Subject line

Ruby
61

Chad P. wrote:

  1. trying to make up for personal shortcomings by changing the way the
    list is managed
    Right.
    There. The statement is finished. Thus, it as a whole described you
    accurately.

. . . which is kind of a shitty attitude about your fellow list members.
Not about all members.
So . . . as long as you only have a shitty attitude about some list
members, you still have a good attitude. Is that it?
It might have helped if you didn’t join the discussion in such a
destructive manner, then.

I’m sorry but I feel the same as he does.
As far as I can see, nobody tried to force one way or another. We put
our vote in. I didn’t see anybody against a [WHATEVER] tag tell you that
you were doing it wrong, a luttitude, or whatever else. I have seen many
pointing you (or before you, just generically) various ways out to
improve your situation if you don’t have such a [WHATEVER] tag. Those
ways of course have also been used as arguments for why the tag would be
superfluous.
The “piss poor attitude” as you put it, and the bullying is easily only
you in my opinion, and by some previous mails I feel others think
similarly.
It would be nice if you could take your own advice and try to go back to
a less ad-hominem stance and more constructive way. I for one would much
appreciate it.
Thank you.

Regards
Stefan

62

On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 07:08:23PM +0900, Stefan R. wrote:

It might have helped if you didn’t join the discussion in such a
destructive manner, then.

I’m sorry but I feel the same as he does.
As far as I can see, nobody tried to force one way or another. We put
our vote in. I didn’t see anybody against a [WHATEVER] tag tell you that
you were doing it wrong, a luttitude, or whatever else. I have seen many
pointing you (or before you, just generically) various ways out to
improve your situation if you don’t have such a [WHATEVER] tag. Those
ways of course have also been used as arguments for why the tag would be
superfluous.

I guess you would feel privileged to be told that to solve your problems
you should change your software choices, without regard for any of the
reasons you may have chosen the software you’re using. Next time
someone
tells you that a problem you’ve run into is the fault of your choice of
text editor or IDE, the fact you’re doing things wrong, or just in your
head, keep in mind this response to me you’ve just given.

As I’ve indicated already, I have no problem with votes that don’t agree
with my preferences. I have a problem with some of the so-called
reasoning behind the votes that simply dismiss differing preferences as
someone else’s problem without any concern for whether those differing
preferences are based on real, valid concerns. If a list tag in the
subject line seems superfluous to you, that’s fine, but it doesn’t
mean
that those who find it useful are just not doing it “right” or using
old,
obsolete software and should drag themselves into the 21st century by
using gmail.

63

On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 11:49:50AM +0900, Reid T. wrote:

additionally, ( and you may already be using it ) something like
color index red black “~h ruby-talk”
in .muttrc may be of use

I’ve been using color indexes, but the nature of my work is such that I
can’t always guarantee that colors show up when I’m accessing email away
from home. Such is life.

Thanks, though, for trying to help.

64

On Sep 6, 9:17 am, Chad P. [email protected] wrote:

members, you still have a good attitude. Is that it?
superfluous.
reasoning behind the votes that simply dismiss differing preferences as
someone else’s problem without any concern for whether those differing
preferences are based on real, valid concerns. If a list tag in the
subject line seems superfluous to you, that’s fine, but it doesn’t mean
that those who find it useful are just not doing it “right” or using old,
obsolete software and should drag themselves into the 21st century by
using gmail.

–
CCD CopyWrite Chad P. [http://ccd.apotheon.org]
Brian K. Reid: “In computer science, we stand on each other’s feet.”

From what I’ve seen when skimming through this thread, I feel I may
regret this response. This time I can’t help myself.

Personally, I hardly care. If pressed to vote, I would cast down my
lot against adding a tag. I receive this list in my e-mail, filter it
to a separate folder, read what I want, and periodically delete the
entire contents of that folder. I use Google Groops to reply and to
read any messages I don’t have on hand. That’s the way I work, it
works well enough for me, and I’m not going to force it on anyone
else.

That’s not the point of this response, though. The point is what I’ve
observed:

  • You seem to be the most vocal proponent of including a tag in the
    subject line.
  • You are vehemently opposed to filtering these messages to a
    separate folder.
  • You have stated you use a set of tools (I believe it’s mutt on BSD)
    that allow you nigh-unlimited power over transforming your incoming
    mail in any way you see fit.

I know it’s been mentioned before, but it stands re-stating: couldn’t
you include whichever tag you wish in the subject line without waiting
for a decision from the list maintainer? Couldn’t you do whatever you
want with your own personal copies of these messages? Maybe you
can’t. I honestly don’t know. Or maybe you won’t.

65

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 12:34:13AM +0900, Yossef M. wrote:

I know it’s been mentioned before, but it stands re-stating: couldn’t
you include whichever tag you wish in the subject line without waiting
for a decision from the list maintainer? Couldn’t you do whatever you
want with your own personal copies of these messages? Maybe you
can’t. I honestly don’t know. Or maybe you won’t.

I’m not so rude as to send out emails to the list with the subject line
changed like that. I’ll abide by the subject line conventions of the
list, rather than introduce surprising behavior. It’s called
“courtesy”,
and I try to use it.

66

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 01:17:58AM +0900, Stefan R. wrote:

Maybe one or the other happend to chose his/her words badly. Consider
that not everybody on this list has english as his first language.

So . . . what, other people get a free pass for choosing words “badly”
(aka insultingly), but I’m an asshole for pointing that out?

67

Chad P. wrote:

I guess you would feel privileged
No need to be so aggressive.

to be told that to solve your problems
you should change your software choices

If somebody told me how I could go at a problem in a different way I
would
-be thankful that he/she gives me another view
-realize that it is his opinion how it would be better
-he in no way forces me to do use his idea by simply telling it
-I can stay with my old way all to my liking, but that I have to
remember that it was my choice if that’s not working optimally with the
situation I’m in

without regard for any of the reasons you may have chosen the software you’re using.

Calm down, view the first few messages again, and you’ll see that people
actually first asked nicely if you couldn’t do X or Y. You OTOH
started biting fairly quickly in response.
Also as far as I can see nobody said “Your software is stupid, use
another” but said “with the one I use, I can do it using X”, maybe
asked, “can’t yours?”. Quite different from how you like to portray it.
Maybe one or the other happend to chose his/her words badly. Consider
that not everybody on this list has english as his first language.

Regards
Stefan

68

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 02:38:36AM +0900, Stefan R. wrote:

line of being an accident.
But of course, it’s the others, not you.

I didn’t say it was accidental. I said I was pointing out when someone
chose words that appear calculated to insult.

. . . but of course, I couldn’t have meant what I said – I must have
meant what you wanted me to say, so it’s easier to blame me for the ills
of the world. That’s called a “straw man”, by the way.

69

[Chad P. [email protected], 2007-09-05 16.10 CEST]
[…]

  1. I can munge the subject line before it hits my inbox using tools
    available to me as a FreeBSD user – tools including Ruby, procmail,
    Perl, and other options. This would suit me perfectly, but because I
    tend to be more courteous than that, I won’t take that approach. I’m
    sure you’d all love to see every message I send to the list suddenly
    start appearing with [Rb] at the beginning of the subject line. Also,
    the fact I can do this doesn’t address the preferences of others who
    may be using more crippled MUAs and OS platforms.

Just add, in your .procmailrc, a rule to add a header “X-Label:
ruby-talk”
to all messages from this list. Then, in your .muttrc, add “%?y?[%y]?”
somewhere in your index_format variable (before %s is a good place).

Good luck.

70

On 9/6/07, Chad P. [email protected] wrote:

list, rather than introduce surprising behavior. It’s called “courtesy”,
and I try to use it.

Who said anything about sending out emails like that? When the email
comes in, you prepend whatever tag you want, when you reply you strip
the tag before sending it. (All automated, presumably).

71

Chad P. wrote:

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 01:17:58AM +0900, Stefan R. wrote:

Maybe one or the other happend to chose his/her words badly. Consider
that not everybody on this list has english as his first language.

So . . . what, other people get a free pass for choosing words “badly”
(aka insultingly), but I’m an asshole for pointing that out?

I think wording like “piss poor attitude” is rather clearly crossing the
line of being an accident.
But of course, it’s the others, not you.

Regards
Stefan

72

[Chad P. [email protected], 2007-09-07 15.23 CEST]

may be using more crippled MUAs and OS platforms.

Just add, in your .procmailrc, a rule to add a header “X-Label: ruby-talk”
to all messages from this list. Then, in your .muttrc, add “%?y?[%y]?”
somewhere in your index_format variable (before %s is a good place).

I imagine that’d be aesthetically kind of noxious, with the way only one
mailing list would have the tag outside the subject line and the rest of
them would have it in the subject line,

If they are next to each other, and starting on the same column, I don’t
know how you can tell the difference.

and the way it would be repeated
even on later emails in the thread – but maybe I’ll develop a taste for
it.

Just use %Y instead of %y.

At least one good thing has come from this thread: my complacency about
the suboptimal (for me) arrangement of the subject line has been shaken
up a bit, and I’m experimenting with ways to fix the problem again.

Great.

73

On Fri, Sep 07, 2007 at 04:43:40AM +0900, Carlos wrote:

Just add, in your .procmailrc, a rule to add a header “X-Label: ruby-talk”
to all messages from this list. Then, in your .muttrc, add “%?y?[%y]?”
somewhere in your index_format variable (before %s is a good place).

I imagine that’d be aesthetically kind of noxious, with the way only one
mailing list would have the tag outside the subject line and the rest of
them would have it in the subject line, and the way it would be repeated
even on later emails in the thread – but maybe I’ll develop a taste for
it.

At least one good thing has come from this thread: my complacency about
the suboptimal (for me) arrangement of the subject line has been shaken
up a bit, and I’m experimenting with ways to fix the problem again.

