Forum: Ruby Erlang book is in beta...

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Dave T. (Guest)
on 2007-03-02 21:19
(Received via mailing list)
I love Ruby--I've done all my serious (and most of my not-so-serious)
work in Ruby since 2000.

But that doesn't mean that I think it's the only solution--the
universal language. There are always going to be areas where other
tools excel.

One of those areas is concurrent programming. As the world moves to
multi-core processors, and as we start to write applications
distributed across intra- and internets, we need to find better ways
to exploit all this extra power. If you've ever tried to write
concurrent programs in Java, or even Ruby, you know the challenges.

Erlang is designed from the ground up to help programmers create
highly concurrently (read thousands or processes), highly reliable
(read 99.99999% uptime) applications. It's a real world language--it
is used to write telephone switches, banking applications, trading
systems...you name it.

I like it for that reason. I also like it because it's different--
very different. It makes me think about problems in a totally
different way.

We were lucky to get Joe Armstrong, one of the inventors of Erlang,
to write our latest beta book, Programming Erlang.

The book isn't being officially announced until next week, but I
thought the Ruby community might appreciate an early look.

      http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/jaerlang/



Cheers


Dave
James B. (Guest)
on 2007-03-02 22:01
(Received via mailing list)
Dave T. wrote:
> Java, or even Ruby, you know the challenges.
> We were lucky to get Joe Armstrong, one of the inventors of Erlang, to
> write our latest beta book, Programming Erlang.
>


Sweet.  Any plans for a Haskell book?


--
James B.

"The truth often suffers more by the heat of its defenders
than by the arguments of its opponents."
   - William Penn.
Giles B. (Guest)
on 2007-03-02 22:04
(Received via mailing list)
> Sweet.  Any plans for a Haskell book?

+1
Dave T. (Guest)
on 2007-03-02 22:29
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 2, 2007, at 2:00 PM, James B. wrote:

>
> Sweet.  Any plans for a Haskell book?


I'd love to do one.

It's a question of finding the right author.
Robert F. (Guest)
on 2007-03-02 22:44
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/2/07, Dave T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 2, 2007, at 2:00 PM, James B. wrote:
>
> >
> > Sweet.  Any plans for a Haskell book?


And any plans for an IO book? It also has interesting answers/solutions
relevant to the current uni- to multi-core transition... iolanguage.com

/Robert F.
Bob H. (Guest)
on 2007-03-02 22:46
(Received via mailing list)
On 2-Mar-07, at 2:18 PM, Dave T. wrote:

> We were lucky to get Joe Armstrong, one of the inventors of Erlang,
> to write our latest beta book, Programming Erlang.

Oh this is *very* cool!

----
Bob H.                  -- blogs at <http://www.recursive.ca/
hutch/>
Recursive Design Inc.          -- <http://www.recursive.ca/>
Raconteur                      -- <http://www.raconteur.info/>
xampl for Ruby                 -- <http://rubyforge.org/projects/xampl/>
Hemant K. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 00:32
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, Bob H. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> On 2-Mar-07, at 2:18 PM, Dave T. wrote:
>
> > We were lucky to get Joe Armstrong, one of the inventors of Erlang,
> > to write our latest beta book, Programming Erlang.
>
> Oh this is *very* cool!
>

Awesome.
Brian M. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 01:02
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/2/07, Robert F. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> relevant to the current uni- to multi-core transition... iolanguage.com
>
> /Robert F.

I'd say it would be a bit soon for an Io book since I still pull down
daily changes from the main darcs repository. ;-) Having said that, I
highly recommend that people check it out... it _really_ brings the
meaning of completely dynamic into scope.

Though I've gone through other Haskell books, it would be great to see
how the Pragmatics would present the language. So +1 on that from me
as well.

Brian.
Farrel L. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 01:10
(Received via mailing list)
On 02/03/07, Dave T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> to exploit all this extra power. If you've ever tried to write
> different way.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Dave
>

Awesome. I've been meaning to learn Erlang for a while now. I'm
definitely buying this, especially with Joe Armstrong involved.

Farrel
Robert F. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 02:56
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, Brian M. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> On 3/2/07, Robert F. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> > And any plans for an IO book? It also has interesting answers/solutions
> > relevant to the current uni- to multi-core transition... iolanguage.com
>
> I'd say it would be a bit soon for an Io book since I still pull down
> daily changes from the main darcs repository. ;-)


Yes, but it's a bright new world, with the publishing world looking more
and
more like the open-source software world, with versioning, beta books
and
frequent releases... ;)

/Robert
Hans F. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 03:25
(Received via mailing list)
Excellent! It just so happens I am gearing up to learn Erlang. What
timing! Maybe people on this list really are clairvoyant...

Hans
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 06:48
(Received via mailing list)
Dave T. wrote:
> to exploit all this extra power. If you've ever tried to write
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
Thank you!! This is *exactly* what I've been waiting for!!

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
Kevin J. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 07:01
(Received via mailing list)
> > to exploit all this extra power. If you've ever tried to write
> >
> > We were lucky to get Joe Armstrong, one of the inventors of Erlang, to
> > write our latest beta book, Programming Erlang.
> >
> > The book isn't being officially announced until next week, but I
> > thought the Ruby community might appreciate an early look.
> >
> >      http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/jaerlang/

my +1 also - I've worked through the Erlang tutorials but haven't
quite grasped it properly - so thanks for the timely 'release'

Kev
Dave T. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 08:28
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 2, 2007, at 6:56 PM, Robert F. wrote:

> more and
> more like the open-source software world, with versioning, beta
> books and
> frequent releases... ;)

I'd love to see proposals on IO, Haskell, and OCaml.


Dave
Dave T. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 08:30
(Received via mailing list)
On any other language list, if I announced a book on a different
language, I'd get flamed until crisp.

