How to Keep Them, by Shaw & Fisher, Dent 1939)
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-16 15:45
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 6:04 AM, Scott Likens wrote:
> Which portion of the documentation needs to be revised? FastCGI?
> Mongrel?

Honestly, all of it. I know that's a broad answer, but it's the truth.
Compare the installation experience of a LAMP stack tool to Typo's and
you'll see the huge gap.

In particular, deeper descriptions of why Mongrel needs to be
involved, what the alternatives to a Mongrel configuration are, and
why one might choose one approach over the other are ALL questions
that need to be addressed. I made that clear in my prior post.

> Typo is imo extremely easy to deploy and get up in running in under
> 5 minutes.

Here, you're just plain wrong.

>  If your having a problem deploying typo please elaborate and tell
> us what the problem is with you deploying Typo so we can help you
> deploy it?

I had problems getting mine to run, that's certainly true. But at this
point my Typo runs (just not in the way I really want it do; the
machine can't also run Apache -- as, again, I've made clear before).

My issues are bugs in Typo. If I can't get those bugs resolved, Typo's
quirky and difficult installation issues will become academic, as I'll
have to migrate to something else. The important bugs to ME are:

-- my feeds do not dynamically update. They get created when first
requested, but are then frozen in amber.

-- Typo does not work properly with MarsEdit or other stand-alone
editors. This is a show-stopper for me.

I also have some other outstanding questions regarding updating my
Typo, and verifying the version I have, but those are in another mail
I posted early yesterday, I believe, and are part of a dialog with
Frederic.

- How do I verify what version of Typo I have?
- How is it best to upgrade Typo? What specific steps should be taken,
and why?


---
"They say no mortal woman was enough for him so he made one himself
outta whiskey an liquors an ale," says me. "An he loved her like a
lumberjack made of eating loves a woman made of ham." (Fafblog
2004-08-05)
700f9a3b883e6a04d018f48290b1a3fd?d=identicon&s=25 de Villamil Frédéric (Guest)
on 2008-07-16 20:42
(Received via mailing list)
Le 16 juil. 08 à 15:43, Chet Farmer a écrit :

> involved, what the alternatives to a Mongrel configuration are, and
>> deploy it?
>
> - How do I verify what version of Typo I have?
> - How is it best to upgrade Typo? What specific steps should be
> taken, and why?
>
>
> ---
> "They say no mortal woman was enough for him so he made one himself
> outta whiskey an liquors an ale," says me. "An he loved her like a
> lumberjack made of eating loves a woman made of ham." (Fafblog
> 2004-08-05)
>

Hi,

First, sorry if I took the day replying to you, I couldn't reach my
email before. I'll try to be quick because I have to finish the next
stable version I plan to release next sunday.

– The lack of Typo doc :
This thread just made me realize we don't have any documentation about
upgrading Typo. This needs to be written and added both on the website
and a static UPGRADE file coming along with Typo. I'll try to do this
tonight if I don t fall asleep, I really had a hard day. I'll aso
complete the existing install docs and make clearer how to access the
on the website. They are a little bit confusing and not clear enough.
I someone wants to proofread, he will be welcomed. Remember English is
not my mother's language.

I think the lack of install docs come from my 3 weak points :
. There are lots of docs that teach to install a Rails app along the
web, but they are not dedicated to Typo.
. I've been doing sysadmin for 10 years now, so I don't find this
diffucult at all, and c/p some configuration file is generally enough
to me.
. I'm not very good at writing English while having writen many docs
about Typo install in French.

– The mars edit bugs :
They've been fixed in the trunk last week. I now need to find out how
I can add tags and everything will be OK. The reason why it was
brocken was easy : I had never used desktop clients until 2 weeks ago,
when I started to close bugs.

– The caching bugs :
Almost all of them were fixed in the 5.0.4b2, the remaining ones were
fixed in trunk. I'm going to do extensive caching tests before
releasing to see if everything is OK. I really don't like maintaining
2 caches modes, but Piers Cawley, my co maintener, really want to do so.

BTW, I must disagree with Typo not being able to handle a large trafic
blog. Since it serves static HTML files, it's not a problem at all.
I've been doing some tests on 1.000.000 pages view / day with a
comment (and so cache sweeping) every 5 minutes, and my server handled
it very well. Even a bit more than a Wordpress blog since Wordpress
cache doesn't serve static HTML files and needs to call some PHP to
know what it need to serve.

– For Scott questions :
. Typo version is the footer of your admin page, and this information
comes from lib/typo_version.rb
. It depends on how you run it. My favourite methode is just overwrite
Typo files, restart the application and rake RAILS_ENV=production
db:migrate. If you're running the installer, update your Typo gem, and
then typo upgrade some/path, then restart and rake. This question just
made me want to add an upgrade form where you can just upload typo-
some-version.tar.gz which will unpack itself in your RAILS root.

– For the next week :
There is a few things I want to do before releasing. If someone has a
few hours to help, this will be greatly appreciated.
. write (or proofread) install / upgrade doc
. add tags support on desktop client api
. add a nice form for our import from another blogware plugin, better
than command line.
. fix bugs
. finish to work on Typogarden with Damien, who now controls it.
. update language files for translators
. add maybe add 1-2 nice features I have in mind.

Hope this have helped
Cheers
Frédéric

--
Frédéric de Villamil
frederic@de-villamil.com                        tel: +33 (0)6 62 19 1337
http://fredericdevillamil.com             Typo : http://typosphere.org
Dc893c4b153a985de7f6b7088d2207c8?d=identicon&s=25 Rodger Donaldson (Guest)
on 2008-07-16 21:23
(Received via mailing list)
Chet Farmer wrote:
>
> On Jul 16, 2008, at 6:10 AM, Scott Likens wrote:
>>>
>>> I'll certainly agree with that.  Getting mongrel working with
>>> mod_proxy was essentially an exercise in Google and reading blogs.
>>
>> Why is mod_proxy working with mongrel such an exercise?
>
> Beats me. Perhaps you should refer to the first portion of my reply to
> you last night.

Explanation by analogy would be helpful; "Mogrel fills a role similar to
that of Tomcat for JSP applications" would be a good starting point for
most people with experience with web apps.

