On 12/20/05, Chad P. [email protected] wrote:
Since I’m pretty well dedicated to vim as my primary editor, the same
operation is always bound to the same keystroke. Choosing the
specific tools you use in the Linux IDE is roughly equivalent to
personalizing the settings for a highly configurable IDE product like
Eclipse or Visual Studio. Well – maybe not equivalent, but analogous,
at any rate.
Am i the only one that thinks Linux and IDE should not be in the same
sentance?
Hi!
At Tue, 20 Dec 2005 05:20:40 +0900, Chad P. wrote:
I always just kinda figured that Linux is my IDE.
To quote Sting’s famous song “Russians”: I don’s subscribe to this
point of view.
Please recall that IDE means ‘integrated development environment’.
Many attributes apply to Unix as an environment but ‘integrated’
definitely is not among them.
Let me illustrate this with an example that sometimes make me hack my
keyboard instead of hacking on it:
For searching forward for some string you may need to use Ctrl-F,
Ctrl-S or ‘/’ depending on which program you are currently using
(shell, editor, debugger). Integration on the other hand would require
that the same operation is always bound to the same keystroke.
The Emacs operating system and the vim editor are much closer to an
IDE than Unix.
To give an example: In Emacs in order to open a file in the editor you
use ‘find-file’ and provide a file name. In order to open a directory
in dired-mode you use the same ‘find-file’ command.
Some vim users may be surprised but vim actually has a similar
feature. If you enter “vim .” vim will list all files in the current
directory, will allow to change to subdirectories, and opens a file if
you select one - a true vi does not have this feature.
I used to do almost anything with vim but now I uses escape, meta,
alt, Ctrl, Shift (Emacs for short) most of the time. To put it this
way: Emacs is a mega swiss army knife. It is not very handy but it is
one single tool that can be used for anything - it even can cook
coffee(*).
Josef ‘Jupp’ Schugt
(*) Well, sort of. I personally use a manually operated coffee mill, a
water cooker and a Brazilian style coffee machine to cook my
coffee - this method is not yet supported by Emacs. It requires an
RFC-compliant coffee machine (such an RFC exists indeed ;-).
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 02:53 +0900, Wilson B. wrote:
I don’t have windows. But on linux it was done in 1 minute.
cd salma-hayek
make
cd …/edit
make
Do you have ruby and java installed? You need both for edit AFAIK.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 04:31:33AM +0900, Gregory B. wrote:
On 12/20/05, Chad P. [email protected] wrote:
Since I’m pretty well dedicated to vim as my primary editor, the same
operation is always bound to the same keystroke. Choosing the
specific tools you use in the Linux IDE is roughly equivalent to
personalizing the settings for a highly configurable IDE product like
Eclipse or Visual Studio. Well – maybe not equivalent, but analogous,
at any rate.Am i the only one that thinks Linux and IDE should not be in the same sentance?
I guess that depends on how you mean that.
–
Chad P. [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
unix virus: If you’re using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.
On 12/20/05, Chad P. [email protected] wrote:
Am i the only one that thinks Linux and IDE should not be in the same sentance?
I guess that depends on how you mean that.
The power of GNU/Linux lies in the very fact that it is NOT an IDE.
You are taking it to mean development environment, and it certainly is
a fine one.
But the thing that makes GNU/Linux differ from any sort of IDE is that
it does not enforce a particular toolset over another one. With some
effort, you can have an effectively standardized platform on linux,
but in general, it’s a ton of tools duct taped together in the way the
individual developer enjoys most.
Calling it an IDE is an over abstraction… and is just plain wrong,
both in the sense of the word, and in the philisophical sense.
However, calling it a fine development platform that precludes the
need for an IDE, while controversial and debatable, would be something
I’d agree on.
On 12/20/05, Alexander J. [email protected] wrote:
are using TextMate ( on MAC OS ?) It seems pretty effective.
–Wilson.I don’t have windows. But on linux it was done in 1 minute.
cd salma-hayek
make
cd …/edit
makeDo you have ruby and java installed? You need both for edit AFAIK.
