On 1/5/07, James B. [email protected] wrote:
What is the purpose of having these at all?
I think the primary purpose is to sell the language to a complete
layman.
See rubyforge.org
True, and I’m sure a number of people have gone that route. But again
we come back to the economics of time. 
option, but I knew that the company was not one of the things I had the
power to change, and life’s too short to sit a cube and be bored.
That’s awesome; I really wish that I had had that option, but other
ties keep me in place.
pursuit, it may be better served by its own site run by people with the
time and motivation to look after it.
Well, I didnt mean to make it sound like people could/should use it to
get work.
My point about the success stories is this: They’re a short, effective
way to curry interest and instill even a little trust in Ruby. That
is the job of the main website I think, and something that can be
easily server by this page. 
–Jeremy
–
My free Ruby e-book:
http://www.humblelittlerubybook.com/book/
My blogs:
[email protected] wrote:
But what we can do is network, and I think we are doing that. And
for what it’s worth, I do think a web page with Ruby success stories
has value, as long as everyone realizes that it is only part of an
overall marketing plan.And that listings of uses of Ruby in commercial projects represents
only part of Ruby’s success.
Yes … commercial projects certainly aren’t the only successes Ruby has
under its belt. But the key word is projects – successful
completion of software that has value to people within some
organization. You can’t take time, people and money out of the equation
for success, even in the context of a government, academic or non-profit
organization.
–
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/
If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
Jeremy McAnally wrote:
because they thought I knew what was better. Regardless of their
breadth of knowledge, they were willing to pay for what they knew, not
what I thought was best.
That’s a pretty narrow view of how managers and employees (or customers
and contractors) relate as people within an organization. There’s an
awful lot of literature about this, some good and some bad, and one can
choose to take a cynical view or one can choose to learn the better
ways. My point is that you choose your attitude – it is not defined
for you by anyone else.
this for something meaningful"?
Meaningful to whom? I learned Laplace transforms in graduate school
because they were interesting and because they might or might not be
useful to me some day. I learned sales and marketing for the same
reason. And I’m learning Ruby for the same reason. I’m not going to
demand that anyone pay me to program in Ruby, but it gives me another
option. There are starting to be opportunities for Ruby programmers,
especially Rails developers. So go ahead and learn Ruby and Rails, but
also learn networking skills and sales skills too, because ultimately
that’s how you will make your learnings meaningful.
Mostly because people interested in the craft need to pay bills. I’m
interested in the craft of software development, but I’m also
interested in being able to eat. I would rather spend my time
learning a langauge that is possibly useful to me in a work
environment AND enriching…they are not mututally exclusive concepts.
Yes, but Ruby’s popularity isn’t necessarily the key to being able to
pay the bills programming in Ruby. The key to being able to pay the
bills programming in Ruby is to get good at programming in Ruby and to
get good at selling yourself, not the language. The Ruby community
can’t do these for you.
But what we can do is network, and I think we are doing that. And
for what it’s worth, I do think a web page with Ruby success stories has
value, as long as everyone realizes that it is only part of an overall
marketing plan.
metaprogramming and increases productivity; they want to know if
someone has been able to increase productivity first).
Yes … some people respond to success stories and some people don’t.
One of the things you’ll discover if you pursue sales training is
something you already know – people vary in what they respond to, how
they make business decisions, and whether they are more motivated by
moving towards something they perceive as positive or moving away from
something they perceive as negative.
And what’s more, in general, people don’t optimize, they satisfice. That
is, because it’s so difficult to come up with something that’s perfect
for all time, they do something that’s good enough for now. An awful lot
of “good enough for now” has been done in C, C++, Java, Perl, PHP and
Python, and if you are willing to ditch portability, Delphi and Visual
Basic. That’s one of the reasons I recommend Sharon Drew Morgen’s
works so highly – hers seems to have been the first sales system to
realize that businesses in general don’t buy anything until what they
are currently doing and the way they are currently doing it is no longer
good enough.
It’s a sad environment to work in, I know, but it’s not totally
uncommon for those of us who are not lucky enough to work in good jobs
or have the proper education to garner said occupation.
Well … I encourage you to pursue Ruby even if it currently isn’t
paying the bills. And go find situations where what they are doing isn’t
good enough.
–
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/
If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
On 1/7/07, Mushfeq K. [email protected] wrote:
In that case, could the page be renamed to ‘Who uses Ruby?’. The Python
success stories page is basically that - a huge list of all the various
applications that have been found for Python.‘Success stories’ just sounds so… startup-ish.
Hmm… “Who uses Ruby?” or “Real World Ruby”, or something like that
might be better indeed since ‘success’ is such a relative term.
There was one case I remember where a Success Stories page really got
me interested in something:
The Franz Lisp success stories, including the Crash Bandicoot series
of games (and the Jak & Daxter series, but I’ve never played those, so
it struck me less), modified immediately my view of Lisp from ‘a
language only applicable for data structure crunching’ (i.e. almost no
communication with the “outside world” of other software on the
computer/net) to ‘a dynamic language on par with C in performance with
much higher abstraction that can be used for graphical things, even 3d
computer games’.