The best explanations of how to make it all hang together well I found
were at

http://blog.codahale.com/2006/06/19/time-for-a-gro...,

http://jonathan.tron.name/2006/07/26/apache-2-0-x-...

but one of those is talking about another Rails blog tool, of course.

This would require Typosphere to be online and updated from time to
time.

> It's definitely Ruby's problem if PHP, Perl, Python, etc., are all
> running fine out of the box.

It is a problem with Ruby & Gems specifically that Gems don't integrate
as smoothly as extending Perl with non-packaged CPAN modules does on
major Linux distros.
Dc893c4b153a985de7f6b7088d2207c8?d=identicon&s=25 Rodger Donaldson (Guest)
on 2008-07-16 21:28
(Received via mailing list)
Scott Likens wrote:
>>> not easy to find.
>>
>> I'll certainly agree with that.  Getting mongrel working with
>> mod_proxy was essentially an exercise in Google and reading blogs.
>
> Why is mod_proxy working with mongrel such an exercise?
>
>
> That's it as a whole, 7 whole lines.  Add that to your apache
> configuration in a Virtualhost area for your blog and startup typo and
> you should be golden.

At which point you wonder why everything is running so slow, and you
discover that mongrel really, really sucks at delivering image files and
the like.  So your 7 line example works if you want horrible performance
with even a trivial number of users.

> I've tried Gentoo and it's worked excellent also, so perhaps some research is
> in order?

Actually, I've used Ruby on a number of the Linux problems, and the
interaction of Gems and Ruby is a problem on all of them.  A snide and
condescendng tone does not change this fact, it merely convinces people
they don't want to bother using typo.
E8c366546962a603b831e66bc7798a7d?d=identicon&s=25 Scott Likens (Guest)
on 2008-07-16 23:30
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Rodger Donaldson wrote:

>> Why is mod_proxy working with mongrel such an exercise?
>> That's it as a whole, 7 whole lines.  Add that to your apache
>> configuration in a Virtualhost area for your blog and startup typo
>> and you should be golden.
> At which point you wonder why everything is running so slow, and you
> discover that mongrel really, really sucks at delivering image files
> and the like.  So your 7 line example works if you want horrible
> performance with even a trivial number of users.

I absolutely agree.  Mongrel does suck for delivering images, however
that is part of scaling and proper design.  If you use Swiftiply it
does take some of the pain away, but Mongrel has certain problems (or
should I say rails really?) images, uploading images... bone jarring
pain.  If you have let's say a gallery, and you want it to send 80
thumbnails to a user.  Well that's just inefficient when you can have
Apache or whatever web server you have handle the images in 1/32nd of
the time.  FastCGI really does not make that pain go away, it's
usually easier to host your images on apache and have your 'rails app'
reflect where the images are to be pulled.  Lessens the amount of
requests per second to Mongrel(or whatever you use) which can make
your web app smoother as well as allows other users to take up the
requests that the images were sucking up.

>> I've tried Gentoo and it's worked excellent also, so perhaps some
>> research is in order?
>
> Actually, I've used Ruby on a number of the Linux problems, and the
> interaction of Gems and Ruby is a problem on all of them.  A snide
> and condescendng tone does not change this fact, it merely convinces
> people they don't want to bother using typo.

That would be a side effect, some call it 'maturity', I prefer to
consider it stagnation.  It's been many years since there was a major
Perl version release.  When Perl6 starts coming in Linux Distributions
you'll feel the same exact pain as you do for Ruby.  I like to call
this side effect "People telling you what to run, how to run it, and
what version to run".  I dislike that side effect because if you want
to run your own version it becomes painful (even for Systems
Administrators it's painful) and after a certain point you  have to
decide when it's too much and you need a change so you don't have to
keep doing this.

I disagree that it's a typo issue really, the issues you are feeling
are more Ruby issues and Ruby on Rails, not Typo.  You can ask Someone
to update this and update that and make Ruby a better experience, but
if they don't give a damn to do that ... There's not much to do.  I
consider that one of the pains of running a Binary Distribution.  They
attempt to lock you into what they offer you, and make it a hassle to
go beyond that.
E8c366546962a603b831e66bc7798a7d?d=identicon&s=25 Scott Likens (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 00:25
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 6:38 AM, Chet Farmer wrote:

> Beats me. Perhaps you should refer to the first portion of my reply
> to you last night.
>
> It's clearly a problem, though. It's also a problem that the purpose
> of Mongrel isn't made clear; you just have to take on faith that
> it's something you need to do based on the sketchy installation guide.

After reading your posts I'm not sure if you are using Debian, or
what... however Here's a few articles courtesy of the folks at mongrel.

http://mongrel.rubyforge.org/wiki/Debian
http://mongrel.rubyforge.org/wiki/OSX
http://mongrel.rubyforge.org/wiki/Lighttpd

(Formatting seems to be off on the last 2) however you get the idea.

> It's definitely Ruby's problem if PHP, Perl, Python, etc., are all
> running fine out of the box.
>
> Here, you're defaulting back to a knee-jerk defense of what is
> clearly your pet language. That has no place here. Compared to LAMP-
> stack stuff, RoR applications are much harder to set up and deploy.
> They require a totally different approach, and that approach is very
> poorly documented. This isn't a controversial statement.

Do  you have the latest version of Python 2.5? what if you want to
deploy a Django application that requires Python 2.5? and some feature
that was not included in your build of python.  knee-jerk defense
about Perl... it hasn't been updated in 2years? So let's disclude that
from the discussion.  If your Linux distribution is running an version
older then 5.8.4 (current is 5.8.8) you should be pretty much shot.

Unfortunately things change rapidly, things are updated, bug fixes
made.  Some Linux distributions run on a 6-month Release Cycle, so in
6-months they play catchup and update all the things that they can.
They miss somethings, however that's not here nor there.  My knee-jerk
solution is if LAMP is so easy to deploy, then why not use it? or why
not use Perl or Python?

I admit I love the beauty of the Ruby Language, however if there's
something out there that does the same job as Typo and is easier to
deploy and works "better" then I say go ahead.

It's unfortunate that MarsEdit was one of your Hanging Chads... I
never got around to buying a License of MarsEdit, I just couldn't be
bothered with it, I would rather write in TextMate and then copy and
paste.

