On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 12:18:20AM +0900, Christian N. wrote:
how will the computer?) Actually, I can’t see of a good reason to do
.yllaunam etirw uoy fi ssel dnah ruoy gnivom naht rehto ti
. . . and how useless is that, when pretty much all my “writing” is done
with a keyboard anyway?
–
Chad P. [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
unix virus: If you’re using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.
Hal F. wrote on 12/20/2005 3:33 PM:
As for significant whitespace – surely it’s a matter of opinion whether
this is the “right” way or not. One can make arguments in both directions.
I was initially drawn to the idea, but after playing with it, I found it
had its drawbacks.
i’ll say. when one space too many or too few can mean time spent
hunting it down to make a program work i think it’s a serious design
flaw in a language.
near the end of my python experience i found my self using console
based editors so i could see the spacing a lot easier.
Hal F. wrote on 12/20/2005 3:33 PM:
I really don’t understand the point of this. If you like Python, use it.
If you like Ruby, use it. I am in the latter category.
i usually get slammed for pointing out the following (my hatemail, and
spam always go way up)
in my opinion it seems like python people just aren’t happy with: “if
you like python, use python. if you like ruby, use ruby.” or “add BOTH
python and ruby in your toolbox”
i think the above is sage advice, but in my year in python land: you
used python exclusively (because it was the best). no need to use any
other language. they weren’t interested comparisons. if
language had a feature that python didn’t then that feature was
“useless”, “implemented wrong”, or “this is the way we do that in
python, it’s the best way to do it.”
i think the best way to compare the two languages is to learn them. i
used python for about a year, and i’ve used ruby now, for 2 years or so.
i came from a perl background so ruby was relatively easy to pick up.
but i also like and use tcl/tk on a regular basis. i don’t use python
anymore because there is ruby
the choice for me was easy because it was so clear.
as an aside, my all time favorite feature in ruby is the threading i
don’t care if it’s native or not. i tend to overuse threads, if a
program can be sped up at all with threads, i use them.
On Thursday 22 December 2005 09:03 am, tony summerfelt wrote:
Hal F. wrote on 12/20/2005 3:33 PM:
As for significant whitespace – surely it’s a matter of
opinion whether this is the “right” way or not. One can make
arguments in both directions. I was initially drawn to the
idea, but after playing with it, I found it had its drawbacks.i’ll say. when one space too many or too few can mean time spent
hunting it down to make a program work i think it’s a serious
design flaw in a language.
That’s why I use tabs and only tabs for indentation, in any
language. You can set Vim or enscript to make a tabstop ever 3
columns, but there’s no way to mistakenly put too few or too many.
I think spaces are OK also, but when people start mixing tabs and
spaces, I just gotta scream.
SteveT
Steve L.
Steve L. wrote:
That’s why I use tabs and only tabs for indentation, in any
language.
Oh Lord, lets not go there… 
ha +1
j.
On 12/22/05, Bob S. [email protected] wrote:
Steve L. wrote:
That’s why I use tabs and only tabs for indentation, in any
language.Oh Lord, lets not go there…
–
“Remember. Understand. Believe. Yield! → http://ruby-lang.org”
Jeff W.
Chad P. [email protected] wrote:
That’s just me, though – just like your impression that it’s
“right” is just you.
Ok, to be fair, that “right” above is my opinion.
And like I said in the bit that was snipped, if more CS students
were taught to indent correctly, I probably wouldn’t be so
opinionated on this matter.
Cheers!
Tim H.
Chad P. wrote:
Nikolai W. ha scritto:
[stuff that I havenâ??t written, and really doesnâ??t relate to what I
wrote in the first place]
Why is my name still in this?
nikolaiChad P. [email protected] wrote:
Jeff W. wrote:
at least they are BOTH taking away from the Perl community
& the other static/compiled languages out there …What’s up with the “hate Perl and static languages” routine?
I like Perl, and I still use Perl. Both Perl and Ruby coexist
quite happily in my skillset.