Yeah, it just has some dependencies on things that don’t exist on
Windows. I’ll just use Cygwin, and not go against the grain. Cool
site, by the way… I like the look of “Terminator” as well. Great
name for a terminal program.
On 12/18/05, Chad P. [email protected] wrote:
On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 04:32:37AM +0900, James B. wrote:
(I’m quite happy using vim, Windows file manager, and a handful of
custom Ruby shell scripts and Unix command ports for finding and
manipulating stuff from the command line. If there’s something else findCare to share any details?
When I’m on windows the first thing I do is install MSys/MingGW.
This lets me use cmd.exe and avoid the mess that is cygwin. MSys
gives you ‘most’ of the necessary unix commands, meaning you could
then hack together scripts using backticks or even platform
independant scripts with Ruby and that should do the trick.
I too use vim on OS X, FreeBSD, a slew of linux distros and windows.
Nice to be able to have the same editor act (mostly) the same way on
so many systems…
On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 07:22:50AM +0900, Gregory B. wrote:
This lets me use cmd.exe and avoid the mess that is cygwin. MSys
gives you ‘most’ of the necessary unix commands, meaning you could
then hack together scripts using backticks or even platform
independant scripts with Ruby and that should do the trick.
I guess I should have been more precise in my question:
I was wondering what sort of scripts, et cetera, you use to round out
your development kit. I’m primarily a Linux user that makes heavy use
of vim and shell file browsing commands (ls and its friends) for
development. I’m looking for ideas for how to fine-tune my patchwork
development environment further.
–
Chad P. [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
unix virus: If you’re using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.
Chad P. wrote:
On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 04:32:37AM +0900, James B. wrote:
(I’m quite happy using vim, Windows file manager, and a handful of
custom Ruby shell scripts and Unix command ports for finding and
manipulating stuff from the command line. If there’s something else findCare to share any details?
I have a few vim macros/mappings that insert text for common situations,
such as creating the ‘initialize’ method, or inserting the skeletal code
for in-file unit testing. Plus the things that come with the ruby-vim
menus and macro plugin (auto completion of certain Ruby control-flow
expression, quote, bracket, and paren closing; running the current
buffer by pressing f5; calling up ri for text under the cursor, and so
on).
I have some command-line scripts to do very simple things. Most handy
is a grep-like thing that will find files based on some given file name
pattern; it searches from the current directory, and emits a numbered
list of matches. Type a number and the corresponding file opens in vim.
I can also run it with a second parameter to name the application that
should open the selected matching file (handy for finding and playing
mp3s).
There’s some port of unix tools I’ve installed (not cygwin, something
else) so I can run grep, ls, a few others.
I try to keep my files small, tend to embed unit tests in the same file
as each class, and don’t have a strong need for an uber-IDE. Ruby makes
it easy enough to assemble little helper tools if I get tired of
repeating commands.
I often switch from Windows to Linux, and don’t always have the option
of running a GUI shell, so sticking to vi makes life simpler (and the
same can be said of emacs and other Unix-based editors).
I keep multiple cmd.exe windows open (here’s a tip: use the ‘title’
command to name your Windows.); each of my project has a Ruby script
that opens up various cmd shells, each distinctly titled and colored so
I can more easily tell them apart. I’ve Ruby tools for bouncing
servers, launching browsers, updating remote servers, deploying
applications, running tests. (These should perhaps be Rake tasks, and
some of them have been ported, but that’s not a habit I’ve acquired.)
Overall, I’m more of a fan of lots of little tools that play together
than The O. True Tool.
James B.
–
http://www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
Ruby Code & Style - Ruby Code & Style: Writers wanted
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
http://www.30secondrule.com - Building Better Tools
Gregory B. wrote:
When I’m on windows the first thing I do is install MSys/MingGW.
This lets me use cmd.exe and avoid the mess that is cygwin. MSys
gives you ‘most’ of the necessary unix commands, meaning you could
then hack together scripts using backticks or even platform
independant scripts with Ruby and that should do the trick.I too use vim on OS X, FreeBSD, a slew of linux distros and windows.
Nice to be able to have the same editor act (mostly) the same way on
so many systems…
There are also the gnu-win32 tools, which give you the usual
ls/grep/diff/yadayada as ordinary windows command line programs, and you
don’t need the MSYS baggage:
(Though if you want the gcc build chain or you need a BASH-like
environment for other reasons, MSYS/MinGW is the way to go.)
On 12/18/05, Chad P. [email protected] wrote:
\
I was wondering what sort of scripts, et cetera, you use to round out
your development kit. I’m primarily a Linux user that makes heavy use
of vim and shell file browsing commands (ls and its friends) for
development. I’m looking for ideas for how to fine-tune my patchwork
development environment further.
How much more do you need? Maybe you should be asking about featurs
you’d like or issues you’ve run into and we can offer our
suggestions. Vim, standard unix commands, some rakefiles to automate
building gems, generating and uploading documentation, packaging my
code, running tests, etc do most of what I need for Ruby. For
non-ruby development such as C, I use things like splint and foo(1),
the latter being this weird little thing I wrote (a ruby util) that I
doubt would be super useful to anyone.
I make heavy use of ! in vim and just use the shell directly a lot of
the time no matter what kind of development I am doing. Most of what
I need is right in vim itself with a little helpful support from
vim-ruby. Heck, vim even handles generating html versions of your
source for you!
(1) Foo [ use at your own risk]
http://www.stonecode.org/blog/?p=30
On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 11:43:57AM +0900, Gregory B. wrote:
suggestions. Vim, standard unix commands, some rakefiles to automate
building gems, generating and uploading documentation, packaging my
code, running tests, etc do most of what I need for Ruby. For
non-ruby development such as C, I use things like splint and foo(1),
the latter being this weird little thing I wrote (a ruby util) that I
doubt would be super useful to anyone.
I don’t really have specific needs I want addressed. To quote myself:
“I’m looking for ideas”. That’s all. A mention of using vim with some
automation scripts sparked my curiosity, as 'twere. It’s the stuff I
haven’t yet thought of that I’m hoping to get out of this.
(1) Foo [ use at your own risk]
http://www.stonecode.org/blog/?p=30
I’ll have a look at that. Thanks for the link.
–
Chad P. [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
unix virus: If you’re using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 08:48:54AM +0900, James B. wrote:
Overall, I’m more of a fan of lots of little tools that play together
than The O. True Tool.
As am I. Thanks for the run-down: that was much the sort of information
I was looking for.
–
Chad P. [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
unix virus: If you’re using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 06:13:13AM +0900, Gregory B. wrote:
The power of GNU/Linux lies in the very fact that it is NOT an IDE.
You are taking it to mean development environment, and it certainly is
a fine one.
That depends on what you mean by “integrated”. I mean “integrated” in
that, once I get it all set up, it works together beautifully. You seem
to mean “integrated” as in “someone else integrated what they like, and
now I have to live with it”.
Calling it an IDE is an over abstraction… and is just plain wrong,
both in the sense of the word, and in the philisophical sense.
However, calling it a fine development platform that precludes the
need for an IDE, while controversial and debatable, would be something
I’d agree on.
Tomayto, tomahto. Either way, I rather like it.
–
Chad P. [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
unix virus: If you’re using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.
On 12/22/05, Chad P. [email protected] wrote:
That depends on what you mean by “integrated”. I mean “integrated” in
that, once I get it all set up, it works together beautifully. You seem
to mean “integrated” as in “someone else integrated what they like, and
now I have to live with it”.
My only point is that it does not make sense in the terms of what the
OP was looking for to suggest GNU/Linux as an option and claim it’s an
IDE. It’s not.
I am a loyal *nix user, but it begins to get annoying when people
evangelize the platform for the wrong reasons to the wrong target
audience.
I doubt anyone would describe any operating system, much less one as
fragmented as GNU/Linux, as being an IDE. The meaning of the word is
rather clear (to most people).
I guess what I’m saying is, rather than making some random comment
about how GNU/ Linux IS your IDE, you might have explained why
GNU/Linux might preclude the need for an IDE in the first place.
That would be more helpful. I am seeing more and more threads with
people begging us not to flame on about our particular choices for
various things. I also see a lot of ‘community x is very opinionated
about technology or concept y’
To me, that type of logic fits ideally in some places, not so much in
others. If someone is looking for VisualStudio for Ruby, don’t offer
them shell scripts and vim. And if you do, make a good (and
understandable) case for them. The goal is to help people here,
right?
Sorry for ranting on… I just think things like this make the
difference when it comes to helping people. Either answer the
question as best as you can or explain why there is a better question
they can be asking.
KDevelop is an IDE as someone pointed out. GNU/Linux is not. Under
your assumption, one could percieve that notepad running on windows,
an FTP server to a *nix box somewhere on the internet, a web browser,
and a toaster with little jet engines on it running via some RPC
somehow constitutes an Integrated Development Environment.
Do I feel like my environment works nicely with everything else on my
Gentoo box? Absolutely.
But be careful using technical words to describe your own (rather
peculiar) abstract concept regarding a specific software
categorization.
And finally, a little bit of real content in the midst of a rant:
From wikipedia:
“Today, the term “IDE” is a contrast to unrelated command-line tools,
such as vi, emacs, or make. While one could think of Unix as an IDE,
most developers think of an IDE as being (or having the appearance of)
a single program in which all development is done.”
(Integrated development environment - Wikipedia)
I get what you’re saying, I just think it’s a little off the mark and
misleading to people who might not clearly understand the subtle
difference between an integrated environment and a tool oriented
system.
Anyway, that’s enough rambling on. As long as you’re coding happily
in whatever environment that works for you, I suppose the name doesn’t
matter terribly. I’ve just always been one for semantics.
-Greg
On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 04:07:24PM +0900, Gregory B. wrote:
Sorry for ranting on… I just think things like this make the
difference when it comes to helping people. Either answer the
question as best as you can or explain why there is a better question
they can be asking.
Here’s the problem:
I made an off-hand comment. You told me how I was wrong, at great
length. I explained, briefly, how what I said was perfectly consistent
from my perspective. You held forth at greater length about how I’m a
bad boy and, additionally, wrong.
Take a chill pill. Mountains out of molehills, m’friend.
Oh, and one more time, in case you didn’t get my previous point:
Tomayto, tomahto. To make the point more clear:
Tomato, tomato.
Same thing, different perspectives.
Aside from that, I don’t much care if you have any more criticism to
offer me and my clearly Wrong opinions.
Anyway, that’s enough rambling on. As long as you’re coding happily
in whatever environment that works for you, I suppose the name doesn’t
matter terribly. I’ve just always been one for semantics.
So have I. You looked for a way to prove me “wrong”, though, and I just
looked at the words “integrated”, “design”, and “environment”, and saw
that I already had all I needed to satisfy all three requirements.
–
Chad P. [ CCD CopyWrite | http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
unix virus: If you’re using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.
Well I use jedit on windows and found it very handy. Its slight pain to
install the ruby plugin in it as its dependent on other a few plugins
but
once its done, this thing really rocks.
Based on this thread, I downloaded RadRails last night. After several
hours, I am extremely impressed. It has good folder and file views.
It has superb CVS and SVN integration (it was trivial to setup cvs over
ssh to my pair.com webhosting account). Unlike Scite, there’s coloring
for .rhtml files. It even has a SQL viewer, although not nearly as
powerful as MySQL-Front. It also does a decent job on an interface for
the generators and Webrick. If you use Windows, I recommend that you
give it a try.
On 12/23/05, Wilson B. [email protected] wrote:
!#{actually a comment}
2. Colors the body of the string with the usual ‘String’ color scheme.
Arachno handles it correctly
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