# Wondering About Flatiron School **URL:** \ **Category:** Ruby\ **Created:** [December 15, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549 "2012-12-15T03:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/1 "2012-12-15T03:51:04Z")
Hi everyone!, Do any of you have some information on FlatironSchool? > **[Bootcamps in Software, Cyber, Data & Design | Flatiron School](https://flatironschool.com/)** > > Flatiron School is a coding bootcamp with online and on-campus courses in coding, data science, cybersecurity, and product design courses. I hear many good things about the program. They guarantee molding students with no to little previous programming experience to become a competent Web/Ruby Developer in 12 Weeks! I am considering going there- But four things about the school make me hesitate to apply. 1.Tuition = $10k 2.It is very new and is untested. 3. Can’t you achieve the same effect alone or studying through Skillshare/MeetUps? 4.Job Placement Their syllabus look great and many outsiders in programming communities praise students’ work. I was just hoping that perhaps some of you have more information on this school and whether you think it is worth the investment. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/2 "2012-12-15T05:00:32Z")
i don’t know Flatiron School. Learning is one way, job placement is another story. ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/3 "2012-12-15T05:02:18Z")
On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 11:51:08AM +0900, Kevin Y. wrote: > 1.Tuition = $10k > 2.It is very new and is untested. > 3. Can’t you achieve the same effect alone or studying through > Skillshare/MeetUps? > 4.Job Placement > > Their syllabus look great and many outsiders in programming communities > praise students’ work. I was just hoping that perhaps some of you have > more information on this school and whether you think it is worth the > investment. It all comes down to how best you learn, your priorities, and your resources. $10K is a hell of a lot of money for something that _can_ conceivably be learned on your own. On the other hand, a structured class setting offers a form of mentorship and some help with rapid skill uptake, including the time pressures from externally imposed deadlines. Ultimately, I do not think that these programs are worth anywhere near that much money in and of themselves. Two things that might make them worth more are both tangential to the skill acquisition: 1. possible job placement help 2. employers valuing documented instruction over autodidactic learning The first is mostly valuable only because of the second, which means that the biggest benefit from such a program in the general case is bypassing employment gatekeepers who feel the need to justify hiring recommendations through key resume bullet points rather than relying solely on actual suitability to the job. There are specific cases where the benefits of the hands-on instructional model might be more valuable to a given student than the increased ability to slide into the job market. This relates specifically to people whose best prospects for learning come from that instructional model, though – and not to people whose learning is best served by other approaches to acquiring skills. So . . . the upshot is that, unless the Flatiron School is just garbage, the answer is “It depends.” ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:46am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/4 "2012-12-15T10:46:53Z")
Just to put in a spanner in the works here. I’m the guy who decides who gets employed at the company I work at and any CV that has nothing more to show than some paper qualification that was bought would go straight in the bin without a second glance. Just saying ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/5 "2012-12-16T00:19:50Z")
Peter H. wrote in post #1089175: > Just to put in a spanner in the works here. I’m the guy who decides who > gets employed at the company I work at and any CV that has nothing more > to > show than some paper qualification that was bought would go straight in > the > bin without a second glance. > > Just saying HI Peter, thanks for you input. Just wondering, at the risk of looking naive (and I am at this point), what are the most important elements of a candidate you look for? Yeah, I did not expect the ‘degree’ from the school would help at all. It was more of the connections the school may provide. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/6 "2012-12-16T00:40:10Z")
Chad P. wrote in post #1089161: > On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 11:51:08AM +0900, Kevin Y. wrote: > > > 1.Tuition = $10k > > 2.It is very new and is untested. > > 3. Can’t you achieve the same effect alone or studying through > > Skillshare/MeetUps? > > 4.Job Placement > > > > Their syllabus look great and many outsiders in programming communities > > praise students’ work. I was just hoping that perhaps some of you have > > more information on this school and whether you think it is worth the > > investment. > > It all comes down to how best you learn, your priorities, and your > resources. $10K is a hell of a lot of money for something that _can_ > conceivably be learned on your own. On the other hand, a structured > class setting offers a form of mentorship and some help with rapid skill > uptake, including the time pressures from externally imposed