Ticked Off

I realise this may be a tangential issue, but if someone can’t
afford a book and is not going to buy it either way, whom has he
harmed by downloading it?

That’s like saying that you’re stuck with someone, and you’re not
going to share your food either way, so what harm is there in killing
the person now instead of letting him starve to death.

OK, maybe this analogy is obvious to other people, but can you explain
to me what on earth you’re talking about?

That’s just a
silly way of thinking.

I can agree with that! A silly way of thinking isn’t even the tip of
the iceberg. That’s madness.

In fact that’s got to be the least clearly articulated analogy I’ve
seen in years. It’s like, let’s make a comparison to something
completely unrelated, then add a bunch of really violent, emotionally
charged imagery, that way we can continue believing whatever we want
to believe without ever having to think about it.

For all the emotion involved, the reality is that in every field,
illegal downloads have an effect on sales. The effect is to increase
sales for niche players and decrease sales for mainstream players.
This has been found with movies and with music, so it’s probably the
case for code as well. Java is the mainstream player, and Rails is the
niche. Irrespective of any passionate but utterly futile moral
debates, the ultimate economic result of this phenomenon is good for
anybody selling Rails books, including David Black.

On 16/05/06, Tim B. [email protected] wrote:

Pirating a pdf is not theft. Stealing something implies that the owner is no
in possession of that object. I.e. I steal your car, you no longer have a car.
Pirating is copyright infringement. There is a difference, even if
some people in this thread are implying copyright infringement is
tantamount to murder.

Personally, I’ve always thought that there is a significant
qualitative difference between making an unlicensed copy and trolling
around the Malacca Straits with guns and knives, looting passing ships
and murdering their crews and passengers, so I try to avoid the word
‘piracy’ to describe copying a book or CD.

I try not to call it theft either. Whilst some people equate copyright
infringement with theft, they are substantively and legally different.
Whether they are morally equivalent is a different matter, though.
Confusing the vocabulary doesn’t help to advance the debate.

Paul.

On 16/05/06, Jeremy T. [email protected] wrote:

On 15-May-06, at 8:14 PM, Elliot T. wrote:

The harm there is that he would die sooner than he would if he were
left un-murdered. He loses that amount of his life. But the thing
is, who is harmed in the hypothetical case I described?

The publisher, and as a result, the author; by not getting the money
for the book.

The argument was that wasn’t going to get that money anyway.
If you’re going to compare actions to murder, at least try to pay
attention :slight_smile:

Austin Z. wrote:

On 5/16/06, Tim B. [email protected] wrote:

Pirating a pdf is not theft. Stealing something implies that the
owner is no
in possession of that object. I.e. I steal your car, you no longer
have a car.
Pirating is copyright infringement. There is a difference, even if
some people in this thread are implying copyright infringement is
tantamount to murder.

When you unlawfully deprive someone of something that is rightfully
theirs, that is theft. The act which leads to that theft may be
copyright infringement, but the end result is that something has
been stolen from the publisher and, in turn, the author.

Actually, nope. In Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207 (1985) it was
ruled in a case dealing with bootleg records that “18 U.S.C. 2314
[transport of stolen property in interstate commerce] does not apply to
this case because the rights of a copyright holder are ‘different’ from
the rights of owners of other kinds of property.” It is still a
criminal offense under the Copyright Act, but it is not theft in the
same way that taking a physical object would be: primarily because you
are depriving someone of purely hypothetical gain, what they would have
made had you purchased the copyrighted work, rather than something they
already owned.

[— cut from other message —]

Life is not that black and white, and downloading a PDF to peruse,
or
to read in its entirety, is barely different from checking out a
book
from the library or borrowing from a friend.

No, you’re wrong. With the borrowed book, you must return it. With
the
illegally copied PDF, there’s no incentive for you to delete it – or
even do the right thing and buy the book. Consider Baen’s
successful
experiment of Webscriptions. There are books that I have read from
the
free site and not turned around and bought anything further from that
author, or have not bought the paperback or hardcover books. There
are
others, though, that I have done exactly that (David Weber’s books,
certainly).

