# Potential enterprise rails project

**URL:** <https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542>\
**Category:** Rails\
**Created:** [August 19, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542 "2006-08-19T01:15:18Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 9\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/magpie)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542/1 "2006-08-19T01:15:18Z")

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Hello Rubyists,

I’m in the position of being given the job to design and build a  
mission-critical web facing application for a small but growing  
enterprise. It is to be used by customers as needed, numbering in  
the tens up to the hundreds. It will collect operational data,  
particularly in a table around 50 columns wide, and potentially  
millions of rows deep, most fields being numerical.  
The customers will be reporting on this, and the system will be  
looking for exceptional values.

I am a reasonably experienced developer with over 10 years  
experience, including C, C# and Access. The Access project was  
really too big for Access, and included lots of VBA. I know HTML  
and XML, though not much of other web technologies.  
So technically, I’m reasonably competent, though not so much in  
web sites or multi-tier databases. For the foreseeable future,  
I am the sole developer on this project.

I’ve been following Ruby and Rails for 6 months or so, and excited  
that I (almost) have the opportunity to work with it. My boss at  
first approved that I do it in Rails, and also that I use Adobe  
Flash/Flex for the front end. Now he is uncertain with typical  
concerns regarding enterprise-level use of and commitment to an  
unknown platform. He is a competent developer, though now mostly  
concerned with the business.

So, I have some questions :

1. Rails it seems intentionally ignores database optimisation  
techniques, such as indexes, stored procedures etc. Beyond the  
average web app, and below big enterprise apps, are these things  
necessary, or would rails do the job, just perhaps with double the  
hardware ?

2. We are currently a Windows shop. Is it foolish to run a high-level  
Rails app on Windows servers today ? We have agreed to use SQL Server -  
just to ease the discomfort of going non-MS in other areas, no  
technical reason.

3. If we begin with Rails, does it require anything that would limit  
the design for future migration to [ASP.NET](http://ASP.NET) at a later stage ?

4. For a compromise solution is it possible/sensible to run C#/ADO.NET  
for the core business logic, and Rails for the basic data entry  
interfaces  
and reporting _simultaneously_ on the same database. This would placate  
some of the concerns re enterprise readiness.

Thanks for listening, and many thanks for any responses.

Regards

magpie

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/magpie)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542/2 "2006-08-19T01:42:40Z")

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On 8/18/06, www-data [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

> looking for exceptional values.  
> that I (almost) have the opportunity to work with it. My boss at  
> average web app, and below big enterprise apps, are these things  
> necessary, or would rails do the job, just perhaps with double the  
> hardware ?

> Rails it seems intentionally ignores database optimisation  
> Thats true for any wrapper be it ActiveRecord or Hibernate (ORM), both  
> in  
> Hibernate and ActiveRecord you have the option to use find\_by\_sql in  
> which  
> you can execute whatever database specific SQL you want. So in short  
> Rails  
> doesn’t use indexing automagically. You can even override the  
> ActiveRecord  
> finders to use indexes or stored procedure (though I haven’t used SP in  
> AR  
> finders)

1. We are currently a Windows shop. Is it foolish to run a high-level

> Rails app on Windows servers today ? We have agreed to use SQL Server -  
> just to ease the discomfort of going non-MS in other areas, no  
> technical reason.

I don’t think its foolish run Rails app on windows until and unless you  
come  
across some non-portable or bad performing mongrel/lighty library only  
for  
Windows.

1. If we begin with Rails, does it require anything that would limit

> the design for future migration to [ASP.NET](http://ASP.NET) at a later stage ?

You have RubyCLR [http://rubyforge.org/projects/rubyclr/](http://rubyforge.org/projects/rubyclr/) (latet release  
is  
very high performance) so you won’t have to worry about [ASP.NET](http://ASP.NET) until  
and  
unless you are stuck onto [ASP.NET](http://ASP.NET).

1. For a compromise solution is it possible/sensible to run C#/ADO.NET

> for the core business logic, and Rails for the basic data entry  
> interfaces  
> and reporting _simultaneously_ on the same database. This would placate  
> some of the concerns re enterprise readiness.

You can reference .NET assemblies by assembly name or by filename if you  
use  
RubyCLR. But I would recommend trying ActiveRecord before jumping onto  
[ADO.NET](http://ADO.NET) Ruby combo

Thanks for listening, and many thanks for any responses.

> Regards
> 
> magpie

Hope this helps

-daya

–

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/magpie)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542/3 "2006-08-19T02:36:10Z")

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Daya S. wrote:

> On 8/18/06, www-data [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote:

Thanks for responding Daya.

> You can even override the  
> ActiveRecord finders to use indexes or stored procedure (though I haven’t  
> used SP in AR finders)

Thats encouraging.

> 1. We are currently a Windows shop. Is it foolish to run a high-level
> 
> > Rails app on Windows servers today ? We have agreed to use SQL Server -  
> > just to ease the discomfort of going non-MS in other areas, no  
> > technical reason.
> 
> I don’t think its foolish run Rails app on windows until and unless you  
> come across some non-portable or bad performing mongrel/lighty library only  
> for Windows.

yes, thats my concern. It seems IIS is hardly used with Rails, at least  
without customisation that I don’t want to get involved with. The web  
servers mentioned are primarily used on Linux, and aren’t necessarily as  
solid on Windows. (not speaking from actual knowledge here - please  
correct me if I’m wrong)

> 1. If we begin with Rails, does it require anything that would limit
> 
> > the design for future migration to [ASP.NET](http://ASP.NET) at a later stage ?
> 
> You have RubyCLR [http://rubyforge.org/projects/rubyclr/](http://rubyforge.org/projects/rubyclr/) (latet release  
> is  
> very high performance) so you won’t have to worry about [ASP.NET](http://ASP.NET) until  
> and  
> unless you are stuck onto [ASP.NET](http://ASP.NET).

I’m not sure what you are saying here. My Q was relating to the database  
design. If designed for rails, would the database be sub-optimal to use  
with [ASP.NET | Open-source web framework for .NET](http://ASP.NET/ADO.NET) ?

> 1. For a compromise solution is it possible/sensible to run C#/ADO.NET
> 
> > for the core business logic, and Rails for the basic data entry  
> > interfaces  
> > and reporting _simultaneously_ on the same database. This would placate  
> > some of the concerns re enterprise readiness.
> 
> You can reference .NET assemblies by assembly name or by filename if you  
> use RubyCLR. But I would recommend trying ActiveRecord before jumping onto  
> [ADO.NET](http://ADO.NET) Ruby combo.

I understand I could access business logic in .Net from Ruby, but could  
I have the following ?

[ASP.NET](http://ASP.NET) Rails  
| |  
| |  
[ADO.NET](http://ADO.NET) ActiveRecord

| |
| --- |

```
     |
     |
  SQL Server

```

The Rails side would provide simple data entry and reporting and get us  
going now. The .Net side would contain the more complex rules and  
processing. The hope is to make the simple things simple on the Ruby  
side, and the difficult things possible on the .Net side. Perhaps this  
is crazy, would breed duplication of logic, leading to inconsistencies  
and bugs. Any thoughts or other scenarios ?

Thanks

magpie

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/magpie)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542/4 "2006-08-19T02:57:16Z")

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magpie-

You could do a setup with .Net and Rails. However, I just don’t see  
the advantage. I think you would be building a headache.

At our consulting business, we do sometimes do (Access -\> Mysql \<-  
Rails) to allow for client-driven reporting and etc. That makes sense  
for easy reporting with low development costs, but doing parts in .Net  
specifically for “logic” would be a nightmare.

Do it all in one or in the other. Tell him you can do it in .Net, but  
it will take twice as long. Business people just care about the cost  
of something. And, rightly so. If I wasn’t confident of that fact it  
would be hard to bet our reputation and tell our clients that we can  
do it faster and cheaper, then I have no right calling myself a good  
consultant. And the fact is, that you can deliver even on your first  
application.

We have been directly involved in business migrating for MS products  
to _cheaper_ and more efficient open source solutions and they cut  
their costs dramatically.

To answer one of your first questions, yes Rails can handle fairly  
intense business logic without much sweat. I create “enterprise”  
applications in rails on a daily basis and they can easily handle it.  
I’d ballpark that one windows server of decent spec with the db and  
the app with pretty intense business-logic might be able to handle up  
to 80 simultanious users. That’s _simultanious_ which is far different  
than total customer usage.

The fact is in these situations that Rails just makes good business  
sense. Not only will your developers be more productive and more  
happy, but they will be faster and cheaper.

I’ve yet to see conversions _not_ save money. Not once yet.

Goodluck! Fight the good fight for efficieny!

============

hampton catlin.  
unspace interactive.  
rails consultant.

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**Author:** ![magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/magpie)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 6:56am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542/5 "2006-08-19T06:56:17Z")

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@magpie

Deployment on Windows is pretty simple, just not as performant as other  
platforms. I’ve posted on this before. There is a deployment book coming  
up  
that will contain a chapter that I wrote which covers this issue in  
great  
detail. If you need to talk about this, just drop me a line.

Of course, that goes for anyone else too.

---

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**Author:** ![magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/magpie)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542/6 "2006-08-19T07:28:18Z")

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> 1. If we begin with Rails, does it require anything that would limit  
> the design for future migration to [ASP.NET](http://ASP.NET) at a later stage ?
> 
> 2. For a compromise solution is it possible/sensible to run C#/ADO.NET  
> for the core business logic, and Rails for the basic data entry  
> interfaces  
> and reporting _simultaneously_ on the same database. This would placate  
> some of the concerns re enterprise readiness.

This is a recipe for disaster IMO. For legacy apps sometimes you have  
to do stuff like that, but going that direction for a new application  
is asking for trouble.

As for running on windows, that’s a choice dictated by the experience  
and preferences of the people who will be running things. My own  
experience tells me that for most applications, you get the least  
headaches by running it in the same environment that the core  
developers use, and what the community is biased towards and uses the  
most.

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**Author:** ![magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/magpie)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542/7 "2006-08-20T18:55:03Z")

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Let me try my best to answer these questions:

1. “not as performant” - any idea of numbers ?

Sure… but it all depends on your setup.  
For example, I have a 2 ghz dual Xeon Windows machine that handles  
requests  
at a whopping 11 requests per second using one instance of Mongrel.  
Similar  
hardware yeilds 50 to 75 requests per second using Ubuntu and Mongrel  
(again, single instance).

You need to know what your ceiling is for your applications. How many  
requests per second do you _need_ to handle, and what is the current  
threshold. If you only need to handle 5 to 8 req/second now, then  
running on  
Windows with a single Mongrel instance will work great for a long long  
time. Don’t forget that page caching and action caching where possible  
will  
REALLY help you push a Windows deployment much much farther than you  
thought  
possible.

We put Rails on a brand new 64-bit 2k3 server with dual 3ghz processors  
and  
got 35 requests per second with a single dispatche.

Here’s what you have to do:

1. Measure an existing (non-Rails) application using httperf (free linux  
program) and get your baseline.
2. Get the new app installed on Windows using Mongrel in production mode
3. Run httperf against this one and see how you compare.

Ruby _is_ much slower on Windows for some reason. It’s been discussed  
before. I have seen much imporved performance on AMD chips though for  
some  
reason and I don’t understand that. (My AMD machines have much better  
response times… go figure.) Adding more Mongrel instances helps a lot  
on  
Windows but it’s harder to manage multiple apps because Mongrel\_cluster  
does  
not work on Windows. I also don’t see as big a gain as I do on Linux.

But Linux is the way to go for long term high volume stuff. If you need  
to  
handle millions of requests per day (10+ req/s) and you’re not seeing it  
with Windows, then you have to move your apps.

1. I’ve got a few in production .They work just fine. See above  
regarding  
loads.

2. Pen works on Windows if you can find it. Apache 2.2 with  
mod\_proxy\_balance works wonderful as well. This will be covered in the  
book

3. The method outlined in my articles and in the book will make moving  
to  
Linux seamless to your organization and your users.

I hope that helps!

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**Author:** ![magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/magpie)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 9:14am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542/8 "2006-08-20T09:14:43Z")

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Brian H. wrote:

> @magpie
> 
> Deployment on Windows is pretty simple, just not as performant as other  
> platforms. I’ve posted on this before. There is a deployment book coming  
> up that will contain a chapter that I wrote which covers this issue in  
> great detail. If you need to talk about this, just drop me a line.
> 
> Of course, that goes for anyone else too.

Thanks Brian - I’ve printed out your Mongrel & IIS article for my  
collection.

“not as performant” - any idea of numbers ?

Also I’m more concerned about reliability. Are you running production  
apps  
on Windows ? Is it a realistic thing to do, or just “experimental” at  
this  
stage ?

Also, what Windows program could I use “in front” of a pack of mongrels  
? Will anything in Win2003 Server do this ? If so, will RoR’s page  
caching still work optimally ?

If I get to the stage of a working RoRoWindows system, I may be able to  
introduce Linux servers, but I’d like to avoid that initially.

Thanks for any advice,

magpie

---

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**Author:** ![magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magpie](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/magpie)\
**Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 6:19am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/potential-enterprise-rails-project/65542/9 "2006-08-21T06:19:54Z")

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I’ve got the go-ahead to use Rails ! He said he wavered between  
“against” to only slightly “for”, but is willing to go with my  
recommendation.  
I’ll be starting this week. It is a distributed app which collects daily  
maintenance data and security video from fleets of public transport  
vehicles. Maybe I’ll be able to share my experiences one day…

Brian H. wrote:

> Sure… but it all depends on your setup.  
> For example, I have a 2 ghz dual Xeon Windows machine that handles  
> requests  
> at a whopping 11 requests per second using one instance of Mongrel.  
> Similar  
> hardware yeilds 50 to 75 requests per second using Ubuntu and Mongrel  
> (again, single instance).

Wow - that is significant. We’ve got similar hardware and can live with  
that sort of performance under Windows, but once running we could  
convert.  
Thanks so much Brian for your advice here. I’ll keep a look out for your  
book.

Regards

Magpie