# Why not adopt "Python Style" indentation for Ruby? **URL:** \ **Category:** Ruby\ **Created:** [May 18, 2007, 9:26am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458 "2007-05-18T09:26:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 11:30am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/121 "2008-10-09T11:30:44Z")
I have to say bluntly I completely disagree with this. It’s an example of having learned to use a hammer, requiring all the world to be a nail. The concept of ‘block’ structured languages with block ending is much more prevalent both in language count and in user count than indentation with semantic meaning. For that I know of exactly two languages, Python and Occam… where Occam is quite a fringe language these days (and maybe always was if you weren’t programming transputers, but I’m showing my age). The most important thing to have, when learning a new language, is the flexibility to adapt, the rules, conventions and idioms of that language. The thing that stands most in the way of learning a language is the stubborn requirement that all languages operate in the same way. They don’t won’t and for good reasons. Ron. ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/122 "2008-10-09T19:06:03Z")
David A. Black wrote: > Once you look at it that way, turning Ruby into language soup makes no > sense at all. I read the article, David. I understand what the article tries to say: “After you’ve heard Matz discuss how he thinks about these things, all the more do you realize that “to make C++ programmers feel more at home” just isn’t in the ballpark.” My intention of syntax improvement on “END” is more like to make less typing and eye catching to find matching code, rather than to make ruby feel more like C/C++. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear completely. I understand as a newbie, Robert and most others suggest me to use ruby more to see if I have different feeling about “END”. But to make my point more explicit, the intention of my original post is rather than a syntax suggestion change, but more a support of ruby creator MATS’s intention and experiment (already made) on alternative syntax of “END”. Mats’s this syntax experiment likely involved other ruby guru’s support in ruby core team. They are not newbies like me or just casually jumped in this decision, right? I just additionally brought about some examples of candidates for the alternative of keyword “END”. I agreed with Robert that those candidates may not be realistic. Mats has the final decision which I will support no matter he decide to change or not, or what the new syntax be like. To make it short, I am on Mats side, who expressed and experimented a syntax alternative for “END”, while it seems Robert, David and some others are on a different side with ruby’s creator, Mats. That’s sounds a little interesting, huh? 🙂 I apologize for my rush on my some inappropriate comments/reactions anyway. ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 10:53am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/123 "2008-10-10T10:53:16Z")
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Frasier M. wrote: > My intention of syntax improvement on “END” is more like to make less > typing and eye catching to find matching code, rather than to make ruby > feel more like C/C++. > > Maybe I didn’t make myself clear completely. For better or worse, I had drifted a bit from the original topic (as I mentioned at the end of my post). > alternative of keyword “END”. I agreed with Robert that those > candidates may not be realistic. Mats has the final decision which I > will support no matter he decide to change or not, or what the new > syntax be like. > > To make it short, I am on Mats side, who expressed and experimented a > syntax alternative for “END”, while it seems Robert, David and some > others are on a different side with ruby’s creator, Mats. That’s sounds > a little interesting, huh? 🙂 No, not interesting at all. I’m on a different side from Matz on lots of proposed Ruby changes, and a few that make it in. I think everyone is; no one just says “Great!” to every single feature of Ruby, and Matz has never asked or expected us to. Please don’t start playing some kind of loyalty-to-Matz game. I’m sure he’s seen this thread and will take it under advisement. David ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/124 "2008-10-09T18:48:42Z")
David A. Black wrote: > For one thing, and by definition, the world needs only one > pan-paradigmatic, syntax-agnostic language. Once there’s one, there’s > no need for a second one. One already exists: it’s called Lisp. You’ve just described Lisp. > So then the question becomes: should Ruby > take on that role? Or, to look at it another way: should the existence > of the pan-paradigmatic language necessitate the death of an existing > language? And if so, should the doomed language be Ruby? > > Once you look at it that way, turning Ruby into language soup makes no > sense at all. Agreed. Ruby should not turn itself into Lisp! This begs a question, in my mind. Has anyone tried to implement Ruby in Lisp? (Though I know there are projects for the converse.) It would be a neat thing to do: generate Lisp code which is the Ruby AST. You automatically get N implementations of Ruby, from the N implementations of Lisp. Choose the best one according to whatever criteria, and use that for the first implementation-specific classes such as sockets. Claims that it would be too slow would need to be backed up with data. There is a near endless assortment of optimization techniques which may be used. Given SBCL is faster or slower than Java depending on the benchmark, it could potentially be much faster. The AST can be manipulated at run-time, in ways more far-reaching than the myopic hotspot algorithms. Potentially. ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 11:50am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/125 "2008-10-10T11:50:20Z")
