Forum: Ruby ruby-forum.com

Announcement (2017-05-07): www.ruby-forum.com is now read-only since I unfortunately do not have the time to support and maintain the forum any more. Please see rubyonrails.org/community and ruby-lang.org/en/community for other Rails- und Ruby-related community platforms.
Hal F. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 12:07
(Received via mailing list)
Who owns ruby-forum.com and why is it connected
to the mailing list?

Is this policy open for discussion?


Hal
Florian G. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 14:14
(Received via mailing list)
Hal F. wrote:

> Who owns ruby-forum.com and why is it connected
> to the mailing list?
>
> Is this policy open for discussion?

I think it being connected to the mailing list has a lot of benefits and
as far as I know there has been no spam caused by it yet.

It would be cool if it had support for receiving attachments, though.
Daniel Völkerts (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 14:45
(Received via mailing list)
Florian G. schrieb:
> Hal F. wrote:
>
>> Who owns ruby-forum.com and why is it connected
>> to the mailing list?

I guess it is Andreas S., as the footer suggested!?

g,
Austin Z. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 16:05
(Received via mailing list)
On 6/6/06, Florian G. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Hal F. wrote:
>> Who owns ruby-forum.com and why is it connected
>> to the mailing list?

>> Is this policy open for discussion?
> I think it being connected to the mailing list has a lot of benefits and
> as far as I know there has been no spam caused by it yet.

No, not spam. If, however, you look at the quality of postings that
originate there, there's a lot of trollish and generally impolite
behaviour.

> It would be cool if it had support for receiving attachments, though.

It'd be even cooler if it had more than a single line in the main list
of "forums" that the "Ruby Forum" is a gateway to the ruby-talk
mailing list. Or if the posting forum didn't allow you to post to
ruby-talk's gateway as a guest. Or if it even said "hey, moron! you're
not just posting to a web forum here! you're posting to a mailing
list!"

I really like the effort that Andreas has put into Ruby-Forum and it's
good software, but I think that there are impedance mismatch issues
with its use as a mailing list gateway. I don't know how much it
affects people who use "real" threading mail and newsreaders, but it
also mangles subject lines and messes up Google's grouping in gmail.

There's a definite etiquette problem, and unless something is changed,
I *do* think that the benefits are outweighed by the negatives.

-austin
Ross B. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 16:17
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, 2006-06-06 at 21:03 +0900, Austin Z. wrote:
> originate there, there's a lot of trollish and generally impolite
> behaviour.
>
> > It would be cool if it had support for receiving attachments, though.
>
> It'd be even cooler if it had more than a single line in the main list
> of "forums" that the "Ruby Forum" is a gateway to the ruby-talk
> mailing list. Or if the posting forum didn't allow you to post to
> ruby-talk's gateway as a guest.

Just that would be an improvement, IMO.

> I really like the effort that Andreas has put into Ruby-Forum and it's
> good software, but I think that there are impedance mismatch issues
> with its use as a mailing list gateway. I don't know how much it
> affects people who use "real" threading mail and newsreaders, but it
> also mangles subject lines and messes up Google's grouping in gmail.

In evolution, subject lines are okay but when I hit reply to a
ruby-forum message its headers are set up to go to the newsgroup rather
than the list. That's pretty annoying now they're separate (and
ruby-forum posts don't seem to hit the newsgroup anyway).
Jim W. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 16:27
Ross B. wrote:

>> [...] Or if the posting forum didn't allow you to post to
>> ruby-talk's gateway as a guest.
>
> Just that would be an improvement, IMO.

That might be helpful.

I would hate to see the forum disconnected from the list.  In
combination with  firefox tabs and mouse gestures, its one of the
fastest ways to skim the list.

-- Jim W.
Simen E. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 16:36
(Received via mailing list)
It's nice to skim the list, but I find it's easy to misquote when you
have all the posts in front of you, it gives you the impression that
you're on a forum where it really doesn't matter. A "ruby-talk" label
in Gmail is just as easy, I've found.
Matthew S. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 18:28
(Received via mailing list)
On Jun 6, 2006, at 13:27, Jim W. wrote:

> Ross B. wrote:
>
>>> [...] Or if the posting forum didn't allow you to post to
>>> ruby-talk's gateway as a guest.
>>
>> Just that would be an improvement, IMO.
>
> That might be helpful.

