An introduction, in about 50 lines of Ruby

On Aug 8, 3:29 pm, James B. [email protected] wrote:

Trans wrote:

So I’ll go out on a limb here, I respectfully request that an official
“ruby-pro” (or some such name) be created.

The Thoughtful Ruby mailing list has roughly zero traffic, so I’m
skeptical a new list would be helpful.

You are right. It can only work with official backing from matz and
community leaders.

Maybe people heard about Rails, tried it for a while, and decided either
to just hang on the rails lists, or switch (back) to Java or PHP or
something.

Or, more likely, people have formed multiple Ruby communities, and each
has found their own way (blogs, twitter, other lists, irc) to keep in
touch.

That’s true. But the mailing lists are central hubs. It’s important
that all these sub-communities remain in touch too.

T.

Trans wrote:

community leaders.
Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. “Community
leaders” is an illusion; if you think there’s a need for such a list, go
lead.

that all these sub-communities remain in touch too.

You can lead a horse to water, etc.

Ruby has gone tribal.


James B.

www.happycamperstudios.com - Wicked Cool Coding
www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff

On Aug 9, 11:20 am, “M. Edward (Ed) Borasky” [email protected]
wrote:

perception however, say ruby-tech.

Well … first of all, anybody is free to go to Google G. and create
and market any kind of list they want to, within certain terms of
service, of course. So if, for example, someone feels that there needs
to be a “ruby-beginners” or a “ruby-help” or a “ruby-professional”, they
can just go ahead and start it up and invite participants.

It is not possible to create a special general list. Official backing
is therefore absolutely necessary for it to work. Otherwise forget it.

Second, this list is essentially mirrored between the “ruby-talk”
mailing list, the Usenet comp.lang.ruby newsgroup and a Google Group. If
you split one, you more or less have to split all three of them. It
doesn’t seem to me to be worth the effort when anyone can do what I
described above.

There is also the ruby-forum mirror. I manage the ruby-talk Google
Group, btw. Splitting just means adding another list, it’s not a big
deal.

Also, I heard that Usenet was going down. I suspect that is a relative
thing. But is it true? Will it effect comp.lang.ruby?

So … those of you who feel strongly about establishing new lists, go
ahead and establish them, post the URLs here, and see who joins. :slight_smile: I
can pretty much guarantee that I won’t join one, since I’m on half a
dozen or so specialized Ruby lists, like ruby-core, rubinius-dev,
ruby-benchmark-suite and the Seattle and Portland Ruby brigade lists.
Chances of me missing an opportunity to learn or teach in this area are
rather small, I think. :wink:

I’m glad to see you are still on ruby-talk then. With all that
activity I would fear ruby-talk might fall off your list. That’s
basically my point about this --I think quite a few have. It would be
nice if their were a lower volume list that could centrally connect
them.

T.

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James B. [email protected] wrote:

Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. “Community
leaders” is an illusion; if you think there’s a need for such a list, go
lead.

That’s sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
behind something makes a HUGE difference. Being able to add the list
to the ruby-lang.org website is essential --and is controlled by matz
and friends.

That’s not to say an unofficial list is not be possible, it just would
be 100x harder to make effective --and for that, I doubt anyone really
has the time and energy for; and it certainly could not be me. I’m not
well liked by the community. In fact, the fact that I suggested it
pretty much guarantees that it will never happen. Ha ha! My devious
plan takes effect, Ruby will never have a beginner/expert list! …
(just kidding)

T.

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James B. [email protected] wrote:

You can lead a horse to water, etc.

Ruby has gone tribal.

Lol. Well then, bring in the British! :wink:

T.

On 10 Aug 2008, at 11:25, Trans wrote:

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James B. [email protected] wrote:

You can lead a horse to water, etc.

Ruby has gone tribal.

Lol. Well then, bring in the British! :wink:

We don’t do that sort of thing anymore :wink:

Ellie

Eleanor McHugh
Games With Brains
http://slides.games-with-brains.net

raise ArgumentError unless @reality.responds_to? :reason

On Sunday 10 August 2008 09:50 am, Victor R. wrote:

  1. Would a beginner question receives a beginner’s answer?
  2. How are we going to understand/learn new techniques and creativity
    which only the non-beginner posses? Please don’t be arrogant and tell me
    to
    learn it like you did! Although I know that this not your problem, some
    people, like I, at times needs to see examples.
  3. When would a beginner like I be permitted into the big boys
    (non-beginner) club?
  4. What’s wrong with being a beginner?