Here, all you folks say is "cool".

It's a nice place to call home.


Dave
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 08:52
(Received via mailing list)
Dave T. wrote:
>
>
Well ... try announcing a Ruby book on the Erlang list first. :)

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
_why (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 09:23
(Received via mailing list)
On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 03:29:18PM +0900, Dave T. wrote:
> On any other language list, if I announced a book on a different
> language, I'd get flamed until crisp.

You should do one on VBScript.  I'd like to see what that reaction
would be like.  For my own purposes.

_why
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 09:31
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, _why <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 03:29:18PM +0900, Dave T. wrote:
> > On any other language list, if I announced a book on a different
> > language, I'd get flamed until crisp.
>
> You should do one on VBScript.  I'd like to see what that reaction
> would be like.  For my own purposes.
Do not fear on *this list* nobody knows what VBScript is.

And just in case, for those who do not know me ;). It's a joke.

Robert
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 10:53
(Received via mailing list)
On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 03:27:21PM +0900, Dave T. wrote:
> >
> >
> >Yes, but it's a bright new world, with the publishing world looking
> >more and
> >more like the open-source software world, with versioning, beta
> >books and
> >frequent releases... ;)
>
> I'd love to see proposals on IO, Haskell, and OCaml.

. . . especially if the OCaml book comes with an OCaml compiler that is
released under a BSD-like license.
Pat M. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 11:06
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/2/07, Dave T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
>

I agree that the Ruby community rocks, but a big reason for the warm
response is because of the reputation you guys have created for
yourselves.  Your flagship book has Java examples throughout and we
all love it.  You'll always have the benefit of the doubt.

Pat
Luciano R. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 15:21
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, Dave T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> On any other language list, if I announced a book on a different
> language, I'd get flamed until crisp.
>
> Here, all you folks say is "cool".
>
> It's a nice place to call home.

Comming from the Python community, I don't think pythonistas are more
intolerant than rubyists, although I've heard this myth while talking
to people at the last RubyConf. On the other hand, if you had
announced a Python book, perhaps your response here would not be
positive.

One of the things that has always bothered me in the Ruby community is
how much Python bashing goes on, most of it needless and a lot of it
pointless.

Then again, you *are* Dave T., and everyone here are your fans
(including myself), so you'll always get special treatment.

Cheers,

Luciano
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 15:37
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, Luciano R. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> intolerant than rubyists, although I've heard this myth while talking
> to people at the last RubyConf. On the other hand, if you had
> announced a Python book, perhaps your response here would not be
> positive.
>
> One of the things that has always bothered me in the Ruby community is
> how much Python bashing goes on, most of it needless and a lot of it
> pointless.

Well I did not really notice but it is sad news that you feel like it,
maybe we should be a little more expressive about smileys sometimes.

You are making a strong point, Python's success is something to be
jealous of course ;), but there simply is *no* reason to bash anybody
unless it is /bin/bash of course.

Personally I have very mixed feelings about Python, I love its power
and I hate its syntax and complexity.

But both statements are probably a compliment to the language and
loving the power and hating the complexity is somehow stupid of
course.

Hopefully you will keep stopping by.
>
> Then again, you *are* Dave T., and everyone here are your fans
> (including myself), so you'll always get special treatment.
>

Who is this Dave T. guy?  No I am not kidding, probably I am just
very ignorant, but not for very much longer...

> Cheers,
>
> Luciano
>
>
Ciao ( no make that ate à prossima)
Robert
James B. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 16:15
(Received via mailing list)
Dave T. wrote:
>
> On any other language list, if I announced a book on a different
> language, I'd get flamed until crisp.
>
> Here, all you folks say is "cool".

You haven't announced that PHP book yet.  Followed by Agile Web
Programming with Django.

:)

>
> It's a nice place to call home.

Quite true.



--
James B.

"Hackers will be expelled"
  -  The Breakfast Club (1985)
gga (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 16:21
(Received via mailing list)
Dave T. ha escrito:
>
> One of those areas is concurrent programming. As the world moves to
> multi-core processors, and as we start to write applications
> distributed across intra- and internets, we need to find better ways
> to exploit all this extra power. If you've ever tried to write
> concurrent programs in Java, or even Ruby, you know the challenges.
>

So, I have to ask.  There's already some good and fast multithreading
languages out there (Lua, for example), and concurrency in the form of
light threads is pretty much available in most popular languages
(python, ruby, lua, java, etc).  TCL and Lua's interpreter state,
allows easily doing somewhat akin to Erlang's processes, if I
understand correctly.  So, what is it that makes Erlang special in
this aspect?
My current (perhaps wrong) impression is this:  Erlang's processes are
more akin to TCL's or Lua's interpreter state, so each thread does not
share any info with another by default.  To implement sharing data
around, Erlang uses a built-in queue mechanism among its processes
which is very simple and elegant and similar to ruby's case statement
(which is good and smart -- no need to create semaphores or yields
everywhere like you need with other languages), but I'm not quite sure
if that could be end up being somewhat limiting also if you need to
share a lot of data across.  I'm also not clear how easy (or
possible?) it is to interface Erlang with C or C++, for example.

>
> I like it for that reason. I also like it because it's different--
> very different. It makes me think about problems in a totally
> different way.
>

That it is.  It is 100% functional programming pretty much, albeit its
syntax is much more accessible than something like Ocalm or Haskell
(at least to me).