It might be helpful, but I'm not really sure that it's the medium of
posting that's the problem.  There wasn't any similar problem when
the usenet gateway worked.

That said, I'm also of the view that the quality and tone of the
questions from ruby-forum often leave something to be desired.

I have a hunch this is because google groups and mailing lists tend
to be used by people who already know what they're looking for, and
already know where the docs live.  I'd bet that a number of the
people posting from the forum are probably not aware of all the
resources available to them.

I think that it might be a better improvement to add links to
standard Ruby documentation (ruby-lang.org, online Pickaxe, ruby-
doc.org, Poignant Guide, et alia) on the forum pages - currently they
only link to other forums.  I'm pretty firm in my belief that this
would benefit everyone involved.  And I mean, really, what good is a
'ruby forum' that lacks even a link to the ruby homepage?

If such links actually improve things, then everyone benefits.  If it
doesn't, well, we can always ask to move it read-only later on.

matthew smillie.
James B. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 22:38
(Received via mailing list)
Matthew S. wrote:
...

> That said, I'm also of the view that the quality and tone of the
> questions from ruby-forum often leave something to be desired.
>
> I have a hunch this is because google groups and mailing lists tend  to
> be used by people who already know what they're looking for, and
> already know where the docs live.  I'd bet that a number of the  people
> posting from the forum are probably not aware of all the  resources
> available to them.

I read an article on someone's site that critiqued Ruby form the view of
a PHP developer, and I got the strong sense that this person thought
Ruby and Rails were one and the same, and that Ruby Forum was the only
public forum.

People come to Ruby by a variety of vectors, but not all of them
encourage the Big Picture.  So we end up with various subcultures and
communities, with assorted friction.


>
> I think that it might be a better improvement to add links to  standard
> Ruby documentation (ruby-lang.org, online Pickaxe, ruby- doc.org,
> Poignant Guide, et alia) on the forum pages - currently they  only link
> to other forums.  I'm pretty firm in my belief that this  would benefit
> everyone involved.  And I mean, really, what good is a  'ruby forum'
> that lacks even a link to the ruby homepage?

Agreed.  It might give people a fuller sense of the Ruby community and
available resources.

--
James B.

"I often work by avoidance."
- Brian Eno
Charlie B. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 22:41
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 03:36 +0900, James B. wrote:

> > that lacks even a link to the ruby homepage?
>
> Agreed.  It might give people a fuller sense of the Ruby community
> and
> available resources.
>

That's the best idea I've heard in a long time!

Charlie B.
http://www.recentrambles.com
Tim H. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 22:49
Charlie B. wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 03:36 +0900, James B. wrote:
>
>> > that lacks even a link to the ruby homepage?
>>
>> Agreed.  It might give people a fuller sense of the Ruby community
>> and
>> available resources.
>>
>
> That's the best idea I've heard in a long time!
>
> Charlie B.
> http://www.recentrambles.com

I get the idea that Andreas S., the man behind ruby-forum, is
responsive but doesn't always keep up with all the postings. Probably it
would be a good idea to email any suggestions you have directly to him.
His email address is at the bottom of the web page.
Matthew S. (Guest)
on 2006-06-06 23:12
(Received via mailing list)
On Jun 6, 2006, at 19:50, Tim H. wrote:

>
> I get the idea that Andreas S., the man behind ruby-forum, is
> responsive but doesn't always keep up with all the postings.
> Probably it
> would be a good idea to email any suggestions you have directly to
> him.
> His email address is at the bottom of the web page.

I've sent him a pointer and summary.

matthew smillie.
Dave B. (Guest)
on 2006-06-07 03:54
(Received via mailing list)
Tim H. wrote:
> I get the idea that Andreas S., the man behind ruby-forum, is
> responsive but doesn't always keep up with all the postings. ...

Does anyone read all 4000 posts per month?

Cheers,
Dave
Austin Z. (Guest)
on 2006-06-07 04:00
(Received via mailing list)
On 6/6/06, Dave B. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Tim H. wrote:
> > I get the idea that Andreas S., the man behind ruby-forum, is
> > responsive but doesn't always keep up with all the postings. ...
> Does anyone read all 4000 posts per month?

I try. ;) GMail makes it easier.

