Forum: Ruby on Rails [ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web Development with Rails

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Dave T. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 20:59
(Received via mailing list)
ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
===========================================================

http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/


Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of the
book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more than 500
fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100 contributors." Who
are we to disagree?

To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we're delighted to announce
the second edition of Agile Web D. with Rails. This is a
major update to the original, and we're releasing it as a beta book.

So far, we've rewritten the Depot application chapters.  They now
illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax support
and "has_many :through". We've lost the SQL in favor of migrations,
and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake tasks, keeps its
sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping things
that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing chapter
supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and illustrates
the new integration testing framework.

Over the coming months, we'll be updating the rest of the book.  The
Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0 chapter
will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
illustrate all we've learned about writing Rails applications in the
last year.

All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
chapters and largely rewritten old ones.

Today, we're releasing this new edition as a beta book. As with all
our beta books, you'll be able to download updates as we add new
content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to download
changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will be
finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.

However, we're doing this beta book slightly differently to our
other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it becomes
available, we're instead releasing a hybrid that mixes the new
content with that of the original, first edition. That way you'll be
able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets updated
over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header are
from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
header.

 From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you'll be getting
the beta book version. If you want the paper book, you'll have the
choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second edition
that will ship when it's ready.

If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
to the beta book. We'll be sending you instructions by email over
the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you'd be
amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)

Visit the book's page at http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes for
yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link to see how the
process works.

We're really excited to be able to offer the most up-to-date
information on the amazing Rails framework. If you're a Rails
developer, we think you'll find this book an invaluable companion.


Regards



Dave T.
Tom M. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:00
(Received via mailing list)
Great news!

I'll be ordering a new copy today.

Thanks, Dave!

--
-- Tom M.
Chris T (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:00
(Received via mailing list)
That's great news, but I do think there should be a discount for those
who have already bought the first edition in book form.
Giles B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:00
(Received via mailing list)
This is very good news.

Can I voice a request?

In "Getting Real," the 37Signals guys advocate that you code the
interface first.

In my personal copy of "Agile Web D. with Rails," I scrawled
a note to that effect -- something like "start here!! design from
templates!!!" -- in the chapter on Active V.. This was before I ever
saw "Getting Real."

I can't remember how I figured it out.

I do remember it took a lot of thinking.

I've been making web apps for about a decade. For some reason, I don't
even remember how, I pulled that insight out of the design, and saw it
validated later in "Getting Real."

A lot of people who are getting into Rails haven't been making web
apps for a decade, and a lot of people won't read "Getting Real."
(Everybody should, but not everybody will.)

Consequently you can look at me figuring this out and realize that a
lot of other people won't necessarily have the same insight.

The framework was developed in the context of design-first coding, and
consequently is very well-suited to design-first coding. I think if
you encourage newbies to use a design-first approach, it'll soften the
learning curve for them, and I also think that if you encourage
experts to use a design-first approach, they'll produce better work.

My request is that you re-order the chapters, placing the chapter on
Active V. first, the chapter on Active Controller second, and the
chapter on Active Record last.

--
Giles B.
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Jim G. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:00
(Received via mailing list)
I'm new to the list and ruby/rails and going through Agile Web
Development with Rails
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask, but I can't seem to get
past an error in the development of Depot with my add_to_cart method.
I'm getting  the error "undefined local variable or method
'product_id' for #<Cart......."

I've compared to the provided source code and I have everything
correct as far as I can tell.
Can someone point me in the right direction to solve this?

Thanks!

-Jim
Conrad T. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:00
(Received via mailing list)
Hey Jim, you should reference the errata for the section that section of
the
book.  Thus, you can find the errata in the following location:

http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails2/errata

Peace,

-Conrad
Dave T. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:00
(Received via mailing list)
On May 2, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Conrad T. wrote:

> Hey Jim, you should reference the errata for the section that
> section of the book.  Thus, you can find the errata in the
> following location:
>
> http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails2/errata


If it's the second edition, or


> http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails/errata

for the first.

Dave
Brian Chamberlain (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:00
(Received via mailing list)
Try restarting your rails server. I vaguely remember running into a
problem
like this myself and I think a restart fixed it. I believe it had
something
to do with the server holding onto a cached model of the Cart class
after I
had made some changes to it...or something like that.

