# Why not adopt "Python Style" indentation for Ruby?

**URL:** <https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458>\
**Category:** Ruby\
**Created:** [May 18, 2007, 9:26am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458 "2007-05-18T09:26:28Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 8:39am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/41 "2007-05-19T08:39:06Z")

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On 5/18/07, Trans [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> > Putting a special character at the beginning of every line that is
> 
> I can’t count how many times I’ve forgotten “do”. Sometimes I have  
> wished a colon could “induce” the block:  
> That puzzles me, would you not forget the “:” then? Or do you have a  
> lot of Python experience. Not that I think bad of the “:” syntax, just  
> wondering.

Robert

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 10:31am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/42 "2007-05-19T10:31:14Z")

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“Yukihiro M.” [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote in message  
news:removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid…

> |class/module/def/do/begin), ie:
> 
> For your information, 1.9 once had exact same syntax you’ve proposed  
> for a short while. I have a time machine. The idea was abandoned  
> since it caused serious unreadability.  
> always? may be real cause was abuse of this syntax?

well, if suffix did not work,  
can we try prefix syntax for ‘end’-less constructs?  
(if not has been tried before)  
suggestion:  
:& - prefixes ‘single statement body’ code block in  
class/module/def/unless/then/else/while/until  
#- samples  
if cond :& puts a  
if cond : puts a else :& puts b  
while cond :& puts a  
for var in expr :& puts var  
# also valid:

```
if cond :& (puts a; puts b)
while cond :& begin puts a end

```

#- single statements ‘chain’  
unless cond\_a  
:& for ea in expr  
:& for eb in ezpr  
:& if cond(ea, eb)  
:& do\_smthng  
#- simple functor with local state  
class\<\<fib=Object.new  
:& def get(m)  
:& (@fh||=Hash.new{|h,n|h[n]=n\<2?n:h[n-1]+h[n-2]})[m]  
fib.get 10  
#-\> 55

BRs  
Sergey

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 1:35pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/43 "2007-05-19T13:35:32Z")

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On May 18, 2:41 pm, Jeremy H. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> On 2007-05-18, gga [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:
> 
> > No editor I am aware knows how to match indentation yet or do/end  
> > contexts (not that it could not be coded, thou).
> 
> Emacs + ruby-mode.el understands do/end just fine.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jeremy H.

No, it doesn’t. When I type a close brace in emacs, I get the  
corresponding line where the matching brace matches (hilited if  
visible in the page, or in the modeline if not).  
When I position myself next to a brace, I get the same hiliting  
happening. Can’t recall if that’s a feature of hilite or the electric  
mode of emacs.  
However, whenever I type “end” to close a block, I have NO clue where  
the block begins. And if it is code I did not write, not knowing  
where the code begins is a killer.  
Being emacs, I _could_ potentially hack the lisp code to handle do/end  
blocks properly (or indentation too). I haven’t seen anyone do it yet  
(and publically give it away).

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/44 "2007-05-19T13:30:32Z")

</div>

On May 19, 2:38 am, “Robert D.” [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> > > ~ print n  
> > > ~ puts
> 
> > I can’t count how many times I’ve forgotten “do”. Sometimes I have  
> > wished a colon could “induce” the block:
> 
> That puzzles me, would you not forget the “:” then? Or do you have a  
> lot of Python experience. Not that I think bad of the “:” syntax, just  
> wondering.

Hehe. Probably so. I’m not a hisser 😉 But I think I would forget the  
colon much less often, especially given it created indention  
significance.

T.

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/45 "2007-05-19T17:05:49Z")

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On May 18, 4:23 am, Chris D. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> …  
> with no reduction in meaning, yet 25% fewer lines of code.
> 
> What are the reasons why this isn’t used/implemented/liked? It would  
> be a small change to the interpreter. Enabling meaningful indentation  
> would only make ‘end’ optional, not invalid; backwards compatibility  
> wouldn’t be a problem.
> 
> (I use both Ruby and Python. I think indentation is one of the few  
> _language_ features where Python leads Ruby.)

I personally prefer that ‘end’ be in place, so that all ruby code is  
readable. I personally believe there may be something wrong with a  
syntax which sacrifices explicit readability (for everyone, not just  
python programmers) for increased typing speed and the illusory gain  
of ‘fewer LOC’. This was one of the major reasons which convinced me  
to use ruby instead of python.

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 8:03pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/46 "2007-05-19T20:03:11Z")

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On Sun, May 20, 2007 at 12:05:06AM +0900, Brendan wrote:

> > _language_ features where Python leads Ruby.)
> 
> I personally prefer that ‘end’ be in place, so that all ruby code is  
> readable. I personally believe there may be something wrong with a  
> syntax which sacrifices explicit readability (for everyone, not just  
> python programmers) for increased typing speed and the illusory gain  
> of ‘fewer LOC’. This was one of the major reasons which convinced me  
> to use ruby instead of python.

I, personally, don’t have an argument on principle like that for my own  
preferences in this matter. I just like the fact that an “end” makes it  
look more complete to me. Reading Python code always makes me feel like  
my eyes are just going to trail off the right-hand edge of the page  
because the “shape” of the code never brings me back to the leftmost  
edge, the way code “should”.

When I look at Python code, and ponder the way it does things so  
differently from Ruby regarding delimiters and indentation (the same  
thing in Python), it seems to me that Python was created for people who  
write code in a particular mindset, and it’s not a mindset I share when  
I’m writing code. I guess maybe some people, when writing code, think  
in footnote hierarchies, while others (like me) think in nested scopes.

That’s just an off-the-cuff hypothesis.

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/47 "2007-05-19T20:49:14Z")

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Chad P. wrote:

> > > (I use both Ruby and Python. I think indentation is one of the few  
> > > look more complete to me. Reading Python code always makes me feel like
> 
> That’s just an off-the-cuff hypothesis.

I’ve been watching this debate go by for some time, and I’m not sure  
this sort of thing can ever be solved, but here are my personal  
opinions:

1. When you come right down to it, there are only a few basic syntax  
styles that have survived the test of time. _Most_ languages, including  
C, Ruby, Pascal and Perl, use some variant of the Algol 60 syntax. The  
other “survivors” are the Lisp/Scheme variant of prefix notation,  
Forth’s postfix notation, and the regular expression syntax. I suppose  
assembly language syntax has also survived, and FORTRAN and COBOL, but I  
don’t think anyone would design a new language with those.

2. I think Python’s “variant” of Algol 60 notation is less than  
satisfactory, but I also have problems with the liberality present in  
the syntax of Perl and Ruby. I don’t like to make the reader or parser  
work any harder than necessary just for the convenience of the coder. So  
I like explicit delimiters like curly braces, parentheses, mandatory  
semicolons at the end of statements, begin/end pairs, etc. for the Algol  
60 languages. Lisp/Scheme and Forth were deliberately designed to make  
the parser’s job trivial, and I like them too. 🙂

3. I’ve pretty much given up on the dream that I’ll be able to program  
in one language only, although some languages are close enough. At the  
moment, I can get just about everything done in either Perl or R, with  
the other languages simply being fun to learn and use but not essential.  
I could probably eliminate Perl if there were more R programmers, but  
there aren’t and won’t be, because R is designed for scientists and  
mathematicians, not business people.

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 19, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/48 "2007-05-19T21:46:19Z")

</div>

Trans schrieb:

> > ~ n.times do  
> > ~ print n  
> > ~ puts
> 
> But I don’t think a line prefix is worth the trouble.

Trouble? – I want the editor to insert the prefix, of course.  
Some editors are already able to do this with line comments,  
so they can be adapted easily.

Sven

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 9:46am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/49 "2007-05-20T09:46:07Z")

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On 19.05.2007 20:48, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

> 1. I think Python’s “variant” of Algol 60 notation is less than  
> satisfactory, but I also have problems with the liberality present in  
> the syntax of Perl and Ruby. I don’t like to make the reader or parser  
> work any harder than necessary just for the convenience of the coder.

I would understand why you would want to make the reader’s job easier -  
but the parser? That’s just a piece of software and I believe that we  
should always strive to make software easier to use for humans not  
machines.

Besides of that, personally I don’t find the current Ruby syntax hard to  
read. Do you have some examples where you feel that reading Ruby is  
made hard(er) because of the liberties you mention?

Kind regards

robert

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 4:50am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/50 "2007-05-20T04:50:49Z")

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On May 18, 12:58 pm, “Eric M.” [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> > > these errors can be painful to track down in a large file with lots of  
> > > (I sometimes put debug statements flush left so that it’s a simple  
> > > /^p to search for them. Can’t do that with scope controlled by  
> > > whitespace. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.)
> 
> That is the exact same case I find the indentation thing gets in the  
> way. I had to change my way of putting in print debug statements  
> (same as yours). Every language makes you change your ways a bit. Of  
> course python’s debug facilities (pdb) are much better than ruby’s so

Well, I think that’s going to change over the next year. If you  
haven’t tried Ken Sibilev’s ruby-debug,  
[http://rubyforge.org/projects/ruby-debug/](http://rubyforge.org/projects/ruby-debug/)  
give it a shot. Over the last year it has improved quite a bit and I  
expect over the next year it will make the same steady progress. I’m  
hoping the next release will have a user manual, and possibly start  
adding some regression tests (which by the way pdb doesn’t currently  
have).

As someone who’s a little bit familiar with both debuggers, I think  
the design of ruby-debug is the cleaner and more flexible. In fact, I  
think it’s the best organized debugger of any that I’ve seen so far.  
(But then. as it grows…)

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 10:26am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/51 "2007-05-20T10:26:11Z")

</div>

Quoting Robert K. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid):

> Besides of that, personally I don’t find the current Ruby syntax hard to  
> read. Do you have some examples where you feel that reading Ruby is  
> made hard(er) because of the liberties you mention?
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> robert

I can think of three examples right off the top of my head: Rails, Rake  
and  
RSpec. There’s something really eerie about seeing code like that. You  
_know_  
it works, but you can’t figure out why or how.

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 10:36am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/52 "2007-05-20T10:36:12Z")

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On 20/05/07, removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> Quoting Robert K. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid):

> > Besides of that, personally I don’t find the current Ruby syntax hard to  
> > read. Do you have some examples where you feel that reading Ruby is  
> > made hard(er) because of the liberties you mention?

> I can think of three examples right off the top of my head: Rails, Rake and  
> RSpec. There’s something really eerie about seeing code like that. You _know_  
> it works, but you can’t figure out why or how.

And you think replacing do/end with indentation would help?

I really can’t see how - could you give an example?

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 10:12am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/53 "2007-05-20T10:12:10Z")

</div>

IMHO, at least in complicated cases, the reader has to emulate a  
parer, so both are the same.

Whenever there is syntax that’s tricky to parse, it’s also tricky to  
read.

See pythons space-vs-tab problem, for example.

Aur

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 2:02pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/54 "2007-05-20T14:02:25Z")

</div>

Trans wrote:

> On May 18, 5:22 pm, Sven S. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:
> 
> > but would provide a way to use significant indentation if one really  
> > wants to.
> > 
> > If “~” were that special character, it would look like that:  
> > ~ 5.times do |n|  
> > ~ n.times do  
> > ~ print n  
> > ~ puts
> 
> I can’t count how many times I’ve forgotten “do”. Sometimes I have  
> wished a colon could “induce” the block:
> 
> 5.times |n|:  
> n.times:  
> print n  
> puts
> 
> But I don’t think a line prefix is worth the trouble.
> 
> T.

I totally agree. A line pre-fix is a bit pointless in my opinion,  
although I am in favour in moving towards a Python-style indentation  
syntax. As for the ‘do’ issue I don’t see why it can’t be removed, if  
something is always expected then you can just assume its there, right?

5.times do |n|  
n.times do  
print n  
end  
puts  
end

(Or using the ‘:’ instead) Could just be:

5.times |n|  
n.times  
print n  
end  
puts  
end

---

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 2:39pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/55 "2007-05-20T14:39:42Z")

</div>

On 5/20/07, Peter M. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> > T.  
> > puts

Sorry, but how would you handle block\_given? without parameters?

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 2:43pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/56 "2007-05-20T14:43:42Z")

</div>

On 5/20/07, Dick D. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> And you think replacing do/end with indentation would help?
> 
> I really can’t see how - could you give an example?

Let’s try:

describe ‘myself’  
it ‘should be readable’  
lambda  
@reader.reading  
.should change  
@reader.knowledge  
.by(text.amount)

# pretty much impossible, if you ask me 🙂

# same in usual ruby now

describe ‘myself’ do  
it ‘should be readable’  
lambda{ @reader.reading }.  
should change{ @reader.knowledge }.  
by(text.amount)  
end  
end

# well?

---

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/57 "2007-05-20T16:22:16Z")

</div>

Michael F. wrote:

> On 5/20/07, Peter M. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:
> 
> > > T.  
> > > puts
> 
> Sorry, but how would you handle block\_given? without parameters?

I’m still quite new to Ruby, so I’m not entirely sure what you mean,  
could you explain what you feel the problem would be please?

---

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 4:50pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/58 "2007-05-20T16:50:54Z")

</div>

On 20/05/07, Michael F. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> On 5/20/07, Dick D. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> ```
> @reader.reading
> lambda{ @reader.reading }.
> should change{ @reader.knowledge }.
> by(text.amount)
> 
> ```
> 
> end  
> end
> 
> # well?

The only extra words there are do/end and you could replace them  
with {} if they really bothered you.

If you’re saying you personally don’t like do/end blocks, then you’re  
as entitled to that opinion as anyone else, but I don’t see this as  
making  
DSLs any more or less comprehensible personally

---

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/59 "2007-05-20T17:01:55Z")

</div>

On 5/20/07, Dick D. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> > describe ‘myself’
> 
> The only extra words there are do/end and you could replace them  
> with {} if they really bothered you.
> 
> If you’re saying you personally don’t like do/end blocks, then you’re  
> as entitled to that opinion as anyone else, but I don’t see this as making  
> DSLs any more or less comprehensible personally

uh, actually that was an example that i can’t interpret the  
indentation. I do like the idea of supporting indentation, but not  
within ruby.  
It’s just getting into a mess with method-calls with blocks, manual  
lambdas and doing methodchains like foo{bar}.duh{x} - it’s not really  
about the braces but about the possibility to write that code in a  
different syntax at all.

If someone is brighter than me, you’re welcome to propose alternatives  
🙂

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**Author:** ![chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@chrisdwan](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/chrisdwan)\
**Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 6:56pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/why-not-adopt-python-style-indentation-for-ruby/104458/60 "2007-05-20T18:56:12Z")

</div>

On May 18, 8:23 am, Chris D. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> As far as I can see, the ‘end’ keyword is ‘repeating yourself’ when  
> used with properly indented code.

Maybe it is maybe it isn’t. Personally I’m an ‘end’ man. I like my  
blocks.

It would be easier if you learnt to type, or used editor macros.

> (I use both Ruby and Python. I think indentation is one of the few  
> _language_ features where Python leads Ruby.
> 
> If this post generates a positive response, I’ll make a patch for Ruby  
> 1.9.

Nope, leave the language as it is. I like it unaltered thank you very  
much.

However I’ve never understood why there has to be ‘one true syntax’  
for any computer language. As long as the syntax generates the same  
ASTs in the interpreter I can’t see why you couldn’t choose the syntax  
you prefer - whether that is whitespace indentation, or the symbolic  
mush of the ‘C’ derived languages.

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