-austin
Hal F. (Guest)
on 2006-06-07 04:03
(Received via mailing list)
Austin Z. wrote:
> On 6/6/06, Dave B. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Tim H. wrote:
>> > I get the idea that Andreas S., the man behind ruby-forum, is
>> > responsive but doesn't always keep up with all the postings. ...
>> Does anyone read all 4000 posts per month?
>
>
> I try. ;) GMail makes it easier.

I also try.  :) I'd venture to say that nearly
every byte of it flashes before my eyes at
some point.

Of course, most of it I just skim.


Hal
Eric H. (Guest)
on 2006-06-07 04:34
(Received via mailing list)
On Jun 6, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Dave B. wrote:

> Tim H. wrote:
>> I get the idea that Andreas S., the man behind ruby-forum, is
>> responsive but doesn't always keep up with all the postings. ...
>
> Does anyone read all 4000 posts per month?

I'm writing tools to read my mailing list traffic for me and tell me
what's interesting.  I get between 500 and 1000 mailing list mails
per day.

--
Eric H. - removed_email_address@domain.invalid - http://blog.segment7.net
This implementation is HODEL-HASH-9600 compliant

http://trackmap.robotcoop.com
Victor S. (Guest)
on 2006-06-07 04:58
(Received via mailing list)
From: Eric H. [mailto:removed_email_address@domain.invalid]
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:34 AM
> per day.
Sound exciting. What is the principle, on which your tool selects
"interesting" postings? By keywords?

V.
Eric H. (Guest)
on 2006-06-07 05:26
(Received via mailing list)
On Jun 6, 2006, at 5:55 PM, Victor S. wrote:

>> I'm writing tools to read my mailing list traffic for me and tell me
>> what's interesting.  I get between 500 and 1000 mailing list mails
>> per day.
>
> Sound exciting. What is the principle, on which your tool selects
> "interesting" postings? By keywords?

I've written parts one and two:

http://seattlerb.rubyforge.org/IMAPCleanse/

I'm planning on using per-mailbox Bayesian analysis for phase three.
What's interesting to me on this mailing list is not the same as
what's interesting on FreeBSD-current.

--
Eric H. - removed_email_address@domain.invalid - http://blog.segment7.net
This implementation is HODEL-HASH-9600 compliant

http://trackmap.robotcoop.com
why the lucky stiff (Guest)
on 2006-06-07 06:27
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 10:23:17AM +0900, Eric H. wrote:
>
> http://seattlerb.rubyforge.org/IMAPCleanse/
>

My crontab and I attest.  I love how the whole suite works together.
You set up
imap_cleanse and imap_flag just does its thing.  Yummy slash legendary.

_why
Hal F. (Guest)
on 2006-06-07 08:23
(Received via mailing list)
Eric H. wrote:
>
> I'm writing tools to read my mailing list traffic for me and tell me
> what's interesting.  I get between 500 and 1000 mailing list mails  per
> day.

This reminds me of the "electric monk" of Douglas Adams. Just as
dishwashers wash dishes so we don't have to, and VCRs watch TV
for us, the electric monk believes things on our behalf...

Now if you can only write software that will not only find the
interesting emails and read them, but post relevant replies...  ;)


Hal
Giles B. (Guest)
on 2006-06-08 02:07
(Received via mailing list)
>
> I'm planning on using per-mailbox Bayesian analysis for phase three.
> What's interesting to me on this mailing list is not the same as
> what's interesting on FreeBSD-current.

Bayesian filtering on a topic by topic basis!! Awesome!!!

Integrate that into the mailreader in a transparent way and even Gmail
will look clunky!!

(Sorry, I'll stop salivating now...)
Stephen W. (Guest)
on 2006-06-08 03:13
(Received via mailing list)
Eric H. wrote:
>
> I've written parts one and two:
> http://seattlerb.rubyforge.org/IMAPCleanse/

Nice work.. I did something to deal with my own Maildir overflowage,
though it's simpler and infinitely more hacky.  But, it's been working
well for me for quite awhile now.

--Steve

[swaits@gateway] [4:07pm]
         [~] 140> cat bin/archive-Maildir.rb
#!/usr/local/bin/ruby

archive_list = [
         [".Lists.GDAlgorithms",    ".Archive.Lists.GDAlgorithms", 28],
         [".Lists.LocomotiveUsers", nil,                           14],
         [".Lists.Mongrel",         nil,                           14],
         [".Lists.RubyTalk",        nil,                           14],
         [".Lists.SANS",            nil,                           28],
         [".Lists.SDRUG",           ".Archive.Lists.SDRUG",        28],
         [".Junk",                  nil,                            7],
]

Dir.chdir("/usr/users/swaits/Maildir")

i = 0

archive_list.each do |archive|
         srcdir = archive[0] + "/cur/"
         dstdir = archive[1] ? archive[1] + "/cur/" : nil
         expire = archive[2]

         Dir[srcdir+"*"].each do |oldname|
                 age_s = Time.new - File.mtime(oldname)
                 if age_s > (expire*24*60*60)
                         if dstdir
                                 if File.split(oldname)[1] =~
/^\d+[^:]*(:.*)?$/
                                         newname =
sprintf("#{dstdir}/%d.%d.autoarchive.%07d%s", Time.now.to_i,
Process.pid, i, Regexp.last_match(1))
                                         i += 1
                                         #puts "#{oldname} ->
#{newname}"
                                         File.rename(oldname, newname)
                                 end
                         else
                                 File.delete(oldname)
                                 #puts "delete #{oldname}"
                         end
                 end
                 #rescue SystemCallError
                 #       puts "Error moving #{oldname} -> #{newname}"
                 #end
         end
end
Eric H. (Guest)
on 2006-06-08 04:57
(Received via mailing list)
On Jun 7, 2006, at 3:07 PM, Giles B. wrote:

>> http://seattlerb.rubyforge.org/IMAPCleanse/
>>
>> I'm planning on using per-mailbox Bayesian analysis for phase three.
>> What's interesting to me on this mailing list is not the same as
>> what's interesting on FreeBSD-current.
>
> Bayesian filtering on a topic by topic basis!! Awesome!!!
>
> Integrate that into the mailreader in a transparent way and even Gmail
> will look clunky!!

I use the plain old flag button in the mail client to keep things
simple.

If a message is unread and flagged I should read it.  If I didn't
think it was really interesting I'll unflag it.

--
Eric H. - removed_email_address@domain.invalid - http://blog.segment7.net
This implementation is HODEL-HASH-9600 compliant

http://trackmap.robotcoop.com
Pistos C. (Guest)
on 2006-06-08 22:48
Matthew S. wrote:
>> I get the idea that Andreas S., the man behind ruby-forum, is
>> responsive but doesn't always keep up with all the postings.
>> Probably it
>> would be a good idea to email any suggestions you have directly to
>> him.
>> His email address is at the bottom of the web page.
>
> I've sent him a pointer and summary.

Here's to hoping we get not only a response, but some action.  It hasn't
been just one time where I've thought to myself "I'd just go and code
<improvement XYZ> myself, but I don't have access to ruby-forum.com".  I
realize that RForum may be open source, but no one but Andreas can go in
and hack up SPECIFICALLY ruby-forum.com's installation.

I'm ready, willing and able to code most of the asked-for changes.

As a ruby-forum.com user, I'd love to see it
- improve
- have issues removed
- not disappear
- not be disliked by an increasing percentage of ruby-talk "real MUA
users"
- not develop a bad reputation

I feel distinctly unempowered.

Pistos
Lou S. (Guest)
on 2006-06-09 17:30
(Received via mailing list)
How about adding an extra header to the messages sent via the forum
gateway?  Then you can just let people's mail filters do their thing
if they don't want the forum posts.

I realize that  it might be a bad idea to just blow away responses in
the middle of the thread, but most mail clients can do other things to
indicate you want to skip it (decrease priority? tags? et cetera).
Ryan L. (Guest)
on 2006-06-09 22:29
(Received via mailing list)
On 6/8/06, Pistos C. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> As a ruby-forum.com user, I'd love to see it
> - improve
> - have issues removed
> - not disappear
> - not be disliked by an increasing percentage of ruby-talk "real MUA
> users"
> - not develop a bad reputation
>
> I feel distinctly unempowered.

All of these are nice and would be welcome. I don't see ruby-forum
disappearing anytime soon, and I think it would help EVERYONE involved
if there was a extremely prominent FAQ on the site. We get a lot of
the same questions again and again (how many times have we seen "how
do I get a class out of a string class name?") It makes no sense for
newbies to have to ask these again and again and then for we ruby-talk
people to answer them again and again. From what I have seen
ruby-forum is mostly "take" with little "give", in other words the
people who post there are usually the ones seeking answers whereas we
ruby-talk people provide those answers. I'd be interested to see a
ruby-talk question answered by someone on the ruby-forum.

The problem is the ruby-forum caters to newbies with only a few
exceptions, with most of the Ruby "experts" on ruby-talk. Therefore I
see the forum as more of a burden to the rest of us than anything
else.

If efforts can be made to change that, I know I would appreciate it.

Ryan
Andreas S. (Guest)
on 2006-06-12 18:08
Matthew S. wrote:
> On Jun 6, 2006, at 19:50, Tim H. wrote:
>
>>
>> I get the idea that Andreas S., the man behind ruby-forum, is
>> responsive but doesn't always keep up with all the postings.
>> Probably it
>> would be a good idea to email any suggestions you have directly to
>> him.
>> His email address is at the bottom of the web page.
>
> I've sent him a pointer and summary.

Thanks.

I have added a short paragraph with some posting rules and links to the
Ruby FAQ & documentation directly above the post form (see
http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/new?forum_id=4). I have also disabled
posting for unregistered users.

I hope this will to improve the quality of postings from ruby-forum.com.
If you have any better suggestions, please tell me.

Andreas
Pistos C. (Guest)
on 2006-06-12 18:33
Andreas S. wrote:
>> I've sent him a pointer and summary.
>
> Thanks.
>
> I have added a short paragraph with some posting rules and links to the
> Ruby FAQ & documentation directly above the post form (see
> http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/new?forum_id=4). I have also disabled
> posting for unregistered users.
>
> I hope this will to improve the quality of postings from ruby-forum.com.
> If you have any better suggestions, please tell me.

Much gratitude from me for making these changes.  :)

Pistos
Austin Z. (Guest)
on 2006-06-12 18:35
(Received via mailing list)
On 6/12/06, Andreas S. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> I have added a short paragraph with some posting rules and links to the
> Ruby FAQ & documentation directly above the post form (see
> http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/new?forum_id=4). I have also disabled
> posting for unregistered users.
>
> I hope this will to improve the quality of postings from ruby-forum.com.
> If you have any better suggestions, please tell me.

Thank you. Hopefully, this will help.

-austin
Pistos C. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 00:01
It's difficult not to notice that sometimes posts from ruby-forum.com
inflame the ire of ruby-talk-only persons.

I'd be interested in seeing a document drafted detailing etiquette or
standards to which all ruby-talk-bound messages (whether MUA-originated
or ruby-forum.com-originated, or even comp.lang.ruby-originated) are to
conform.

I think we all want less ire and more joy all around.

Further to that goal, perhaps all ruby-forum.com-to-ruby-talk messages
should be moderated and require acceptance before being sent to the
mailing list?  If the traffic is only 20 messages a day or less, I'd be
happy to volunteer for said moderation.

Pistos
John G. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 00:30
(Received via mailing list)
On 6/14/06, Pistos C. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> It's difficult not to notice that sometimes posts from ruby-forum.com
> inflame the ire of ruby-talk-only persons.
>
> I'd be interested in seeing a document drafted detailing etiquette or
> standards to which all ruby-talk-bound messages (whether MUA-originated
> or ruby-forum.com-originated, or even comp.lang.ruby-originated) are to
> conform.

My guess is that the folks who might post inflammatory messages
(inadvertently or otherwise) probably aren't going to read such a
document.

> I think we all want less ire and more joy all around.
>
> Further to that goal, perhaps all ruby-forum.com-to-ruby-talk messages
> should be moderated and require acceptance before being sent to the
> mailing list?  If the traffic is only 20 messages a day or less, I'd be
> happy to volunteer for said moderation.
>
> Pistos

I think the best moderation is that which everyone here participates
in, and which is done publicly for the benefit of other prospective
posters.

That is, if someone posts something rude, off-topic, or even just
hasn't done their homework before shooting off a message, a prompt,
friendly, brief, and firm nudge in the right direction by anyone here
is probably all that's required.

For some posts it may be appropriate to toss in a link to ESR's
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html for good measure.

---John
Elliot T. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 00:57
(Received via mailing list)
On Jun 14, 2006, at 1:02 PM, Pistos C. wrote:

> It's difficult not to notice that sometimes posts from ruby-forum.com
> inflame the ire of ruby-talk-only persons.
>
> I'd be interested in seeing a document drafted detailing etiquette or
> standards to which all ruby-talk-bound messages (whether MUA-
> originated
> or ruby-forum.com-originated, or even comp.lang.ruby-originated)
> are to
> conform.

here are some rules of thumb. i'm sure others could add more.