-Brian
Jim G. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:00
(Received via mailing list)
My apologies. I should have mentioned that I'm using the first
edition, and that the errata is a bit of a pain to search through.

I've tried restarting the server, clearing cookies, everything
mentioned in the errata as far as I can tell.

I can add to the cart, but as soon as I add a second item (either of
the same product id or new product id) I get an error.
I'll gather my specific error and post that...

Thanks for the help!
Joseph K. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:01
(Received via mailing list)
I'll second the request for a discount on the second edition for first
edition buyers (for those that bought from the pragmatic store, it would
be
hard to track who bought the book from other sources).  Yes, the new
edition
has substantial improvements, and I fully believe in supporting all the
very
hard work that has gone into this, but I would have a hard time paying
the
full price for the new book less than six months from when I purchased
it.....
Larry W. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:01
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/2/06, Joseph K. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> I'll second the request for a discount on the second edition for first
> edition buyers (for those that bought from the pragmatic store.....   I
> would have a hard time paying the full price for the new book less than six
> months from when I purchased it.....
>
> ditto.

I'd be much more likely to buy a different rails book than to pay full
price
for an update of this one - even though I was very pleased with the
first
edition.
John T. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:01
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/2/06, Joseph K. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> I'll second the request for a discount on the second edition for first
> edition buyers (for those that bought from the pragmatic store, it would be
> hard to track who bought the book from other sources).  Yes, the new edition
> has substantial improvements, and I fully believe in supporting all the very
> hard work that has gone into this, but I would have a hard time paying the
> full price for the new book less than six months from when I purchased
> it.....

I agree. Short of ripping the cover off my copy, which I purchased at
the local Barnes & Nobel, I don't know how they'd give a discount for
the first version.

I'll probably just end up getting the PDF only, so as to not spend
another $50 or so on another copy. Just can't curl up on the couch as
much...
Scott B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:06
(Received via mailing list)
On May 2, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Chris T wrote:

> That's great news, but I do think there should be a discount for
> those who have already bought the first edition in book form.

If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
comes out.  If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD
(or whatever) is the standard.  If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not
get a discount when the 4GHz comes out.  If I buy a 15" macbook pro,
I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same
price!  Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new
edition of a book comes out.  New happens, be grateful there *is* a
second edition, and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up
to date with the fast pace of Rails.  It's $23, not the $2300 or
$23000 we get shafted on every year on the afore mentioned products.

Everyone, bow your heads and pretend to be serious.

-s
Brian H. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:06
(Received via mailing list)
On May 3, 2006, at 12:08 AM, Scott B. wrote:
> products.
Well said!

+1

-Brian
Conrad T. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:06
(Received via mailing list)
Hey, I second what Scott said.  Furthermore, I'm supporting the
efforts of the authors who are keeping this gem, 'Agile Web
Development with Rails', up to date by purchasing it.  People on this
list say that there's not enough documentation.  Guess what?  Here's
some documentation that happens to be in the form of a book.  What
would you do if this book wasn't updated?  You would have to rely upon
getting all that valuable information from the internet.  I don't know
about you but I like having a desk reference that I can refer to time
and time again.  When I go into a bookstore, I don't see many books on
Ruby and/Rails but the few that I do see are simply execellent.  I
couldn't and wouldn't say that about the other languages as a whole
eventhough they dominate the bookshelves.  In short, please support
the efforts of the authors if you can to make sure that we see
continued development of Ruby and Rails texts.

Peace,

-Conrad
Mark Reginald J. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:07
(Received via mailing list)
Scott B. wrote:
> book comes out.  New happens, be grateful there *is* a  second edition,
In the case of the PDF version I don't think they're valid analogies.
For a PDF book the cost of reproducing and delivering the goods is tiny
fraction of the development costs.  A better analogy would be software,
for which upgrade discounts are usually offered.

> and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up  to date with the
> fast pace of Rails.  It's $23, not the $2300 or  $23000 we get shafted
> on every year on the afore mentioned products.

I found the First Edition great value for money.  It saved me a great
deal of time by bootstrapping my Ruby and Rails knowledge, and has
been a very useful reference to the framework.  However I would only
buy the full-priced PDF of the Second Edition in recognition of
this value I received from the First Edition.  I could not justify
it in relative terms for the new content, particularly now that I
can learn from rawer sources.