74

On Sat, Sep 08, 2007 at 02:08:56AM +0900, Carlos wrote:

[Chad P. [email protected], 2007-09-07 15.23 CEST]

I imagine that’d be aesthetically kind of noxious, with the way only one
mailing list would have the tag outside the subject line and the rest of
them would have it in the subject line,

If they are next to each other, and starting on the same column, I don’t
know how you can tell the difference.

I wasn’t aware that would insert it into the same column. Oops.

and the way it would be repeated
even on later emails in the thread – but maybe I’ll develop a taste for
it.

Just use %Y instead of %y.

Good advice. Thanks.

75

In short, it looks like people on average would prefer it stay the way
it
is. I never imagined this would receive so much response and debate.
Thanks
for responding.

76

forgottenwizard wrote:

Just a quick question; Why not add in the X-ML-Name (it was refered to
earlier in this thread) to the header? It may not be a fix-all, but
wouldn’t that come close enough for what some people want to see within
the subject line?

These are already in the headers that are sent from the ruby-talk
listserv:

X-ML-Name: ruby-talk
X-Mail-Count: 268195

So, it’s there, if you want to use it.

77

On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 12:32:01PM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

Yes … that part of it I know … UNIX as a way for researchers to get
lots of work done with text files, “grep” standing for “Generalized
Regular Expression Processor”, etc. The part I don’t know is how it went
from Kleene, an obscure computational structure equivalent to finite
state machines, an exercise in undergraduate automata theory textbooks,
etc., to a practical tool like “grep”, and I don’t know why it “caught on”.

I don’t know how it worked its way into a basic utility like grep, but I
figure it “caught on” because of how unbelievably useful it is.

78

On 9/7/07, Altay G. [email protected] wrote:

So why not append [RUBY] to the subject? That way, folks with skinny
screens won’t lose actual subject content (the only thing that gets pushed
off the screen is the label), and folks who want to filter by subject can
still do so.

Unless there’s some technical reason why this won’t work, the only problem I
see is aesthetic. =P

The only benefit of preceding the subject with a [RUBY], as far as I
can tell, lies solely in aesthetics. I can see why someone who
chooses to not sequester away ruby emails might want to quickly
glance at the screen and visually see which emails are ruby/non-ruby.

For those who do filter and section their mail into their respective
bins, I would think that – as others have mentioned – it would be
trivial to sort by some other method than forcing redundant data into
the subject line.

I don’t care either way, since I only use this email account for this
list.

Todd

79

On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 09:48:00PM +0900, Peter C. wrote:

I vote against. Those with the firehose of ruby-talk gushing into their
singular inbox is probably an e-mail masochist and enjoys it :slight_smile: That said,
whatever the majority decides, although this all rather sounds like change
for change’s sake.

I have ruby-talk in my primary inbox basically because if I let it dump
into a separate “folder” I’ll end up ignoring it. “Oh, there’s too much
there for me to deal with right now – I’ll get to it later.” Then, of
course, “later” never comes. If I want to ignore ruby-talk, I’ll just
unsubscribe again.

Judging by what I’ve seen here, the pattern for votes against something
like [RUBY-TALK], [RUBY], or even [RT] in the subject line boils down to
two things:

  1. Too many characters! Oh noes!

  2. I do it this way to deal with that. You should be able to do
    something like that, too, and if you can’t you’re using the wrong MUA.

I find the first at least logically valid, even if I find it difficult
to
be sympathetic with the holocaust of lost characters. The second, on
the
other hand, seems quite without merit. Different people find different
practices provide them with greater convenience and productivity.
Accusing people of masochism, stupidity, or luddite avoidance of what
you
consider to be the “right” type of MUA is kind of a narrow, and even
offensive, approach to disagreeing. It should probably be avoided.

The only argument against it that I’ve seen that might convince me is
the
one that relates to forum and newsgroup gateways. Too bad all that has
happened there is someone said it might be a problem, and nobody has
confirmed it. Unless and until someone does so, I’ll just consider it a
remote possibility, and generally ignore it as an attempt to obfuscate
the matter in hopes of derailing any attempts to add something like [RT]
to the subject line (or even [R], now that I think about it – though
maybe that should be reserved for the R language, which makes me think
[RB] might be more appropriate to this list).

Now, to be a little less careful in tone:

I don’t think I’ve ever seen this much wailing and moaning over a
handful
of characters in a subject width in my life. Considering the massive
benefits it would grant to those of us who find ourselves inconvenienced
by implementing a list-identifier in the subject line, I find it
exceedingly difficult to give a hot damn about a few characters. If
you’re worried about subject line length, get on the case of people who
post a damned paragraph for the subject line. There’s far too much of
that going on around here.

80

On 08:50 Sat 08 Sep , Devi Web D. wrote:

In short, it looks like people on average would prefer it stay the way it
is. I never imagined this would receive so much response and debate. Thanks
for responding.

Daniel Brumbaugh K.
Devi Web D.
[email protected]

Just a quick question; Why not add in the X-ML-Name (it was refered to
earlier in this thread) to the header? It may not be a fix-all, but
wouldn’t that come close enough for what some people want to see within
the subject line?