"Start spreading the news"

On 9/08/2010, at 6:42 PM, Jimmy S. wrote:

This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0 release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should ask Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
Be clear about their intentions. I know this will eventually happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first step.
Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity (again, assuming they don’t plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned by Microsoft. The GitHub “ironruby” organization is managed by Microsoft. Etc, etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so that we don’t need to jointly own the copyright. There also is precedence in Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.

+1

This seems like an ideal fit for something like the Codeplex foundation,
and as far as I can think, it would solve pretty much all the current
uncertainty around the future of IR :slight_smile:

Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic
twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention.

First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak on
behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for
all
the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in and
“cooled” down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this are
well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with the
mushy stuff …

The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is just
going through that normal cycle. I’m grateful to Microsoft for not only
employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind that
Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it
seems
my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let’s just assume what we
suspect
to be true unless told otherwise.

This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to
rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0
release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should
ask
Microsoft to commit to during this transition:

  1. *Be clear about their intentions. *I *know *this will eventually
    happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the
    first
    step.
  2. *Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity *(again, assuming they
    don’t plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under
    an
    open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned
    by
    Microsoft. The GitHub “ironruby” organization is managed by
    Microsoft. Etc,
    etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit
    foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal,
    so
    that we don’t need to jointly own the copyright. There also is
    precedence in
    Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex
    foundation, so
    Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.

In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I’m
not
the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else you’d
like
to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and let’s
discuss it. I’m hoping my leaving announcement will speed this process
along, so assume we have little time to provide “demands”.

After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run the
project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we
need to
accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the
time
we’d like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do
=)).
But let’s try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now. I’ve also
hinted
at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact
me if
you’re interested). Also, feel free to still have the important
conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I
suggesting
people stop talking.

Cory mentioned that my “leadership and vision” was lost. I think you’re
taking my job too seriously =P … but joking aside, I just wanted to
move
back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or
IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants
to
step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and write
code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I’ll
still want to work on IronRuby. =)

This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
everyone’s support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but
directed.
Continue discussing “why IronRuby”. Work in your private fork, take
shots at
fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they’ll eventually
get
integrated back. Continue blogging about how you’re using IronRuby. Show
the
world that regardless of Microsoft’s position, the community is what
makes
the project live.

Now, discuss!

~Jimmy

+1

+1 on being patient and see how we can shape the project and run a
more community-driven ironruby, I think it’s too early and rushed to
start thinking about a fork (ferb or whatever). I’m on vacation right
now so I can’t do much, I’ll be back in a week and see how I can help
with anything.

2010/8/9, Jimmy S. [email protected]:

The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so

Cory mentioned that my “leadership and vision” was lost. I think you’re
fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they’ll eventually get

Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular

Thanks, Orion
there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they

  1. Silverlight (
    Jimmy Schementi > MIX10, Part 3 - Using dynamic languages in existing web-applications
    if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say
    More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I
    On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo B. [email protected]

Eduardo B.

just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly reorganization.
This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to ask
movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to
shame.
Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core


Daniele A.
http://clorophilla.net/
http://twitter.com/JoL1hAHN

If you’re looking for better Enterprise “adoption”, I would say the lack
of
Visual Studio integration is a big sticking point. Perhaps you are
implying
that when you talk about Microsoft support.

I built a few minor apps in IronRuby with Winforms as the GUI layer. It
worked, but it was not as “easy” as it was with C#.

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Michael L.
<[email protected]

Well, we’ve seen a few plus-ones on talking to Microsoft about their
intentions for IronRuby.

Tomas or Jim, since you’re both still on the inside, perhaps one of you
could speak, on behalf of the community, with someone at Microsoft who
can
clarify for us what their intentions are?


Will G.
http://hotgazpacho.org/

My biggest concern at this point is that Microsoft make clear what
their intentions are with regards to the IronRuby project, the state
of limbo that exists in untenable.

One of the concerns I hear often is how the DLR is handled as well…
is that pretty stable at this point, I was under that impression.

The saddest thing about this whole episode is really how unsurprising
it is, at least for those that have been paying attention for a while.

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:42 AM, Jimmy S. [email protected]
wrote:

going through that normal cycle. I’m grateful to Microsoft for not only
want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first step.
In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I’m not
you’re interested). Also, feel free to still have the important
This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Jim D. [email protected] wrote:

Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
On question I’d REALLY like answered is this:
On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge [email protected]

to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping
2. Embedded Scripting

about what to do.

caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against IronRuby, but
since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn’t be controlled.
are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned
take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that’s a

http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core


Ironruby-core mailing list
[email protected]
http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core


Michael L.
IronRuby MVP
http://blog.prokrams.com

In-case anyone is living under a rock, this thread has just become much
more
relevant; here’s why:
blogs.msdn.com/b/jasonz/archive/2010/10/21/new-components-and-contributors-for-ironpython-and-ironruby.aspx

In short, Miguel de Icaza and I will be helping the community guide
IronRuby, while us plus Michael F. and Jeff H. will help guide
IronPython. Also, IronRuby 1.1.1 has been released, which finally
includes
IronRuby tools for Visual Studio and the latest work towards 1.9
compatibility. I believe Tomas will send mail about the specifics
shortly.

~Jimmy

Let’s not push Tomas or Jim to say anything; This is a big enough issue
that
I’m sure Microsoft’s PR firms are working on this. Again, I suggest we
be
patient for the next week.

~Jimmy

This is awesome. The news puts a smile on my face. Super cool.