However one of my long standing issues with Typo has been ... *drum
roll* how I have to insert <br>'s into my posts because I included a
html tag, and somehow it broke the whole mess.  So either I can have
badly formatted posts that look worse then my emails ... or I can
force a line break every here and there so make it look cleaner.

I do admit though that Frédéric responded slow on the Typo 5.0 Beta
(Rails 2) release to my dismay, I lost my typo install twice due to a
cache error, and it took several more people to have the same problem
before it was even brought up.  But overall he try's and that's what
counts.
E8c366546962a603b831e66bc7798a7d?d=identicon&s=25 Scott Likens (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 00:41
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 6:43 AM, Chet Farmer wrote:

> involved, what the alternatives to a Mongrel configuration are, and
> why one might choose one approach over the other are ALL questions
> that need to be addressed. I made that clear in my prior post.

We are comparing an Apple to a Pear, LAMP is not the same as LAMR or a
Ruby on Rails install.  Please stop comparing it, you are doing
nothing useful by doing that.

What is mongrel? Let's see here if this quote satisfy's you.

"Mongrel is a small library that provides a very fast HTTP 1.1 server
for Ruby web applications. It is not particular to any framework, and
is intended to be just enough to get a web application running behind
a more complete and robust web server.

What makes Mongrel so fast is the careful use of an Ragel extension to
provide fast, accurate HTTP 1.1 protocol parsing. This makes the
server scream without too many portability issues.

See mongrel.rubyforge.org for more information. "

A bit technical, but Mongrel is a Web Server.  Like Apache, or nginx
or lighttpd.  Except that all it cares about and knows about is the
application in which it is running.  Technically you can run it on
port 80 (if you run it as root) and remove the whole extra web server
from the equation.  Mongrel is for Ruby what mod_php is for Rails (bad
analogy).  It does all the dirty work and forwards the end product to
Apache and then to the end-user.  You can compare it to Tomcat or
Jetty I guess, however that's not here nor there.

> this point my Typo runs (just not in the way I really want it do;
>
> -- Typo does not work properly with MarsEdit or other stand-alone
> editors. This is a show-stopper for me.
> I also have some other outstanding questions regarding updating my
> Typo, and verifying the version I have, but those are in another
> mail I posted early yesterday, I believe, and are part of a dialog
> with Frederic.
>
> - How do I verify what version of Typo I have?
> - How is it best to upgrade Typo? What specific steps should be
> taken, and why?


Frédéric has pretty much gone into the other problems you addressed.

However, the best method of updating/upgrading typo depends on the
backend.

Let's say you use SQLite3

1) backup your databases in db/ to a separate location
2) unarchive the new version of typo in a separate directory (for
staging or testing purposes).
3) copy the backed up databases (do not move them, we want to keep a
pristine copy still somewhere) to db/
4) verify you are using the proper environment (e.g. PRODUCTION /
DEVELOPMENT ...) and then run rake db:migrate
5) start typo on a different port then the original typo is running on.
6) Browse to the site by ip:port and verify if everything worked as
planned, and if it did not discuss how it did not work properly, and
if it did work how it can work easier.

... Now let's say you use MySQL.

1) mysqldump your typo database for backup purposes.
2) mysqlhotcopy -u root -p typo typo2
3) fixup the grants if need be so your typo login can see typo2 (if
you use the root account for typo you can skip this step)
4) unarchive the new version of typo, and setup database.yml to see
typo2 and the proper credentials and settings.
5) rake db:migrate
6) start typo on a different port and test it out.

Of course you'll have to reinstall your plugins and themes.  I believe
as a standard practice it's best to set the theme to default and
disable your plugins before you do the backup.  I don't know if
Frédéric has resolved the technical details of plugins missing and
themes missing and having to goto the admin interface and fix it, or
delve into the MySQL database and disable plugins that way.

But that's a pretty short write-up.
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-17 00:48
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 5:38 PM, Scott Likens wrote:
> a Ruby on Rails install.  Please stop comparing it, you are doing
> nothing useful by doing that.

Are you really saying you can't compare a Ruby app with a LAMP app?
That's ridiculous. How else can someone decide between Typo and MT and
WP and etc?

No, you're just wrong. It makes PERFECT sense to compare the
experience of setting up and using Application X with that of using
Application Y if both X and Y are competitors in the same market
(i.e., blogging software).

>
> See mongrel.rubyforge.org for more information. "
>
> A bit technical, but Mongrel is a Web Server.  Like Apache, or nginx
> or lighttpd.  Except that all it cares about and knows about is the
> application in which it is running.  Technically you can run it on
> port 80 (if you run it as root) and remove the whole extra web
> server from the equation.  Mongrel is for Ruby what mod_php is for
> Rails (bad analogy).  It does all the dirty work and forwards the
> end product to Apache and then to the end-user.  You can compare it
> to Tomcat or Jetty I guess, however that's not here nor there.

Why on earth would you need to run a second web server? That seems
like a really bad idea, frankly, hence my annoyance that the most
obvious question (which boils down to "WTF?", essentially)  isn't
addressed.

> 3) copy the backed up databases (do not move them, we want to keep a
> pristine copy still somewhere) to db/
> 4) verify you are using the proper environment (e.g. PRODUCTION /
> DEVELOPMENT ...) and then run rake db:migrate

What does rake do in this context?

> 5) start typo on a different port then the original typo is running
> on.
> 6) Browse to the site by ip:port and verify if everything worked as
> planned, and if it did not discuss how it did not work properly, and
> if it did work how it can work easier.
>
> Of course you'll have to reinstall your plugins and themes.

!!!!

To put it mildly, that's a bit bizarre and very unfriendly to the user.

> I believe as a standard practice

Maybe for Typo. Not for anything else I use.

Chet Farmer
----
"When you've got an RV, a jet pack, and a monkey you really don't need
much actual content"  - KS
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-17 00:49
(Received via mailing list)
Scott,

You persist in answering questions that I'm not asking. At this point,
I won't give a damn about Typo deployment again until some time
*after* the bug fixes I require are deployed, if then.

