# Rails core going multiligual...ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Rails\ **Created:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213 "2005-11-12T12:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/1 "2005-11-12T12:49:44Z")
Hi, I have seen a lot of threads over the last couple weeks about using rails for multilingual sites. What is the plan for the rails core with respect to going multilingual. Is it in the future plans? It seems like a lot of people want this which I think makes it a framework issue. After all, translation isn’t specific to a particular application. There are many sources of text that is displayed on a web page. I can at least think of four sources - dynamic from the database - static in the template files - generated by a flash - generated by validation (the header and the list of errors) - more? It would be nice if there was a unified approach to having all of these translated the same way and in a slick manner the way Rails does so many things. I suppose the first thing would be defining a standard way to handle the session variable holding the current language. Any thoughts about the future of multilingualism and Rails? Thanks, Peter ---
**Author:** ![jmharvey.9956003](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jmharvey.9956003](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/jmharvey.9956003)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/2 "2005-11-12T12:49:51Z")
As I mentioned on the rails-core list, Josh Sierles and I are going to release an i18n plugin based on Muiltilingual Rails. It also supports translating db content via a class method, e.g.: class Product \< ActiveRecord::Base translates :name, :description end Locale.set(“es\_ES”) product = Product.find 1 product.name -\> “Albondigas” Locale.set(“en\_US”) product = Product.find 1 product.name -\> “Meatballs” It also comes with a fairly complete table of languages. My hope is that once it becomes well established as a plugin, it will eventually be integrated into rails core. If anybody want to check out the beta code, send me an email at removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid and I’ll send you the subversion url. We need help with testing and docs. Josh Harvey Julian ‘Julik’ Tarkhanov wrote: They don’t care. None of the core users of Rails need this functionality as I know. The answer will be “make a plugin”. Muiltilingual Rails project was promising, I think it could have given Rails a good foundation - but will parties involved agree to the ways it has to do stuff? ---
**Author:** ![jmharvey.9956003](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jmharvey.9956003](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/jmharvey.9956003)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/3 "2005-11-12T12:50:08Z")
Good point, Sascha – our library is indeed LGPL. My take is I’ll make my code any license that will get it into rails. The problem is we’re using code from another author (Per Wigren), and we’ll need permission from him, too. We’ve just managed to make brief contact with him, so I’ll keep you posted. Josh Harvey ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/4 "2005-11-12T12:49:50Z")
On 10-nov-2005, at 6:52, Peter M. wrote: > Hi, > > I have seen a lot of threads over the last couple weeks about using > rails for multilingual sites. What is the plan for the rails core > with respect to going multilingual. Is it in the future plans? It > seems like a lot of people want this which I think makes it a > framework issue. After all, translation isn’t specific to a > particular application. > > Any thoughts about the future of multilingualism and Rails? They don’t care. None of the core users of Rails need this functionality as I know. The answer will be “make a plugin”. Muiltilingual Rails project was promising, I think it could have given Rails a good foundation - but will parties involved agree to the ways it has to do stuff? I mean - can imagine the protetst when we try to put an implementation of Locale and a proper full ISO contry list in there… ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/5 "2005-11-12T12:49:51Z")
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Nov 10, 2005, at 1:16 PM, Julian ‘Julik’ Tarkhanov wrote: > They don’t care. None of the core users of Rails need this > functionality as I know. The answer will be “make a plugin”. I am using Rails for a large internationalized webapp. Localization is a hard problem whose solution varies from simple yaml files to large, heavyweight frameworks like ICU. “They don’t care” inaccurately portrays the problem that localization poses. This answer _is_ to make a plugin. Let’s throw some solutions on the wall and see what sticks and for whom. > Muiltilingual Rails project was promising, I think it could have > given Rails a good foundation - but will parties involved > agree to the ways it has to do stuff? The project has been picked up by new developers and is progressing nicely. Unfortunately, it is GPL and therefore incompatible with Rails’ MIT license. > I mean - can imagine the protetst when we try to put an > implementation of Locale and a proper full ISO contry list in there… I wish this was included in Ruby proper, rather than having to solve the problem in Rails. Likewise with character encoding issues. Best, jeremy -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDc7zOAQHALep9HFYRAk6ZAJ0fxHbcN2Q+42O6wF/MJo7hTHTziwCgnA9D ceEOccEKyston+vH3ad/Ll0= =SX2a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/6 "2005-11-12T12:49:52Z")
Jeremy \> This answer _is_ to make a plugin. Core core or core plugin, it doesn’t matter, but it really needs to be part of the - 1.0 - standard distribution. Another obvious candidate is authentication: half a dozen solutions, and growing, just to add a “login” to your app!? It’s messy. There should be one - plugin - in the core. AJAX is neat, but authentication and i18n are vital. Alain R. ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/7 "2005-11-12T12:49:53Z")
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Nov 10, 2005, at 2:06 PM, Alain R. wrote: > Jeremy > > > This answer _is_ to make a plugin. > > Core core or core plugin, it doesn’t matter, but it really needs > to be part of the - 1.0 - standard distribution. > Another obvious candidate is authentication: half a dozen > solutions, and growing, just to add a “login” to your app!? It’s > messy. There should be one - plugin - in the core. > > AJAX is neat, but authentication and i18n are vital. Thank you for the reemphasis. Note that I do not disagree. jeremy -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDc87YAQHALep9HFYRAhjgAKDeRxvRA2EnLxKiJ/T9CLaWINta9gCeJ9bN 6BJuLMSTajBhApYbbgPNyp8= =rUVV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/8 "2005-11-12T12:49:55Z")
On 11/10/05, Jeremy K. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > I am using Rails for a large internationalized webapp. Localization > is a hard problem whose solution varies from simple yaml files to > large, heavyweight frameworks like ICU. This implies that one solution doesn’t fit all problems which is always true. But this thinking would apply to web frameworks as well. I’m chosing to use Rails because eventhough Rails may makes certain tasks more difficult, in general Rails makes things easier. Can’t we take a similarly opinionated software approach with internationalization as Rails has with web frameworks? This answer _is_ to make a plugin. Let’s throw some solutions on the wall > and see what sticks and for whom. Is this effort organized or just a bunch people re-inventing the wheel? (The reason I ran from PHP and all it’s fragmented frameworks.) If the solution is inside or outside of core Rails cannot break when someone using i18n wants to upgrade Rails. I heard that was a problem with the multilingual rails project. Maybe not true though. But enough talk, I’d like to get involved. I’d really like to see a (complete?) list of the i18n problems that need to be addressed. Thanks, Peter ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/9 "2005-11-12T12:49:55Z")
On 11/10/05, Jeremy K. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: I wish this was included in Ruby proper, rather than having to solve > the problem in Rails. Likewise with character encoding issues. Could this be written for Ruby? Ruby is extensible with C code, yes? ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/10 "2005-11-12T12:49:55Z")
On 11/10/05, Alain R. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > AJAX is neat, but authentication and i18n are vital. Well said! AJAX optimizes the user experience. A lot of people need authentication and i18n and I still think they are framework issues. ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/11 "2005-11-12T12:49:55Z")
I just wanted to chip in that I’ve been using Joshua’s Multilingual Rails Plugin for the last day or two. It’s been great, other than a few small bugs. Thanks for the good work! ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/12 "2005-11-12T12:50:00Z")
Jeremy K. wrote: > > Muiltilingual Rails project was promising, I think it could have given > > Rails a good foundation - but will parties involved > > agree to the ways it has to do stuff? > > The project has been picked up by new developers and is progressing nicely. > > Unfortunately, it is GPL and therefore incompatible with Rails’ MIT > license. Hi Jeremy, that is not true. Ri18n is GPL, which really is bad (for me) since I have invested so much time in it and it seems dead. I can’t reach the main author and development is halted for over six months. Multilingual Rails on the other hand is LGPL which would allow to include it into Rails. I am sure that the original authors would change licences if asked. Any author would like to see his/her lib make it into the Rails core because that means indefinite stardom 😉 SO, Joshua Harvey, what is your take on that? Sascha Ebacdh ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/13 "2005-11-12T12:50:00Z")
David Heinemeier H. wrote: > > > AJAX is neat, but authentication and i18n are vital. > > > Well said! AJAX optimizes the user experience. A lot of people need > > > authentication and i18n and I still think they are framework issues. > > Let’s not mix these together. I agree that a i18n definitely stands a > shot at making it into the Rails core, … Ooh, that gives me hope. I will print this and hang it on the wall 😉 Good support for i18n before 2.0 would be just great. Sascha E. ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/14 "2005-11-12T12:50:00Z")
> > AJAX is neat, but authentication and i18n are vital. > > Well said! AJAX optimizes the user experience. A lot of people need > authentication and i18n and I still think they are framework issues. ## Let’s not mix these together. I agree that a i18n definitely stands a shot at making it into the Rails core, but authentication absolutely does not. There’s a fine line between infrastructure and business logic. i18n sits on the infrastructure side, authentication on the business logic side. David Heinemeier H. [http://www.loudthinking.com](http://www.loudthinking.com) – Broadcasting Brain [http://www.basecamphq.com](http://www.basecamphq.com) – Online project management [http://www.backpackit.com](http://www.backpackit.com) – Personal information manager [http://www.rubyonrails.com](http://www.rubyonrails.com) – Web-application framework ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/15 "2005-11-12T12:50:01Z")
> [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > > > I agree that a i18n definitely stands a > > shot at making it into the Rails core, > > Is there already an organized effort to make this happen? ## The organized effort is for a Best of Breed™ plugin to emerge and win the hearts of many. There’s quite a few contenders out there. Even one in the Rails svn under plugins/localization. David Heinemeier H. [http://www.loudthinking.com](http://www.loudthinking.com) – Broadcasting Brain [http://www.basecamphq.com](http://www.basecamphq.com) – Online project management [http://www.backpackit.com](http://www.backpackit.com) – Personal information manager [http://www.rubyonrails.com](http://www.rubyonrails.com) – Web-application framework ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/16 "2005-11-12T12:50:01Z")
On 11/11/05, David Heinemeier H. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > I agree that a i18n definitely stands a > shot at making it into the Rails core, Is there already an organized effort to make this happen? ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/17 "2005-11-12T12:50:09Z")
> Let’s not mix these together. I agree that a i18n definitely stands a > shot at making it into the Rails core, but authentication absolutely > does not. There’s a fine line between infrastructure and business > logic. i18n sits on the infrastructure side, authentication on the > business logic side. Some built-in authentication as part of the infrastructure itself would be valuable maybe. Something such as providing a structure or mechanism where people or the core team could plug authentication providers (along with maybe the most common authentication providers such as say LDAP). Could be something quite similar to the authentication providers in [ASP.Net](http://ASP.Net) 2 (see [1]) ? About i18n the need is obviously there, but I’m wondering if the answer will only address translation of text messages, or also things such as : - date formats - currency formats - number separators - … (in both object to display conversion and input to object conversion ?) Lack of strong i18n support is pretty much a blocker to me so far… I really hope it will be addressed. [1] [Microsoft Learn: Build skills that open doors in your career](http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/05/11/Membership/default.aspx) Thibaut – [blog] [http://www.dotnetguru2.org/tbarrere](http://www.dotnetguru2.org/tbarrere) ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/18 "2005-11-12T12:50:10Z")
On 11-nov-2005, at 17:35, David Heinemeier H. wrote: > > [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > > > > > I agree that a i18n definitely stands a > > > shot at making it into the Rails core, > > > > Is there already an organized effort to make this happen? > > The organized effort is for a Best of Breed™ plugin to emerge and > win the hearts of many. There’s quite a few contenders out there. Even > one in the Rails svn under plugins/localization. I’m very sorry to interrupt this debate, but is it sane to engage in a plugin which will have to override like a good 2/5ths of ActionPack and quite some AR ounyl to find out it broke with the next 0.0.01 update? The one under plugins/localization is nice, but it translates _strings_. Rails, should I remind you, must have error messages, helpers, date and coutnry selects (which don’t even use ISO code now) not minding model field translations etc. Most of this functionality can’t be bolted on as a plugin because it needs very heavy overriding of the Rails internals. ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/19 "2005-11-12T17:40:11Z")