On 09.10.2008 19:03, Frasier M. wrote: > My intention of syntax improvement on “END” is more like to make less > typing and eye catching to find matching code, rather than to make ruby > feel more like C/C++. Yet at the same time you make reading Ruby code harder for those used to the existing syntax. Plus, if that change became reality there was potentially a lot of code that needed changing. > I understand as a newbie, Robert and most others suggest me to use ruby > more to see if I have different feeling about “END”. But to make my > point more explicit, the intention of my original post is rather than a > syntax suggestion change, but more a support of ruby creator MATS’s > intention and experiment (already made) on alternative syntax of “END”. So you no longer say “let’s use Phython style indentation” but rather “I support experimenting with the syntax of Ruby once in a while to find out whether we benefit from that change”. That sounds quite different and I am guessing that we would not have seen this discussion if you stated it like this in the first place… > To make it short, I am on Mats side, who expressed and experimented a > syntax alternative for “END”, while it seems Robert, David and some > others are on a different side with ruby’s creator, Mats. I would not be so sure of that. But even if it were true, what does it matter? > That’s sounds a little interesting, huh? 🙂 Does it? What do we learn from that other than that there is disagreement in the Ruby community about this and that? I for my part get the impression that it is important for you to identify groups of people with common opinions and locate yourself among those groups. > Robert K. wrote: > > > > What about you? How open is your mind? > > > “Open”, as my understanding, is allowing others to say something and not > > > forbid them. I cannot remember having seen someone forbid you voicing your opinions - it’s not possible anyway. “Open” also means to deal with the world as it is - this includes programming languages. 🙂 > I won’t feel bad, impatient,or angry if other people brings > up suggestions which I don’t agree, and won’t use sarcastic tones to > reply newbie’s messages. That’s a noble attitude. Unfortunately not everybody adheres to it all the time - especially in public electronic forums. I am afraid, you will have to deal with sarcastic comments - one way or the other. 🙂 > I apologize for my rush on my some > inappropriate comments/reactions anyway. I did not feel offended. Apology accepted - just in case. 😉 Cheers robert ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 3:30am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/126 "2008-10-11T03:30:31Z")
David A. Black wrote: > No, not interesting at all. I’m on a different side from Matz on lots > of proposed Ruby changes, and a few that make it in. I think everyone > is; no one just says “Great!” to every single feature of Ruby, and > Matz has never asked or expected us to. Understood. The taste of people are not always the same. Discussions are unavoidable in some cases. I trust Matz and ruby core team (probably including you) are sensible gurus and can use their best judgements to further improve this already lovely language. ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 3:43am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/127 "2008-10-11T03:43:59Z")
Robert K. wrote: > So you no longer say “let’s use Phython style indentation” I didn’t intend to propose to Python style at the beginning. In my first post in this thread, I said: > Posted by Frasier M. (fmruby) on 06.10.2008 19:37 > I understand and agree your comment that ruby had better to have > something to close the code block. My second post: > James, thank you for you fast response. > I didn’t propose to get rid of the “END” like python does, but wondered > if there could be cleaner syntax to as an alternative for “END”. > but rather “I > support experimenting with the syntax of Ruby once in a while to find > out whether we benefit from that change”. Exactly my intention and wish. Maybe the thread is getting too long to make people get lost to find out earlier posts. Unlike many of rubists, I actually can see the value of python indentation. But on the other hand, I have experienced most the drawbacks of python indentation as Matz pointed out. I agree that adding something to end the code block is a must-have, especially in template webpage. Have a nice weekend, all. ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 8:39am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/128 "2013-07-29T08:39:00Z")
Why not go coffeescript style and create a preprocessor gem that compiles indent-aware ruby into ruby? Shouldn’t be too big effort. ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/129 "2013-07-29T09:56:10Z")
On 29/07/2013, at 6:39 PM, “Juha K.” [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > Why not go coffeescript style and create a preprocessor gem that > compiles indent-aware ruby into ruby? Shouldn’t be too big effort. Here’s one for you… [https://github.com/jamesotron/Rubby](https://github.com/jamesotron/Rubby) Henry ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 11:49am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/130 "2013-07-29T11:49:30Z")
On Jul 28, 2013, at 23:39 , Juha K. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > Why not go coffeescript style and create a preprocessor gem that > compiles indent-aware ruby into ruby? Shouldn’t be too big effort. Perhaps because we’d hate it? Otherwise we’d already be coding in python. ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/131 "2013-07-29T13:41:06Z")
Subject: Re: Why not adopt “Python Style” indentation for Ruby? Date: lun 29 lug 13 06:48:50 +0900 Quoting Ryan D. (removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid): > > Why not go coffeescript style and create a preprocessor gem that > > compiles indent-aware ruby into ruby? Shouldn’t be too big effort. > > Perhaps because we’d hate it? Otherwise we’d already be coding in python. +1 Carlo PS I do not hate it, but I find it highly impractical… ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/132 "2013-07-29T16:20:38Z")
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 03:39:02PM +0900, Juha K. wrote: > Why not go coffeescript style and create a preprocessor gem that > compiles indent-aware ruby into ruby? Shouldn’t be too big effort. To what advantage? ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/133 "2013-07-29T17:21:27Z")
