Stop developing Rails!

I’ve to agree to a certain extent with Bob. I started developing on
Rails couple of months ago and almost stopped entirely due to the lack
of relevant and up to date online literature. The API page is no better
(if not worse) than JavaDocs, which is to say pretty useless. Most, if
not all, of the available tutorials are outdated and incompatible with
newer versions of Rails. DaveThomas’ book is great to be sure, but not
a substitute for readily available online lit. When you’re trying to
get people on board, you need to make sure those people have all they
need in order to be productive and start using your framework in a
real-world fashion. By not having robust (and up to date) literature
you simply are implicitily fending off would-be adopters. It’s not a
matter of being lazy or not putting some effort, it’s a matter of
getting past the hype and hooplah and opening the framework to everyone
who wants to take a stab at it.

Bob ha escrito:

I think halting development of Rails is the last thing anyone should
want. I’ll have to presume you were being facetious. There have been
many good points in this thread, but “the docs suck” was not one of
them. I get blocked on things periodically, and find it difficult to
pull out of the usual resources, but more often than not the patterns
are predictable and once I’ve figured it out, I get a “d’oh” moment
when I realize it was documented all along, but not in the place I
expected.

Look, Microsoft throws hundreds of thousands of dollars at
documentation and the ASP.Net documentation is nearly impossible to
use. Certainly, it’s no more than a catalog of methods and
attributes. You’re reduced to Google and MSDN searches if you want
any context. Or a bookshelf full of $45-75 (USD) books that try to
make sense of the overall usage of the framework.

Rails is supposed to be a snap, but like most other frameworks, there
are:

  • Configuration options on the machine and if you aren’t used to
    setting up servers, etc. it’s another learning curve
  • Ruby. Ok, it’s a different language. Ruby is seductively easy to
    use for simple tasks, but can have nuances that are not immediately
    apparent
  • Rails. It’s a framework. There is a set of patterns Rails
    addresses. The API documentation is reasonable if not exhaustive
    about how Rails addresses the problem domain it covers. There is so
    much enthusiasm for Rails that the Net is full of articles and new
    books are coming out with increased frequency.

Over time, the documentation is sure to improve, but Rails may not be
for everyone. If you’re trying to tie a few Web pages together
programmatically, PHP may be lower hanging fruit and a more
comfortable solution. If you are going for a real Web application and
don’t mind chasing a dynamic, young framework, then Rails may be the
most exciting place to put your learning skills to work.

How about starting a page on the Wiki called
“ObscureOrUndocumentedIssues” so anyone with a little extra bandwidth
can try to fill in some gaps?

My $.02

David M. wrote:

in the Agile Web development book are “MANY” bugs - which doesnt
it is doing.
[email protected]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFFT2DBUy30ODPkzl0RAs4iAKDQGbvCcspUGQwBeU4yqStCqlvTbgCfbnLh
OR+ijMbP6lxM/8fA/ajYIvo=
=QERo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

The problems with documentation are not new, in fact some people are
actually trying to do something about it by hiring a professional to
spend some quality time with the docs.

http://blog.caboo.se/pages/documentation_drive

_Kevin

"I still think this is the matter of being lazy. Also, I do not think
it is a good
idea to open it to everyone. "

Very opinionated answer there. I’m sure the developers of Rails DO WANT
to give access to whoever wants it. If you don’t, I strongly advise to
start your own framework with your own exclusive rules.

On Nov 6, 2006, at 9:52 AM, Jeremy McAnally wrote:

You say you a poor college student, I am sure you’ve made worse
decisions with your loan money then spending $20 for the PDF or
$40 for the book.

Heh, yeah. I’m sure single college students probably do, but being
married and having to actually pay bills with a monthly income that
can be described as dismal (i.e., like half the poverty level), it’s
very difficult for me to release that much money for something like a
book about a web development framework.

I want to make it completely clear that what I’m about to say is not
meant to be condescending at all, merely a statement of fact and my
observations.

If you live in the United States, or anywhere else in the world that
practices some form of capitalism, you need to understand that lack
of capital is going to bring substantial disadvantages to those with
capital. After all, it’s literally the name of the game.

The good news is that if you’re willing to risk the $20-40 of capital
and buy the wonderful documentation available, then you should be able
to gain a subtantial improvement in your monthly income that will more
than offset the price of the docs.

Hang in there. Starving student is a difficult role to play. Rails
should be able to improve your lot substantially.


– Tom M., CTO
– Engine Y., Ruby on Rails Hosting
– Reliability, Ease of Use, Scalability
– (866) 518-YARD (9273)

I am really interested in coding in rails and leave ASP for ever behind

  • because the modell behavior is really great but the way is hard. Also
    in the Agile Web development book are “MANY” bugs - which doesnt make it
    easier.