On 11 Nov 2005, at 13:11, David Heinemeier H. wrote: > Let’s not mix these together. I agree that a i18n definitely stands a > shot at making it into the Rails core, but authentication absolutely > does not. There’s a fine line between infrastructure and business > logic. i18n sits on the infrastructure side, authentication on the > business logic side. I won’t disagree with that sentiment around authentication (actually, because I’m an IETF-head, let’s call that AAA), but just realise that without i18n Rails is for many of us, in essence, just a toy framework - there is no way on Earth I can take this into work projects I’m hoping to deploy across the whole of the EU if it won’t do i18n. It’s core, and for me it’s a show-stopper if it’s not there in 1.0. I’d love to switch all development effort to Rails, but without i18n, there’s no hope. I appreciate I’m in a minority on this list, but I can assure you that I’m in the majority when it comes to the rest of humanity. 🙂 I’ll go through what is out there and see if there is enough there to chew off what I need (including Josh’s plugin) but I would suggest that this is addressed in some reasonable way before 1.0… I haven’t actually looked at it for work projects in a couple of months because of this, but it looks like things have moved on a little. Let’s see if it’s enough… – Paul R. - [http://iconoplex.com](http://iconoplex.com) “Cogito, ergo sum.” – Descartes ---
**Author:** ![petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/46a35a/32.png) [@petermichaux](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/petermichaux)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213/20 "2005-11-12T18:10:20Z")
On Nov 12, 2005, at 9:39 AM, Paul R. wrote: > realise that without i18n Rails is for many of us, in essence, just > to chew off what I need (including Josh’s plugin) but I would > suggest that this is addressed in some reasonable way before 1.0… > I haven’t actually looked at it for work projects in a couple of > months because of this, but it looks like things have moved on a > little. Let’s see if it’s enough… This really fascinates me. I can completely understand that you may need i18n for your apps, and without i18n support, you can’t get your work done. But why does i18n need to be in the core? (I’m not saying it shouldn’t be, just wondering why it _must_ be.) The assumption, it seems, is that if something is in the core, it will be just what you need. This is definitely not going to be the case for everyone–as has been pointed out repeatedly, i18n has many application-specific needs, and just because there may someday be _an_ implementation of i18n in core, that does not imply that it may be the implementation _you_ need. I see the proliferation of 3rd party i18n efforts as a good thing, in many ways. May I politely suggest that people stop complaining about the _lack_ of i18n in Rails, and please _do something about it_. Use an existing solution. Join an existing effort to build something else. Or even build something else yourself. Some members of the core team have put forward i18n solutions that work for them. Other rails users have proposed several other solutions, either complete or in-progress. If they don’t work for you, put together something that does. Once we have a few really good solutions that have been tested in the field, we can start to decide what kind of solution ought to reside in core, if any. (The key here is “tested in the field.”) And before anyone points the finger at the core team and declares that it is our responsibility to solve your problems, please understand that the core team believes firmly in the opinionated and pragmatic stance of “don’t write it if you don’t need it.” Virtually all of Rails has been developed along these lines. I have never needed to write an i18n application, so I am unsuited for putting together anything along those lines. Jeremy and Thomas have both needed (and written) such solutions, but they don’t please everyone. We (the core team) have done as much as we’re going to at this point, I think. The ball is in your court now (where “you” refers to “anyone needing an i18n solution”.) Yah, it’s an awkward time to be exploring rails if you need an i18n solution RIGHT NOW. If you’re in that boat and you absolutely cannot live with Thomas’ minimal solution, or with any of the other solutions that are out there, and you simply cannot take the time to build your own, then you probably ought to look into another framework for now. But please know that there are many bright people working on this problem, even if the core team itself isn’t dedicating their R&D efforts to it. Anyway, I’m done rambling. - Jamis [Next page](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/rails-core-going-multiligual-ever/50213.md?page=2)