So yes, Success Stories pages do have use.
But I don’t think the correct attitude of such a page is to show that
“here, this was used where money was involved, so don’t be afraid to
put yours behind it”. but to show scales and domains of projects that
the language was a factor in making possible that the average reader
possibly thought are impossible with it.
Show a huge project, a fast project (with C in the right places, of
course). a complicated algorithmic project, a beautiful graphic
application, projects that really USE ruby tlike Rails, show camping.
I think camping deserves a special place in such a page because it is
very RUBY, wouldn’t possibly be able to achieve in the same way with
another language, and is so damn ELEGANT. Also, code USING camping is
so elegant for having a whole website written in 100% ruby deployable
as a single .rb file.
People interested in the craft of software development will learn
languages for the sake of learning new concepts. I’d much rather see a
slower growth of the Ruby community than try to draw people in who will
only pursue Ruby if they think it offers gainful employment or some
“non-hobby” use.
+1
At Mercer, we’re using Ruby in an in-house financial application plowing
through about 15 USD millions a year. We are much more concerned with
the
long-term stability than the short term growth of Ruby. Not saying that
they always contradict each other, just that the long term is more
important.
JE
And that listings of uses of Ruby in commercial projects represents
only part of Ruby’s success.
If you can convince a manager who doesn’t know programming but likes
to think he does that something without commercial cred is better than
something PHP or Java (i.e., one of my former managers), then I will
give you a sack of money.
Or a hug. Whichever is cheaper.
It’s sad that was what decisions came down to for him (and one other
persoon Ive worked with), but it’s a reality. And something that can
be easily addressed by (a slightly better version of) this little
list.
–
My free Ruby e-book:
http://www.humblelittlerubybook.com/book/
My blogs:
On Jan 5, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Jeremy McAnally wrote:
Notable stories that should be added that I’m aware of:
- Amazon’s UnSpun
- Ara Howard at the NOAA uses Ruby a lot
Interview those people, write up little blurbs for them, and I will
add them.
James Edward G. II
On Jan 5, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Jeremy McAnally wrote:
Notable stories that should be added that I’m aware of:
- Amazon’s UnSpun
- Ara Howard at the NOAA uses Ruby a lot
Google Sketchup is scriptable via Ruby, though I don’t know if it’s a
Ruby app per se. It’s certainly the highest-profile app based on
Ruby that I’ve encountered.
Tom
On 1/7/07, SonOfLilit [email protected] wrote:
much higher abstraction that can be used for graphical things, even 3d
computer games’.So yes, Success Stories pages do have use.
But I don’t think the correct attitude of such a page is to show that
“here, this was used where money was involved, so don’t be afraid to
put yours behind it”. but to show scales and domains of projects that
the language was a factor in making possible that the average reader
possibly thought are impossible with it.
In that case, could the page be renamed to ‘Who uses Ruby?’. The Python
success stories page is basically that - a huge list of all the various
applications that have been found for Python.
‘Success stories’ just sounds so… startup-ish.
Mushfeq.
Jeremy McAnally wrote:
…
I think the page we have now is significant, but maybe needs to look
less like a list and more like a narrative outlining some of the
success stories. When I pop open both the Python and Ruby success
stories pages, all I see are links. I’ve looked at the Ruby one
before, but glossed over it because there was nothing compelling about
it. Maybe the content should stay but be presented in a more
interesting way?
What is the purpose of having these at all?
–
James B.
“Judge a man by his questions, rather than his answers.”
- Voltaire
+1 for “Who uses Ruby?” or “Who’s using Ruby?” or any variant thereof.
Makes more sense to me.
–Jeremy
On 1/7/07, [email protected] [email protected] wrote:
‘Success stories’ just sounds so… startup-ish.
–
Q. What is THE Ruby book for Rails developers?
A. RUBY FOR RAILS by David A. Black (Ruby for Rails)
(See what readers are saying! http://www.rubypal.com/r4rrevs.pdf)
Q. Where can I get Ruby/Rails on-site training, consulting, coaching?
A. Ruby Power and Light, LLC (http://www.rubypal.com)
–
My free Ruby e-book:
http://www.humblelittlerubybook.com/book/
My blogs:
Hi –
On Sun, 7 Jan 2007, Jeremy McAnally wrote:
It’s sad that was what decisions came down to for him (and one other
persoon Ive worked with), but it’s a reality. And something that can
be easily addressed by (a slightly better version of) this little
list.
What I’m saying is that I don’t consider the word “success” to be
synonymous with “commercial deployment”.
David
On 1/6/07, James B. [email protected] wrote:
They don’t trust their technical people to make assessments of
development tools? PHP + security concerns = severe cognitive dissonance.
You’ve obviously never worked in some of the places I’ve had to… =/
I don’t think I’ve ever been in a place where management left me be
because they thought I knew what was better. Regardless of their
breadth of knowledge, they were willing to pay for what they knew, not
what I thought was best.