Brian

On Oct 21, 2010 8:38 PM, “Jimmy S.” [email protected] wrote:

In-case anyone is living under a rock, this thread has just become much
more
relevant; here’s why:

blogs.msdn.com/b/jasonz/archive/2010/10/21/new-components-and-contributors-for-ironpython-and-ironruby.aspx

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Jimmy S. <[email protected]
wrote:

Let’s not push Tomas or Jim to say anything; This is a big enough issue
that I’m sure Microsoft’s PR firms are working on this. Again, I suggest
we
be patient for the next week.

~Jimmy

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Will G. [email protected]
wrote:

Well, we’ve seen a few plus-ones on talking to Microsoft about their
intentions for IronRuby.

Tomas or Jim, since you’re both still on the inside, perhaps one of you
could speak, on behalf of the community, with someone at Microsoft who
can

Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic
twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention.

First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak
on
behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for
all
the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in
and
“cooled” down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this are
well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with
the
mushy stuff …

The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is
just
going through that normal cycle. I’m grateful to Microsoft for not only
employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind
that
Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it
seems
my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let’s just assume what we
suspect
to be true unless told otherwise.

This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community,
to
rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0
release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should
ask
Microsoft to commit to during this transition:

  1. *Be clear about their intentions. *I *know *this will eventually
    happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the
    first
    step.
  2. *Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity *(again, assuming they
    don’t plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an
    open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned
    by
    Microsoft. The GitHub “ironruby” organization is managed by Microsoft.
    Etc,
    etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit
    foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal,
    so
    that we don’t need to jointly own the copyright. There also is
    precedence in
    Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation,
    so
    Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.

In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I’m
not
the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else you’d
like
to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and let’s
discuss it. I’m hoping my leaving announcement will speed this process
along, so assume we have little time to provide “demands”.

After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run
the
project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we
need to
accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the
time
we’d like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do
=)).
But let’s try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now. I’ve also
hinted
at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact
me if
you’re interested). Also, feel free to still have the important
conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I
suggesting
people stop talking.

Cory mentioned that my “leadership and vision” was lost. I think you’re
taking my job too seriously =P … but joking aside, I just wanted to
move
back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or
IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants
to
step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and write
code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I’ll
still want to work on IronRuby. =)

This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
everyone’s support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but
directed.
Continue discussing “why IronRuby”. Work in your private fork, take
shots at
fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they’ll eventually
get
integrated back. Continue blogging about how you’re using IronRuby.
Show the
world that regardless of Microsoft’s position, the community is what
makes

At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be commiting
there directly is the automated account. Once we get official word
from MS
on what will happen with everything, Id be happy to discuss the fate
of the

  1. Rails on .NET

I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
scenario, but rails is still literally years ahead of MVC in both
maturity

Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now
that

I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported
tool,
there will be shops that will not be able to use it. On the other
hand,
there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they
understand what they could use it for and how.

To date, the story of what IronRuby is “for” has been rather weak. I
know it’s a language, and so it’s possibilities are just about
endless, but
what are the main areas we think people can derive significant benefit
from
using it?

If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we
need
to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping
people get started with using it for those things. This could help
drive
adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors.

Some examples of things IronRuby may be 'for":

  1. Unit Testing (

)

  1. Embedded Scripting (

http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-rubyconf-2009-part-35.html

)

  1. Silverlight (

http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-through-silverlight-flickr-client.html

)

  1. ?

Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here:

http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part-3-using-dynamic-languages-in.html

Thanks,

Kevin Berridge

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo F. [email protected]
wrote:
Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions
Slavo.

On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just moved to
another
main

person left, and from the emails we’ve received, he’s only working
on
it
part-time. I don’t know the politics of this specific org, but
being
an
ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the politics
that
participants because of the new awareness.

That said, I don’t think that what we should do right now is fork
it,
since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn’t be
controlled.
This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to
ask
ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill:

  1. Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We’ve now
    lost
    that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we will
    need
    an
    external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person will
    have
    to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft
    side.

  2. Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I bet
    there
    are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned
    movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to
    understand what else we’re missing.

  3. IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the
    enterprise adoption side, because if it isn’t supported by
    Microsoft
    PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their
    products.

All three of these are vital points that we need to think about as
a
community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge of
this

and it’s not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas may be willing
to
take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that’s
a
shame.

IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That means
we
need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community and
work
to
understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that
makes
sense. We already know from Jimmy’s tweets that he’s planning an
email
for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim and
Jimmy
have, and support the work Tomas is doing?

Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of
sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we have to
take

I love the new IronRuby project types. It brings me much pleasure to be
able to do File - New Rails 3 Web Application right inside VS2010! I
might
not be booting Ubuntu as much in the days, weeks ahead as I have been.

Congrats to the IronRuby core team! We greatly appreciate your
dedication
to the project.

Also, thanks to Microsoft for not pulling the plug on something so
promising.

Thanks,

Mike Hatfield
Chief Technology Officer
Nicom IT Solutions Inc.

Twitter: @WebCoding4Fun

Best. Fucking. Decision. Ever.

Time for IronRuby to rock and roll. Let’s do this. \m/

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Jimmy S. [email protected]
wrote:

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Will G. [email protected] wrote:

mushy stuff …
Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so
we’d like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do =)).
code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I’ll
~Jimmy

  1. Rails on .NET
    this would help a lot

I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported tool,

(officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in
make some of decisions.

helps us become way more productive in our jobs.

Ok, I like to propose a pause in action.
but
That said, I don’t think that what we should do right now is fork
an
3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the
shame.
Jimmy
success.


http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core


Ironruby-core mailing list
[email protected]
http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core


Michael L.
IronRuby MVP
http://blog.prokrams.com

:slight_smile:

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Michael L. <