# IDE - asp.net v. RoR for new programmer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Rails\ **Created:** [August 1, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ide-asp-net-v-ror-for-new-programmer/173079 "2009-08-01T22:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/marcuslee)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ide-asp-net-v-ror-for-new-programmer/173079/1 "2009-08-01T22:54:44Z")
Not trolling here, but genuinely trying to figure out what to use for a project I’d like to create. I’m very new to programming (some intro classes at university) and am debating between learning [asp.net](http://asp.net) versus ruby on rails to create the project. I’d very much prefer to learn ruby, but it seems like the [asp.net](http://asp.net) IDE is better for someone new to web programming like myself. The ability to use a wysiwyg design view in visual studio is a big plus to me since I don’t know how to seriously code pages, buttons, drop downs, tree menus, and other stuff. Sure, I could learn this given some time, but I actually have limited time and would prefer not to attack all of this from the ground up. I tried loading textmate and, while I appreciate how great it would be if I knew what I was doing, there seems to be less “hand-holding” for someone like myself. I was pretty daunted by the big blank page in the middle! My first impression of Visual studio was that it seems to provide more support and have more tools I can use like properties dialogs, the wysiwyg design view, etc. There was just more I could immediately relate to as opposed to textmate. I assume I’m missing something here and am looking for help. Is there a good integrated IDE that allows me to code RoR and also do wysiwyg design to cut corners on the web design aspects of things? Thanks in advance. msm ---
**Author:** ![marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/marcuslee)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ide-asp-net-v-ror-for-new-programmer/173079/2 "2009-08-01T23:42:01Z")
Marcus M. wrote: > I’d very much prefer to learn ruby, but it seems like the [asp.net](http://asp.net) IDE is > better for someone new to web programming like myself. The ability to > use a wysiwyg design view in visual studio is a big plus We have a Wysiwyg Rails designer for Visual Studio in Ruby In Steel. Sounds as though that’s what you are looking for 😉 [http://www.sapphiresteel.com/GUI-Drag-and-Drop-Development-For](http://www.sapphiresteel.com/GUI-Drag-and-Drop-Development-For) best wishes Huw C. SapphireSteel Software [http://www.sapphiresteel.com](http://www.sapphiresteel.com) ---
**Author:** ![marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/marcuslee)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ide-asp-net-v-ror-for-new-programmer/173079/3 "2009-08-01T23:43:34Z")
FWIW I’ve used dot net and am currently learning Ruby/Rails. No simple answer to your qns but you might want consider some other factors besides IDEs etc (BTW - try Netbeans IDE for Ruby R. - free and pretty good but no page designer AFAIK). (or Ruby In Steel if you have Visual Studio), Other things that I think are important: - type of app you are developing - dot net is much more corporate/ institutional; ruby/rails is more startup, open source etc. - coding/languages - pick your poison here (Ruby vs VB or C#) (I prefer Ruby/Python; Static vd Dynamically typed language). Be sure to learn some Ruby coding before jumping into Rails. - try writing and debugging a couple of small programs in both languages and see which you prefer - I like the clean syntax of Ruby/ Python (no braces) vs C#. FWIW I think you can code faster in Ruby once you get going - but there is a learning curve. - perhaps most important - surrounding ecosystem (fellow coders, support, community etc) for when you need help. - maybe it’s just me, but I get the sense that the dot net world is more about business and definitely more corporate - Ruby/Rails is more for the independent minded out there - more about coding for the fun of it. - Hosting - I think dot net hosting is (a little) more expensive than Ruby/Rails/MySQL hosting - difference might be small - but with dot net you may also need SQL Server hosting which adds a bit more expense. - other things you stand to learn - if you go with ruby chances are you will pick up some cross platform skills with complementary technologies (e.g. Linux, MySql etc.). With dot net you are more likely to live in the Windows/Microsoft world. Nothing wrong with that, but as a developer it’s a good idea to have a variety of skills vs a single Platform skill set. Either way you won’t go wrong - just do your homework and make an informed decision. The big investment is your time. Hope this helps, Brendan On Aug 1, 1:54 pm, Marcus M. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) ---
**Author:** ![marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/marcuslee)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 7:43am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ide-asp-net-v-ror-for-new-programmer/173079/4 "2009-08-02T07:43:41Z")
Marcus M. wrote: > Not trolling here, but genuinely trying to figure out what to use for a > project I’d like to create. I’m very new to programming (some intro > classes at university) and am debating between learning [asp.net](http://asp.net) versus > ruby on rails to create the project. Unless you use Mono, [ASP.NET](http://ASP.NET) locks you into Windows. That’s a huge strike against it right there – Windows is not a suitable platform for serious server-side development in the 21st century. > I’d very much prefer to learn ruby, Then do! Ruby is a fantastically well designed language, and Rails is an equally well designed application framework. > but it seems like the [asp.net](http://asp.net) IDE is > better for someone new to web programming like myself. Don’t choose a language based only on IDE. Rails is not well suited to conventional IDEs, since it’s deliberately designed for ease of use and minimal configuration (I just use KomodoEdit and a bunch of terminal windows). I’d almost go so far as to say that if a framework _needs_ an IDE, something is wrong with the design of the framework. > The ability to > use a wysiwyg design view in visual studio is a big plus to me since I > don’t know how to seriously code pages, buttons, drop downs, tree menus, > and other stuff. Hold it. Stop right there. If you don’t know HTML, you have no business coding Web applications yet. Learn HTML well before you even _think_ about doing any server-side programming. > Sure, I could learn this given some time, but I > actually have limited time and would prefer not to attack all of this > from the ground up. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. The Web is built with HTML. If you’re going to work on the Web, you have to be completely comfortable creating HTML code. If you rely on a pretty drag-and-drop interface builder without understanding the HTML it is generating for you, you will wind up with bad HTML – computers are just not smart enough to do it for you. > I tried loading textmate and, while I appreciate how great it would be > if I knew what I was doing, there seems to be less “hand-holding” for > someone like myself. I was pretty daunted by the big blank page in the > middle! Welcome to creative work of any sort. (I’m a composer as well as a programmer. The big blank page of staff paper is still daunting after 30 years of composition.) > My first impression of Visual studio was that it seems to > provide more support and have more tools I can use like properties > dialogs, the wysiwyg design view, etc. Don’t rely on stuff like that. They should be tools (to help with things you already understand, but that are tedious), not crutches (to prevent you from having to think or learn). > There was just more I could > immediately relate to as opposed to textmate. > > I assume I’m missing something here and am looking for help. Is there a > good integrated IDE that allows me to code RoR and also do wysiwyg > design to cut corners on the web design aspects of things? Well, you can use any WYSIWYG HTML editor you like. But only do that once your HTML is good enough that you are absolutely _sure_ that you understand the HTML being generated. _Do not_ rely on automatic tools to save you from learning – they won’t. If you use them without understanding what is being automated, you will simply wind up in a heap of trouble without really understanding how you got there or what to do to get out. Please don’t choose a language based on the presence of idiot-proof IDEs and cute WYSIWYG editors. Those aren’t the things that will matter after 3 months of learning. Language design, however, will be with you every step of the way – that’s what you should be looking at. > Thanks in advance. > > msm ## Best, Marnen Laibow-Koser [http://www.marnen.org](http://www.marnen.org) removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid ---
**Author:** ![marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/marcuslee)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 10:47am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ide-asp-net-v-ror-for-new-programmer/173079/5 "2009-08-02T10:47:56Z")
Can’t agree more with what has been said here. I’m a C#.Net developer that is transitioning to Ruby (finally! Bought the pickaxe three years ago and never got around to it…). Yes VS is a fabulous productivity tool, but I’ve seen plenty of new developers get stumped for lack of understanding of the HTML, Javascript and C# that goes behind it. If all you want to do is learn programming, then it’s a matter of personal preference. If anything, getting your hands “dirtier” in Ruby will make you a better programmer, as without the comfort of VS you’ll have to go deeper 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@marcuslee](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/marcuslee)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 9:49am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/ide-asp-net-v-ror-for-new-programmer/173079/6 "2009-08-02T09:49:24Z")
The real issue that experienced programmers will point out about anything that comes with a giant IDE is that, ultimately, the IDE is an absolute necessity. Many of the frameworks supported by heavy IDEs are so verbose that it’s simply impossible to set everything up by hand (see the current state of Java web apps for an example - XML 'til it hurts!). Furthermore, quite a bit of the functionality in Visual Studio - things like creating app skeletons, etc - is essentially covered by the CLI generators that packages like Rails provide. Maybe not as glitzy, but they work. Finally, the value of having the entire platform’s source code can’t be overstated - it may be intimidating at first, but reading the Rails source can be extremely valuable to a new developer. It’s also the documentation of last resort… 🙂 –Matt J. On Aug 1, 4:54 pm, Marcus M. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid)