# An active list, but not very useful **URL:** \ **Category:** Rails\ **Created:** [July 28, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/an-active-list-but-not-very-useful/192308 "2010-07-28T02:23:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/AppleII717)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/an-active-list-but-not-very-useful/192308/1 "2010-07-28T02:23:00Z")
As of this post time, there were 33 posts out of the last 120 that were not answered. I understand that there are a lot of RTFB type questions on this list, but this list that has basically been useless. Where do you go to find help on something other than a RTFB type question? Steve A. ---
**Author:** ![AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/AppleII717)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/an-active-list-but-not-very-useful/192308/2 "2010-07-28T02:59:52Z")
Steve, The general mailing list is pretty overwhelming to those that want to spend a bit of their time trying to help the freshman class of Rails. Probably almost as overwhelming as rails is to the people new to the framework. Personally, I’m able to make better use of my time by helping contribute on either the irc channel (#rubyonrails on [irc.freenode.net](http://irc.freenode.net)) or to my local ruby users group mailing list/ irc channel. If you live in/near a large city, chances are there is a pretty decent ruby group there. A really good option for getting excellent tutelage would be to offer a post meeting beer or two for for some help before a meeting or during a ‘hack night’. The lists/irc channels tend to be less active so it’s a bit easier to find a question that’s popped up a few hours ago. -Patrick R. ---
**Author:** ![AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/AppleII717)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/an-active-list-but-not-very-useful/192308/3 "2010-07-28T04:00:44Z")
Thank for the reply! I have to admit that I don’t send a lot of time on this list - just when I am stumped on something that I’ve spent way to much time trying to figure out. Half the time I’ll just post a question, hoping that, even if I don’t get a reply, it will drive me into figuring it out for myself. Unfortunately I moved to a city (Gadsden Alabama) where Ruby/Rails is probably only known by a few and I’m probably in the top 5! I may try the irc chat. When I do post something, I’ll hang out for a while and have even replied to a few questions, but you are right - it is a little overwhelming. Rails is overwhelming - so many library calls with so many options, it is just plain hard to learn OPC (other people’s code). I may live too much on the edge in that I’m trying to get into Rails 3. Playing with rails for about 5 years (playing means I’ve written and deployed stuff which I only partially understand), Rails 3 almost makes sense. I feel Rails would have never gone anywhere without Ryan B. RailsCasts, but he is only one person trying to teach the world and he’ll use something that you had no idea it existed. The problem is when you try to implement that new found thing in your world, you’ll still find missing knowledge. The handle I used “AppleII717” stands for - I have Apple II serial # 717 sitting around somewhere. I spent many years being the knowledge base for a lot of people at that time - but then you get overwhelmed. I was just looking for that knowledge base for Rails. Steve A. On Jul 27, 7:58 pm, Patrick R. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) ---
**Author:** ![AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/AppleII717)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 11:21am UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/an-active-list-but-not-very-useful/192308/4 "2010-07-28T11:21:30Z")
Guys, A very interesting post since I was thinking along exactly the same lines. It is apparent that there is now a very different type of poster within even the last three months who often have some very basic questions, most of which are answered when you RTFB. I notice posts are increasingly: - about not being able to read error messages - expecting the documentation to be very clear (I often find it difficult to navigate around various ReadMe’s and the RDOC can be quite cumbersome) - posts are now coming from developers and not programmers, the former copy and paste software together and the latter tend to understand the principles of the language and framework and write code. - is there plugin for … - how do you deploy … without any idea about Capistrano - CSS and HTML questions (BTW go and check out [YAML CSS Framework — for truly flexible, accessible and responsive websites](http://www.yaml.de/en/)) As the old addage goes, adopt when software gets to version 3! It looks to me that Rails has gone mainstream and this brings with it a whole different set of support requirements for the users in terms of books, tutorials (e.g. the excellent Railscasts), formal training courses, better online documentation, commercial support contracts and so on. Is it here that the commercial “competitors” win out in terms of certification programmes, support, training delivery, adoption by mainstream Independent Software Vendors (ISVs) and Service Providers? Could this be the next challenge for the Rails community to step up to? Specifically, the resources need to help the developer community are very different from the early adopter programmers. For me personally, the list does provide the occasional insight and I have been helped many times and try to reciprocate when possible. However, at present I tend to read articles and blog posts on interesting Rails and associated topics from [http://railsposts.com](http://railsposts.com) and other sites. I am not sure a mailing list really works well for “design principles and interesting insights and developments”. For example I am looking for articles and case studies on the following: - Integrating Rails/Ruby with a rules engine (for pricing or workflow) without having to go the Jruby, JBoss rules route. - What really is the big deal with REST (Yes I have RTFB). As far as I can work out it is all about caching content and maintaining a stable API but I cannot really see the Wow factor. - Rails for mobile devices - Some reasons why I would need to understand Rack. It really is an exciting time for both Ruby and Rails. Mainstream adoption moves the goalposts for the community and presents a new challenge. I am not sure whether this is being discussed and planned somewhere in the community. I hope it is. O. ---
**Author:** ![AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/AppleII717)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/an-active-list-but-not-very-useful/192308/5 "2010-07-28T14:35:49Z")
AppleII717 wrote: > Thank for the reply! > > I have to admit that I don’t send a lot of time on this list Then where the hell do you get off complaining about the utility of the list? Please get to know the community before you complain about it. […] > When I do post something, I’ll hang out for a while and have even > replied to a few questions, but you are right - it is a little > overwhelming. > > Rails is overwhelming - so many library calls with so many options, It can be. Read the guides and the docs again. It is possible to learn it even without external help – I know because that’s what I did. It wasn’t exactly easy, though. > it > is just plain hard to learn OPC (other people’s code). That’s true in any language. Well-written Ruby is actually easier to deal with in that regard than most other languages I’m familiar with. > I may live too > much on the edge in that I’m trying to get into Rails 3. Perhaps. > Playing with > rails for about 5 years (playing means I’ve written and deployed stuff > which I only partially understand), That’s a bad thing right there. Why would you deploy an application that you didn’t understand? What is it that you don’t understand? > Rails 3 almost makes sense. I > feel Rails would have never gone anywhere without Ryan B. > RailsCasts, but he is only one person trying to teach the world and > he’ll use something that you had no idea it existed. Sometimes, yes. > The problem is > when you try to implement that new found thing in your world, you’ll > still find missing knowledge. Ryan (or anyone else here, I think) is not going to spoon-feed you. It is up to you to take the hints given to you and get the missing knowledge. If you’re stuck, please ask questions, but show that you’ve taken some initiative before doing so. > The handle I used “AppleII717” stands for - I have Apple II serial # > 717 sitting around somewhere. Neat! > I spent many years being the knowledge > base for a lot of people at that time - but then you get overwhelmed. > I was just looking for that knowledge base for Rails. I think you’ve found it – but you may not be using it correctly. Or people may not know how to answer your questions. If I recall correctly, some of them are on fairly sophisticated, specialized topics that no one may know the answer to! > Steve A. > > On Jul 27, 7:58�pm, Patrick R. [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) Best, – Marnen Laibow-Koser [http://www.marnen.org](http://www.marnen.org) removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid Sent from my iPhone ---
**Author:** ![AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/AppleII717)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/an-active-list-but-not-very-useful/192308/6 "2010-07-28T16:22:28Z")
On Jul 28, 7:35 am, Marnen Laibow-Koser [removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid](mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid) wrote: > AppleII717 wrote: > > > Thank for the reply! > > > I have to admit that I don’t send a lot of time on this list > > Then where the hell do you get off complaining about the utility of the > list? Please get to know the community before you complain about it. I guess because I knew I’d get a response like this! - but you weren’t to harsh and provided me some insights. Rails is also a “hobby” for me. I’ve retired and only experiment with Rails when I get bored of doing nothing or tired of working on my “money pit”. […] > > Rails is overwhelming - so many library calls with so many options, > > It can be. Read the guides and the docs again. It is possible to learn > it even without external help – I know because that’s what I did. It > wasn’t exactly easy, though. > > > it is just plain hard to learn OPC (other people’s code). > > That’s true in any language. Well-written Ruby is actually easier to > deal with in that regard than most other languages I’m familiar with. I think you hit on the major weakness and greatness of Rails - Ruby. Great in that it is an amazing language. Weak in that, with scaffolding and generators, I feel most users, including me, are weak on Ruby. Yea, I can do all the basics (conditions, loops, etc) but I think a large segment of those trying to use this list have never written a Module with Classes etc. > > I may live too > > much on the edge in that I’m trying to get into Rails 3. > > Perhaps. > > Playing with > > rails for about 5 years (playing means I’ve written and deployed stuff > > which I only partially understand), > > That’s a bad thing right there. Why would you deploy an application > that you didn’t understand? What is it that you don’t understand? Because Rails did most of the work and it worked! Without going into a lot of history, deployed in my case was a helper application that managed golf scores for a small golf group that I’m a member of. It was almost an intranet on the internet, it has no use to anyone outside that group. I’ve written that application in about 4 different languages and the Rails 1.x version has been out there for about 3 years. Unfortunately it was PHP code converted and wrapped in a Rails MVC. I did have plans of making the application available to other groups, but never got there. Over the last month or so, I rewrote/re- factored it into Rails3 (dePHPed!). Still not ready for the world [http://maxwell.golfgaggle.com](http://maxwell.golfgaggle.com), but I used a number of Gems etc that I never used before. Probably the reason for the flurry of posts and my quest to find information on Rails3 - which I think most would agree, is limited at this time. […] > I think you’ve found it – but you may not be using it correctly. Or > people may not know how to answer your questions. If I recall > correctly, some of them are on fairly sophisticated, specialized topics > that no one may know the answer to! Thanks for the reply. You are right in that I need to RTFB a little more. I even dug out the “Poignant Guide to Ruby” and will try to improve my understanding. Steve A. ---