P.S. For what it is worth, in the industry I work on, we have already
been briefly exposed to Erlang, thanks to the 3d package wings3d.  The
software, when it showed up, was pretty revolutionary (other than
Mirai --written partly in lisp-- nobody had tried to do a 3d tool with
a scripting language and succeeded), but it also showed (to me) some
flaws with Erlang (slow execution, hard for people to pick it up,
problematic to implement and replace complex data structures and some
problems with backwards compatibility -- my ubuntu box currently
segfaults with wings3d).  So, I'll admit I already have some bias
against the language, but maybe I have missed some of its beauty and
wings3d might not be the best example of Erlang code out there.
James B. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 16:31
(Received via mailing list)
Luciano R. wrote:
> intolerant than rubyists, although I've heard this myth while talking
> to people at the last RubyConf. On the other hand, if you had
> announced a Python book, perhaps your response here would not be
> positive.
>
> One of the things that has always bothered me in the Ruby community is
> how much Python bashing goes on, most of it needless and a lot of it
> pointless.

Interesting.  My view is that Python questions/comparisons on ruby-talk
are mostly greeted with "Python is great; try both Ruby and Python and
pick what makes you happy."

I've seen complaints on this list about various Python features; I hope
expressing displeasure doesn't count as "bashing."

Also, one has to have an appropriate understanding  of the scope of "the
Ruby community".  It's much, much more than a handful of vocal people,
either on this list or out on various bogs and discussion boards.

(BTW, some folks in my neck of the woods tried to start up a Django user
group.  2 of the 4 attendees at the first meeting were Rubyists. We're
pretty open-minded about tech, and I think the enthusiasm here for
Erlang, Haskell, Io, etc. is some indication.)

>
> Then again, you *are* Dave T., and everyone here are your fans
> (including myself), so you'll always get special treatment.

I don't think people shy away from criticizing Dave if they believe it's
warranted.  It's more that most people here treat most other people here
with respect.   And Dave and Prag Press have produce admirable work.

MINASWAN.  (Matz is nice and so we are nice.)

So, as long as Matz stays nice ...

:)

--
James B.

"Hackers will be expelled"
  -  The Breakfast Club (1985)
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 16:43
(Received via mailing list)
> Who is this Dave T. guy?  No I am not kidding, probably I am just
> very ignorant, but not for very much longer...

Nobody's going to tell me ;), boy I had to google all by myself


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_A._Thomas_%28so...

Oh yes *that* Dave T., funny thing
I read your book (well one of your books) 3 times at least and I do
not know your name, that is not very nice...

Apologies
Robert
Avdi G. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 16:53
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, Robert D. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> > Who is this Dave T. guy?  No I am not kidding, probably I am just
> > very ignorant, but not for very much longer...
>
> Nobody's going to tell me ;), boy I had to google all by myself
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_A._Thomas_%28so...
>
> Oh yes *that* Dave T., funny thing

No, not *that* Dave T..  Note that that page is about the guy who
founded Object Technology International, not the guy who co-wrote The
Pragmatic Programmer and the Pickaxe.

Perhaps you meant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Thomas_%28programmer%29
Luciano R. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 17:00
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, James B. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> MINASWAN.  (Matz is nice and so we are nice.)

Yes, Matz is very nice, it was wonderful to meet him. So are most
everyone in the Ruby and Python communities.

It's really wonderful how BBSs and then the Internet alowed us to form
these international communities of interest moved by solidarity and
sharing.

Cheers,

Luciano
Dean W. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 17:08
(Received via mailing list)
...
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_A._Thomas_%28so...
> >
> > Oh yes *that* Dave T., funny thing
>
> No, not *that* Dave T..  Note that that page is about the guy who
> founded Object Technology International, not the guy who co-wrote The
> Pragmatic Programmer and the Pickaxe.
>
> Perhaps you meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Thomas_%28programmer%29

If confused, try the David Thomas disambiguation page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Thomas

Ya gotta love Wikipedia!  ;)
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 17:30
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, Avdi G. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> No, not *that* Dave T..  Note that that page is about the guy who
> founded Object Technology International, not the guy who co-wrote The
> Pragmatic Programmer and the Pickaxe.
>
> Perhaps you meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Thomas_%28programmer%29

Oh boy, thanx for putting that right.
Robert
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 17:31
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, Dean W. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> > Perhaps you meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Thomas_%28programmer%29
>
> If confused, try the David Thomas disambiguation page:
Look at my sig :)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Thomas
>
> Ya gotta love Wikipedia!  ;)
It seems though that there are people smart enough to use it, somewhere,
far away from YHS,
no appologies for the stupid mistake.
R
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 19:35
(Received via mailing list)
James B. wrote:
> I've seen complaints on this list about various Python features; I
> hope expressing displeasure doesn't count as "bashing."
Yes ... just because significant whitespace is the tool of Satan doesn't
mean Python is unusable ... I'm sure there are *some* programmers
willing to put their souls at risk and use Python. :)

> (BTW, some folks in my neck of the woods tried to start up a Django
> user group.  2 of the 4 attendees at the first meeting were Rubyists.
> We're pretty open-minded about tech, and I think the enthusiasm here
> for Erlang, Haskell, Io, etc. is some indication.)
Part of that enthusiasm stems from

a. Erlang seems to have "done concurrency right". Ruby is close, so
Rubyists want to pick up some ... er ... pointers. :)
b. Those of us who believe that Functional Programming is the One True
Way are naturally enthusiastic about functional languages achieving
"commercial" success. Too bad it's not Lisp or Scheme, but hey, you
can't have *everything*. :)
> I don't think people shy away from criticizing Dave if they believe
> it's warranted.  It's more that most people here treat most other
> people here with respect.   And Dave and Prag Press have produce
> admirable work.
I don't think Dave has ever said anything I disagree with, but then I've
only been hanging out here for a year or so. One thing he *has* said
repeatedly is that a programmer should learn a new language every year,
and his timing was perfect -- I picked Erlang and he showed up a couple
weeks later with an Erlang book. Just out of curiosity, Dave, are you
looking for someone to write a queuing theory book? :)
>
> MINASWAN.  (Matz is nice and so we are nice.)
>
> So, as long as Matz stays nice ...
>
> :)
Seriously, though, someone ought to do a sociological study of
"benevolent dictators" like Matz, DHH, Guido and Linus (Torvalds) and
the communities that have formed around them.