Your ongoing insistence that Typo/Ruby IS TOO! easy to set up and run
is, well, tiresome. Please stop.

> disclude that from the discussion.  If your Linux distribution is
> running an version older then 5.8.4 (current is 5.8.8) you should be
> pretty much shot.

Whatever.

> Unfortunately things change rapidly, things are updated, bug fixes
> made.  Some Linux distributions run on a 6-month Release Cycle, so
> in 6-months they play catchup and update all the things that they
> can.  They miss somethings, however that's not here nor there.  My
> knee-jerk solution is if LAMP is so easy to deploy, then why not use
> it? or why not use Perl or Python?

Seriously? You're going there? "If (other thing) is so much better,
just USE IT!" Do you not realize how petulant that sounds? Are you
going to take your ball and go home now?

> It's unfortunate that MarsEdit was one of your Hanging Chads... I
> never got around to buying a License of MarsEdit, I just couldn't be
> bothered with it, I would rather write in TextMate and then copy and
> paste.

Post-from-local-client is a core requirement for me. Cut and paste is
for the birds. With Blosxom, I wrote in TextMate and saved. That's it.
A cron'd rsync did my posting for me. With proper support for the XML-
PRC stuff, I can do that again with Typo; it works with WP and MT just
fine via anything that supports that interface, including MarsEdit and
TextMate via the blogging bundle.

> However one of my long standing issues with Typo has been ... *drum
> roll* how I have to insert <br>'s into my posts because I included a
> html tag, and somehow it broke the whole mess.  So either I can have
> badly formatted posts that look worse then my emails ... or I can
> force a line break every here and there so make it look cleaner.

There are lots of ways to solve this. I post in Markdown.

> I do admit though that Frédéric responded slow on the Typo 5.0 Beta
> (Rails 2) release to my dismay, I lost my typo install twice due to
> a cache error, and it took several more people to have the same
> problem before it was even brought up.  But overall he try's and
> that's what counts.

Try that statement at work and see how far you get.

Don't get me wrong; I appreciate  Frederic's answers very much -- and,
not to put too fine a point on it, his English is better than yours --
but eventually I'll make a choice based on function and support, not
how hard the maintainers are trying.

---
"They say no mortal woman was enough for him so he made one himself
outta whiskey an liquors an ale," says me. "An he loved her like a
lumberjack made of eating loves a woman made of ham." (Fafblog
2004-08-05)
5f9c010866ed7b4ceff994510de2ef8c?d=identicon&s=25 Jaroslaw Zabiello (jzabiello)
on 2008-07-17 02:16
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 4:22 AM, Scott Likens <damm@livid.dk> wrote:

> To whomever it may concern,
> I notice the common thread here.  How to deploy typo?
>
> There is many ways to deploy typo, the most common is
> 1) FastCGI.

We all know, it sucks.

> 2) Mongrel/Webrick

Nginx with proxy load balancer to cluster of Thin/Ebb (+unix socket)
processes is a much faster.

> 3) Phusion Passenger (aka mod_rails?)

This is the best option. Fast and dead brain simple to deploy (just like
PHP).

> Now, there's no real difference with Mongrel/Webrick

Mongrel is much faster than Webrick. Thin is faster than Mongrel, and
Ebb is faster than Mongrel or Thin.

>  But those who have come from the "PHP Boat" (as we'll call
> it, a/k/a wordpress, etc) they just untar files into a directory edit a few
> files, loadup their web browser and bam.  It works.

Phusion mod_passenger  (http://www.modrails.com/) works in the very
same way. Just copy your files, load web browser and bam. It works.
Need to reload application? No problem. Create empty restart.txt file
in the tmp folder. Apache will reload the application. No need to
restart Apache. No SSH needed. Simple FTP access is all you need.
mod_passenger works also with others  Ruby frameworks which use
Rack,e.g. Merb. It even works also with Python... :)

You also forget mention Ruby Enterprise version which uses 33% less
memory... It works fine with mod_passenger and lowers the memory
footprint. http://www.rubyenterpriseedition.com/

mod_passenger is _the easiest option_  for deployment Rails
applications (including Typo).

But, there is also another, 4-th deploy option: JRuby. It is also
brain dead simple to deploy. Just create WAR file and copy it into
webapps Tomcat's folder. That's all!

sudo jruby -S gem install warbler, activerecord-jdbc-adapter
jruby -S rails my_app

For developing use: jruby script/server; jruby script/console etc.

For production, just create  ROOT.war file (with "warble war" command)
and copy it into webapps folder in Tomcat, Jetty or another Java
servlets container. This WAR file contains ALL gems (including JRuby
interpreter) so it works fine in all platforms.
E8c366546962a603b831e66bc7798a7d?d=identicon&s=25 Scott Likens (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 02:17
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 3:47 PM, Chet Farmer wrote:

> Application Y if both X and Y are competitors in the same market
> (i.e., blogging software).

As I said above, you are doing nothing useful in this argument.  Stop
it.  If you care that much passionately, then run Wordpress.  The
argument is self defeating, because you are comparing apples to
pears.  You can try this argument on a Django list and see how far you
get.

>>
>> there.
>
> Why on earth would you need to run a second web server? That seems
> like a really bad idea, frankly, hence my annoyance that the most
> obvious question (which boils down to "WTF?", essentially)  isn't
> addressed.

Then I suggest you to take that torch up with the Mongrel Mailing list
and ask them.

>> staging or testing purposes).
>> 3) copy the backed up databases (do not move them, we want to keep
>> a pristine copy still somewhere) to db/
>> 4) verify you are using the proper environment (e.g. PRODUCTION /
>> DEVELOPMENT ...) and then run rake db:migrate
>
> What does rake do in this context?

Migrations.

To Quote from
http://wiki.rubyonrails.org/rails/pages/Understand...

"ActiveRecordMigration allows you to use Ruby to define changes to
your database schema, making it possible to use a version control
system to keep things synchronized with the actual code.
This has many uses, including:

     * Teams of developers – if one person makes a schema change, the
other developers just need to update, and run “rake db:migrate”.
     * Production servers – run “rake db:migrate” when you roll out a
new release to bring the database up to date as well.
     * Multiple machines – if you develop on both a desktop and a
laptop, or in more than one location, migrations can help you keep
them all synchronized."