- make your posts count. lots of people are going to see them.
- do not post fluff
- do not post "bump"
- do not post a question before you google and look at some docs
- quote correctly
- don't top post
- take the list seriously. we care about signal to noise ratio here.
- try not to ask questions answered in the Pickaxe index or table of
contents

if you want to talk before you think, maybe the irc room is a better
place. but the questions there are actually better thought out than a
lot of ruby-forum posts.

that said, i don't see that a document will help. as John G.
said, the problematic posters won't read it.

-- Elliot T.
http://www.curi.us/blog/
Phil H. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 01:53
(Received via mailing list)
Elliot T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> writes:

> if you want to talk before you think, maybe the irc room is a better
> place. but the questions there are actually better thought out than a
> lot of ruby-forum posts.

I think a lot of that is due to certain people being very diligent
about making nubies look at ri before they answer any simple
questions. Unfortunately corundum can't solve ML questions.

-Phil H.
http://technomancy.us
Pistos C. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 08:33
Elliot T. wrote:
> that said, i don't see that a document will help. as John G.
> said, the problematic posters won't read it.

That may be the case, but I think "document + moderators" at the
ruby-forum.com -> ruby-talk gateway would help quite a bit.  Essentially
it would "filter" at the entrypoint, preventing "bad" things from
getting through.  ruby-talk itself and comp.lang.ruby would of course
continue without explicit moderation.

Pistos
Edwin V. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 13:23
Pistos C. wrote:
> That may be the case, but I think "document + moderators" at the
> ruby-forum.com -> ruby-talk gateway would help quite a bit.  Essentially
> it would "filter" at the entrypoint, preventing "bad" things from
> getting through.  ruby-talk itself and comp.lang.ruby would of course
> continue without explicit moderation.
>
> Pistos
Shall we first wait for a couple of weeks to see what the effect of the
things changed by Andreas are (links to documentation and no
unregistered users).

I see the links don't include a link to something describing mailinglist
etiquette, so that might be nice to add.

Edwin
Reggie M. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 14:36
Ryan L. wrote:
> The problem is the ruby-forum caters to newbies with only a few
> exceptions, with most of the Ruby "experts" on ruby-talk. Therefore I
> see the forum as more of a burden to the rest of us than anything
> else.
>

What is happening to Ruby?
First you guys don't want Enterprises to use Ruby and now you want to
try to push new users away!

Why is their so much anger and unwillingness to help those of us that
are just trying to get a grasp of this beautiful language?

I understand that Ruby may have been around since the early 90's, but
most of us are just now really starting to hear about.

Why become an expert on Ruby-talk if don't want to talk about your
expertise?

Don't push us away, help us, and as more of us become more of an
"expert" with Ruby, we can start helping out with answering some of the
newbie questions.

Thanks
Matthew S. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 16:04
(Received via mailing list)
On Jun 15, 2006, at 11:36, Reggie Mr wrote:

> [...]
> Don't push us away, help us, and as more of us become more of an
> "expert" with Ruby, we can start helping out with answering some of
> the
> newbie questions.

How are new users being pushed away?  Seriously, have there been any
'newbie' questions recently that haven't been answered?

What has been going on, and I have a hard time faulting it, is
pointing people towards the online docs so they can answer their own
questions, and explaining some of the etiquette involved in using the
group,  so that they can get answers more effectively.

matthew smillie
Austin Z. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 16:39
(Received via mailing list)
On 6/15/06, Reggie Mr <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Ryan L. wrote:
> > The problem is the ruby-forum caters to newbies with only a few
> > exceptions, with most of the Ruby "experts" on ruby-talk. Therefore I
> > see the forum as more of a burden to the rest of us than anything
> > else.
> What is happening to Ruby?
> First you guys don't want Enterprises to use Ruby and now you want to
> try to push new users away!

Neither of these statements is true. The former is untrue because it
implies that people don't *want* it to happen. The reality is that
most people aren't willing to make special concessions to make it
happen, especially if those concessions would change the nature of
Ruby. The latter is untrue because you'll see a lot of people helping
people.

> Why is their so much anger and unwillingness to help those of us that
> are just trying to get a grasp of this beautiful language?

Again, this is untrue. There is anger about the level of _laziness_
and lack of manners from a lot of ruby-forum.com posters. Consider two
posts recently, even after the latest changes from Andreas.

The first post said "how do I execute a system command in Ruby? In PHP
it would be exec...". I'm sorry, but five minutes of documentation
searching would have answered the question. That's just lazy. We're
certainly willing to help, but that's a bit beyond. It's also
*completely* within my experience of the nonsense you get from web
boards, where people are (often) too lazy to spend an hour or so
searching (and often the search would take less time than that) before
they start asking questions.

The second was a "bump." Now, this is *common* in the web board world.
It's rude there, too, and one *certainly* doesn't do it a mere 18
hours after posting initially. However, it's *completely and utterly*
unacceptable on a mailing list. And that is what ruby-talk is; whether
people realise it or not, that's what the Ruby forum on ruby-forum.com
is, too.

> I understand that Ruby may have been around since the early 90's, but
> most of us are just now really starting to hear about.
>
> Why become an expert on Ruby-talk if don't want to talk about your
> expertise?
>
> Don't push us away, help us, and as more of us become more of an
> "expert" with Ruby, we can start helping out with answering some of the
> newbie questions.

We don't push people away who have at least shown that they're willing
to look or at least remember that they're posting to a mailing list
with *thousands* of recipients.

-austin
Christian N. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 18:07
(Received via mailing list)
Elliot T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> writes:

> - make your posts count. lots of people are going to see them.
> - do not post fluff
> - do not post "bump"
> - do not post a question before you google and look at some docs
> - quote correctly
> - don't top post
> - take the list seriously. we care about signal to noise ratio here.
> - try not to ask questions answered in the Pickaxe index or table of
> contents

- start new threads for new topics, don't just change the subject
Reggie M. (Guest)
on 2006-06-15 23:52
Austin Z. wrote:

>
> We don't push people away who have at least shown that they're willing
> to look or at least remember that they're posting to a mailing list
> with *thousands* of recipients.
>

Why does Ruby insist on using a Webboard instead of a regular newsgroup
forum?

It may solve some of the problems.

The problems that I have is that I can't follow/mark a thread.
Searching the webboard is extremely slow and sometime inaccurate.

Lets just switch it to a public newsgroup forum and let Ruby flourish.
There is no need to keep it bottled up like this.
Austin Z. (Guest)
on 2006-06-16 00:03
(Received via mailing list)
On 6/15/06, Reggie Mr <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Austin Z. wrote:
> > We don't push people away who have at least shown that they're willing
> > to look or at least remember that they're posting to a mailing list
> > with *thousands* of recipients.
> Why does Ruby insist on using a Webboard instead of a regular newsgroup
> forum?

That impression is probably at the root of your errors here. ruby-talk
is a mailing list. It is *not* a webboard. ruby-forum.com is a
*gateway* to the mailing list.

Ruby doesn't insist. Ruby-forum.com is a service -- of dubious value,
much of the time -- provided by a member of the community who
developed the software behind it.

ruby-talk has also historically been associated with comp.lang.ruby,
but our gateway host for that disappeared due to ... issues. (Not spam
or anything, but changing providers and a reneging on a promise by the
new provider. However, yet another new provider seems to be in the
works.)

Your wildly erroneous assumptions are one of the reasons that I
*loathe* the current state of the ruby-forum.com integration. This is
*despite* the following message at the top of a new post or reply.

  Please read before posting

  This forum is connected to a mailing list that is read by thousands of
people.
  Before you post, please use the FAQ, the Ruby documentation and Google
to
  find an answer to your question. If you can't find an answer there,
make sure to
  include all relevant information that is necessary to help you in your
post.

If you want to see this mailing list as it *actually* is, I suggest
subscribing to it by visiting the Ruby home page
(http://www.ruby-lang.org/).

-austin
Pistos C. (Guest)
on 2006-06-16 00:44
Austin Z. wrote:
>> Why does Ruby insist on using a Webboard instead of a regular newsgroup
>> forum?
> That impression is probably at the root of your errors here. ruby-talk
> is a mailing list. It is *not* a webboard. ruby-forum.com is a
> *gateway* to the mailing list.

I think utter and blatant misconceptions such as these are good reason
to augment and/or adjust the "please read" blurb for ruby-forum.com ...
we apparently are not getting through.  :)

Perhaps something along the lines of: "This forum is a gateway to a
mailing list; it is NOT a forum on its own.  All normal mailing list
etiquette and standards apply."

and/or: "When posting to the ruby-talk mailing list via this forum, you
should consider yourself a VISITOR in a foreign place.  As such, please
acquaint yourself with some rules and standards of etiquette. <clickable
link>"

and/or: "Be forewarned that people have been seriously flamed for their
posts to ruby-talk via this forum.  See [here] for what/how NOT to
post."

Pistos
Elliot T. (Guest)
on 2006-06-16 02:19
(Received via mailing list)
On Jun 15, 2006, at 5:37 AM, Austin Z. wrote:

> Again, this is untrue. There is anger about the level of _laziness_
> and lack of manners from a lot of ruby-forum.com posters. Consider two
> posts recently, even after the latest changes from Andreas.

a third one just now reads (for anyone not following the other thread
its from about duplicate posts):

> What an arse you are.
>
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

if you want to flame someone, at least do it off list, not in front
of hundreds of people.

-- Elliot T.
http://www.curi.us/blog/
Phil H. (Guest)
on 2006-06-16 03:46
(Received via mailing list)
Pistos C. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> writes:

>> That impression is probably at the root of your errors here. ruby-talk
>> is a mailing list. It is *not* a webboard. ruby-forum.com is a
>> *gateway* to the mailing list.
>
> I think utter and blatant misconceptions such as these are good reason
> to augment and/or adjust the "please read" blurb for ruby-forum.com ...
> we apparently are not getting through.  :)

To be honest I wonder if some cause for misunderstanding isn't
inherent in the name "ruby-forum" itself. Technically it is a neat
piece of hackery--it's rather impressive that it can maintain the
illusion that the mailing list is a forum. Socially there is a huge
divide, as we've seen.

> Perhaps something along the lines of: "This forum is a gateway to a
> mailing list; it is NOT a forum on its own.  All normal mailing list
> etiquette and standards apply."

I'm just thinking out loud here, but the fact that these repeated
explanations haven't gotten the point across makes me think that if
people see a web site titled "ruby-forum.com", the vast majority are
going to treat it like a forum. Perhaps if it was renamed to something
like "ruby-gateway.com" or the like we'd fare better.

-Phil H.
http://technomancy.us
Tom W. (Guest)
on 2006-06-16 04:05
(Received via mailing list)
Phil H. wrote:
> To be honest I wonder if some cause for misunderstanding isn't
> inherent in the name "ruby-forum" itself. Technically it is a neat
> piece of hackery--it's rather impressive that it can maintain the
> illusion that the mailing list is a forum. Socially there is a huge
> divide, as we've seen.
I think that rather than it being a problem of warnings or naming, it is
a problem of context. You behave a specific way when using a mailing
list versus a web forum. If you're in the context of a web forum, it's
going to be very difficult to behave in a mailing list fashion. Hence
the unquoted, pithy, and sometimes rude emails we see here on ruby-talk
that originated from the forum. I stay away from the forum because
despite knowing that it's a gateway to a mailing list, I still have a
very strong urge to use it like a forum. Context is a very powerful
persuader.

The solution? Change the context of the website to look/feel more like a
mailing list.
Pistos C. (Guest)
on 2006-06-16 22:50
Tom W. wrote:
> The solution? Change the context of the website to look/feel more like a
> mailing list.

Hmm... fair enough, but how could Andreas approach this?  One post per
page, with threads shown in tree form only?

At first glance, the only significant difference is the lack of or need
for sufficient quoting.  Otherwise, "quality standards" [can] apply just
as equally to mailing lists as to forums, IMO.

Pistos
James B. (Guest)
on 2006-06-17 01:43
(Received via mailing list)
Pistos C. wrote:
> Tom W. wrote:
>
>>The solution? Change the context of the website to look/feel more like a
>>mailing list.
>
>
> Hmm... fair enough, but how could Andreas approach this?  One post per
> page, with threads shown in tree form only?

Or replace the current page with one that has instructions on
subscribing to ruby-talk.

:)


I believe the intent behind ruby-forum.com was to offer something that
*wasn't* like a mailing list.     Which, in turn, brings non-list
behavior.


--
James B.

"I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's;
I will not reason and compare; my business is to create."
  - William Blake
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