--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 19:59
(Received via mailing list)
gga wrote:
> around, Erlang uses a built-in queue mechanism among its processes
> which is very simple and elegant and similar to ruby's case statement
> (which is good and smart -- no need to create semaphores or yields
> everywhere like you need with other languages), but I'm not quite sure
> if that could be end up being somewhat limiting also if you need to
> share a lot of data across.  I'm also not clear how easy (or
> possible?) it is to interface Erlang with C or C++, for example.
>
1. What makes Erlang special is that, unlike Python, Ruby and Lua, there
are a number of *major* industrial-strength commercial projects
implemented in Erlang -- integrated hardware/software projects to boot.
Concurrency is integral to the language and the core reasons these
applications work. Now there *are* major industrial strength
applications written in Java, and I think you can make the same claim
for Perl and PHP, but whether they *depend* on concurrency for their
robustness, as Erlang applications typically do, is quite another story.
Of the listed languages, I think only Erlang and Java can seriously be
considered as *replacements" for C and C++ for building robust,
large-scale concurrency-dependent applications.

2. Yes, there is a mechanism for interfacing Erlang to C/C++. Most
likely it's platform-dependent, and I don't know enough about Erlang yet
to know how it works. That's why I bought the book. :)
> wings3d might not be the best example of Erlang code out there.
>
Well, in *my* industry there's absolutely nothing written in Erlang or
Ruby or Lua or Java or Lisp or Java. We pretty much stick with C and
Perl, with a bit of C++ and Visual Basic, and of course Python and Bash
in the Linux world. This is why I spend my own time learning stuff like
Ruby, Gentoo Linux, Erlang and wings3d. :)

I can't help you with the segfaults on Ubuntu, but I will install Erlang
and wings on my Gentoo box -- they're in Portage -- and if the demos
segfault, I'll file bugs on Gentoo :). Helluva hobby, ain't it? :)
>
>
>


--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-03-03 20:11
(Received via mailing list)
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> robust, large-scale concurrency-dependent applications.
P.S.: Last September, there was a Functional Languages conference here
in Portland. I attended two all-day side sessions, one on Erlang and one
on Scheme. The Erlang session overflowed the small room Portland State
University had allocated for it, and something like a third of the
attendees were from a team at Amazon.Com that is doing a project in
Erlang.

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 02:04
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> Seriously, though, someone ought to do a sociological study of
> "benevolent dictators" like Matz, DHH, Guido and Linus (Torvalds) and
> the communities that have formed around them.
That is very interesting, I have *never* thought/had the feeling that
the community is build around Matz, maybe that is the sign of a true
leader.
But I am limited to the ML as nbody has yet invited me to a RubyConv
as a speaker ;)

But I agree 100% that he is an incredibly nice and easy going person.

> --
> M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
> http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/
>
> If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.
>
>
>
R.
Timothy H. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 02:21
(Received via mailing list)
Robert D. wrote:
>
> But I agree 100% that he is an incredibly nice and easy going person.

Matz personally answered my very first post to ruby-talk. That was Feb
27, 2002, just a hair over 5 years ago. I was surprised and pleased and
have remained that way ever since.
Greg K. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 04:46
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 3, 1:29 am, Dave T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> On any other language list, if I announced a book on a different
> language, I'd get flamed until crisp.
>
> Here, all you folks say is "cool".
>
> It's a nice place to call home.
>
> Dave

I would agree. Out of the various languages I've worked with (or at
least dabbled in) such as Java, C, C++, C#, VB, Python, Smalltalk, and
Ruby, that the Ruby community is the best. In terms of being
courteous, friendly, helpful, and active. There are newsgroups or
mailing lists for other languages that might try to help but are just
so inactive due to a small user base. Then there is the opposite. A
language that's so big that one person's post is ignored or at best it
receives a curt reply such as "Google in your friend." The Ruby
community as a whole has a sense of humor, likes to explore other
languages, and realizes there's more than one tool to do the job.

For a newbie looking to pick a programming language to start out with,
if they are interested in the community as a resource then browse the
various newsgroups and mailing lists. See what the replies are and how
welcome newbies are. Ruby would be #1 in my book.
Greg K. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 04:50
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 3, 1:29 am, Dave T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> On any other language list, if I announced a book on a different
> language, I'd get flamed until crisp.
>
> Here, all you folks say is "cool".
>
> It's a nice place to call home.
>
> Dave

I would agree. Out of the various languages I've worked with (or at
least dabbled in) such as Java, C, C++, C#, VB, Python, Smalltalk, and
Ruby, that the Ruby community is the best. In terms of being
courteous, friendly, helpful, and active. There are newsgroups or
mailing lists for other languages that might try to help but are just
so inactive due to a small user base. Then there is the opposite. A
language that's so big that one person's post is ignored or at best it
receives a curt reply such as "Google in your friend." The Ruby
community as a whole has a sense of humor, likes to explore other
languages, and realizes there's more than one tool to do the job.

For a newbie looking to pick a programming language to start out with,
if they are interested in the community as a resource then browse the
various newsgroups and mailing lists. See what the replies are and how
welcome newbies are. Ruby would be #1 in my book.
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 07:12
(Received via mailing list)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 02:34:57AM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> >
> Seriously, though, someone ought to do a sociological study of
> "benevolent dictators" like Matz, DHH, Guido and Linus (Torvalds) and
> the communities that have formed around them.