But in such a case you probably shouldn’t using Ruby for production
development.
Then how do we get better? How do we gain applicable, real-world
programming skills if we never step out and say, “I’m going to use
this for something meaningful”?
[snipped a lot of good stuff]
Why be concerned over Ruby’s popularity? Or, at least, why be concerned
with making Ruby popular among people who don’t have the wherewithal or
motivation to properly assess it? Will it cultivate a strong, lasting
Ruby community?
Mostly because people interested in the craft need to pay bills. I’m
interested in the craft of software development, but I’m also
interested in being able to eat. I would rather spend my time
learning a langauge that is possibly useful to me in a work
environment AND enriching…they are not mututally exclusive concepts.
Someone choosing Ruby for production development had better be sure of
the value and risks, which are not apparent from one-page success
stories. I’d prefer someone not use Ruby at all rather than use Ruby
with mistaken expectations, fail, then blame the language.
Of course, but they need to know of the benefits. Some people simply
respond better to a narrative of someone else’s success rather than
dry technical explanations (ie., my boss’s couldnt care if Ruby has
metaprogramming and increases productivity; they want to know if
someone has been able to increase productivity first).
It’s a sad environment to work in, I know, but it’s not totally
uncommon for those of us who are not lucky enough to work in good jobs
or have the proper education to garner said occupation.
–Jeremy
–
My free Ruby e-book:
http://www.humblelittlerubybook.com/book/
My blogs:
Hi –
On Sun, 7 Jan 2007, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
Yes, but Ruby’s popularity isn’t necessarily the key to being able to pay the
bills programming in Ruby. The key to being able to pay the bills programming
in Ruby is to get good at programming in Ruby and to get good at selling
yourself, not the language. The Ruby community can’t do these for you.But what we can do is network, and I think we are doing that. And for
what it’s worth, I do think a web page with Ruby success stories has value,
as long as everyone realizes that it is only part of an overall marketing
plan.
And that listings of uses of Ruby in commercial projects represents
only part of Ruby’s success.
David
What I’m saying is that I don’t consider the word “success” to be
synonymous with “commercial deployment”.
Ah, and I agree. Your previous post actually got me thinking about
how Rails and a number of other pieces of the Ruby community are
successes. Interesting thought, really, but I don’t know if that’s
what people look for in a “success stories” list…at least thats not
what I think about.
I didn’t mean to make it seem as if I thought commercial involvement
was the only form of success, but in the context of the page’s content
I believe that was the definition of success we were going
for…unless they want to re-scope/rename the page…
–Jeremy
–
My free Ruby e-book:
http://www.humblelittlerubybook.com/book/
My blogs:
Hi –
On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Gregory B. wrote:
On 1/7/07, Mushfeq K. [email protected] wrote:
In that case, could the page be renamed to ‘Who uses Ruby?’. The Python
success stories page is basically that - a huge list of all the various
applications that have been found for Python.‘Success stories’ just sounds so… startup-ish.
Hmm… “Who uses Ruby?” or “Real World Ruby”, or something like that
might be better indeed since ‘success’ is such a relative term.
“Real world” is a very relative term I like “Who uses Ruby?”
because it’s the only one that isn’t an established euphemism for
commercial use.
David
I’d suggest a “Frameworks” category for that list. (And plus one on
adding Amazon, btw.)
I’ll see if Ara and his friend are interested in an interview, but I
don’t know anyone on the UnSpun team. I would be interested in
interviewing them if I can get some contact information. I’ll also
contact the team from Steve Case’s startup…
I think these sorts of things are what sell to people in management
honestly. For example, I’ve been working on selling Ruby/Rails to my
superiors here on campus. They’re very security and stability
conscience, so mentioning anything other than PHP for the website and
Java for application software is pretty much out of the question. The
first question out of their mouth was “Who else is using it? We’re
not going to use it unless it’s been proven.” Point blank.
Now, if I were a ruby newbie who just learned the language and wanted
to use it, then I would’ve been stuck. Fortunately, I’m fairly in
touch with where Ruby is being used and could provide some example
that yes, real people use Ruby. It’s not just a Japanese guy and a
few startups that dont’ have a real product. Ruby has proven/is
proving itself in a lot of places. Having this page gives people who
aren’t that plugged into what’s going on that same sort of
information. I think it’s pretty important; I’m just not sure that a
fat list of links is the best way to present it.
Even further, some developers might be curious about Ruby, but be
discouraged if theres no evidence of it actually being used. I hear
this a lot from people who are interested in learning laguages like
Haskell, but don’t see any practical value in it since they’re not
going to use it outside of a hobby.
–Jeremy
P.S. - My superiors bought it and Ruby powers a lot of things around
here. Now…I just need to get hold of the website…
On 1/5/07, James B. [email protected] wrote:
What is the purpose of having these at all?
–
James B.“Judge a man by his questions, rather than his answers.”
- Voltaire
–
My free Ruby e-book:
http://www.humblelittlerubybook.com/book/
My blogs: