The Higgs bozo wrote:
Christophe M. wrote:
Hello Fellow Humans,
Am I the only one who, upon reading the subject line, thought that Earth
was a new programming language?
At last - a way to bridge the distance between software engineers and
activist
hippie chicks!
2009/4/9 Todd B. [email protected]:
Geek 2: Why did you do that?
Geek 1: Uh, duh. The clothes wouldn’t fit.
As long as we pump trillions of dollars back into the economy to prop
it up from a recession/depression then it will be business as usual.
This could be a chance for a re-think on the production process.
Whales, polar bears and butterlies? Who cares? I see them on the TV
and not in the city where I live. Heck, what do I know what happens on
Polar Bear Avenue? What does that have to do with me doing my job of
producing more stuff?
My problem with the whole green issue is not that climate change may
or may be man-made, but what our response is.
I can bet any amount of money you like that it will be the consumer
that fits the bill.
= Water taxes
= Methane taxes
= Green taxes
= Electricity taxes
= Heating efficiency taxes
I say this as it’s easier for a government to say, “we are doing
something about this climate stuff as we are giving the people a
stick”. That’s what I see from my end, over in Merry Olde Englande.
END
Get back to work and do not hit the send button. who wants to read my
rants anyway?
–
John M.
07739 171 531
MSc (DIC)
Timezone: GMT
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Phlip [email protected] wrote:
worst is the oil companies.
Second words is Monsanto, I’d say. Loss of biodiversity in our food
crops could be fatal.
martin
Hi guys,
Thanks for some of your positive responses.
I made my decision not because I was unhappy doing what I was doing. I
truly loved what I was doing. I did experience some of the health
complaints you guys are talking about though.
I made my decision because:
We are presently losing 200 species a day on this planet. That rate is
as high as during the greatest species die offs in the earth’s natural
history, during disasters, like eruptions of super-volcanoes and meteor
impacts. Ecological diversity is of course what keeps us alive.
Climate change is going to be absolutely disastrous. The scientific
community is in the vast majority in thinking that it is man made, that
it is very real and that it is very dangerous. Not just for our
children, but at this point, for ourselves.
Petro-collapse or peak oil, which is not on too many people’s radar
right now, but it will be very soon. Over 30 towns in England have
become ‘Transition Towns’ in order to build resilience against both
petrocollapse and cimate change. Agriculture is entirely dependent on
petrochemicals. 10 calories of petroleum are now being used to produce 1
calorie of food, compared with the 1 to 1 ratio of the 1930s. If you
don’t know what peak oil is you are very dangerously in the dark.
Population overshoot. There are currently 6 billion people on the planet
and growing exponentially. You guys should all be able to guess what
happens when you have a finite resource base but an exponential growth
rate of both economies and populations. The carrying capacity of the
earth w/o constant petrolium input is estimated at between 1 and 3
billion depending on who you ask.
I closed my eyes to all these facts for years hoping they would go away
and that somebody would ‘be on it’, but they didn’t and they aren’t.
Just a single one of those 4 forces is massive and all of them combined
are at this point probably insurmountable. The longer we wait the harder
will be the crash.
But… I found permaculture which was designed by scientists (ecologists
and systems theorists), and believe it has great promise and that it
could completely revolutionize agriculture. Not only that but it is
tremendously energy efficient and increases biodiversity and soil
health. i.e. it is the complete opposite of current agricultural
practices. I think it would be very attractive to software people,
especially open source types, as it is all about design and small scale
local interactions. It even uses design patterns.
When I saw that there was hope, I had a sort of spiritual awakening, a
crumbling of the walls of denial, and a grieving for the planet we are
about to destroy, that’s why I’m leaving, and that is why I am planning
on talking to as many people as I can. There will be more and more of us
‘dropping out’ in the near future as the forces described above start to
become plainly obvious in not so nice ways.
So you see, it is not about back pain, or if my lamp is bad for me. I’m
sorry, I know it’s a downer, but it’s time for people to start talking
to each other about this stuff, especially smart people like yourselves.
It’s life or death now, but the problem is that humans, even the
smartest humans do not react to threats unless they are directly in
front of them in plain view. We have our own evolutionary psychology to
blame for this.
We need all the brains of the earth on this one.
Good Luck.
OK - BYE
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Christophe M.
[email protected] wrote:
Hi guys,
Thanks for some of your positive responses.
I would really discuss some of these points with you but I am afraid
that it is too OT to do it here.
OTOH maybe this is just important enough anyway. I dunno.
As a compromise I will ask some questions here and send you a private
mail later on, if and only if this is ok for you.
Probably you think that you can do more for the cause by not being a
programmer or sysadmin or architect anymore.
However, what can we (those who believe that their talents are in
programming or creating systems on distributed Linux boxes etc.etc.)
do to help? Any ideas, pointers?