Those are some excellent examples of nice people who are community
leaders by dint of having created the focus of the community in the
first place.  I'm simply astounded that Larry Wall didn't make your
list, however.  He's sort of one of the pioneers of community accretion
in this tradition.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 07:32
(Received via mailing list)
Chad P. wrote:
> list, however.  He's sort of one of the pioneers of community accretion
> in this tradition.
>
>
By the time I discovered Perl, it was long out of Larry Wall's hands and
into the mainstream. And I never even knew about open source communities
way back then. I got into Perl in the Perl 4 days as a replacement for
awk. There may have been a thriving Perl community then, but I wasn't
part of it.

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
Giles B. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 08:54
(Received via mailing list)
> part of it.
Larry Wall definitely still plays a role in the Perl world. At least,
the development of Perl 6. I was really skeptical about Perl 6 but I
think it's going to be very, very entertaining. (I don't know if it'll
be entirely useful, but I'm sure it'll be interesting.)
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 09:00
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/4/07, Giles B. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> > part of it.
>
> Larry Wall definitely still plays a role in the Perl world. At least,
> the development of Perl 6. I was really skeptical about Perl 6 but I
> think it's going to be very, very entertaining. (I don't know if it'll
> be entirely useful, but I'm sure it'll be interesting.)
At a certain moment I stopped looking at perl6, one of the reasons I
am here BTW.
Is Perl6 really going to happen? I would be delighted but I felt that
the complexity/speed ratio was below the critical limit.
Hopefully I was wrong.

But someone pointed it out in this list already. "It sure would be sad
not to have Perl6 but having Parrot alone is a great achievement
already."

Robert
Rick D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 19:42
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/3/07, Avdi G. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> No, not *that* Dave T..  Note that that page is about the guy who
> founded Object Technology International, not the guy who co-wrote The
> Pragmatic Programmer and the Pickaxe.

You beat me to it.  I knew the OTI Dave T. long before I
encountered Ruby, worked with him on various Smalltalk and OOPSLA
things then when IBM acquired OTI, then for him when OTI borrowed me
from IBM.  We always referred to him as "Big Dave."

When I first ran across Ruby and the Prag Programmers, I wondered if
it was the same Dave T..

Actually, it's amazing how many Dave T.es of note there are/were,
the ones I was already aware of were:

   * Dave T. of Prag Programmers
   * Dave T. of OTI
   * Dave T. of Second City and "The Mackenzie Brothers"
   * Dave T. the founder of Wendy's

But there are oh so many more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Thomas

I'm beginning to think that Dave T. is Welsh for John S.!

Somehow if I ever managed to find fame, I wouldn't have quite the same
problem, although there seems to be an Italian-Canadian kickboxer with
the same last name famous enough to have a wikipedia article.

--
Rick DeNatale

My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 23:16
(Received via mailing list)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 02:31:59PM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> >first place.  I'm simply astounded that Larry Wall didn't make your
> >list, however.  He's sort of one of the pioneers of community accretion
> >in this tradition.
> >
> >
> By the time I discovered Perl, it was long out of Larry Wall's hands and
> into the mainstream. And I never even knew about open source communities
> way back then. I got into Perl in the Perl 4 days as a replacement for
> awk. There may have been a thriving Perl community then, but I wasn't
> part of it.

There still is a thriving Perl community.  Check out PerlMonks, for
instance.
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 23:17
(Received via mailing list)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 03:53:38PM +0900, Giles B. wrote:
> >part of it.
>
> Larry Wall definitely still plays a role in the Perl world. At least,
> the development of Perl 6. I was really skeptical about Perl 6 but I
> think it's going to be very, very entertaining. (I don't know if it'll
> be entirely useful, but I'm sure it'll be interesting.)

He's involved in more than Perl 6.  He also occasionally participates in
discussions at PerlMonks, for instance -- though one might not recognize
his username there, at first glance.
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-03-04 23:24
(Received via mailing list)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 04:00:03PM +0900, Robert D. wrote:
> >> awk. There may have been a thriving Perl community then, but I wasn't
> Hopefully I was wrong.
I made a very flippant, fairly public prediction that we'd see something
along the lines of a release candidate for Perl 6 in about 18 months,
give or take.  The reasons I cited for such a prediction are mostly
nonsense, the prediction being mostly in jest (in a "ha ha only serious"
sense), but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if I was right nonetheless.

Steve Yegge, a programming weblog pundit of growing fame, speculated
that the Next Big Language(TM) would come out in about 18 months, and I
subsequently speculated in a weblog of my own about the language he must
have meant -- and in that speculation, I identified Perl 6 as the best
fit for his criteria for the NBL.  I also went off on a tangent about
other factors related to, but not specifically part of, the NBL
discussion.  It seems likely that Yegge was actually talking about
ECMAScript 4 (don't laugh -- it's looking like a much more serious
programming language than the current iteration), though Perl 6 fits his
criteria as he stated them even better than ECMAScript 4 does.  As such,
he may well have been predicting that Perl 6 will be roughly
release-worthy in about eighteen months, too.


>
> But someone pointed it out in this list already. "It sure would be sad
> not to have Perl6 but having Parrot alone is a great achievement
> already."