Let’s set the record straight. There are NOT many bugs in the Agile
Web D. book. The framework has changed significantly since
the first edition was written. That’s no the fault of the author. The
rewrite is available as a beta book. Purchase that one and you’ll get
the latest info and the final version when it’s done.

Michael

<…>

It’s not a
matter of being lazy or not putting some effort, it’s a matter of
getting past the hype and hooplah and opening the framework to everyone
who wants to take a stab at it.
<…>

I still think this is the matter of being lazy. Also, I do not think
it is a good
idea to open it to everyone.

“These people should not be helped. There is an informal
mountaineering rule that you never help incompetents up a mountain to
killed higher up, only down, to get out alive.”

http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2003/04/03/Bruce-Eckel-said-SOAP-sucks#c1049439459

Regards,
Rimantas

http://rimantas.com/

So now we take advice on how to treat users and fellow developers from
a Java guy?

I’m sure you can fork Rails and have fun with your “smart” community
of people who “get it.” I’m pretty sure the Rails core would rather
leave theirs open.

–Jeremy

From: David M. [email protected]
On Nov 6, 2006, at 10:01 AM, Andreas S. wrote:

It is really hard to find the right path. For me that I am coming from
the ASP Classic world it is even harder - because I think in a total
different way.

I think this is probably the most insightful point…

I agree - coming from the Java world, it took me a while to understand
some
of the philosophy behind ROR. It was almost a month before I realized I
didn’t have to download gems before installing. It took me longer to
understand the philosophy behind Java. Although I have dozens of books
on
Java, the ones I have on Ruby and Rails are as good as any on Java.

My thanks goes out to the people who have worked on the documentation -
excellent job. While there is always room for improvement, I have found
all
the answers I’ve needed in my 2 months of using ruby and rails every day

until today, hence my first post to the mailing list.

I look forward to the day I can contribute to both the code and the
documentation. Perhaps I can help with the overviews soon.

Ric Turley

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jeremy McAnally wrote:

It’s stupid and arrogant to
say, “Well if they don’t get it, they’re just stubborn.”

I didn’t say that people who don’t get it are stubborn. I am weary of
people who don’t want to get it.

In a way I like the lack of beginner level documentation. I know it limits the growth of Ruby and/or Rails, but you at least get
people who you know actually understand the langauge/technology and not those who just know how-to copy/paste.

That’s just selfish and, really, childish. “Let’s keep the stupids
out!” Sheesh.

I didn’t say “Let’s keep the stupids out”. I am weary of programmers who
know how-to copy/paste code from tutorials but don’t take
the time to understand how it works.

Again I say, this is the attitude that makes people hate Perl.

This is a blank statement. I am a person, and I am included in the above
“people”. The attitude and belief that people learn or
try-to-learn a language/framework that they are going to use (or say
they know how-to use) is not one that makes me hate Perl (or
any language community).

Rails is young compared to other languages and frameworks, documentation
will come over time. Asking for them is not a bad thing,
but sometimes how people ask (or demand) for things can really rub the
community the wrong way.

As other people have pointed out this thread, there are lots of books
coming from lots of publishers. And just because it isn’t
free doesn’t mean it should be overlooked. At some point you’ll have to
weigh in the opportunity cost for buying a book and not
buying a book, save $5 a week, and in a month you’ll be able to buy the
PDF.

If there is a local RUG in your area, perhaps they will give or share a
book with you. I collected pop cans to buy my first
nintendo, it can be done. Where there is a will, there is a way, no one
said it would be free or easy.

Zach
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFT4MAMyx0fW1d8G0RAomPAJ4iUcgHxscVA9RfIVIM5NU35LMNJwCff+L/
7rl+V+z1pQN8TJnznrOCpbE=
=CvOO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Rdoc does an amazing job of self documenting uncommented code

No other languages core documentation even comes close to facilitating
that

here:
http://rubyonrails.org/docs
http://www.ruby-doc.org/core
http://www.ruby-doc.org/stdlib

That said rails has some fragmentation issues in this area.

I usually come across these when looking for examples and tutorials for
plugins and gems.

I guess I could generate the documentation for the plugins myself but im
lazy

I didn’t say that people who don’t get it are stubborn. I am weary of people who don’t want to get it.

But let’s be frank here, how many people are like that? Some people
simply don’t make the connection between some things; trust me, I
worked as a sysadmin/help desk person for a computer science
department. Some people can write amazing thesis projects that blow
my mind, but can’t connect that information with real-to-life
situations. I think it’s the same with the documentation. Sure, show
me a recipe book application, but what can those concepts do for me?

I didn’t say “Let’s keep the stupids out”. I am weary of programmers who know how-to copy/paste code from tutorials but don’t take
the time to understand how it works.

I fail to see how beginner documentation inhibits that?

This is a blank statement. I am a person, and I am included in the above “people”. The attitude and belief that people learn or
try-to-learn a language/framework that they are going to use (or say they know how-to use) is not one that makes me hate Perl (or
any language community).

No. The attitude of “RTFM!” or “If you don’t get it you’re just
stupid” is what makes people (e.g., me) hate much of the community
around Perl and Lisp and other “elitist” (generalization, I know)
languages. People saying that we don’t need documentation to keep
people out who need it are exhibitng that same attitude.

–Jeremy

I understand that, but I also don’t see why that has to be the case.
Call me a community or a hippie, but if there is the possibility of
this information being available to everyone, then why avoid it?
Maybe it’s not the people trying to learn that are lazy or stubborn
but we the community who are refusing to offer this to everyone.

The good news is that if you’re willing to risk the $20-40 of capital
and buy the wonderful documentation available, then you should be able
to gain a subtantial improvement in your monthly income that will more
than offset the price of the docs.

Of course, but the money is just one issue…time is another story. :wink:

–Jeremy

Incidentally, you should check your local public library (and school
library, since I believe you mentioned being a student) to see if they have
AWDWR. If they do, you have access to the book at no cost. If not, most
librarians (both public and academic) are delighted to get feedback from
patrons on what books they’d like to see. Generally, librarians make
guesses on what to purchase based on their own preferences or what they’ve
heard from their friends, but can order and have a book on the shelves
within a month if there is a request from a patron (and the book isn’t
hideously expensive). Make friends with your librarians; they are there to
help you and the good ones are eager to do so.

A lot of libraries can do inter-library transfers as well, which opens
it
up to just about every library in the country. My sister in law in
Hershey, PA regularly gets books from the new york library through her
local library…

Someone’s gotta have it :slight_smile:

On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 10:30:55AM -0500, Jeremy McAnally wrote:
} You are severely disturbed if you think that Google and the (current)
} API docs are all you need to learn Rails. I don’t think API docs are a
} good place to point newbies; I think RDocs are great for people who
} “get it” but need a little nudging.

We call those people who “get it” programmers. Google will find you the
first edition of AWDWR which is free for download. That will teach you
the
basic concepts behind of Rails (MVC, convention over configuration,
app/*
directories, ActiveRecord, etc.). The rest is just the API, which is
reasonably well documented online.

Failing that, there is the source itself. If you understand Ruby well
enough to use Rails effectively, you understand it well enough to read,
comprehend, and even introspect the Rails source code. Of course, many
people are coming to Rails without strong Ruby knowledge; that’s fine,
and
they are encouraged to buy books and read the mailing list archives and
learn both Ruby and Rails.

} I agree with the OP. Rails’ docs suck for over half of the people who
} are going to come to Rails. This is why we have a lot people asking
} questions on the mailing list that could/should be answered by quality
} documentation. I’m working on trying to fix this documentation
} conundrum that with my books, but I’m only one person and the
} featureset is so fluid that it’s hard (at this point, impossible) to
} keep up.
}
} I think it’s kind of ridiculous to ask someone to pay $40 for book to
} be able to use your framework because your documentation is terrible.
} I really hope that the documentation drive takes off and produces
} something useful.

Translation: Despite having provided this excellent web application
framework into which you have invested many hours of work at no charge,
you
suck because I have to pay money for documentation of a quality similar
to
that of the framework itself. I am unwilling to dedicate any time,
effort,
or money to learning to use this excellent product; it is your
responsibility to spoonfeed it to me at no charge.

This translation is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I hope it points out
the
absurdity of complaining about the cost of documentation for free (and
Free) software.

} I apologize for the rant.

Accepted.

Incidentally, you should check your local public library (and school
library, since I believe you mentioned being a student) to see if they
have
AWDWR. If they do, you have access to the book at no cost. If not, most
librarians (both public and academic) are delighted to get feedback from
patrons on what books they’d like to see. Generally, librarians make
guesses on what to purchase based on their own preferences or what
they’ve
heard from their friends, but can order and have a book on the shelves
within a month if there is a request from a patron (and the book isn’t
hideously expensive). Make friends with your librarians; they are there
to
help you and the good ones are eager to do so.

} --Jeremy
–Greg

We call those people who “get it” programmers.

Do we? There are a lot of aspects of many programming languages that
I don’t understand yet. LISP, for example, blows my mind. It’s not
that I don’t think I couldn’t get it, I just haven’t found something
that explains the concepts in terms low enough that a lowly
former-C#-programmer-turned-Ruby can understand.

Same problem here. I’ve talked to a number of people who just can’t
put the pieces together from the free resources available. It’s
nothing that’s a tragedy, it’s just a fact.

Google will find you the
first edition of AWDWR which is free for download. That will teach you the
basic concepts behind of Rails (MVC, convention over configuration, app/*
directories, ActiveRecord, etc.). The rest is just the API, which is
reasonably well documented online.