**Author:** ![AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/AppleII717)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/an-active-list-but-not-very-useful/192308/7 "2010-07-28T18:32:19Z")
AppleII717 wrote: > I think you hit on the major weakness and greatness of Rails - Ruby. > > Great in that it is an amazing language. > > Weak in that, with scaffolding and generators, I feel most users, > including me, are weak on Ruby. Yea, I can do all the basics > (conditions, loops, etc) but I think a large segment of those trying > to use this list have never written a Module with Classes etc. Agreed (mostly). I constantly counsel friends picking up RoR to start small, and use the old ruby script/generate scaffold person first\_name:string last\_name:string rake db:migrate then actually go look at all the generated code to understand HOW it works - migrations, controllers, views, models, routes. Recently, I’ve seen a lot of posts where it feels like attempted running in rails when the person doesn’t seem to have tied their shoes yet… (“I’ve never looked at routes.rb, but I want my sexy routes to look like this, tell me how” or “I typed in exactly what you said and it didn’t work”) And a simple “I wanna do X. Please feed me code” doesn’t elicit much of a response from me other than to point them to a simple Google search they should have done BEFORE asking for assistance. Even if the answer is on the first linked page, I want them to go perform a bit of due diligence themselves. And oftentimes, people are simply working in an area I don’t know much about, so I won’t reply. I don’t work on a Mac, so that whole family of configuration questions is out, haven’t used Postgres or SQLite, so that eliminates another batch. And I’m sure the same applies to lots of other folks. When you look at it, there are far more questioners than answerers, this is volunteered time, and we are in the middle of vacation season. Just the nature of the beast. > Thanks for the reply. You are right in that I need to RTFB a little > more. I even dug out the �Poignant Guide to Ruby� and will try to > improve my understanding. Always good to Read The Fine Manual… 🙂 Sometimes I check the forum just to read posts and replies, which can be equally enlightening. ---
**Author:** ![AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@AppleII717](https://www.ruby-forum.com/u/AppleII717)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://www.ruby-forum.com/t/an-active-list-but-not-very-useful/192308/8 "2010-07-28T19:06:12Z")
AppleII717 wrote: […] > I think you hit on the major weakness and greatness of Rails - Ruby. And I think you’ve just hit on your problem. There is no such thing as “Rails - Ruby”. Rails is built on top of Ruby, but you have to know both the basic language and the framework in order to use the combination effectively. > Great in that it is an amazing language. Yup. > Weak in that, with scaffolding and generators, I feel most users, > including me, are weak on Ruby. I notice that a lot too – a lot of people seem to hear about teh shiny Railz magik, and try to work with Rails without having a good idea of Ruby. That is a recipe for failure: you can’t do nontrivial work in Rails without a basic understanding of the Ruby language. > Yea, I can do all the basics > (conditions, loops, etc) but I think a large segment of those trying > to use this list have never written a Module with Classes etc. Rails was my introduction to Ruby development, so I hadn’t either. But I made sure I understood how the language basically worked before trying to understand the framework. […] > > That’s a bad thing right there. �Why would you deploy an application > > that you didn’t understand? �What is it that you don’t understand? > > Because Rails did most of the work and it worked! Without going into a > lot of history, deployed in my case was a helper application that > managed golf scores for a small golf group that I’m a member of. It > was almost an intranet on the internet, it has no use to anyone > outside that group. I’ve written that application in about 4 different > languages and the Rails 1.x version has been out there for about 3 > years. Unfortunately it was PHP code converted and wrapped in a Rails > MVC. Yuuuuuck (at least potentially). I learned Rails by porting a PHP (Fusebox MVC) application, but I deliberately didn’t port any of the PHP code: I copied the functionality, but did so by completely rewriting from scratch. I didn’t want to write PHP in Ruby or Fusebox in Rails. > I did have plans of making the application available to other > groups, but never got there. Over the last month or so, I rewrote/re- > factored it into Rails3 (dePHPed!). Still not ready for the world > [http://maxwell.golfgaggle.com](http://maxwell.golfgaggle.com), but I used a number of Gems etc that > I never used before. Probably the reason for the flurry of posts and > my quest to find information on Rails3 - which I think most would > agree, is limited at this time. Yes. I think it’s risky to base an application on a prerelease version of the framework. […] > Thanks for the reply. You’re welcome! > You are right in that I need to RTFB a little > more. I even dug out the �Poignant Guide to Ruby� and will try to > improve my understanding. I’ve found the Pickaxe Book far more useful than the Poignant Guide. YMMV. > Steve A. ## Best, Marnen Laibow-Koser [http://www.marnen.org](http://www.marnen.org) removed\_email\_address@domain.invalid