Worry not.  Perl 6 development has long since crossed the point of no
return.  Too much work has already been done, with multiple, fairly
complete testing implementations available and polished enough so that
you could be fooled into thinking you have a release version of a new
language in your hands.
Rimantas L. (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 00:52
(Received via mailing list)
<...>
> Steve Yegge, a programming weblog pundit of growing fame, speculated
> that the Next Big Language(TM) would come out in about 18 months, and I
> subsequently speculated in a weblog of my own about the language he must
> have meant -- and in that speculation, I identified Perl 6 as the best
> fit for his criteria for the NBL.
<...>

Isn't that the same Setve Yegge who called Perl an ancient language,
said
some interesting things about Larry as well and bid Perl farewell?

http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/ancient-languages-perl

Regards,
Rimantas
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 01:30
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 07:51:41AM +0900, Rimantas L. wrote:
>
> http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/ancient-languages-perl

Yeah.  I never said he was always right.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 04:05
(Received via mailing list)
Chad P. wrote:
> Worry not.  Perl 6 development has long since crossed the point of no
> return.  Too much work has already been done, with multiple, fairly
> complete testing implementations available and polished enough so that
> you could be fooled into thinking you have a release version of a new
> language in your hands.
>
So are you saying that one, should one be interested, could become a
Perl 6 user and try to write "killer apps" in Perl 6? How easy would
that be for someone who's a Perl 4 hacker that can copy working Perl 5
examples out of a book and get them to execute? :)


--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 07:27
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 11:04:08AM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> examples out of a book and get them to execute? :)
Perl 6 is actually a pretty significant departure from even Perl 5, let
alone Perl 6.  I can follow the syntax (being a Perl 5 guy), but it's
not exactly the same language.  To get the idea across . . . you can
write simple scripts in Perl 4 and they'll still execute with a Perl 5
interpreter without making any major changes.  The same, it seems, is
not true of Perl 5 and Perl 6.  It has been said many times that Perl 6
is more a new language than a new release version of an old language.

For instance, try this on for size: Perl 6 apparently won't
automatically "flatten" nested lists.  At first glance, that might just
look like a small design decision, but that fundamentally changes quite
a lot about the language.  No longer is dereferencing syntax necessary
for complex data structures, for instance -- you can just pile a list
inside a list.

It looks like Perl 5 and Perl 6 will be forks of Perl, with Perl 5
development continuing into the future.

Yes, you could probably write a production application in Perl 6 right
now, but Perl 6 is a moving target right now.  If you're planning to put
Perl 6 code in production now, you'd better bundle it with an
interpreter and be ready to support the interpreter yourself.  You'd be
better off, if you want to play with Perl 6 at this point, to do just
that for now -- play with it.  Learn it to the best of your ability,
write toy scripts and even automate non-critical tasks, and submit bug
reports when things don't work as expected.  Right now, using Perl 6 is
more a hobby and a way to help the further development of Perl 6 than a
means of getting Real Work done.  At least, that's my understanding.
Giles B. (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 10:32
(Received via mailing list)
Yeah, Perl 5 and Perl 6 are definitely different, and Perl 6 is
definitely breaking backwards compatibility. If that thing about Perl
5 development continuing even after Perl 6's release is true, I don't
think that sounds very promising. Some of the ideas in Perl 6 are
pretty fascinating and weird, but that doesn't necessarily make it
useful.
Giles B. (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 10:33
(Received via mailing list)
Sorry, meant also to say, Perl 5 is backwards-compatible with Perl 4.
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 10:35
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 05:32:02PM +0900, Giles B. wrote:
> Yeah, Perl 5 and Perl 6 are definitely different, and Perl 6 is
> definitely breaking backwards compatibility. If that thing about Perl
> 5 development continuing even after Perl 6's release is true, I don't
> think that sounds very promising. Some of the ideas in Perl 6 are
> pretty fascinating and weird, but that doesn't necessarily make it
> useful.

Um, yes.  Thank you for that thoughtful analysis.

I'm looking forward to Perl 6.  You don't have to.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 11:25
(Received via mailing list)
Chad P. wrote:
>
Well then ... as a "hobby", what advantage does learning Perl 6 have
over, say, Erlang or Haskell, both of which have significant if not
"killer" apps? One would be choosing between getting in on the "ground
floor" of what, as opposed to climbing on a rolling bandwagon that
appears to be gaining momentum?

I guess I'm looking for a "killer language feature" in Perl 6. I don't
know enough about Haskell to know if it has any killer features, but I
know of at least two in Erlang -- concurrency done with lightweight
processes and some pretty good compile-time code checking tools. Now
Ruby, of course, could very easily learn lightweight processes, but
nobody seems to think it's possible to do compile-time code checking,
and quite a few Rubyists don't even think such tools have any value.


--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
Dick D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 12:04
(Received via mailing list)
On 02/03/07, James B. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Dave T. wrote:
> > We were lucky to get Joe Armstrong, one of the inventors of Erlang, to
> > write our latest beta book, Programming Erlang.

> Sweet.  Any plans for a Haskell book?

That's just what I was going to say. This one looks great though, thanks
Dave.
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 13:01
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 06:25:03PM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> >means of getting Real Work done.  At least, that's my understanding.
> >
> Well then ... as a "hobby", what advantage does learning Perl 6 have
> over, say, Erlang or Haskell, both of which have significant if not
> "killer" apps? One would be choosing between getting in on the "ground
> floor" of what, as opposed to climbing on a rolling bandwagon that
> appears to be gaining momentum?

Hey, if you don't like things with the name Perl on them, or only learn
languages when they have a significant post-release momentum to them,
that's fine.  Choose accordingly.  If, on the other hand, you find that
you like what you've read or heard about Perl 6, then maybe you'd find
it interesting to learn.  The above reads like you're trying to put me
on the defensive, but really, I don't have anything to defend.


>
> I guess I'm looking for a "killer language feature" in Perl 6. I don't
> know enough about Haskell to know if it has any killer features, but I
> know of at least two in Erlang -- concurrency done with lightweight
> processes and some pretty good compile-time code checking tools. Now
> Ruby, of course, could very easily learn lightweight processes, but
> nobody seems to think it's possible to do compile-time code checking,
> and quite a few Rubyists don't even think such tools have any value.

Try this for a "killer feature":
It's kinda like Perl 5, but better.  (At least, that's the theory.)