But you're right -- $23 is not much in absolute terms. The update would
only have to save you a small amount of time before it payed for itself.

--
We develop, watch us RoR, in numbers too big to ignore.
Gregory S. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:07
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 12:08:38AM -0400, Scott B. wrote:
}
} On May 2, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Chris T wrote:
}
} >That's great news, but I do think there should be a discount for
} >those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
}
} If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
} comes out.

I was actually more convinced that the new edition was worth the full
price
before you said that. As a matter of fact, many car companies offer
"loyalty" incentives where if you already own that make of car, you get
a
discount on your next one. Furthermore, almost every car dealership
accepts
tradeins of previous models for a discount on your new car.

} If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD
} (or whatever) is the standard.  If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not
} get a discount when the 4GHz comes out.  If I buy a 15" macbook pro,
} I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same
} price!  Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new
} edition of a book comes out.

There's a reasonable argument for both sides. It is ultimately up to the
publishers. We'll buy it, or not, based on our needs and its price.

} New happens, be grateful there *is* a  second edition, and that Dave
is
} busting his hump to keep the book up  to date with the fast pace of
} Rails.  It's $23, not the $2300 or  $23000 we get shafted on every
year
} on the afore mentioned products.
}
} Everyone, bow your heads and pretend to be serious.

*snicker* yessir

} -s
--Greg

} _______________________________________________
} Rails mailing list
} removed_email_address@domain.invalid
} http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
}
Derrick S. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:07
(Received via mailing list)
> I was actually more convinced that the new edition was worth the
> full price
> before you said that. As a matter of fact, many car companies offer
> "loyalty" incentives where if you already own that make of car, you
> get a
> discount on your next one. Furthermore, almost every car dealership
> accepts
> tradeins of previous models for a discount on your new car.

Actually, it's not a discount.  The dealer buys your old car, and you
use the proceeds to help pay for the new car.

How about this:  Sell your first edition on eBay, and use the
proceeds (which, as in the case of a used car, will be depreciated)
to help pay for the second edition.  There is definitely a market for
used books ... just look for a poor college student!

-Derrick S.
John-Mason P. Shackelford (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:07
(Received via mailing list)
I've been surprised by the response to this announcement on both this
list and ruby-talk. As a professional having the best tools available
at my disposal is part of what allows me to deliver great value for my
customer. The information provided in Prag books easily saves me
countless hours of searching the net, reading docs and source, trial
and error, etc. If they didn't, I wouldn't buy them. I have never
bought a Prag book that didn't pay many returns in terms of my own
productivity and effectiveness and quite frankly these books would do
so at many times their price.

In the case of Rails, not only is the Prag book good--it is way out in
front. Other publishers are still working on getting their first ed.
in print (though some have PDFs available) and we've had the first
edition (in some form) over a year. That year was well worth the $50
and I expect the next to be as well.

I suspect that most on the list are of the same mind, but 'discount '
is sort of an involuntary reaction that can be difficult to suppress,
but since I do not want my customers to respond to my work this way, I
think it worth suppressing when I am the customer.
Chris T (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:07
(Received via mailing list)
Derrick S. wrote:
> use the proceeds to help pay for the new car.
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
I agree the new car trade-in is not a discount, but the software analogy
holds up. Also it's not uncommon for companies to reward past purchasers
with such a discount (call it a loyalty discount, or whatever) a) as a
thank you, and b) because it gives the customer a warm fuzzy feeling and
thus ties them emotionally to the company/brand (increasing likelihood
of further purchases).

As for me, I'll prob buy the PDF (as a prev poster said, $23 is not a
huge amount in absolute terms, and the first edition was an excellent
book), but prob won't feel much of that warm fuzzy valued customer
feeling when paying for it. Just my $0.02
Jim G. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:07
(Received via mailing list)
I think this is more of a function of what some people have called
'version fatigue'
When Rails changes drastically and quickly, its a good and bad thing.
Likewise with the documentation. Its the same thing that makes people
say "I'm not going to buy a new computer because it will be obsolete
in 2 months"

I don't see this as much of a problem, but if the next version comes
out just as quickly, it wouldn't be surprising at all if even more
people are annoyed. Some people, like myself, are still learning this
stuff, and personally I'm a bit frustrated that I need to get a new
book (or PDF) to stay on top of the latest stuff.

I haven't been complaining and asking for a discount, but it would be
nice (although impossible to track my purchase). Still, I'm glad to
see that the development community is so active that the
documentation is being made so quickly.
Kevin M. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:07
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:07:18AM -0400, Jim G. wrote:

> I don't see this as much of a problem, but if the next version comes
> out just as quickly, it wouldn't be surprising at all if even more
> people are annoyed. Some people, like myself, are still learning this
> stuff, and personally I'm a bit frustrated that I need to get a new
> book (or PDF) to stay on top of the latest stuff.

I'm a bit torn on this issue myself.  I bought the paper version of the
first edition and will most likely buy a paper version of the second
edition, weather offered a discount or not.  In real life I'm a
mainframe
operator.  The web development work I do is as a hobby.  My hobby budget
is
extremely limited.  I would love to buy the bundle and get the new PDF
now
and the paper version later, but that would further stretch my
practically
non-existant budget.  If I have to choose between PDF and paper I'll
take
paper every time.  I like real books.  The few PDF only books I've
bought in
the past I ended up printing out and sticking in a binder, which
increases
my overall cost of PDF books.  I have to wonder how many versions of
Rails
are going to come out between now and the time the new paper edition of
the
book comes out.  If the second edition is obsolete before it hits the
bookshelves I might not buy it after all.


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
Kenneth L. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:08
(Received via mailing list)
I'll definitely pick up a new copy.  Especially since I haven't seen
my Agile book since I loaned it out :)
PJ Hyett (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:08
(Received via mailing list)
If Rails hasn't made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
edition came out, don't bother buying the second edition.

Sincerely,
PJ Hyett
http://pjhyett.com
Pau Garcia i Quiles (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:14
(Received via mailing list)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 22:33, Mark Reginald J. wrote:

First of all, I will be buying AWDWR2 very soon (PDF). I also purchased
AWDWR,
just as it was released.

I think all this discussion is due to a slightly bad strategy by the
PragProgs. Should they have provided a mere 10% discount on the PDF for
owners of the first edition (either paper or PDF), everybody would be
happy
and every 1st-ed purchaser would be purchasing the 2nd-ed. By not
providing
this tiny discount, there are some discontent people who would be buying
whatever book on Rails except AWDWR2.

There was somebody asking why would someone buy the book at Amazon
rather than
at pragmaticprogrammers.com. Well, the answer is easy: Amazon discounts
heavily on the book and shipping rates are lower. It's way more
cost-efficient to buy the paper book at Amazon, then buy the PDF at the
(60%)
discounted rate for paper-owners (it's even cheaper than buying only the
paper book at pragmaticprogrammers.com). If I were the PragProgs, I
would
only sell the PDF at a discounted rate to those people who bought the
dead-tree book at pragmaticprogrammers.com. Of course, buying the combo
through pragmaticprogrammers.com has the advange of having the beta PDF
since
day one.


> > Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new  edition of a
>
> I found the First Edition great value for money.  It saved me a great
> deal of time by bootstrapping my Ruby and Rails knowledge, and has
> been a very useful reference to the framework.  However I would only
> buy the full-priced PDF of the Second Edition in recognition of
> this value I received from the First Edition.  I could not justify
> it in relative terms for the new content, particularly now that I
> can learn from rawer sources.
>
> But you're right -- $23 is not much in absolute terms. The update would
> only have to save you a small amount of time before it payed for itself.

- --
Pau Garcia i Quiles
http://www.elpauer.org
(Due to the amount of work, I usually need 10 days to answer)
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Scott B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:23
(Received via mailing list)
On May 3, 2006, at 12:45 PM, PJ Hyett wrote:

> If Rails hasn't made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
> edition came out, don't bother buying the second edition.
>
> Sincerely,
> PJ Hyett
> http://pjhyett.com

This is the best response yet, I love it.

-Scott
Raymond B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 21:51
(Received via mailing list)
I would gladly subscribe to this book for annual updates!!!

