# Ruby vs Smalltalk **URL:** \ **Category:** Ruby\ **Created:** [June 8, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ruby-vs-smalltalk/139865 "2008-06-08T12:57:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![quik77](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/q/dec6dc/32.png) [@quik77](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/quik77)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ruby-vs-smalltalk/139865/1 "2008-06-08T12:57:05Z")
Some time ago we have had ruby vs ~ada discussions, or more generally ruby and “large scale applications” - actually, the people that contributed their (impressive) knowledge made this quite interesting. So here I start again - with my lack of knowledge. Ruby vs Smalltalk. I only wrote a tiny bit of smalltalk so far. Some things remind me of ruby like the |block| syntax (but the smalltalk people seem to like to do the |block| in a new line and whenever I saw this in ruby, i was puzzled, because I am used to having the |block| in the same line). Actually come to look at it, I dont so much like the syntax of smalltalk. I think Ruby’s syntax is cleaner than smalltalk’s and I also am not too fond of using := instead of = for assignment. (The Io language uses := too and I’d really have it the other way around, so that = means assignment, rather than “update slot”) Anyway, there is one thing which I believe totally rocks in smalltalk and I still have not understood it completely. It is that image thing. Of course I am interested in this due to the recent exposure of Maglev, additionally some older praises towards smalltalk-squeak, but also about the general VM discussions regarding ruby. And on IRC drbrain mentioned that there are objects which are nearly thirty years old (in some images), which I found astonishing. (Havent even thought that objects “age” too … can I have my immortal objects in the matrix please? ;\> ) My brain also connects this to other discussions I have had (on Gobolinux), where a few talked about a filesystem which uses a database rather than the current FHS approach with flat files being spread everywhere. I think the idea that an image is used for both storing where files are (and then would do away with the problem of requiring _absolute_ paths for anything actually, because i think having the need to store absolute, hardcoded paths is really bad if one needs flexibility), and also the complete OS (in form of objects and their data) is simply … well, “cool”. But it seems as if this whole VM or rather image thing is hardly used outside Smalltalk. Which sounds like a shame, unless I missed something perhaps? Can ruby have such an image based system additionally? ---
**Author:** ![quik77](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/q/dec6dc/32.png) [@quik77](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/quik77)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ruby-vs-smalltalk/139865/2 "2008-06-08T13:35:44Z")
> But it seems as if this whole VM or rather image thing is hardly used > outside Smalltalk. Lisp suffers from this approach too. Anyway, I think you might like to read this for a smalltalk perspective: [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RubyIsSmalltalkMinusMinus](http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RubyIsSmalltalkMinusMinus) It was on reddit recently. > Can ruby have such an image based system additionally? No! ---
**Author:** ![quik77](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/q/dec6dc/32.png) [@quik77](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/quik77)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ruby-vs-smalltalk/139865/3 "2008-06-08T13:48:39Z")
Hello, On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Marc H. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > Actually come to look at it, I dont so much like the syntax of > smalltalk. I think Ruby’s syntax is cleaner than smalltalk’s and I also > am not too fond of using := instead of = for assignment. (The Io > language uses := too and I’d really have it the other way around, so > that = means assignment, rather than “update slot”) Back in the old days, the code for the assignment operator in Smalltalk produced a left arrow. Now that ASCII is generally used, the corresponding code is that of underscore, which does not make clear its intent (assignment). This lead to the introduction of the := syntax for assignment. Squeak S. includes a font that still has the old left arrow. > Anyway, there is one thing which I believe totally rocks in smalltalk > and I still have not understood it completely. > > It is that image thing. Images are good because they come with persistance and session management. On the other hand, they can accumulate a big pile of “dust”. I have found I needed a strict discipline while using images to not loose track of what is inside and what is not. > But it seems as if this whole VM or rather image thing is hardly used > outside Smalltalk. Which sounds like a shame, unless I missed something > perhaps? Can ruby have such an image based system additionally? There are Lisp or ML systems that use images, too. ---
**Author:** ![quik77](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/q/dec6dc/32.png) [@quik77](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/quik77)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ruby-vs-smalltalk/139865/4 "2008-06-08T20:30:12Z")
I’ve written quite a bit on this subject so instead of repeating myself, here are a few links… [http://www.sapphiresteel.com/Ruby-The-Smalltalk-Way](http://www.sapphiresteel.com/Ruby-The-Smalltalk-Way) [http://www.sapphiresteel.com/Ruby-The-Smalltalk-Way-1](http://www.sapphiresteel.com/Ruby-The-Smalltalk-Way-1) [http://www.sapphiresteel.com/Ruby-The-Smalltalk-Way-2-A](http://www.sapphiresteel.com/Ruby-The-Smalltalk-Way-2-A) [http://www.sapphiresteel.com/Ruby-The-Smalltalk-Way-3-The-World](http://www.sapphiresteel.com/Ruby-The-Smalltalk-Way-3-The-World) best wishes Huw C. SapphireSteel Software Ruby and Rails In Visual Studio [http://www.sapphiresteel.com](http://www.sapphiresteel.com) ---
**Author:** ![quik77](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/q/dec6dc/32.png) [@quik77](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/quik77)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ruby-vs-smalltalk/139865/5 "2008-06-08T14:33:26Z")
On 8 Jun 2008, at 12:46, Nicolas Pelletier wrote: > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Marc H. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) > wrote: > > > But it seems as if this whole VM or rather image thing is hardly used > > outside Smalltalk. Which sounds like a shame, unless I missed > > something > > perhaps? Can ruby have such an image based system additionally? > > There are Lisp or ML systems that use images, too. Not to mention MOO (as in LambdaMOO) and Forth. Ellie ## Eleanor McHugh Games With Brains [http://slides.games-with-brains.net](http://slides.games-with-brains.net) raise ArgumentError unless @reality.responds\_to? :reason