First, I want to say that I understand and agree with you. The moral
thing is to purchase the book. What I want to get across is that the
value in a book is largely in the knowledge that it contains. That
knowledge can be ascertained just as well from a borrowed version as
from a digitally copied one, and the fact that the lender doesn’t have
access to it temporarily has no effect on the copyright holder. This is
not only a gray area morally, in my opinion at least, but it is still a
sticky point in common practice. Apple’s iTunes, for example, will only
stream songs over the network to other computers 5 times per day. That
was arbitrarily put in the software to appease the record labels, and it
is trying to come somewhere between music “piracy” and “sharing”.
(Well, I think in the EU you can copy an album up to 5 times total, or
something like that, but this is 5 times per day, which is just a
decision Apple made.)

This is definitely not black and white.

That being said, I don’t envy the position of an author today. DRM is
virtually guaranteed to fail no matter what hair-brain scheme is
created, and for the vast majority of consumers it is just a major pain
in the ass. This is why I think creators of copyrighted works that can
be digitally copied are going to need to find new ways to add value,
which compel people to purchase the work. Computers, the internet and
P2P are disruptive technologies to be sure, but the benefits far
outweigh the harm. (When farming became mechanized lots of people lost
their jobs… Should we have stopped it?) The thriving musicians are
touring and sell directly to their fans, for example. Oh wait, that’s
basically what Dave T. does too…

I’m currently teaching a course based on ruby and rails, and David’s
book looks like it could be a perfect fit for the next time it’s taught.
Know where I can download it to check it out before buying 30? :slight_smile:

-Jeff

On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 21:35 +0900, Tim B. wrote:

Pirating a pdf is not theft. Stealing something implies that the owner is no
in possession of that object. I.e. I steal your car, you no longer have a car.
Pirating is copyright infringement. There is a difference, even if
some people in this thread are implying copyright infringement is
tantamount to murder.

I believe that “a person is guilty of theft if: he dishonestly
appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of
permanently depriving the other of it”*. Under those terms, I guess one
might argue piracy isn’t theft. However, to do that, you’d miss the
point - I think the ‘property’ here isn’t the intellectual property
itself, but the expected income from it’s sale. You do not buy the
intellectual property - merely the right to a copy of it.**

As a general observation, I would have to say that if you want to steal,
then steal (just remember that what goes around comes around), but don’t
try to pretend you’re any better than a common thief simply because you
steal different stuff.

  • (Actually, thats the definition under my local law)
    ** IANAL

On 5/16/06, Jeff R. [email protected] wrote:

I’m currently teaching a course based on ruby and rails, and David’s
book looks like it could be a perfect fit for the next time it’s taught.
Know where I can download it to check it out before buying 30? :slight_smile:

Sure, buy the pdf. If the reviews and sample chapters aren’t enough
for you, you can certainly afford the 20 or so bucks for an electronic
copy.

In the hands of a master, situational ethics are neither.

Yes, you can quote me on that. I do however, reserve the right to
charge for use of this quote at some point in the future.

At that time, the good people among you will either choose to not use
the quote, or pay the requested fee. The remainder will pay the rather
hefty fee of being an asshole.

I accept both forms of payment. The way I look at it, those people
willing to be assholes make me feel better about not being one. This is
valuable to me. It would be very expensive to actually pay the several
billion willing assholes on the planet to make me feel better about
myself. By stealing from me, they effectively do so for a rather small
fee.

jp

On May 16, 2006, at 5:21 AM, Kev J. wrote:

I live in the developing world, and the fact is that there are no
bookstores that carry Prag Prog titles here - they simply cost too
much for the bookstores to carry. Sadly this means that most
developers here don’t even think about spending 25-50% of their
monthly salary on a book when they can download a pdf from a p2p
network.