One thing I'd love to see, though, is the color bars removed from the
top/bottom of the PDF. It's a massive waste of ink when printing them
out, and I notice they're not in the printed version. Any chance of
removing those from your PDFs?
Gregory S. (Guest)
on 2006-05-03 22:37
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 09:45:09AM -0700, PJ Hyett wrote:
} If Rails hasn't made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
} edition came out, don't bother buying the second edition.

Hm. Rails got me a new, higher paying job. I guess I should buy the new
version. That's pretty convincing.

} Sincerely,
} PJ Hyett
--Greg
Ajai Khattri (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 00:13
(Received via mailing list)
Scott B. wrote:
> not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same
> price!  Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new edition
> of a book comes out.  New happens, be grateful there *is* a second
> edition, and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up to date
> with the fast pace of Rails.  It's $23, not the $2300 or $23000 we get
> shafted on every year on the afore mentioned products.

Not all of these are good analogies.

If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I would
be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife '06) from Apple for the
cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free" software updates to MacOS X.
While I agree that an upgrade for the book might not be workable, at
least the PDF should be easily upgradeable. I bought the Rails book
recently (in fact, I haven't finished reading it all the way through!)
but I might have waited if I had know a new version was nearing
publication.

How do I upgrade my PDF copy?
Scott B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 00:22
(Received via mailing list)
On May 3, 2006, at 4:08 PM, Ajai Khattri wrote:

>> If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007
>>
>
> Not all of these are good analogies.
>

Who cares?  Analogies are approximations, and each of the ones I gave
are approximately accurate.

> If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I
> would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife '06) from
> Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free" software
> updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book
> might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily
> upgradeable. I bought the Rails book recently (in fact, I haven't
> finished reading it all the way through!) but I might have waited
> if I had know a new version was nearing publication.

And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you
get a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping.  The "free"
software updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for whatever
cracked out scheme they use to define those) of osx.  My ibook came
with 10.3.x, I had to buy 10.4, no discount.

-Scott
Louis Erickson (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 00:25
(Received via mailing list)
I, too, bought it recently.  The paper book came less than a week ago,
and
it may be that I never remove the shrink wrap.

<snipped analogies of various relevance>

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Ajai Khattri wrote:

> How do I upgrade my PDF copy?

>From the announcement Mr. Thomas posted:

> If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
> 2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
> to the beta book. We'll be sending you instructions by email over
> the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
> whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you'd be
> amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)

I've already gotten my instructions on how to download the beta book.
(I
did have to fish it out of my spam-trap.  It rarely gets something
wrong,
but this one it did mistakenly catch.)

It does not say if this beta will be upgraded to the full release.  If
not, I'll be ordering one.  I'll likely order the paper one anyway,
because I like books.  (And I like ordering things direct, so the
authors
get more of the money.)

New editions come out.  This is bad timing for those of us who just
bought
them.  A bummer, but it happens.  Good timing happens, too.

--
Louis Erickson - removed_email_address@domain.invalid - 
http://www.rdwarf.com/~wwonko/

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
		-- Frank Zappa
Kerry B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 00:41
(Received via mailing list)
On 3 May 2006, at 2:17 pm, Derrick S. wrote:

>
> How about this:  Sell your first edition on eBay, and use the
> proceeds (which, as in the case of a used car, will be depreciated)
> to help pay for the second edition.

I'm tempted to sell my two-month-old copy on eBay before people who
only look at Amazon notice that there's a new edition on the way, and
live with just having the PDF version of the second edition until the
print version comes out.

Kerry
Ajai Khattri (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 00:54
(Received via mailing list)
Scott B. wrote:

> Who cares?  Analogies are approximations, and each of the ones I gave
> are approximately accurate.
>
Judging from this thread, some of us do...

> And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you get
> a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping.  The "free" software
> updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for whatever cracked out
> scheme they use to define those) of osx.  My ibook came with 10.3.x, I
> had to buy 10.4, no discount.

Again, PDFs are very similar to software.
Billegal (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 00:55
> I'm tempted to sell my two-month-old copy on eBay before people who
> only look at Amazon notice that there's a new edition on the way, and
> live with just having the PDF version of the second edition until the
> print version comes out.

The new paper edition won't be out for some time.  The first edition was
outdated the day Rails 1.1 was released, if not earlier.