In essence, your database has a 'version' number in it, and if someone
adds a new model, or changes a model a migration is also made.  So
that you can run 'rake db:migrate' to ensure your database is "up to
date" and able to do what the new version intends to do.

>
> To put it mildly, that's a bit bizarre and very unfriendly to the
> user.

With the exception of plugins and themes, I find the upgrade process
very relaxing and totally capable.  Very straight forward, and easy to
do.  You can stage an upgrade painlessly and if there's a problem you
have not affected your actual blog in any way what so ever.

>> I believe as a standard practice
>
> Maybe for Typo. Not for anything else I use.

Remind me not to hire you as a Systems Administrator.  You should
ALWAYS make a backup, upgrade in a an test environment and verify
everything  happened properly before you roll out the new version.
Now I realize that isn't as "Cowboy" as say Wordpress, where you just
slap in the new version and it might upgrade your database and off you
go.  But when things FAIL and they always do (see Murphy's Law) it's
better to have a backup on hand, and be able to recover from it.  Then
fall flat on your ass and then resort to emailing someone saying "WTF
HOW DO I FIX THIS?"

Not to mention that is part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Compliance Matrix
(http://www.crcdataprotection.com/solutions/sox_com...
)

It's always a good idea to have a backup handy, and there is a
wonderful list of things you have to do "to be Fully Sox-
Compliant" ... I only mention this because some of these should be a
daily business practice for some people.  It would make their life
easier.
E8c366546962a603b831e66bc7798a7d?d=identicon&s=25 Scott Likens (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 02:18
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 3:36 PM, Chet Farmer wrote:

>> Unfortunately things change rapidly, things are updated, bug fixes
>> made.  Some Linux distributions run on a 6-month Release Cycle, so
>> in 6-months they play catchup and update all the things that they
>> can.  They miss somethings, however that's not here nor there.  My
>> knee-jerk solution is if LAMP is so easy to deploy, then why not
>> use it? or why not use Perl or Python?
>
> Seriously? You're going there? "If (other thing) is so much better,
> just USE IT!" Do you not realize how petulant that sounds? Are you
> going to take your ball and go home now?

It's not my ball, it's everyone else's ball.  I do not suffer the
problem of a 6-month release cycle, or how painful Ruby on Rails is to
deploy.  I realize I don't see your pain, so perhaps if you could
actually write up a way we could make this easier for you?  Because
clearly I don't get it, and won't get it.  So instead of venting your
frustration the way you are, please educate us.

> including MarsEdit and TextMate via the blogging bundle.
Sounds like an excellent feature to be proposed for Typo then.  The
proper XML-RPC Support so you can post from TextMate.

>> However one of my long standing issues with Typo has been ... *drum
>> roll* how I have to insert <br>'s into my posts because I included
>> a html tag, and somehow it broke the whole mess.  So either I can
>> have badly formatted posts that look worse then my emails ... or I
>> can force a line break every here and there so make it look cleaner.
>
> There are lots of ways to solve this. I post in Markdown.

I use Textile and I guess that's why I have that problem.

> yours -- but eventually I'll make a choice based on function and
> support, not how hard the maintainers are trying.

Then I will stop bothering now, because it's clear that I am wasting
my time.
E8c366546962a603b831e66bc7798a7d?d=identicon&s=25 Scott Likens (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 02:24
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 5:09 PM, JZ wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 4:22 AM, Scott Likens <damm@livid.dk> wrote:
>
>> To whomever it may concern,
>> I notice the common thread here.  How to deploy typo?
>>
>> There is many ways to deploy typo, the most common is
>> 1) FastCGI.
>
> We all know, it sucks.

It sucks, but "it takes less memory" to quote someone I know who uses
Lighttpd + FastCGI.  His rather old RSS Reading application took 250
Megabytes of memory, for which is "not there" in FastCGI Mode.

>> 2) Mongrel/Webrick
>
> Nginx with proxy load balancer to cluster of Thin/Ebb (+unix socket)
> processes is a much faster.

If thin supported Streaming (Not Media, but the Mongrel Extension) it
would be something I would have no issue using.  I've mentioned that
to the author of Thin and we'll see how that goes.

>> But those who have come from the "PHP Boat" (as we'll call
> Rack,e.g. Merb. It even works also with Python... :)
> webapps Tomcat's folder. That's all!
>
> sudo jruby -S gem install warbler, activerecord-jdbc-adapter
> jruby -S rails my_app
>
> For developing use: jruby script/server; jruby script/console etc.
>
> For production, just create  ROOT.war file (with "warble war" command)
> and copy it into webapps folder in Tomcat, Jetty or another Java
> servlets container. This WAR file contains ALL gems (including JRuby
> interpreter) so it works fine in all platforms.

I know a few people who have been deploying Merb apps in Tomcat that
way.  I understand it's a very easy way to pass off a Merb app as a
"Java" Webapp without someone knowing what it really is.  As far as
Ruby Enterprise Version I was not aware of that, but like everything
you don't always find all the options in 1 concise web page.
267942571862781dd912de6482a35f46?d=identicon&s=25 Kevin Williams (k-dub)
on 2008-07-17 02:43
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Scott Likens <damm@livid.dk> wrote:
>
> If thin supported Streaming (Not Media, but the Mongrel Extension) it would
> be something I would have no issue using.  I've mentioned that to the author
> of Thin and we'll see how that goes.
>

Thin depends on the eventmachine library, which is not great for
uploads because it is more of a fire-and-forget event-driven
architecture and long-running requests mess it up. Mongrel is better
at uploads. There is a solution for this for Merb users:
http://brainspl.at/articles/2008/04/18/deferred-re...
I have no idea if something like this can be used in a Rails app, but
that would be up to Rails/Typo to make that happen.
267942571862781dd912de6482a35f46?d=identicon&s=25 Kevin Williams (k-dub)
on 2008-07-17 02:47
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Chet Farmer <chet@nogators.com> wrote:
>
> Why on earth would you need to run a second web server? That seems like a
> really bad idea, frankly, hence my annoyance that the most obvious question
> (which boils down to "WTF?", essentially)  isn't addressed.

Let's compare to a Wordpress blog run on Apache using mod_php. The PHP
code does not serves all requests. Apache serves up the static content
(css, javascript, graphics, etc.). Many popular front-end servers also
perform proxying and load balancing, and tons of other functions.
Mod_php just runs the PHP code. Most Ruby web apps are served in this
fashion rather than by an Apache module because it was easier to
implement (at the time mod_ruby was a memory-leaking nightmare) and it
is a more flexible design by virtue of not being tied to Apache and by
being proxyable behind any decent http proxy.

It's not a bad idea, it's a sound idea. Please settle down and ask
polite questions if you truly want to understand and use Typo.
5c0f4e71d9d0b71b8b60a2693df1571a?d=identicon&s=25 Deirdre Saoirse Moen (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 02:58
(Received via mailing list)
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, JZ wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 4:22 AM, Scott Likens <damm@livid.dk> wrote:
> > 2) Mongrel/Webrick
>
> Nginx with proxy load balancer to cluster of Thin/Ebb (+unix socket)
> processes is a much faster.

A bit overkill for 99.9% of all blogs, though.
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-17 07:22
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 7:34 PM, Kevin Williams wrote:
> (css, javascript, graphics, etc.). Many popular front-end servers also
> perform proxying and load balancing, and tons of other functions.
> Mod_php just runs the PHP code. Most Ruby web apps are served in this
> fashion rather than by an Apache module because it was easier to
> implement

This must be some radical other definition of "easier."

> (at the time mod_ruby was a memory-leaking nightmare) and it
> is a more flexible design by virtue of not being tied to Apache and by
> being proxyable behind any decent http proxy.
>
> It's not a bad idea, it's a sound idea. Please settle down and ask
> polite questions if you truly want to understand and use Typo.

If you really think I'm the one that needs to settle down, I think you
must have been reading some other thread.

I've made it abundantly clear that I am 100% uninterested in
installation tweaks right now because I am dealing with bugs in Typo.
That's my  front-burner issue. If these bugs can't get resolved, the
installation issues are irrelevant. I appreciate you explaining the
rationale for Mongrel, et. al., above, nevertheless.


Chet
----
"An educated public is exactly what they don't want . . . more people
believe in angels than believe in long division." R. Norris 31 May 2006
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-17 07:43
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 16, 2008, at 7:12 PM, Scott Likens wrote:
> Stop it.  If you care that much passionately, then run Wordpress.
> The argument is self defeating, because you are comparing apples to
> pears.  You can try this argument on a Django list and see how far
> you get.

The problem here, Scott, is that you're the one who's arguing. I
stated an uncontroversial position -- RoR apps are harder to deploy
than traditional LAMP apps -- and you've gone all apoplectic with
fanboy protestations that, frankly, make no sense.

Look: I don't care. It's absolutely not important to me today, and I'm
100% done with you. I have problems with Typo that Fred says he's
working on, and I appreciate that. What I do NOT appreciate is your
incessant browbeating and bombastic Ruby boosterism.

>>> Why on earth would you need to run a second web server? That seems
>>> like a really bad idea, frankly, hence my annoyance that the most
>>> obvious question (which boils down to "WTF?", essentially)  isn't
>>> addressed.
>
> Then I suggest you to take that torch up with the Mongrel Mailing
> list and ask them.

If it's something that's considered a common part of a Typo install,
then the Typo docs need to address it because it's out of the ordinary
for weblogging software.

> To Quote from http://wiki.rubyonrails.org/rails/pages/Understand...

I'll read this later. I am refreshed, however, that you've provided an
apparently useful link.

> In essence, your database has a 'version' number in it, and if
> someone adds a new model, or changes a model a migration is also
> made.  So that you can run 'rake db:migrate' to ensure your database
> is "up to date" and able to do what the new version intends to do.

Why is this better than just dropping the SQLite file into the tree
after your re-install? (Hypothetically; I haven't tried it.)

>>> Of course you'll have to reinstall your plugins and themes.
>>
>> !!!!
>>
>> To put it mildly, that's a bit bizarre and very unfriendly to the
>> user.
>
> With the exception of plugins and themes, I find the upgrade process
> very relaxing and totally capable.

It's plugins and theme reinstallation I find bizarre.

>>> I believe as a standard practice
>>
>> Maybe for Typo. Not for anything else I use.
>
> Remind me not to hire you as a Systems Administrator.

Based on my exposure to you here, it seems astoundingly unlikely
you'll ever be in a position to hire anyone with my resume.

My reference here is to the need to reinstall plugins and themes, not
standard pre-patch/pre-upgrade backups. In my career so far, my
experience is much more defined by my own refusal to hire doctrinaire
platform zealots.

> Not to mention that is part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Compliance Matrix 
(http://www.crcdataprotection.com/solutions/sox_com...
> )

SarBox is so often a part of blog culture.

> Because clearly I don't get it, and won't get it.


This, at least, is abundantly clear.

<plonk>

Chet Farmer
----
"When you've got an RV, a jet pack, and a monkey you really don't need
much actual content"  - KS
0964828011133c856bae646e55911115?d=identicon&s=25 William Ross (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 10:30
(Received via mailing list)
On 16 Jul 2008, at 14:38, Chet Farmer wrote:
>>> that this is actually driving me to think I should can it and go
>>> for the same suite of PHP apps as everyone else.
>>
>> I will agree with that, as Debian Etch currently has Ruby 1.8.4(2?
>> i forget) with Rubygems 0.92.  However is that Ruby's problem? or
>> the Linux distribution you chose?
>
> It's definitely Ruby's problem if PHP, Perl, Python, etc., are all
> running fine out of the box.

I'd just like to put in a vote for not Ruby's problem here. I've never
had any trouble deploying rails applications. I used to be a mod_perl
hacker and that was much, much harder to set up and keep going.

The only difference, in my view, is that Rails isn't a commodity
solution yet. You can't easily buy some Rails and you don't get an
option on the Ubuntu disc to install a good starting Rails setup. A
Rails app needs a port, I suppose, so you can't really run one unless
you have your own box and it's really not something you should bother
with if you just want your blog to be fashionably served.

If you have some reason to want Apache as your front end, you have to
know how to proxy to another port. The documentation for that is here:

  http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_proxy.html

and includes straightforward cut and paste configuration along with
some very useful warnings. I don't know anything about mod_rails, but
I suspect that unless you want to get fancy with the apache lifecycle,
you don't need that much integration. Nginx is a much better front end
anyway: fast and simple. There's an excellent cargo config here:

  http://brainspl.at/articles/2006/09/12/new-nginx-c...

and some thorough benchmarking here:

  http://blog.kovyrin.net/2006/08/28/ruby-performance-results/

I've found it perfectly straightforward to set up typo (or radiant, or
mephisto: I have sites running on each) using mongrel_cluster,
capistrano and an nginx front end. The only things I had to compile
were nginx and sphinx. Everything else is apt-gettable (and I think
now nginx is too). I use three application servers and one database
server and deliver over 100,000 pages a day with typically about a
quarter load. It scales well enough for me and it's over two years
since the last boot. I certainly couldn't say that when I was
desperately propping up 100MB apache processes.

> Here, you're defaulting back to a knee-jerk defense of what is
> clearly your pet language. That has no place here. Compared to LAMP-
> stack stuff, RoR applications are much harder to set up and deploy.
> They require a totally different approach, and that approach is very
> poorly documented. This isn't a controversial statement.


The documentation is fine. The only problem is that there is no single
orthodox solution. I see that as a strength, but it does mean that
some expertise is required to choose your recipe. You (Chet) are right
in the sense that for the beginner, a working typo blog is probably
not as easy to get to as a working php-based blog. For anyone who
knows what they're doing there's really no difference and the rails
model is much easier to maintain.

Most of this is general to rails so it's also worth mentioning that
Frédéric is very diligent and responsive and the software is good. He
deserves more appreciation, i think.

best,

will
700f9a3b883e6a04d018f48290b1a3fd?d=identicon&s=25 de Villamil Frédéric (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 14:42
(Received via mailing list)
> He deserves more appreciation, i think.
Regarding the dcumentation, I've started to refactor the one we have
and published some. I'm taking the doc back on the redmin, and will
move *.typosphere.org on it but the blog.

If someone here have the time to proofread this :
http://redmine.typosphere.org/wiki/typo/Before_Ins...
http://redmine.typosphere.org/wiki/typo/Install_Ty...
http://redmine.typosphere.org/wiki/typo/Install_Ty...
http://redmine.typosphere.org/wiki/typo/Secure_Typ...

I will add docs on deploying Typo under various things tonight :
– Apache + mod_rails
– Apache + fastcgi
– Apache + mongrel
– Nginx + Thin
– Nginx + Fastcgi
– Nginx + mongrel
– Lighttpd + fastcgi
– Lighttpd + Thin
– Lighttpd + mongrel

However, we do officially recommend and support mod_rails as the best
and easiest way to run any Rails app.

Regarding my appreciation, I know I've made some mistakes (5.0 was one
of them : relying too much on the tests and not testing in production
mode enough). However, I prefer having negative feedback as long as
it's argumented and documented, it's much better than just "yay, your
appz is so cool" when you want to improve things.

Regards,
Frédéric

--
Frédéric de Villamil
frederic@de-villamil.com                        tel: +33 (0)6 62 19 1337
http://fredericdevillamil.com             Typo : http://typosphere.org
Ed52c0d47479c25eee49ec92b366d880?d=identicon&s=25 Robert Sanford (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 15:58
(Received via mailing list)
Scott blathered thusly....
> It's not my ball, it's everyone else's ball.  I do not suffer the problem of
> a 6-month release cycle, or how painful Ruby on Rails is to deploy.  I
> realize I don't see your pain, so perhaps if you could actually write up a
> way we could make this easier for you?  Because clearly I don't get it, and
> won't get it.  So instead of venting your frustration the way you are,
> please educate us.

Let's see...

Chet said "Doesn't work w/ MarsEdit or TextMate client-side publishing
tools" and Frederic responded saying "You're right, it doesn't in the
release but is in the trunk and wait for the next release."

Chet said "Documentation is sub-optimal" and Frederic responded saying
"You're right, it is sub-optimal because I haven't put too much effort
into it. I'll work on that."

Chet said "Updating the blog is failing" and Frederic responded saying
"You're right, that is a defect that has been fixed in the trunk. It
will be in the next release."

Chet said "Installation and upgrades are somewhat awkward especially
compared to more mature solutions implemented in other languages." and
Frederic and most everyone else said "You're right, they are awkward
due to the options and evolving Ruby platform and we choose to put up
with that because we like Ruby and Typo but we understand your pain."

So now I'm confused - If one of the maintainers is agreeing that
Chet's posted issues are both understandable and valid then why would
you continue arguing?

rjsjr
267942571862781dd912de6482a35f46?d=identicon&s=25 Kevin Williams (k-dub)
on 2008-07-17 17:02
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Chet Farmer <chet@nogators.com> wrote:
> On Jul 16, 2008, at 7:34 PM, Kevin Williams wrote:
>> Let's compare to a Wordpress blog run on Apache using mod_php. The PHP
>> code does not serves all requests. Apache serves up the static content
>> (css, javascript, graphics, etc.). Many popular front-end servers also
>> perform proxying and load balancing, and tons of other functions.
>> Mod_php just runs the PHP code. Most Ruby web apps are served in this
>> fashion rather than by an Apache module because it was easier to
>> implement
>
> This must be some radical other definition of "easier."

At the time Mongrel came around, no one, and I mean no one, would
touch the mod_ruby code. Webrick was slow and FastCGI was very buggy
at best. Zed Shaw stepped up with a strictly-spec-compliant and fast
web server for Ruby. There was much rejoicing and dancing in the
streets. You can call it radical if you want to, but it worked very
well.

>
>> (at the time mod_ruby was a memory-leaking nightmare) and it
>> is a more flexible design by virtue of not being tied to Apache and by
>> being proxyable behind any decent http proxy.
>>
>> It's not a bad idea, it's a sound idea. Please settle down and ask
>> polite questions if you truly want to understand and use Typo.
>
> If you really think I'm the one that needs to settle down, I think you must
> have been reading some other thread.