Thx in advance
Robert
Even the things we love most have a dark side… in my opinion if you
feel like what you’re doing cannot contribute positively (and you care
about that) then yes, you should probably leave it. But if you really
love it, shouldn’t you try to find a way to make it work?
On Apr 8, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Christophe M. wrote:
I am writing today to say my goodbyes to Ruby
So long and thanks for all the fish.
On Thursday 09 April 2009 07:10:23 Eleanor McHugh wrote:
On 9 Apr 2009, at 09:49, Robert D. wrote:
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Eleanor McHugh
[email protected] wrote:
oh dear, on that basis I’m screwed then
Ahem, you mean doomed, right?
Call me an optimist, but to quote Buffy: “there’s always another
apocalypse”
Buffy also died twice. I don’t know that’s the kind of optimism we want!
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 12:08 AM, Robert D. [email protected]
wrote:
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Christophe M.
[email protected] wrote:Hi guys,
Thanks for some of your positive responses.
I would really discuss some of these points with you but I am afraid
that it is too OT to do it here.
OTOH maybe this is just important enough anyway. I dunno.
Yes, it is. Moreover i think anyone not interested in further
discussion is probably familiar enough with the thread to ignore or
mute it.
+1 to continue here.
[…]
However, what can we (those who believe that their talents are in
programming or creating systems on distributed Linux boxes etc.etc.)
do to help? Any ideas, pointers?
I for one would love to hear responses to that question in particular.
In any case, my thanks to Christophe for posting, caring and taking
action.
solidarity,
lasitha
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Christophe M.
[email protected] wrote:
we know is destroying our planet, yet which we
Hey, the planet is doing just fine!
And always remember: If you are not part of the problem, then you are part of
the solution!
The problem with that is that for most people it’s always the others
who are part of the problem. Could you imagine that people start
shouting: “Yeah, we know we are the problem so let’s just go home and
simply forget about those stupid things we’re supposed to be doing.”
Which for whatever reason reminds me of B Brecht “Imagine there is a
war and nobody comes.” Kudos to the OP.
Why not use your skills to work on solving the problem then? I doubt
the
solutions are going to be found by people in caves using abaci passing
parchments back and forth via pony express. Like it or not (and
sometimes I
don’t) the technology-enabled world isn’t going anywhere, and I think
that,
regardless of your feelings about it, you’ve got to be honest enough
with
yourself to accept as constraints the things that are perhaps not ideal
but
that also aren’t immediately changeable. Or even attack the perceived
problems using the leverage technology offers: global communications,
distributed computing for problem solving, etc.
I respect your convictions very much. I just fear some kind of
society-wide
brain drain if all the smart people suddenly decide to tune in, turn on
and
drop out.
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 6:59 AM, lasitha [email protected]
wrote:
Right, this thread should be quite known now :).
[…]
However, what can we (those who believe that their talents are in
programming or creating systems on distributed Linux boxes etc.etc.)
do to help? Any ideas, pointers?I for one would love to hear responses to that question in particular.
In any case, my thanks to Christophe for posting, caring and taking action.
Thanks for the encouragement. I have said it in a private post to Bill
Kelly before, Christophe indeed has become one of the most valuable
contributors to this list with his goodbye message, IMHO. He indicated
some keywords which are part of answering my questions. I am
particularly fascinated with this one
Permaculture - Wikipedia.
Christophe mentioned patterns interesting for programming too (as they
are general design patterns).
I retained two concepts which I always found very fascinating, but not
that easy to implement: Small and Slow.
Small systems are manageable, e.g. Small Is Beautiful. And Slow
systems are more likely to be thought out, easier to support by
(human) nature. If one adds my personal favorite design principle, as
simple as possible but not simpler (A.Einstein), we got three Esses.
SSS.
I also believe that Permaculture comes from farming environments but
is a highly intellectual approach not denying progress or achievements
but submitting it to critics (do we need this, or can we afford this).
OTOH progress is even needed to solve given problems.
If I understood it correctly we would live in quite a different world
today if permaculture had been applied for some centuries now. Just
one personal vision, what might have happened: Maybe no cell phones
but more medical knowledge (but on second thoughts advanced
communication technologies might having been developed as a side
product of medical technologies research and due to its usefulness in
a highly decentralized society). Would we have traveled to the moon? I
daresay no, but the idea for space travel would exist for centuries
and people would work on it, but slowly. The day the first man would
step on our satellite she would see a green paradise that would
resemble much more to paradise.
Nuff dreaming for today.
Robert
Oh noes!
The world is gonna collapse…
Christophe M. wrote:
We are presently losing 200 species a day on this planet. That rate is
as high as during the greatest species die offs in the earth’s natural
history,
I’m not sure where you’re getting your data, but 200 species/day
wouldn’t even be close to “the greatest species die offs.” (That sounds
like a new series on Fox.) To paraphrase Davy Crocket, remember the
Permian!