I don’t get this attitude at all. Either pay the asking price or
forgo the use of the book. It is really that simple. Otherwise you
are taking the work of another without any compensation. I don’t see
how your location or income changes the ethics of the situation.

Gary W.

Keith L. [email protected] writes:

I cannot afford a Mercedes. I therefore have no plans to buy one. Should
I steal one? After all, nobody really gets hurt, do they?

I know you mean well, but it really bothers me when I see copyright
infringement equivocated with theft. It’s not the same thing. It’s bad
in this case, and it’s totally illegal. Shouldn’t that be enough of
a reason?

-Phil

On 5/16/06, [email protected] [email protected] wrote:

how your location or income changes the ethics of the situation.
I get the attitude from people in developing nations where you have
the choice of 25 - 50% of your salary or not learning something new to
be able to do better by your family. I do not get the attitude from
first-world people who would have to forego a pizza or three to afford
the book.

I still think that it would be worthwhile to petition the PragProgs
to look into working with publishers in developing nations to produce
less-expensive bound copies of their books for purchase.

-austin

[email protected] writes:

Wow, I can’t believe there are actually people arguing that they
should be able to get the PDF for free.

Read the post again. He never said that; he was just arguing that
people should use the correct terms for things.

This is a black and white issue. No gray here.

Indeed. Copyright infringement is illegal. Theft is also illegal.
They just aren’t the same thing.

-Phil H.

Austin Z.

are taking the work of another without any compensation. I don’t see
how your location or income changes the ethics of the situation.

I get the attitude from people in developing nations where you have
the choice of 25 - 50% of your salary or not learning something new to
be able to do better by your family. I do not get the attitude from
first-world people who would have to forego a pizza or three to afford
the book.

Bravo! claps loudly

  • I’ve got two copies of Prog. Ruby, because it’s excelent, and I can
    afford to have one at work and one at home. If some people are going to
    copy a book (one that’s not free, as aposed to my example) so that they
    can feed their family, and better themselves, and perhaps one day join
    me in being very well off because my ancestors had a good head start in
    pillaging the world’s recourses, then good on them. When they’re rich
    and I’m poor, I hope they won’t mind me listening in on the interesting
    stuff they produce.

Pretty much my message is, I think: learn your 80:20 principle. You’re
coders aren’t you? Don’t try to chase every last penny, and maybe you’ll
find you end up with more.

…On the other hand, I used to work for a softeware company that would
have had a much better stab at life if people had bought its products
rather than using pirated versions…

To complicate things even further at a national level many countries
practice what is called “infant industry protection” whereby the country
as a whole simply disregards all international laws (including patents
and copyrights) in an area that they wish to become proficient in. The
first world got to it’s position of dominance as an industrial power by
precisely this practise and some countries are still doing this for
selected industries.

Moral? Ethical? Don’t even go there!

On 5/16/06, Giles B. [email protected] wrote:

For all the emotion involved, the reality is that in every field,
illegal downloads have an effect on sales. The effect is to increase
sales for niche players and decrease sales for mainstream players.
This has been found with movies and with music, so it’s probably the
case for code as well. Java is the mainstream player, and Rails is the
niche. Irrespective of any passionate but utterly futile moral
debates, the ultimate economic result of this phenomenon is good for
anybody selling Rails books, including David Black.

I agree that it works that way, I just don’t agree with the
perspective that you’re viewing it from. What if you change the scope
from ‘books about all programming languages’ to ‘books about ruby
and/or rails’? In the world of Ruby, and Rails, David Black is hardly
a ‘niche player’.

It might help to own a copy of ‘Ruby for Rails’ to understand why I
think that way. I’m about half way through it, and I highly recommend
that all Ruby users buy a copy. It’s an excellent book, and helps
build a stronger understanding of Ruby in general (ie: it’s not just
for Rails users).

I think Chris P.'s ‘Learn to Program’ is probably the best example
of free distribution leading to increased sales. He started out by
publishing a free tutorial, people found out that it was well written,
and was a great intro for beginners, and it eventually became a book.