deadlines. > > Ultimately, I do not think that these programs are worth anywhere near > that much money in and of themselves. Two things that might make them > worth more are both tangential to the skill acquisition: > > 1. possible job placement help > 2. employers valuing documented instruction over autodidactic learning > > The first is mostly valuable only because of the second, which means > that > the biggest benefit from such a program in the general case is bypassing > employment gatekeepers who feel the need to justify hiring > recommendations through key resume bullet points rather than relying > solely on actual suitability to the job. > > There are specific cases where the benefits of the hands-on > instructional > model might be more valuable to a given student than the increased > ability to slide into the job market. This relates specifically to > people whose best prospects for learning come from that instructional > model, though – and not to people whose learning is best served by > other > approaches to acquiring skills. > > So . . . the upshot is that, unless the Flatiron School is just garbage, > the answer is “It depends.” Hi Chad, Thanks for your generous respond. The case study you provide is something that has been replaying over my mind for the last couple days. At this point, I decided on the following things. 1.Flatiron School is legit in that the program will greatly help you getting vast knowledge and experience in very little time. 1. Still, I can’t count on being placed or finding a job right after graduation. Rather, it is more likely that I will have to spend 1-2months finishing up portfolio and applying for jobs. (which cannot happen with out #1) 3.10K is a rip off. However, the benefits outweigh. Colleges are bigger rip offs. 1. Two alternatives: quit my job, spend 6 months preparing with the 10K I won’t spend on the school instead of 3months. Attend many Skillshare classes and use CodeSchool and such. or attend Other programs. Hunter College Front End Development Certificate Program: $3400.00 [Hunter College Continuing Education](http://www.hunter.cuny.edu/ce/certificates/computer/web-programming) ``` NYU Wed Develpment Intensive course:$4000.00 http://www.scps.nyu.edu/content/scps/academics/course_detail.html?id=INFO1-CE9742 ``` ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/7 "2012-12-16T01:41:19Z")
Hi, promising to “turn you into a web developer” in 12 weeks (even if you have no previous experience) is just laughable and stinks of snake oil. Learning to program takes _years_ of practicing. Just ask the guys in this forum. In Germany, for example, becoming a “programmer” takes 3 years. And that’s some pretty intense training, which consists of both working at a company and going to school. Many companies even require you to have solid programming skills beforehand. So after those 12 weeks you will _not_ be a web developer who’s actually fit for the job. If they’re good, they’ll give you a basic overview of different techniques. If they are bad, they’ll teach you nothing but a bunch of buzzwords and tell you that you’re a “Ruby rockstar” now. So I’d be very sceptical about this. Personally, all that hipster-talk alone makes we wanna close the page immediately. ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/8 "2012-12-16T12:38:53Z")
On 15 December 2012 23:20, Kevin Y. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > HI Peter, thanks for you input. > Just wondering, at the risk of looking naive (and I am at this point), > what are the most important elements of a candidate you look for? Yeah, > I did not expect the ‘degree’ from the school would help at all. It was > more of the connections the school may provide. Well we are a RoR shop and so an ideal candidate would be someone with a few years RoR experience. Having said that none have come forward over the past two years when we were recruiting (maybe London is too much of a backwater, but I suspect it is that our industry sector - sports data - is not interesting / sexy enough). What we ended up with were CS or hard science graduates (maths, physics) with little or no Ruby experience who showed an interest in computing beyond what was needed for their degree. It was this interest beyond the needs of their degree that swayed us. One had written some Facebook apps just for the hell of it. Another had taught themselves Android development and created a scientific app that probably only twelve people in the world will use. An interest in computing without immediate commercial gain. The ability to teach yourself new skills. A desire to learn. These things made us want to interview them, the degree (while I would like to say having a degree is not important it does show an ability to study and think analytically) subject area is of less importance. I’m not sure how we would view a degree in Medieval Literature but one guy in another department has a degree in Theology so I suspect that it wouldn’t be a problem. So what we are looking for is: 1. The ability to study and think analytically - a degree is a good proxy for this 2. The ability to teach oneself new skills 3. The creation of applications with those skills that have made it into the wild - application of those skills 4. An interest in computing beyond marketable skills 5. Experience in a commercial computing environment (around 1 year is good) But thats what it takes to be interviewed by us, other people will have other criteria. We are a small shop so making a bad hire would be a real pain but with the criteria I have given here we have not made a hire that we regret in the slightest. Ask yourself what adding Flatiron would add to your CV in light of this. I suspect that by itself it would add nothing. So the real question is “I have $10k, how can I make myself employable as a RoR developer?” Sorry, I have no answer for that. ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/9 "2012-12-16T12:40:39Z")