Without answering your specific questions, I (as a newbie, although
hopefully
I’m more than a newbie in some areas now), I would join both lists (the
newbie and the more advanced list). Read both. Hopefully some experts
will
read the newbie list and provide expert answers there, but there is a
lot of
room for beginners to answer questions that they’ve already learned the
answers to.

Ask your questions on whatever list you guess is most appropriate. If
you
start by asking on the newbie list, and either don’t get an answer or
you
think it’s missing something, re-ask it on the advanced list.

Randy K.

Aside: I belong (or have belonged) to newbie and advanced lists on
several
subjects–the ones I can think of atm are Mandriva and AbiWord. I think
it
works reasonably well. Traffic on the advanced lists is considerably
less
“noisy” than that on the newbie lists, which is, iiuc, one of the goals.
OTOH, newbies still have a place to ask their questions, including some
that
even they believe to be fairly simple.

On Saturday 09 August 2008 16:48:03 Trans wrote:

It is not possible to create a special general list. Official backing
deal.

rather small, I think. :wink:

I’m glad to see you are still on ruby-talk then. With all that
activity I would fear ruby-talk might fall off your list. That’s
basically my point about this --I think quite a few have. It would be
nice if their were a lower volume list that could centrally connect
them.

T.

What would be even nicer is if queries raised on the list got to be
answered
rather than so much energy going on chewing the fat about new lists!!

For example I raised a query on the subject of:
gem native extension installer failure on winxp pro 64 system
detailing aproblem on updating a gem native extension - there have so
far been
no replies and I cannot update the system. Now I am not suggesting I am
entitled to a reply but it is pretty galling to see this load of stuff
flying
past my screen when there are basic queries from people that do not get
any
replies.

My 2 pennorth

David

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 6:47 AM, Trans [email protected] wrote:

and friends.

This post is not address to anyone in particular but I wish to get
answers
from everyone, specially the non-beginners!

I normally don’t get involve on this type of “theological” discussions,
specially since I am no more than a mere and simple beginner, and I feel
that I can’t add anything to the big brainier discussion. That been
said, I
have a problem with a beginner list:

  1. Would a beginner question receives a beginner’s answer?
  2. How are we going to understand/learn new techniques and creativity
    which only the non-beginner posses? Please don’t be arrogant and tell
    me to
    learn it like you did! Although I know that this not your problem,
    some
    people, like I, at times needs to see examples.
  3. When would a beginner like I be permitted into the big boys
    (non-beginner) club?
  4. What’s wrong with being a beginner?

In the past I have learn interesting techniques from you, big boys,
non-beginners and I wish I could continue to count on that. I have
received
answers from some of the Ruby book authors and from some of the Ruby
packages developers, also from just fun loving Ruby hackers, and YES
from
beginners to.

If a person considers that a question is too simple and s(he) does not
wants
to waste time on it, skip it. If your arrogance does not let you see
your
feet, well good for you.
But please let us beginners feel comfortable and let Ruby grow with our
stupid questions!

Thanks

Victor

On Aug 10, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Trans wrote:

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James B. [email protected] wrote:

Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. “Community
leaders” is an illusion; if you think there’s a need for such a
list, go
lead.

That’s sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
behind something makes a HUGE difference.

I strongly disagree. I think Matz has plenty to worry about without
adding in a new list experiment we may want to try.

I agree with the other James, if you want to try it, try it.

James Edward G. II

On Aug 10, 11:24 am, James G. [email protected] wrote:

I strongly disagree. I think Matz has plenty to worry about without
adding in a new list experiment we may want to try.

I agree with the other James, if you want to try it, try it.

What’s up with the circular logic? What have I been saying? There is
no point to trying! It won’t work. So why do you keep telling me to
try it? How do I know it won’t work? Not the least of reasons is
because I have tried it!

An official new list can’t be official unless it is made official by
officials.

T.

On Aug 10, 2008, at 8:50 AM, Victor R. wrote:

to the ruby-lang.org website is essential --and is controlled by matz
plan takes effect, Ruby will never have a beginner/expert list! …
discussions,
specially since I am no more than a mere and simple beginner, and I
feel
that I can’t add anything to the big brainier discussion. That been
said, I
have a problem with a beginner list:

  1. Would a beginner question receives a beginner’s answer?

Having participated on the Perl Beginners list for years, I will
answer from that perspective.

The answer is: we sure hope so! If beginners learn some point and
then share that with others, the whole community wins. To me, this is
one of the big signs of healthy community growth.

Of course, experts would also be available to answer questions as
well. That’s another needed element.

  1. How are we going to understand/learn new techniques and
    creativity
    which only the non-beginner posses? Please don’t be arrogant and
    tell me to
    learn it like you did! Although I know that this not your problem,
    some
    people, like I, at times needs to see examples.

There are several members on the Perl Beginners list who are well
known experts in the community. If we couldn’t get any of our own
experts to join in such an effort, it would be a sign that our
community is quite broken, in my opinion. Many of us enjoy helping
others and would gladly join and help answer questions.

  1. When would a beginner like I be permitted into the big boys
    (non-beginner) club?

Whenever you decide you are ready, even if that’s on day one. As
other’s have suggested, tracking both may be a great idea.

  1. What’s wrong with being a beginner?

In the past I have learn interesting techniques from you, big boys,
non-beginners and I wish I could continue to count on that. I have
received
answers from some of the Ruby book authors and from some of the Ruby
packages developers, also from just fun loving Ruby hackers, and YES
from
beginners to.

There’s absolutely nothing at all wrong with being a beginner. If we
removed all beginners from the community it would eventually die, so I
think they are quite important.

The issue is that the Ruby community has exploded with growth lately.
With that, the signal to noise ratio of these lists has shifted some.
This has had some negative effects for everyone. First, many experts
have retreated to other places after being overwhelmed. As you’ve
already pointed out, that hurts the beginners ability to get good
answers. Also, many beginners are probably a little intimidated by
the new volume and sometimes less inviting tone. Giving them a more
welcoming place to pose questions and receive help could be a big win,
if more of them felt comfortable there.

If a person considers that a question is too simple and s(he) does
not wants
to waste time on it, skip it. If your arrogance does not let you see
your
feet, well good for you.
But please let us beginners feel comfortable and let Ruby grow with
our
stupid questions!

You are and always will be welcome here. We’re just discussing if
there are other ways we can add to that. Please don’t take offense.

James Edward G. II

Trans wrote:

An official new list can’t be official unless it is made official by
officials.

There are no officials.

Just people who do things.


James B.

www.happycamperstudios.com - Wicked Cool Coding
www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff

Trans wrote:

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James B. [email protected] wrote:

Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. “Community
leaders” is an illusion; if you think there’s a need for such a list, go
lead.

That’s sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
behind something makes a HUGE difference. Being able to add the list
to the ruby-lang.org website is essential --and is controlled by matz
and friends.

Well, FWIW, I can edit ruby-lang.org (as can quite a few others), but
point taken. I would not add a list to that site until it’s
demonstrated some traction, and that’s a chicken/egg problem.

But many things happen in the Ruby universe (lists, groups,
conferences, publications) that, as best I can tell, do not go through
any Approved By Matz process. Ruby would be dead were it not for
people just going off and doing stuff.

That’s not to say an unofficial list is not be possible, it just would
be 100x harder to make effective --and for that, I doubt anyone really
has the time and energy for; and it certainly could not be me. I’m not
well liked by the community. In fact, the fact that I suggested it
pretty much guarantees that it will never happen. Ha ha! My devious
plan takes effect, Ruby will never have a beginner/expert list! …
(just kidding)

You may be surprised. At the 2nd RubyConf there was some discussion on
some topic or another (I can’t recall) that involved the prospect of
first polling community needs or support. And the general reaction was,
that’s completely wrong: code talks, bullshit walks. Basically, if you
wait to get support or permission or approval you’ll die of old age.
Just do what you think needs doing, and see who picks up on it.

Not everyone hates you (I’m pretty sure) and the idea of a beginners
list comes up so regularly that it may get take off no matter who runs
it.

Even you. :slight_smile:


James B.

www.happycamperstudios.com - Wicked Cool Coding
www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Victor R. [email protected]
wrote:

I normally don’t get involve on this type of “theological” discussions,
specially since I am no more than a mere and simple beginner, and I feel
that I can’t add anything to the big brainier discussion. That been said, I
have a problem with a beginner list:

  1. Would a beginner question receives a beginner’s answer?

Historically, beginner questions have received a fair mix of beginner
and playfully advanced answers.

  1. How are we going to understand/learn new techniques and creativity
    which only the non-beginner posses? Please don’t be arrogant and tell me to
    learn it like you did! Although I know that this not your problem, some
    people, like I, at times needs to see examples.

See 1 - people have never shied away from providing ‘advanced’ and
creative answers to beginner questions

  1. When would a beginner like I be permitted into the big boys
    (non-beginner) club?

Whenever you like. I actually imagine people joining both lists. It’s
just nice to have a list where the beginner questions are the signal
and not lost in the general chatter.

  1. What’s wrong with being a beginner?

You killed our fathers. Prepare to die.

stupid questions!
I think you’ve got hold of the wrong end of the stick - the point of a
beginner’s list is to provide a place where beginner’s questions are
guaranteed not to get overlooked in the general chatter. There are
times when I’m busy and just mark-all-read on ruby-talk, but if I saw
a post in the beginner’s list that had received no replies, I might
take the moment or two to see if I could answer that at least.

martin

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 10:44 AM, James G. [email protected]
wrote:

Having participated on the Perl Beginners list for years, I will answer from
that perspective.

The answer is: we sure hope so! If beginners learn some point and then
share that with others, the whole community wins. To me, this is one of the
big signs of healthy community growth.

Lists of Ruby 101, and then Ruby 201, 301, 401, and, of course, Ruby
501 for the core developers.

Just kidding. Maybe it would be even less intimidating if you have
three groups (beginner, advanced, and core), but just refrain from
using the words “beginner” and “advanced”. Just a thought. Like the
“beginner” list would be called ruby-general. I’m not sure what word
to use for the “advanced” list; maybe just “advanced”.

The database groups removed some noise by creating
comp.databases.theory. People still post there about MySQL
idiosyncrasies to the dismay of other posters, so I imagine you’ll
still see simple Rails questions on a Ruby “advanced” group.

In any case, please try to avoid playing gestapo, Ruby Secret Society,
and what not :wink:

Todd

On Aug 10, 2:40 pm, James B. [email protected] wrote:

and friends.

some topic or another (I can’t recall) that involved the prospect of
first polling community needs or support. And the general reaction was,
that’s completely wrong: code talks, bullshit walks. Basically, if you
wait to get support or permission or approval you’ll die of old age.
Just do what you think needs doing, and see who picks up on it.

Not everyone hates you (I’m pretty sure) and the idea of a beginners
list comes up so regularly that it may get take off no matter who runs it.

Even you. :slight_smile:

Perhaps you are right. I not so sure I’m the guy for the job, but you
may be right that times have changed enough now that a “3rd party”
could get another list rolling. Hell, maybe both a help/beginner and
tech/expert list.

T.

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 6:09 PM, Gregory B.
[email protected] wrote:

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 5:11 PM, Todd B. [email protected] wrote:

In any case, please try to avoid playing gestapo, Ruby Secret Society,
and what not :wink:

You’re not a member? Must not be cool enough… :wink:

I was always picked last at kickball.

Todd

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 5:11 PM, Todd B. [email protected]
wrote:

In any case, please try to avoid playing gestapo, Ruby Secret Society,
and what not :wink:

You’re not a member? Must not be cool enough… :wink:

I do not think that a beginners list is a good idea. It smacks of a
crèche, a place where children are put to keep them from bothering the
grown-ups. Although I do not answer many questions and am probably
responsible for upsetting the boat more often than not I will help if I
can but I would not join a list that does nothing for me. Selfish I know
but I have no interest in reading a list that does not interest me. Also
people on the beginners list would miss out on all the conversation that
grown-ups were having.

I used to read Scientific American and Nature as a kid, it took two
years of reading Scientific American before I became literate enough to
learn things (five for Nature). But being over my head was a great
learning experience, you just don’t get that in a crèche.