Before his book was published, Chris might be considered a ‘niche
player’, he wasn’t known for any major library or framework, he wasn’t
part of the Ruby or Rails core teams, he wasn’t part of the PragProg
team, he wasn’t one of the founders of Ruby Central, etc. Now that
his book has been published, along with the fact that it was published
by PragProg, he’s no longer a ‘niche player’, at least in my mind.

I guess it comes down to who is a niche player, and personally, I
don’t think it’s right to use that subjective decision to determine
that it’s ok to download any author’s pdf, because I think they’re a
niche player, and by downloading it, I’m going to help them down the
road.

[email protected] wrote:

taking the work of another without any compensation. I don’t see how
your location or income changes the ethics of the situation.

Gary W.

Well, if you were living in a home made of dirt walls where the average
wage was $50 a month, then maybe you would “get it.” These books are
priced for your and my paychecks, not those of the vast majority of
people in the world who can not afford to let their families starve
while they try to raise themselves out of poverty by learning new
skills. Luckily many publishers do get it, which is why they offer
cheaper versions of their books.

Put it in perspective by adjusting for your own purchasing power. If
each book you purchased cost $10,000, how much do you think you would
learn about programming? Would you think the price was fair
compensation? If your families dinner table reflected your ability to
gain new skills would you think twice about downloading from the net?
Probably not.

-Jeff

[email protected] wrote:

Are you arguing that the word ‘theft’ is reserved to describe the
misappropriation of tangible goods and therefore doesn’t apply to
copyright infringement or are you trying to say that there is some
ethical difference between the two situations? I’m confused.

Gary W.

Theft: If I steal the shirt off your back you no longer have a shirt.
Copyright infringement: If I steal the design of the shirt on you back
you still have a shirt.

There is a difference and the case law to support it.

On May 16, 2006, at 11:25 AM, Phil H. wrote:

Keith L. [email protected] writes:

I cannot afford a Mercedes. I therefore have no plans to buy one.
Should
I steal one? After all, nobody really gets hurt, do they?

I know you mean well, but it really bothers me when I see copyright
infringement equivocated with theft. It’s not the same thing. It’s bad
in this case, and it’s totally illegal. Shouldn’t that be enough of
a reason?

Are you arguing that the word ‘theft’ is reserved to describe the
misappropriation of tangible goods and therefore doesn’t apply to
copyright infringement or are you trying to say that there is some
ethical difference between the two situations? I’m confused.

Gary W.

On May 16, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Peter H. wrote:

back you still have a shirt.

There is a difference and the case law to support it.

Yes, I know there is a difference but many of the posts here were
ambiguous, at best, on this point.

So we’ve clarified the terminology. It still isn’t clear to me if
you (or others) are suggesting that the two are differently ethically.

mswin32 1.8.4 windows xp sp2 español (no se si ocurre lo mismo en otros
idiomas!!)
irb inutilizable.
No se pueden escribir @, [, ], {, } entre otras…

Se resuelve:
1.8.2:
modificar c:/ruby/bin/irb.bat eliminando --readline
1.8.4*
*usar irb --noreadline, o modificar c:/ruby/bin/irb.bat y
forzar --noreadline

On 5/16/06, Peter H. [email protected] wrote:

Copyright infringement: If I steal the design of the shirt on you back
you still have a shirt.

There is a difference and the case law to support it.

Ah, but in this case, they were not stealing the design, they were
stealing a product, i.e., the pdf. While the pdf may be electronic,
it is
nevertheless a physical product - it is not just the idea or design, as
would be the case in pure copyright violation. If on the other hand they
retyped the book word for word, they would be violating copyright, as
you
say. I happen to be from the music industry. If someone copies a segment
of
one of my compositions and reproduces it in their work, they are
violating
my copyright. If on the other hand they take a copy of my recording,
either
by removing a CD from a store without purchasing it, or by downloading
it
from a network without paying for it, they are stealing.