If you hate Perl, maybe that means it's not for you.

On the other hand . . . Perl 6 is doing some interesting things with
list handling and inheritance -- like, it's not actually using
"inheritance", per se.  It's using trait composition instead to achieve
similar effects.  I've never used a trait composition system like this
before, and the idea interests me.  It looks like it may, implemented
well, be a significant improvement for more dynamic programming idioms
over more traditional inheritance.

Hey, it's a new language.  I have a better question than to ask why I
should learn it.  How about "Why not?"
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 14:28
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/5/07, Chad P. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> I'm looking forward to Perl 6.  You don't have to.
Of course that is somehow normal between civilized people :)
But I am afraid that the Perl community just loses too much momentum
to remain a mainstream language as it was.
That might not bother A. B might think that it will not happen, and I
am just C, having stopped putting effort into understanding Perl6
because of that risk.

I kind of feel sad about that.
Your optimism is a good thing to share, and I thank you for it,
nonetheless I remain skeptical.
But I am wrong quite often ;)

Robert
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 17:20
(Received via mailing list)
Chad P. wrote:
> Hey, if you don't like things with the name Perl on them, or only learn
> languages when they have a significant post-release momentum to them,
> that's fine.  Choose accordingly.  If, on the other hand, you find that
> you like what you've read or heard about Perl 6, then maybe you'd find
> it interesting to learn.  The above reads like you're trying to put me
> on the defensive, but really, I don't have anything to defend.
>
No, I wasn't trying to put *you* on the defensive. :) I have no problem
with Perl 5 and its current massive post-release momentum. I haven't
heard much about Perl 6 recently. I have a moderate-sized Perl 4.999999
... code base that I maintain, but I don't write new code in Perl at all
-- it's either Ruby or R. My point is simply this -- Perl 6 may turn out
to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it's a laboratory
curiosity as far as I'm concerned. I can't use it for production, and
it's got too large a community and too much momentum for me to have any
significance in its progress unless it's got something nobody else has.
> Try this for a "killer feature":
> It's kinda like Perl 5, but better.  (At least, that's the theory.)
>
Well, I don't really have any issues with Perl 5. It's got just about
everything anyone could possibly want.
> If you hate Perl, maybe that means it's not for you.
>
I don't hate Perl -- I simply prefer other languages.
> On the other hand . . . Perl 6 is doing some interesting things with
> list handling and inheritance -- like, it's not actually using
> "inheritance", per se.  It's using trait composition instead to achieve
> similar effects.  I've never used a trait composition system like this
> before, and the idea interests me.  It looks like it may, implemented
> well, be a significant improvement for more dynamic programming idioms
> over more traditional inheritance.
>
Well ... that's more what I meant by a "killer language feature".
> Hey, it's a new language.  I have a better question than to ask why I
> should learn it.  How about "Why not?"
>
It's not a question of why or why not for me ... it's a question of "why
now?" And I can't come up with a reason to learn it now -- it's too far
along for me to change it, and too far from finished for me to use it
professionally. So I don't mind waiting until it is of professional
significance and not a hobby language. But I certainly don't have any
hatred for it just because it's Perl.

Now if the Perl 6 community were to decide, "OK ... we've had our fun
... let's tie up all the loose ends and push towards a
professional-quality *release*" -- you know, things like code freezes --
then I might be tempted to learn it. :)


--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
SonOfLilit (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 20:02
(Received via mailing list)
I agree full-heartedly.

The responses to my adopt-a-newbie suggestion were totally amazing
(search on ML) and led to the establishment of RubyMentor (
http://rubymentor.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl ).

Amazing community!
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-03-05 23:46
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:20:04AM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> hatred for it just because it's Perl.
Well, that makes sense.  I'm not learning it right now, either.  I'm
following its development, somewhat, as an interested observer.  I'm
interested in what its final form will be.  I'll probably start learning
it right about the time I'm pretty sure I won't have to discard
everything I've learned and start over again -- after release, in other
words.

I was asked about its value as a programming language right now, so I
described it in some detail from my perspective -- something to do for
fun or to help with development, and not so much something to do for
career enhancement.  I'd go for the "for fun" option, if there weren't
too many other things I'm already doing for fun -- like working on
achieving real competence with Ruby.


>
> Now if the Perl 6 community were to decide, "OK ... we've had our fun
> ... let's tie up all the loose ends and push towards a
> professional-quality *release*" -- you know, things like code freezes --
> then I might be tempted to learn it. :)

I'm already tempted, but I can resist temptation until that point.  It's
pretty easy, when giving in to temptation at this point would have to
involve reallocating yet more sleep time.
Giles B. (Guest)
on 2007-03-06 01:08
(Received via mailing list)
I don't understand the defensiveness but the great selling point of
Perl 6 at this point is its extraordinary eccentricity. The Roles
system is based on an idea from Squeak S. called Traits:

"We buy the argument of the Traits paper that classes should not be
used both to manage objects and to manage code reuse. It needs to be
possible to separate those concerns."

(http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2004/04/16/a12.html)

Obviously this is pretty different from the standard class-centric OO
paradigm.

There's also a set-like datatype which was inspired by quantum
physics. They made such weird, fun decisions that I feel like I have
to check it out.
Eleanor McHugh (Guest)
on 2007-03-06 12:53
(Received via mailing list)
On 3 Mar 2007, at 07:22, _why wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 03:29:18PM +0900, Dave T. wrote:
>> On any other language list, if I announced a book on a different
>> language, I'd get flamed until crisp.
>
> You should do one on VBScript.  I'd like to see what that reaction
> would be like.  For my own purposes.