Climate change is going to be absolutely disastrous. The scientific
community is in the vast majority in thinking that it is man made, that
it is very real and that it is very dangerous. Not just for our
children, but at this point, for ourselves.
What are you going to do about it? Hide on a farm, making tie-dyes and
hoping for a quick death?
Agriculture is entirely dependent on petrochemicals.
For some definition of “entirely” that means something completely
different from “entirely.” See The Omnivore’s Dilemma, by Michael
Pollan, for a quick tour of the American food supply system.
Population overshoot. There are currently 6 billion people on the planet
and growing exponentially. You guys should all be able to guess what
happens when you have a finite resource base but an exponential growth
rate of both economies and populations. The carrying capacity of the
earth w/o constant petrolium input is estimated at between 1 and 3
billion depending on who you ask.
It doesn’t work that way. We have extraordinarily abundant sources of
energy available; the economic incentives just haven’t been sufficient
to tap them yet. As demand for energy goes up, and the oil supply goes
down, we’ll turn to alternative sources. (Actually, I suspect this has
already started.)
The problem is neither population growth, nor lack of resources, but
that we’re polluting our environment to the point that it’s going to
react violently. If you want to save the planet, help us figure out
what to do about that.
I closed my eyes to all these facts for years hoping they would go away
and that somebody would ‘be on it’, but they didn’t and they aren’t.
Just a single one of those 4 forces is massive and all of them combined
are at this point probably insurmountable. The longer we wait the harder
will be the crash.
So overall, Nostradamus, would you say you’re cautiously optimistic?
But… I found permaculture which was designed by scientists
So were the A-bomb, GMO foods, and most of those petrochemicals you’ve
already condemned. Not to mention digital watches (shiver).
and systems theorists), and believe it has great promise and that it
could completely revolutionize agriculture. Not only that but it is
tremendously energy efficient and increases biodiversity and soil
health. i.e. it is the complete opposite of current agricultural
practices.
You can have all the “tremendously energy efficient” enclaves you want,
and it won’t address the problem. The problem is specific to several
widely-used technologies. Screaming about them won’t help; the only
reasonable way to stop people from using those technologies is to
replace them (the technologies, not the people) with something
compellingly better.
Suppose everybody had Walkmen [1], but they were killing the planet.
What would be the fastest way to shelve all those horrid little devices?
Hint: Invent the iPod.
[1] For you young’ns: Walkmen were portable cassette tape players, used
by primitive western cultures for listening to music. Yes, they
predated even the Compact Disc!
When I saw that there was hope, I had a sort of spiritual awakening,
Oh jeez, here we go…
a crumbling of the walls of denial, and a grieving for the planet we are
about to destroy, that’s why I’m leaving,
Leaving what? “The planet we are about to destroy?” If we’re
destroying the planet, there’s nowhere safe to go but space. (That’s
not really safe either, lacking oxygen, warmth, and broadband internet
access.)
and that is why I am planning
on talking to as many people as I can. There will be more and more of us
‘dropping out’ in the near future
Don’t drink the Kool Aid.
It’s life or death now, but the problem is that humans, even the
smartest humans do not react to threats unless they are directly in
front of them in plain view. We have our own evolutionary psychology to
blame for this.We need all the brains of the earth on this one.
So you’re “leaving.” Thanks.
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Jeff S. [email protected]
wrote:
Christophe M. wrote:
That you do not agree with Christophe I understand, that some of the
ideas make you afraid I understand.
That you do not investigate further or ask questions that I am surprised
about.We need all the brains of the earth on this one.
So you’re “leaving.” Thanks.
That you insult him comes as a big shock to me!
Cheers
Robert
–
Si tu veux construire un bateau …
Ne rassemble pas des hommes pour aller chercher du bois, préparer des
outils, répartir les tâches, alléger le travail… mais enseigne aux
gens la nostalgie de l’infini de la mer.
If you want to build a ship, don’t herd people together to collect
wood and don’t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to
long for the endless immensity of the sea.
On 10 Apr 2009, at 04:33, David M. wrote:
apocalypse"
Buffy also died twice. I don’t know that’s the kind of optimism we
want!
Well I think it’s all that’s on offer.
Ellie
raise ArgumentError unless @reality.responds_to? :reason
On 8 avr. 09, at 18:25, Christophe M. wrote:
would call Ruby one of the loves of my life.
but it is only in mass that we will succeed. This is
your shells, please feel free to contact me privately,
and I will be glad to speak with you. I am not a
psychotherapist but I may have something to contribute,
besides we have Ruby at least in common.Goodbye Ruby my Dear,
ChristophePosted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
I appreciate the sentiment. But if I wrote less Ruby I’d probably
drive more.
Thanks in part to Ruby I rarely even need to commute. Maybe Ruby loves
the Earth.
Thanks in part to Ruby I rarely even need to commute.
Just because the Internet doesn’t move, doesn’t mean its maintenance
doesn’t require energy.
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