Are you sure? I haven’t been able to find that legally.

Failing that, there is the source itself. If you understand Ruby well
enough to use Rails effectively, you understand it well enough to read,
comprehend, and even introspect the Rails source code. Of course, many
people are coming to Rails without strong Ruby knowledge; that’s fine, and
they are encouraged to buy books and read the mailing list archives and
learn both Ruby and Rails.

Right, but I’m sure a lot of people aren’t community oriented. They
can learn Ruby from the first edition Pickaxe (I did), but asking them
to join mailing lists and forums because the docs aren’t very good
isn’t a good thing (in my opinion). Perhaps I’m a shade more
antisocial than most, though.

Translation: Despite having provided this excellent web application
framework into which you have invested many hours of work at no charge, you
suck because I have to pay money for documentation of a quality similar to
that of the framework itself. I am unwilling to dedicate any time, effort,
or money to learning to use this excellent product; it is your
responsibility to spoonfeed it to me at no charge.

Is “spoonfeeding” so much to ask for from someone? PHP manages to
do it. Java manages to do it. Python does it. Heck, Django is doing
it. We can’t? I’m not criticizing the core team; I’m just throwing
out the fact that the docs aren’t very conducive to learning with.

My point: when people like you and others who have posted here just
say, “well if they don’t get it from what’s available TOO BAD,” just
save the keystrokes and help write some documentation so the next time
someone asks a question like that they will either already know the
answer or you can refer the to the documentation specifically.

–Jeremy

None of ours do actually; I checked when I first became interested in
Rails and just checked again. I put in a “request” a while back (a
lot of good those do), but I haven’t seen anything of it yet. They
have 5-6 python books, so I’m hopeful!

–Jeremy

I have read this and would recommend it to anyone trying to understand
RJS.

Regards,
John

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

  1. Good documentation is great. I am not advocating there we don’t write
    documentation as a community. I am advocating that people
    suggesting that rails development stop so the rails-core folks can write
    documentation are requesting something ridiculous.

  2. I never said people are stupid. I said people are stubborn, and that
    people who don’t want to learn what they are using, bother me.

  3. I never said RTFM.

The following things are bothersome:

  1. Programmers who blame not getting over a obstacle or a concept on
    everyone else. The mentality of “it’s because the community
    didn’t have good enough documentation for me” doesn’t fly. How many ruby
    / rails programmers are there they had less documentation
    then that which is already out there now, but somehow managed to learn
    it. (do note, this is not stating that there shouldn’t be
    documentation or more documentation)

  2. Programmers who think that somehow they are entitled to everything
    for free.

  3. Helping people who want to be helped is awesome. Spoon feeding people
    who are too lazy to spend a few minutes trying to figure
    something out is annoying.

  4. Programmers who don’t want to excel in their craft, and lack the
    motivation to do anything about it.

  5. Programmers who think every concept should click right away, and
    complain if it doesn’t. Some concepts you understand through
    experience. If you lack experience then don’t expect to get everything.

It is not my job or anyone else’s job to make you get it. The community
will help you along the way, but don’t blame the community
on your ability or unwillingness to take the time to understand things.
If there is a concept you don’t get post it to the ML, or
to ruby-forum.

You are responsible for your own success, and so are those that you know
who won’t try rails. If they dont’ take a few minutes to
check it out, it’s their own fault, not mine and not the communities.

Zach

Jeremy McAnally wrote:

I didn’t say “Let’s keep the stupids out”. I am weary of programmers who know how-to copy/paste code from tutorials but don’t take
around Perl and Lisp and other “elitist” (generalization, I know)
I didn’t say that people who don’t get it are stubborn. I am weary of people who don’t want to get it.

Again I say, this is the attitude that makes people hate Perl.

If there is a local RUG in your area, perhaps they will give or share a book with you. I collected pop cans to buy my first
nintendo, it can be done. Where there is a will, there is a way, no one said it would be free or easy.

Zach

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFT5p/Myx0fW1d8G0RAopdAJ9zBkqPJJinQ23YJ3klNmdGkhkkLgCeNQ6W
Dmtk+6NRa2iRQML830fmXcU=
=u07O
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jeremy McAnally wrote:

My point: when people like you and others who have posted here just
say, “well if they don’t get it from what’s available TOO BAD,” just
save the keystrokes and help write some documentation so the next time
someone asks a question like that they will either already know the
answer or you can refer the to the documentation specifically.

If you don’t get something and someone explains it to you and you get
it, you could also write some documentation for the next
person. That would show your appreciation for the person who took the
time out to help you get it.

Zach
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFT5yeMyx0fW1d8G0RAnq2AJ9MrcrShk/2aDJLNAT8RmatK+DOMwCfT1nO
vN11bOutxkwrX0lMWR2NtP8=
=/sKu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----