A couple of years ago when I was doing real-time VB I'd have been up
for writing that ;)


Ellie

Eleanor McHugh
Games With Brains
----
raise ArgumentError unless @reality.responds_to? :reason
Robert K. (Guest)
on 2007-03-06 14:40
(Received via mailing list)
On 06.03.2007 11:52, Eleanor McHugh wrote:
> On 3 Mar 2007, at 07:22, _why wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 03:29:18PM +0900, Dave T. wrote:
>>> On any other language list, if I announced a book on a different
>>> language, I'd get flamed until crisp.
>>
>> You should do one on VBScript.  I'd like to see what that reaction
>> would be like.  For my own purposes.
>
> A couple of years ago when I was doing real-time VB I'd have been up for
> writing that ;)

Ouch!  Did you mention "real time" and "VB" in one sentence?  I know
that "real time" mostly just means "guaranteed response times" but in my
mental world VB and real time don't mix very well.  (Which probably only
means that I have to adjust my mind.)

Amazing...

  robert
Avdi G. (Guest)
on 2007-03-06 17:21
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/6/07, Robert K. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> On 06.03.2007 11:52, Eleanor McHugh wrote:
> Ouch!  Did you mention "real time" and "VB" in one sentence?  I know
> that "real time" mostly just means "guaranteed response times" but in my
> mental world VB and real time don't mix very well.  (Which probably only
> means that I have to adjust my mind.)

Well, writing apps in VB can take a real(ly long) time...
Eleanor McHugh (Guest)
on 2007-03-07 13:30
(Received via mailing list)
On 6 Mar 2007, at 12:40, Robert K. wrote:
>
> Ouch!  Did you mention "real time" and "VB" in one sentence?  I
> know that "real time" mostly just means "guaranteed response times"
> but in my mental world VB and real time don't mix very well.
> (Which probably only means that I have to adjust my mind.)
>
> Amazing...

To the best of my knowledge I'm the only person who's ever had a pure
VB5 system certified for aviation use. Needless to say I avoid flying
whenever possible - who knows what other horrors lurk in the cockpit...

Of course if I still worked for that company I'd probably be doing a
Rails version ;p


Ellie

Eleanor McHugh
Games With Brains
----
raise ArgumentError unless @reality.responds_to? :reason
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-03-07 13:55
(Received via mailing list)
>
> To the best of my knowledge I'm the only person who's ever had a pure
> VB5 system certified for aviation use.
You mean you can use it inside an airplane, right. Not to operate an
airplane surely
;)
Eleanor McHugh (Guest)
on 2007-03-07 14:05
(Received via mailing list)
On 7 Mar 2007, at 11:54, Robert D. wrote:
>>
>> To the best of my knowledge I'm the only person who's ever had a pure
>> VB5 system certified for aviation use.
> You mean you can use it inside an airplane, right. Not to operate an
> airplane surely
> ;)

It was a cockpit navigation/mission planning system, so in theory yes
it could operate an airplane. I don't think anyone was ever quite
_that_ trusting though lol


Ellie

Eleanor McHugh
Games With Brains
----
raise ArgumentError unless @reality.responds_to? :reason
Robert K. (Guest)
on 2007-03-07 14:55
(Received via mailing list)
On 07.03.2007 13:04, Eleanor McHugh wrote:
> trusting though lol
:-)

What happened to it?  Was it one of the many IT projects that got
canceled half way?

Kind regards

  robert
Eleanor McHugh (Guest)
on 2007-03-07 15:37
(Received via mailing list)
On 7 Mar 2007, at 12:55, Robert K. wrote:
> What happened to it?  Was it one of the many IT projects that got
> canceled half way?

Oh no, it made it into production: http://www.skyforceobserver.com/

I had absolutely nothing to do with the MK II or MK III versions but
I'm assuming they'll have switched from VB to something more industry-
standard. I seem to recall a lot of talk about "industry best
practices" but hey, that's for kind of people who like writing
version 2.0's >;D


Ellie

Eleanor McHugh
Games With Brains
----
raise ArgumentError unless @reality.responds_to? :reason
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:01
(Received via mailing list)
Bil K. wrote:
>  http://erlang.se/doc/doc-5.4/doc/getting_started/p...
>
> Neat.
>
> Thanks for the shove,
> --
> Bil K.
> http://fun3d.larc.nasa.gov
>
>
I went one better -- installed Erlang *and* wings3d! Perhaps the poster
who gets segfaults in Ubuntu could email me the test case off list??

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given
rabbits fire.
Giles B. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:01
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/5/07, David K. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> My experience with Erlang is -very- limited, but I thought it seemed like it
> had potential. By focusing on something that isn't really covered too much
> in other languages and trying to be really good at it, it separates itself
> from the crowd nicely (imho at least ;) ). I've heard that the web server
> written in Erlang (don't remember the name, sorry) is really good at
> handling heavy loads without shirking. If it could be configured to serve
> Rails apps... hey, best of both worlds! :D

ErlyWeb (framework) and Yaws (server).
David K. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:04
(Received via mailing list)
My experience with Erlang is -very- limited, but I thought it seemed
like it
had potential. By focusing on something that isn't really covered too
much
in other languages and trying to be really good at it, it separates
itself
from the crowd nicely (imho at least ;) ). I've heard that the web
server
written in Erlang (don't remember the name, sorry) is really good at
handling heavy loads without shirking. If it could be configured to
serve
Rails apps... hey, best of both worlds! :D

Dave Kapp
http://www.dobeeploop.com
Bil K. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:07
(Received via mailing list)
Dave T. wrote:
>
>      http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/jaerlang/

Ordered.

While waiting for the PDF to arrive, I complied Erlang on
my OSX box and wrote some simple code via the fine online
tutorial:

  http://erlang.se/doc/doc-5.4/doc/getting_started/p...

Neat.

Thanks for the shove,
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