I second. Obviously Matz liked something about Perl enough for
it to significantly influence Ruby.
The Python v. Ruby argument makes sense. Perl only had one
serious drawback in by book (horrid OO), which was nicely fixed
by Ruby.
As I still have a lot of previous work and experience invested
in Perl, I still use it frequently; but I see no reason to
declare war on it.
Cheers,
Tim H.
On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 06:36:06AM +0900, Nikolai W. wrote:
Chad P. wrote:
Nikolai W. ha scritto:
[stuff that I havenâ??t written, and really doesnâ??t relate to what I
wrote in the first place]Why is my name still in this?
nikolai
I hit “dd” one time too few, and an extra line was left in the email by
accident. If you pay attention to the indention of name-cites, you may
notice that the way my previous email was structured essentially
attributes no words to you at all. There are three previous email
authors cited, and two pieces of quoted text.
–
Chad P. [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
unix virus: If you’re using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.
In message Vh%[email protected], Timothy H.
[email protected] writes
Just a thought: a programming language that is free, easy to learn,
rewards mastery, and has flocks of eager devotees who want to share
their knowledge for free offers little incentive to a guy who needs to
earn a living writing and lecturing and teaching and consulting.
Disagree. The type of people that pay his lecturing fees will always be
willing to pay for lectures regardless of language. There are plenty of
people lecturing on the VB circuit.
If anything I’d go the opposite - it provides him with a potentially
larger army of potential attendees at such conferences, especially if
Ruby goes mainstream.
Funny, I read the article Hal referred to this morning and then found
this thread later today. I felt the article kind of didn’t say much
other than “there is no reason to change to Ruby if you already know
Python”.
As part of our software tool beta tests we talk with software engineers
that use a variety of languages. I was chatting with a very keen beta
tester of a Python flow tracer product and asked if he had tried Ruby as
I preferred it to Python. His answer was that he didn’t have the time
(professionally) or time and energy in his private life (father,
husband, etc) to learn Ruby for fun. It would need to be for a
commercial reason and he had none. I guess many in the Python camp won’t
change language unless they have a business reason to change.
Stephen
In message [email protected], Tim H.
[email protected] writes
have functional equivalents in Ruby. The other is significant
whitespace.
If you want to drive people away from Ruby, go with that.
Stephen
On Dec 23, 2005, at 8:32 AM, Stephen K. wrote:
His answer was that he didn’t have the time (professionally) or
time and energy in his private life (father, husband, etc) to learn
Ruby for fun. It would need to be for a commercial reason and he
had none. I guess many in the Python camp won’t change language
unless they have a business reason to change.
At one level I understand this point of view. But at the same time, how
difficult is it to read a book? If your professional and personal
life is
so busy that you can’t find time to read a book or to learn about a new
topic then I think your priorities need to be re-evaluated. I’m not
saying
that learning Ruby should be on the top of everyone’s todo list but I do
think it is important to regularly expose yourself to new ideas for both
your personal and professional health.
Gary W.
Stephen K. wrote:
topic then I think your priorities need to be re-evaluated. I’m not
sayingThats an easy statement to make but it ignores each the circumstances
surrounding each person. I agree with you and I’m sure the chap I was
talking with does too, but its clear he has no business reason to go
that route - his time is more effectively spent elsewhere.
Exactly! His time is more effectively spent elsewhere.
When somethings demonstrably >10x “better” we need to learn and change,
otherwise it’s probably more effective to build on existing expertise.
In message [email protected],
[email protected] writes
At one level I understand this point of view. But at the same time, how
difficult is it to read a book?
Very, if you are too tired to take it in. If you are busy with work and
have a young family I doubt it would be that easy.
If your professional and personal life is
so busy that you can’t find time to read a book or to learn about a new
topic then I think your priorities need to be re-evaluated. I’m not
saying
Thats an easy statement to make but it ignores each the circumstances
surrounding each person. I agree with you and I’m sure the chap I was
talking with does too, but its clear he has no business reason to go
that route - his time is more effectively spent elsewhere.
I think he’d be more interested in reading about a new technology he can
use without ditching his currently favoured language(s). Which is partly
where Mr Eckel is coming from (referring to Django rather than changing
languages and learning Rails)
Stephen
On 12/23/05, Kevin B. [email protected] wrote:
And honestly, if the guy doesn’t want to learn Ruby, that’s fine, I certainly
don’t want to learn Python, but I don’t claim that I’ve tried either.
Yeah that is the thing: if you are happy with what you have and trying
something new doesn’t give you some measurable benefit, then don’t
worry about it. I really can’t begrudge Bruce Eckel or others with
this kind of opinion.
But still, I do agree with the Pragmatic Programmer advice of trying a
new language each year to keep your mind fresh and to give you new
ideas on how to use your favorite or most-used language in better
ways. Maybe for Pythonistas the differences in Ruby aren’t enough to
warrant them learning it. Same with us Rubyists when it comes to
learning Python.
Though I have done some Python and the significant whitespace and
“tacked-on” feeling of object-orientation left a bad taste in my
mouth. For me, Ruby fits better. For others, Python is a better fit,
and that is fine.
Ryan
On Friday 23 December 2005 11:57, Stephen K. wrote:
In message [email protected],
[email protected] writesAt one level I understand this point of view. But at the same time, how
difficult is it to read a book?Very, if you are too tired to take it in. If you are busy with work and
have a young family I doubt it would be that easy.
And honestly, if the guy doesn’t want to learn Ruby, that’s fine, I
certainly
don’t want to learn Python, but I don’t claim that I’ve tried either.
On Dec 23, 2005, at 12:57 PM, Stephen K. wrote:
In message [email protected],
[email protected] writesAt one level I understand this point of view. But at the same
time, how
difficult is it to read a book?Very, if you are too tired to take it in. If you are busy with work
and have a young family I doubt it would be that easy.
It really scares me to hear that people don’t have time to read.
Even 10 minutes in bed before you nod off is better than nothing.
Note, I didn’t say that Ruby should be at the top of your list but
I really do think it is important to find time to read.
I wasn’t trying trying to make a point about Ruby but instead just
a general point about finding time to read in order to know what
is going on in your industry, your community, and the world.
One of the questions I ask in interviews is what sort of professional
development the applicant has pursued. Web sites they read, magazines
they follow, books they learned from and so on. If I get a blank
stare or something about being too busy for that…
Gary W.
On Sat, Dec 24, 2005 at 05:04:41AM +0900, [email protected] wrote:
It really scares me to hear that people don’t have time to read.
Even 10 minutes in bed before you nod off is better than nothing.
Note, I didn’t say that Ruby should be at the top of your list but
I really do think it is important to find time to read.
I couldn’t agree more.
Still, sometimes I go three days without reading anything. I make up
for it on the days I read for several hours. It probably helps that I
don’t spend any of my free time doing things like watching football or
Survivor, though.
One of the questions I ask in interviews is what sort of professional
development the applicant has pursued. Web sites they read, magazines
they follow, books they learned from and so on. If I get a blank
stare or something about being too busy for that…
Careful who you ask that of. Give me a chance to hold forth on a
subject like that, and you might not be able to shut me up.
–
Chad P. [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
unix virus: If you’re using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.
Isaac,
On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 07:47 +0900, Isaac G. wrote:
Rather than yet more technical knowledge, the area that frequently
needs improvement is skill in communicating and working with others -
so maybe if they read “How the way we talk can change the way we work”
or “Difficult Conversations: How to discuss what matters most” or
“One-to-One in the Workplace”
Great stuff! - I will get these, I think they will be very useful.
The things you find out about on a programming list . .
Regards,
Philip R.
Pricom Pty Limited (ACN 003 252 275 ABN 91 003 252 275)
GPO Box 3411
Sydney NSW 2001
Australia
Mobile: +61:(0)411-185-652
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