On Dec 16, 2012, at 1:41 AM, Jan E. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > Hi, > > promising to “turn you into a web developer” in 12 weeks (even if > you have no previous experience) is just laughable and stinks of snake > oil. That might be a bit of an upsell, but 12 weeks of intensive training can get you _very_ far. > Learning to program takes _years_ of practicing. Just ask the guys in > this forum. In Germany, for example, becoming a “programmer” takes 3 > years. And that’s some pretty intense training, which consists of both > working at a company and going to school. Many companies even require > you to have solid programming skills beforehand. Just because the formal apprenticeship takes 3 years to complete doesn’t mean that you need 3 years to learn “programming”. Quite frankly, most of the curriculum in Germany for programming apprenticeships is pretty laughable. For universities, there is a common joke: “Students know Java very well, all you have to do is teach them programming.” I know more than one apprentice that were perfectly good and productive team-mates in bigger projects after the first 2 month if you knew about what they were good at and what they lacked and allowed for some time for self-training on each tasks. Also, the number of non-“certified” programmers in good positions in Germany shows that programming itself is nothing that you have to be tought to work in that field. Formal education certainly helps, but for many tasks, you don’t need it. > So after those 12 weeks you will _not_ be a web developer who’s actually > fit for the job. If they’re good, they’ll give you a basic overview of > different techniques. If they are bad, they’ll teach you nothing but a > bunch of buzzwords and tell you that you’re a “Ruby rockstar” now. Someone that can do many basic tasks is already a valuable asset if you know how to treat that relationship right. It will certainly not make you a “i am a ninja and get a lot of cash”-Programmer, but getting to a decent productivity level for basic tasks in 12 weeks is certainly possible. Have him do landing page for 3 weeks, you can never have enough of them :). Also, the concept of having such intensive courses is pretty usual: pretty much every database vendor sells you DB knowledge in 4 days or less (and you’d be surprised how good some of these are) and most european universities have courses on top of their studies that teach skills at a decent level in 3 months. > So I’d be very sceptical about this. Personally, all this hipster-talk > alone makes we wanna close the page immediately. Thats true, trust is another thing. I wouldn’t accept an applicant just by merit of having finished such a school alone, but thats a question of how the applicant sells himself. Being upfront about “I am switching professions and took a course” goes a long way. ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/10 "2012-12-16T13:39:04Z")
Subject: Re: Wondering About Flatiron School Date: Sun 16 Dec 12 08:38:31PM +0900 Quoting Peter H. ([removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid)): > So what we are looking for is: > > 1. The ability to study and think analytically - a degree is a good proxy > for this > 2. The ability to teach oneself new skills > 3. The creation of applications with those skills that have made it into > the wild - application of those skills > 4. An interest in computing beyond marketable skills > 5. Experience in a commercial computing environment (around 1 year is good) I wonder how you deal with people who offer lots of experience (say, around a quarter of a century). I mean: what could a person learn in a year? If I compare myself now and after one year being employed, I certainly wouldn’t want to go back… And I had already done one year’s Fortran77 at the university plus an unforgettable year writing administrative code in GWbasic (compulsory military service). Carlo ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/11 "2012-12-16T15:48:10Z")
On 16 December 2012 12:38, Carlo E. Prelz [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > I wonder how you deal with people who offer lots of experience (say, > around a quarter of a century). I mean: what could a person learn in a > year? If I compare myself now and after one year being employed, I > certainly wouldn’t want to go back… And I had already done one > year’s Fortran77 at the university plus an unforgettable year writing > administrative code in GWbasic (compulsory military service). > > Carlo We have come to the conclusion that experience is experience regardless of the languages or technologies (personally I have been programming since the late 70s and was originally a mainframe COBOL programmer, spent a few years writing financial software in Basic). You can learn a lot in a year, but it does depend on the year. As someone said “They know Java, now they need to learn how to program”, well that one year counts for a lot. Given the choice between two candidates one who has left university with 3 years of Java but no real world experience and one who has completed one years employment as a PHP programmer the candidate with real world experience actually has the upper hand. But then again as I have said we are a small shop and need people who can take on a problem and handle it by themselves. A large bank that is hiring a dozen programmers probably has completely different criteria. It is my experience that much of the technology that I have learnt over the years is, of itself, completely useless (and as a consequence does not appear on my CV). I have used languages and operating systems that are almost extinct so they are not marketable skills. The real skills (the ones that are not tied to a language or platform) accumulate very slowly. So the difference between no real world experience and one years experience is significant, but the difference between 1 year and 3 is less marked. 25 years experience is not 25 times greater than 1 year - I would only consider the last 5 to 7 years of your CV to be of interest. If however your CV showed that you had been doing the same thing for the last 15 years then it might start to count against you - I like to see someone learning new things (or at least new to them). ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/12 "2012-12-16T15:28:45Z")
@ Florian: It seems we have a very different understanding of being a programmer. Somebody who can do basic tasks within a team that looks after him is a code monkey to me, not a programmer. Yeah, you can probably become a decent code monkey in a few months. Many school kids today don’t even have to be taught the basics, because they’ve already published projects on GitHub, maybe done some small jobs etc. But that doesn’t make them programmers! There’s a big difference between, say, writing an SQL query that kind of works – and being able to understand an execution plan and write a query that won’t break down even if thousands of customers visit the page simulatenously. A programmer to me is somebody who actually knows what he’s doing and can come up with workable solutions in a short amount of time. And that’s something you won’t learn in a few weeks. Of course you don’t necessarily need formal education. But it does help to come down to earth and get _real_ knowledge and experience as opposed to “Hey, I’ve read some PHP tutorials, I’m a web developer now!”. It’s like with any other serious job: I’m sure there are many great self-taught architects out there. But when you hire one, you _probably_ want him to have an actual diploma and not just a certificate from “Learn statics in only 1 week!”. I’m not saying that those Flatiron courses are useless. I don’t know them. But I think they give a a very wrong impression of what you can do with your knowledge. What kind of jobs will that be when all you need is a few weeks of training? ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/13 "2012-12-16T23:35:46Z")
Chad P. wrote in post #1089291: > On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 08:40:19AM +0900, Kevin Y. wrote: > > > 3.10K is a rip off. However, the benefits outweigh. Colleges are bigger > > rip offs. > > For purposes of pure learning . . . yes, they are. Keep in mind, > though, > that many employers simply will not hire anyone without a college > degree. > A lot of those say they’ll hire without a degree if you have > “equivalent” > experience, but mostly (even if they believe it) they don’t really mean > it deep down inside. Exceptions tend to be made for people who are > “rock > stars” (e.g. someone hiring for Ruby on Rails might not turn down DHH > even if he didn’t have a degree), but most of us aren’t famous that way. Is that really true that employers will not hire a candidate without programming related degree? I know at least two people who went to fine art programs and one is doing very well as an iOS app developer and the other something else I do not know at this moment. Also I attended few SkillShare courses that are taught by professional programmers who were self-taught and they definitely did not think that college degrees are necessary as long as your work reflects certain level of skill. There wasn’t any conflict of interests as those classes were free. ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:38am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/14 "2012-12-17T09:38:27Z")
Subject: Re: Wondering About Flatiron School Date: Sun 16 Dec 12 11:47:23PM +0900 Quoting Peter H. ([removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid)): > It is my experience that much of the technology that I have learnt > over the years is, of itself, completely useless (and as a > consequence does not appear on my CV). I have used languages and > operating systems that are almost extinct so they are not marketable > skills. The real skills (the ones that are not tied to a language or > platform) accumulate very slowly. You are very right. Nevertheless, you seldom find those slowly accumulating skills mentioned in job requirements. I see a clear tendency at giving a predominant rank to the current buzzword in whatever IT faculties have recently established as “best practice.” It boils down to the wisdom of the person who is called to evaluate candidates. Difficult job… Carlo ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:44am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/15 "2012-12-17T09:44:18Z")
On Dec 16, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Jan E. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > @ Florian: > > It seems we have a very different understanding of being a programmer. > Somebody who can do basic tasks within a team that looks after him is a > code monkey to me, not a programmer. Yeah, you can probably become a > decent code monkey in a few months. Many school kids today don’t even > have to be taught the basics, because they’ve already published projects > on GitHub, maybe done some small jobs etc. I never wrote that it makes you a fully-fledged programmer - but it can make you fit for working in a company. Many companies pass by perfectly good talent because of exactly that mindset. Also, the differentiation between “code monkey” and “programmer” on skill is maybe the most snobbish thing I heard in a while, if not actively harmful. Granted: there is a difference between someone that just copy and pastes code and someone that applies skills. But if you apply programming skills in a creative way - how meager they may be, you are nevertheless a programmer - just not a good one (yet). > But that doesn’t make them programmers! There’s a big difference > between, say, writing an SQL query that kind of works – and being able > to understand an execution plan and write a query that won’t break down > even if thousands of customers visit the page simulatenously. A > programmer to me is somebody who actually knows what he’s doing and can > come up with workable solutions in a short amount of time. And that’s > something you won’t learn in a few weeks. I’ve seen people with zero knowledge in either algebra and SQL doing query optimization perfectly well _because they saw the need and learned what they had to learn_. It took them long, but hey! Taking the right actions and learning what you need for it is what makes a programmer, not your skill level. And yes: I would never let such a person work alone, but with more experienced supervision, you can see a lot of awesome things happening. > Of course you don’t necessarily need formal education. But it does help > to come down to earth and get _real_ knowledge and experience as opposed > to “Hey, I’ve read some PHP tutorials, I’m a web developer now!”. We’re not talking about “some guy who read some tutorials after midnight”, but taking a course for a quarter of a year. (assuming that the course is good) > It’s like with any other serious job: I’m sure there are many great > self-taught architects out there. But when you hire one, you _probably_ > want him to have an actual diploma and not just a certificate from > “Learn statics in only 1 week!”. Now you are mingeling topics: I agree with you that a course certificate does not give you any more credibility in the hiring process. I just don’t agree with the premise that such a course can only yield unusable personnel. Even self-teching yields perfectly good people from time to time, so how can a good > I’m not saying that those Flatiron courses are useless. I don’t know > them. But I think they give a a very wrong impression of what you can do > with your knowledge. What kind of jobs will that be when all you need is > a few weeks of training? As I said: basic jobs with an opportunity to improve. Lets face it: Many companies are searching for people to make even the most miniscule tasks. At worst, they allow very basic tasks to be done by expensive ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/16 "2012-12-16T19:16:42Z")
On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 08:40:19AM +0900, Kevin Y. wrote: > 3.10K is a rip off. However, the benefits outweigh. Colleges are bigger > rip offs. For purposes of pure learning . . . yes, they are. Keep in mind, though, that many employers simply will not hire anyone without a college degree. A lot of those say they’ll hire without a degree if you have “equivalent” experience, but mostly (even if they believe it) they don’t really mean it deep down inside. Exceptions tend to be made for people who are “rock stars” (e.g. someone hiring for Ruby on Rails might not turn down DHH even if he didn’t have a degree), but most of us aren’t famous that way. ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/17 "2012-12-17T19:09:17Z")
On Dec 17, 2012 2:44 AM, “Florian G.” [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > > have to be taught the basics, because they’ve already published projects > > on GitHub, maybe done some small jobs etc. I’m going to agree with Jan on this, and it doesn’t have to do with just programming. My first job in IT, we had a guy that convinced his way in by pretending he knew things. I was his “go to” for things he couldn’t handle. Needless to say, he’s now a very unqualified system manager. It’s unfortunate for them, but it happens. I have a handful of similar stories dealing with this or that person’s clout, meaning, he’s not the only one that slipped invasively through the cracks. In interviews, I take the middle ground with prospective help, all the while keeping in mind that even though young blood is good, somebody that has already walked through fire to get here is much, much better than a signed piece of paper, and, in this case, one that carries little weight. ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/18 "2012-12-17T16:33:37Z")
Hi Everyone, So I’m Avi, the founder and main instructor at the Flatiron School. I guess I just want to address why I started the school and give you a sense of what our program is about. Our program is geared to people with no technical experience and our goal is first and foremost to help them fall madly in love with code. Once someone loves this, I know they’ll never give up on learning it and will value being great at their craft. Being a programmer, we take so much for granted when we think of beginners. One of the first assumptions we make is that a layman will connect in the same deep way we have to code. It’s important to show them what we take for granted. That programmers change the world more on a daily basis then any other profession. That technology now influences every aspect of our lives, culture, economics, and politics. Just look at the US elections and how better software helped Obama rally a vote where Romney’s platform is largely cited as having failed. That as a programmer we have the wealth of human wisdom at our finger tips, able to bend it to our whim like branches in the wind. That code presents a larger design pattern behind all systems of massive complexity, of composition of synthesis, of building up a system from smaller units of itself, like notes in a song and atoms in a compound. So ya, that’s Flatiron’s first job, to help people connect to the wonder of code. Second, the mechanics and syntax of code are the easy parts. In fact, we don’t even teach that stuff, we expect you to learn it on your own through our prework curriculum (which is open sourced [http://prework.flatironschool.com](http://prework.flatironschool.com) ). What we focus on isn’t the science of programming but the art of expression. Knowing how to define a method isn’t as important as understanding when methods are needed, what they really mean, how they represent behavior. Programming is about articulating an idea clearly, not to a machine, but to ourselves. I try to show them how to break problems down, how to use the vocabulary they have learnt to solve a problem, how to work in teams, how to come up with effective plans, how to actually build. There is just so much more to programming then the gestures of a particular language. We try to teach all those other things. Third, it’s about seeing this as a career. We do our best to provide you with the best leg up on a fruitful and long career as a developer. This is not a program for people with great ideas that would make a billion dollars if they could just learn to code. This is a program for people wanting to spend the rest of their lives writing. We help find you jobs that will continue to mentor you, teach you how to promote yourself by writing blogs on technology and code, by presenting at meetups and conferences, by contributing to open source, and by actually shipping software. Okay, this rant has gotten super long. But anyway, I hope that answers some questions about our program and what we value. If it isn’t for you, that’s fine. If you would never hire one of our students, that’s fine too. We aren’t doing this for you. We are doing it because it makes us happy. Avi Flombaum ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/19 "2012-12-17T21:10:59Z")
It isn’t marketing lingo. Don’t you feel pleasure and wonder coding? Seeing what you can create and how you can express it? I mean connect to that - this isn’t just a job, we’re not code monkeys or pixel pushers, we’re artists. It’s wondeful. Connect to that. I know the job can get stale but let’s not forget what we’re doing here. Things Flatiron Students built this semester: [http://openissu.es](http://openissu.es) - open issues aggregator off github with bounties, difficulty rating, owner endorsements, and upvotes. [http://flatiron.teamline.io](http://flatiron.teamline.io) - timelines for teams based on activity like tweets, commits, and blog posts. [http://openexam.org](http://openexam.org) - collaborative quiz generator and more. plus I think we’ve had like 8 open source commits, have open sourced all the student projects, written like 60 blog posts on topics, and built [http://xta.github.com/HalloweenBash/](http://xta.github.com/HalloweenBash/) Happy to provide more pudding for proof. I know my language can get lavish when talking about code, it isn’t a gimmick, it’s how I feel. Avi ---
**Author:** ![kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/k/4bbf92/32.png) [@kevinayp](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/kevinayp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549/20 "2012-12-17T21:06:07Z")
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Avi F. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > So ya, that’s Flatiron’s first job, to help > people connect to the wonder of code. “Wonder of code” - that’s too much for me. Maybe it’s necessary marketing lingo - or I am too long in the field. > with effective plans, how to actually build. There is just so much more > to programming then the gestures of a particular language. We try to > teach all those other things. Absolutely agree. If you regularly succeed at teaching that to people who have no previous exposure to software development in 12 weeks then hats off to you! Kind regards robert [Next page](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/wondering-about-flatiron-school/226549.md?page=2)