I politely asked you to change the tone of your requests, yet you
continue to be confrontational. Please stop. Comments such as "that's
ridiculous" and "that's a very bad idea" and repeatedly saying "you're
wrong" when you've clearly shown that you don't understand why things
are the way they are now is just causing trouble. You have issues with
Typo and want help. Is this really how you ask for help?

>
> I've made it abundantly clear that I am 100% uninterested in installation
> tweaks right now because I am dealing with bugs in Typo. That's my
>  front-burner issue. If these bugs can't get resolved, the installation
> issues are irrelevant. I appreciate you explaining the rationale for
> Mongrel, et. al., above, nevertheless.

You're welcome, and thank you for saying so.
8207c776139b82a3d02e4b11806741a8?d=identicon&s=25 Chet Farmer (chet)
on 2008-07-17 20:40
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 17, 2008, at 10:02 AM, Kevin Williams wrote:
> At the time Mongrel came around, no one, and I mean no one, would
> touch the mod_ruby code. Webrick was slow and FastCGI was very buggy
> at best. Zed Shaw stepped up with a strictly-spec-compliant and fast
> web server for Ruby. There was much rejoicing and dancing in the
> streets. You can call it radical if you want to, but it worked very
> well.

I appreciate you giving the backstory here, but having to include
another web server, though, is not something I'd describe as "easier"
when compared to other tools that require only one.

>>> Please settle down and ask
>>> polite questions if you truly want to understand and use Typo.
>>
>> If you really think I'm the one that needs to settle down, I think
>> you must
>> have been reading some other thread.
>
> I politely asked you to change the tone of your requests, yet you
> continue to be confrontational.

I was confrontational to Scott because his posts were snide, rude,
useless knee-jerk defenses of his pet stack.

> Please stop. Comments such as "that's
> ridiculous" and "that's a very bad idea" and repeatedly saying "you're
> wrong" when you've clearly shown that you don't understand why things
> are the way they are now is just causing trouble.

My complaints really began with this very point; recall one of my
original points was the poor state of documentation concerning the
idiosyncratic installation requirements of Typo.

If it were more clear why I should consider installing another web
server just to run Typo from Typo's own docs, perhaps I wouldn't be
complaining about the docs.

> You have issues with
> Typo and want help. Is this really how you ask for help?

I certainly wasn't asking Scott for help, and he certainly wasn't
providing any. He jumped in to tell me my assessment of the state of
Ruby/Rails/Typo installation was wrong, which is simply incorrect.
He's offered nothing of value to me in re: my actual problems.

My original posts to this list met with either no response at all, or,
more recently, helpful responses from Frederic. Frankly, I was
surprised, after that, to get Scott's fanboy eruptions. I believe I
dealt with him appropriately, and with a level of grace appropriate
for handling such a poster.



Chet
Ad3b4435b0e9c7cdc34536b87d0cc66a?d=identicon&s=25 Scott Likens (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 22:59
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 17, 2008, at 11:36 AM, Chet Farmer wrote:
>
> I certainly wasn't asking Scott for help, and he certainly wasn't
> providing any. He jumped in to tell me my assessment of the state of
> Ruby/Rails/Typo installation was wrong, which is simply incorrect.
> He's offered nothing of value to me in re: my actual problems.
>
> My original posts to this list met with either no response at all,
> or, more recently, helpful responses from Frederic. Frankly, I was
> surprised, after that, to get Scott's fanboy eruptions. I believe I
> dealt with him appropriately, and with a level of grace appropriate
> for handling such a poster.

Perhaps you mistook my emails as a knee-jerk nonsense emails.  But I
was trying to get more information to provide some assistance, however
I was not getting any valid feedback.  I realize I did not word them
in a way that you wanted, however my intent was to get more
information to help.

I searched through old emails trying to find any information of why
you could not do this or that, and Truthfully all I could find were
posts related to "MarsEdit".  Which those bugs have been fixed in
trunk, if you want you can try updating to "Trunk" and see if that
fixes your problems?
700f9a3b883e6a04d018f48290b1a3fd?d=identicon&s=25 de Villamil Frédéric (Guest)
on 2008-07-17 23:40
(Received via mailing list)
Le 17 juil. 08 à 22:30, Scott Likens a écrit :

>>> You have issues with
>> surprised, after that, to get Scott's fanboy eruptions. I believe I
> you could not do this or that, and Truthfully all I could find were
> posts related to "MarsEdit".  Which those bugs have been fixed in
> trunk, if you want you can try updating to "Trunk" and see if that
> fixes your problems?


I've fixed MetaWeblog API tags issues as well in trunk today. However,
it seems marsedit doesn't support that feature (or didn't found how to
do so). Other issue for me is that the Metaweblog API provides a
getCategories method, but no way to getKeywords, which means 2 things :
– Using the metaweblog API won't let you see which tags already exist
on your blog (our wb based admin interface now have tags autocompletion)
– Editing a post will make you delete every tags used so far from this
post, unless you remember them and add them by hand.

Regarding the documentation, I've been talking with a friend today
about what we should provide. Cool things came up, and amongst them
the fact we should officially support one installation way of self
hosting Typo, which means the easiest one (obvious heh ?). Having to
choose between 3 webservers, and 3 ways to serve pages (mod_rails,
(Fast)CGI and application server) is just too confusing for people. If
they want to deploy their webserver an exotic way (that's to say
without Apache + MySQL which are the most widespread things you've
ever found on the Internet), it's not our problem. However, we'll keep
the existing docs about exotic configs for information purpose.
redmine.typosphere.org is a wiki, if someone want to complete... it's
up to him / her.

Was my 2 cents, now I must leave you, I've a release t finish before
sunday and I'd love to add some more fancy things if I can (like
autosave). If anyone want to help instead of just trolling :-)
--
Frédéric de Villamil
frederic@de-villamil.com                        tel: +33 (0)6 62 19 1337
http://fredericdevillamil.com             Typo : http://typosphere.org
700f9a3b883e6a04d018f48290b1a3fd?d=identicon&s=25 de Villamil Frédéric (Guest)
on 2008-07-18 00:18
(Received via mailing list)
>
Forget about the last 2 things... I must be really tired. However it
works, and that's what counts (at least with Ecto)

Fred
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