David M. wrote:
/ …
Advocacy could also simply mean someone who is passionate about
something, because it is good. Whereas marketing takes place all the
time for bad products; the salesman may not actually approve of the
product.
Yes, true. The advocate may be a saint or a sinner, while the salesman
is
going to try to sell you something, regardless of how he feels about it.
But the salesman wants you alive tomorrow, in the same way that a drug
pusher does.
It’s a conflict between Gandhi (or Osama Bin Laden) and Willy Loman. 
Rick DeNatale wrote:
Which answers the original question, because advocacy is what fanatics
do,
Actually not necessarily.
I agree that it is not necessarily the case. I was taking an extreme
position. I said that fanatics are advocates. I didn’t say that
advocates
are fanatics.
Advocacy is simply supporting an idea, person, or cause, usually
involving representing, speaking or pleading for that idea, person or
cause.
That can be true, but it doesn’t exhaust the possibilities.
This is why lawyers are called advocates.
That is a funny usage (one with which I am familiar), because advocates
are
often seriously emotionally committed to their causes, and lawyers
cannot
afford that luxury if they are to be effective.
Actually this is a bit
backwards since the word advocate comes from a term in Roman law for
one who called witnesses, and morphed into meaning lawyer and then the
more general term. And while some lawyers might be fanatics, many
aren’t and even those who are, some aren’t fanatics for the ideas,
persons or causes they advocate.
A lawyer who is a fanatic can’t serve his client’s interests, only his
own.
On 9/15/06, Francis C. [email protected] wrote:
is
about fueling the revenue stream. Marketing is about matching capabilities
to needs, at identified price points (and the price point may be zero).
“For many purposes, however, advocacy and marketing are roughly
equivalent.”
I’d say that for many purposes, advocacy and sales are roughly
equivalent,
since sales involves the task of persuading people.
marketing : adapting our strategy to the facts
advocacy : adapting the facts to our strategy
sales: ???[never sold a d… thing in my life]
just a thaught
Robert
–
Deux choses sont infinies : l’univers et la bêtise humaine ; en ce qui
concerne l’univers, je n’en ai pas acquis la certitude absolue.
On 9/15/06, Paul L. [email protected] wrote:
William C. wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Doesn’t advocacy == marketing ?
Marketing typically implies being paid.
Which answers the original question, because advocacy is what fanatics do,
Actually not necessarily.
Advocacy is simply supporting an idea, person, or cause, usually
involving representing, speaking or pleading for that idea, person or
cause.
An advocate is someone who practices advocacy.
This is why lawyers are called advocates. Actually this is a bit
backwards since the word advocate comes from a term in Roman law for
one who called witnesses, and morphed into meaning lawyer and then the
more general term. And while some lawyers might be fanatics, many
aren’t and even those who are, some aren’t fanatics for the ideas,
persons or causes they advocate.
–
Rick DeNatale
My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/
Francis C. wrote:
Do you have a job? If you do, and it wasn’t given to you by your mother,
than you have sold something in your life 
I have to disagree there. A night stock clerk at a grocery store never
sells anything. An intern programmer at a corporation never sells
anything. (Until he wants to be promoted, and then he’s got to sell an
idea, but I think that’s pushing the meaning a bit here.)
Anyhow, selling things and being a salesman are 2 different things. I
was a ‘consultative sales associate’ at a tech store once. My position
was basically salesman, but they didn’t call it that because they don’t
pay commission. I workd that job for a year and a half, and I now know
for sure that I am -not- a salesman. I can explain things all day long,
but when it comes to trying to complete the sale, I stink. I don’t do
add-ons, I don’t ‘close’, and I don’t actually care if the customer buys
-today-. (I care about the company, but I just happen to care about the
customers more.)
On 9/16/06, Robert D. [email protected] wrote:
marketing : adapting our strategy to the facts
advocacy : adapting the facts to our strategy
sales: ???[never sold a d… thing in my life]
Do you have a job? If you do, and it wasn’t given to you by your mother,
than you have sold something in your life 
On 9/17/06, William C. [email protected] wrote:
I have to disagree there. A night stock clerk at a grocery store never
sells anything. An intern programmer at a corporation never sells
anything. (Until he wants to be promoted, and then he’s got to sell an
idea, but I think that’s pushing the meaning a bit here.)
William, you walked right past the point. Unless you get a job through
nepotism, you have to sell yourself in order to get the job in the
first
place. (And even with nepotism, sales is involved because your
mother/father/uncle/political-patron has to convince his/her associate
to
give you the job.)
Sales is all about persuasion. So is advocacy. Being disinterested in
the
outcome sometimes helps, but not often. (And marketing is something else
entirely.) When I was very young, I worked with a very effective CEO who
once said to me that “Life is sales.” Of course he was trying to push my
buttons, and he did, but there is something to what he was saying.
On 9/16/06, Francis C. [email protected] wrote:
than you have sold something in your life
I am still wondering how I got it, your joke is hitting the truth, BTW
is
somewhere hiring out there?
–
Deux choses sont infinies : l’univers et la bêtise humaine ; en ce qui
concerne l’univers, je n’en ai pas acquis la certitude absolue.
Francis C. wrote:
William, you walked right past the point. Unless you get a job through
nepotism, you have to sell yourself in order to get the job in the
first
place. (And even with nepotism, sales is involved because your
mother/father/uncle/political-patron has to convince his/her associate
to
give you the job.)
I see your point, but I disagree. You are much more likely to get the
job if you ‘sell yourself’ in the interview, resume, etc… But if you
simply describe yourself with no attempt at spin, you can and will still
get a job. (I did, several times.)
As before, there’s quite a difference between selling a product and
simply explaining what it is. I suck at selling.
And oddly enough, my mother -did- get me my first job. She went ot the
local grocery store, got me and application, made me fill it out, and
took it back. Bam, I had a job. Yeah, I’ll agree there was some
selling there, but not on my part.
I’ll admit the point of sales and advocacy being related, though… You
are definitely trying to convince others to use the product in both
cases.
On 9/18/06, William C. [email protected] wrote:
I see your point, but I disagree. You are much more likely to get
the
job if you ‘sell yourself’ in the interview, resume, etc… But if you
simply describe yourself with no attempt at spin, you can and will still
get a job. (I did, several times.)
As before, there’s quite a difference between selling a product and
simply explaining what it is. I suck at selling.
William, I cretainly don’t mean to beat this to death, especially
since you may be one of the many technologists who, with some
justification, take a dim view of “sales” because in a lot of
companies the sales department can be the opponent of great
technology.
Every person is different, and there are many ways of persuading (or
selling, or advocating). Think about how you yourself react to sales
pitches. With a lot of people, especially technically oriented ones,
the best way to persuade is to present facts in a clear and unbiased
way, and to be honest about shortcomings and about the potential
advantages of competitors. I’d suggest that, based on your
description, that is the sales technique you have used to get your
jobs ;-). If you have a job, then you obviously suck less at selling
than you think.
There are some people who have the weird ability to sell things they
don’t necessarily believe in (trial lawyers and Bill C. come to
mind). But most people can be very effective advocates for something
they do believe in.
Francis C. wrote:
William, I cretainly don’t mean to beat this to death, especially
since you may be one of the many technologists who, with some
justification, take a dim view of “sales” because in a lot of
companies the sales department can be the opponent of great
technology.
I know, but we definitely see this differently.
If you have a job, then you obviously suck less at selling
than you think.
My current job, I almost didn’t get. It was a 2 part process. An
interview (with a resume) and an online test. The ‘other guy’ they were
looking at had me beat hands-down after the interview. They said they
would have hired him if that was the end of the process. But in the
online ‘test’ (which was skill and personality both) I blew him away.
So I didn’t really sell myself, did I? I simply completed a task to the
best of my ability and was honest on some personality questions. (I
‘failed’ one of these personality tests before with my honest answers.)
If this is ‘selling’ then you have to lump in all of daily life with
selling. At that point, selling loses its definition and means nothing
anymore.
Now, I’ll admit, when I ‘advocate’ things at home and work, I definitely
do like you said… I simply present the facts and then my opinion
based on those facts. (Which fits the definition of selling, yes.) And
there are quite a few people that respond very favorably to having
everything divided up like that. The customers at the tech store I
worked at were not those people. They all appreciated my answers and
knowledge, but they really just wanted someone to tell them what to buy.
On 9/18/06, William C. [email protected] wrote:
everything divided up like that. The customers at the tech store I
worked at were not those people. They all appreciated my answers and
knowledge, but they really just wanted someone to tell them what to buy.
Why can’t my customers be like that? LOL!
I guess a lot depends on your perspective. In my job (senior manager
in a tech company) I’m selling all day long, and not just customers.
Also industry analysts, my own team and my company’s owners as well.
And customers have to be persuaded to stay with us, not just make the
initial purchase. So I guess to some extent I do lump all of daily
life in with selling