If you want python style indents and python this and python that, then pray tell, why aren’t you just using Python? Quit trying to program Ruby like it’s Python and you’ll be a lot better off. Code is plenty short when you learn anonymous functions, Blocks, Procs, and Lambdas. The more lisp you learn the faster that will become apparent. Ruby has the strength of some functional programming, and pushing that under the rug is a tragedy. That being said it can be extended to do such things but it’s completely unnecessary if not borderline esoteric. Program Ruby like it’s Ruby. ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/134 "2013-07-29T16:55:03Z")
Darryl Pierce wrote in post #1117018: > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 03:39:02PM +0900, Juha K. wrote: > > > Why not go coffeescript style and create a preprocessor gem that > > compiles indent-aware ruby into ruby? Shouldn’t be too big effort. > > To what advantage? Well, the most obvious are less typing and very compact code. We can also think about Groovy and Java, and to different extent, Dart and JavaScript. Bill ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/135 "2013-07-29T17:34:19Z")
proper indentation is good, but forcing indentation is really a stupid idea, at least from Ruby point of view. ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/136 "2013-07-29T17:36:05Z")
On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:55:05PM +0900, Admin T. wrote: > Darryl Pierce wrote in post #1117018: > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 03:39:02PM +0900, Juha K. wrote: > > > > > Why not go coffeescript style and create a preprocessor gem that > > > compiles indent-aware ruby into ruby? Shouldn’t be too big effort. > > > > To what advantage? > > Well, the most obvious are less typing and very compact code. How does additional indentation rather than using braces make for less typing or more compact code? It would seem to me to be the opposite, using spaces to define a code block makes for longer source files. I’m talking about the code that _I_ write, as opposed to the code that’s generated by some code processor. > We can > also think about Groovy and Java, and to different extent, Dart and > JavaScript. Can you explain this part to me, please? ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/137 "2013-07-29T17:39:37Z")
Am 29.07.2013 16:55, schrieb Admin T.: > Darryl Pierce wrote in post #1117018: > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 03:39:02PM +0900, Juha K. wrote: > > > > > Why not go coffeescript style and create a preprocessor gem that > > > compiles indent-aware ruby into ruby? Shouldn’t be too big effort. > > > > To what advantage? > Well, the most obvious are less typing and very compact code. Actually, readability is more important to me. And “more compact” doesn’t necessarily mean “more readable”. Also, I could easily reduce typing effort by using one-letter variable names, but I don’t. > We can > also think about Groovy and Java, and to different extent, Dart and > JavaScript. Those languages add much more, compared to simply replacing do…end by indentation. Regards, Marcus ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/138 "2013-07-29T18:55:02Z")
Traditional Ruby requires more writing? I don’t think so. A large portion of text editors (Vim, ST2, TM) automatically plop an end every time you type a def, begin, do, etc. So in terms of efficiency I don’t see the point. That and missing/improper indents could possibly break your code, meaning that if you had a way of making it more readable, that consisted of adjusting the indentation, it could break your code. I like python, a lot, it’s just not ruby, and ruby is why I sleep well at night. On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 8:39 AM, [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > Actually, readability is more important to me. And “more compact” > Regards, > Marcus > > – > GitHub: [stomar (Marcus Stollsteimer) · GitHub](https://github.com/stomar/) > PGP: 0x6B3A101A – _Richard Wilson_ Sechelt Innovations Cell - (604) 842 5318 Skype - r.crawfordwilson Email - removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid _This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the information contained on this email is prohibited._ ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/139 "2013-07-30T01:49:50Z")
Ryan D. wrote in post #1117005: > On Jul 28, 2013, at 23:39 , Juha K. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > > > Why not go coffeescript style and create a preprocessor gem that > > compiles indent-aware ruby into ruby? Shouldn’t be too big effort. > > Perhaps because we’d hate it? Otherwise we’d already be coding in > python. Just so everyone’s aware, Juha K. didn’t just spring this suggestion out of the blue. The thread to which \*e’s replying dates back to 2007. Have a browse through it some time, it’s pretty interesting. [https://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/108457](https://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/108457) ---
**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/140 "2013-07-30T03:25:06Z")
There’s something very important to understand about “Python style” indentation: Python’s approach is a subset of possible indent-sensitive grammars. It’s also incompatible with Ruby. Before anything else, I’ll say this: Haskell-style indent sensitivity could work with Ruby. So it’s not that Ruby is incompatible with indent sensitivity. It’s just the way Python implements it that’s incompatible with Ruby. Python’s indent blocks are all _statements_ (i.e. they don’t return a value). This means that you cannot embed anything indent sensitive inside any _expression_ (which does return a value) This makes it impossible to e.g. put an if statement inside of a Python lambda, since you can’t embed statements inside expressions. Ruby is a pure expression based language which doesn’t have statements. Because of this, Pythonic indent sensitivity simply won’t work, since it’s intractably tied to statements. Again, to fix this, we’d need to use Haskell-style indent sensitivity. [Previous page](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458.md?page=6) [Next page](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458.md?page=8)