I've already bought version 2 because the changes are so dramatic.  It
paid for itself in about 15 minutes.  Heck, download the free demo
chapters they've posted and I think most will agree it's a major
rewrite.

I'm glad they didn't wait and milk version 1 until it died of old age.
I hate tech books that are out of date and I have to google the new
info. If we don't pay for the new version, we decrease the incentive to
have new versions come out. I'd prefer that the authors have a complete
incentive to keep us current.  I don't have time to pull all this
together.
Charles M. Gerungan (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 02:32
(Received via mailing list)
On 3-mei-2006, at 22:53, Ajai Khattri wrote:

>> And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you
>> get a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping.  The "free"
>> software updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for whatever
>> cracked out scheme they use to define those) of osx.  My ibook
>> came with 10.3.x, I had to buy 10.4, no discount.
>
> Again, PDFs are very similar to software.

So you agree with Scott then? No discount on the next iteration of
Mac OS X and the new iteration of Railsaxe?

I do.

--
Regards, Charles.
Ajai Khattri (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 02:41
(Received via mailing list)
Charles M. Gerungan wrote:
> So you agree with Scott then? No discount on the next iteration of Mac
> OS X and the new iteration of Railsaxe?

I will re-iterate what I said earlier: buying a Mac Mini so close to the
release of the next one meant I was entitled to certain upgrades of the
software (e.g. replacement of iLife with the completely new iLife '06)
for the price of shipping a CDROM. There ought to be some sort of
discount upgrade for someone that has just recently bought the PDF
version of the book
David Heinemeier H. (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 03:51
(Received via mailing list)
> I will re-iterate what I said earlier: buying a Mac Mini so close to the
> release of the next one meant I was entitled to certain upgrades of the
> software (e.g. replacement of iLife with the completely new iLife '06)
> for the price of shipping a CDROM. There ought to be some sort of
> discount upgrade for someone that has just recently bought the PDF
> version of the book

There is. If you bought the PDF within the past month (since April
1st), you get the new one for free.
--
David Heinemeier H.
http://www.loudthinking.com -- Broadcasting Brain
http://www.basecamphq.com   -- Online project management
http://www.backpackit.com   -- Personal information manager
http://www.rubyonrails.com  -- Web-application framework
Dave T. (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 17:24
(Received via mailing list)
On May 3, 2006, at 3:08 PM, Ajai Khattri wrote:

> If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I
> would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife '06) from
> Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free" software
> updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book
> might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily upgradeable.


And tis is exactly what we modeled our approach on.

If you bought a PDF within a month of the announcement, we gave you a
complementary upgrade.

If you buy a PDF, you get free revisions for the life of that edition.

When a new edition comes along, it's a cost item.

Exactly as it is for Apple software.
Chris J. (Guest)
on 2006-05-04 22:48
Puh-leaz! Is $23.50 *really* too expensive, considering the entire
framework, database, etc. are FREE?!!!

I was just thinking about the cost of my MS products (higher ed
discount):
- VS.NET 2005 = $203
- SQL Server = ~$4800 for 2 proc license
- Win2K3 = $109

I should now start demanding free books from MS. After all, if a
customer can drop 5+ grand on their software (educational discount, no
less), aren't I entitled to a few free books?

To all the whiners: think about how much time RoR has saved you and the
fun ride it's been. Isn't THAT worth AT LEAST $23.50? I would expect
this kind of childish behavior in the commercial world, but considering
the entire software stack is FREE, what on G~d's green earth are you
complaining about? Think about how many features you could have added to
your app instead of debating the comparisons of books vs. cars vs. Macs.

Viva La Rails!
-Chris
Jay L. (Guest)
on 2006-05-05 04:32
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, 3 May 2006 16:22:19 -0400, Scott B. wrote:

>> Not all of these are good analogies.
>>
>
> Who cares?  Analogies are approximations, and each of the ones I gave
> are approximately accurate.

OK.  Let me try.

Let's say I buy a pound of pickled herring from Schmendrick's Deli on
July
1st.  Now, I use two cups of that herring in a salad that I make on July
2nd.  I eat half of that salad the same day, but freeze the rest.

Meanwhile, on the 7th, I buy some gefilte fish - but not from
Schmendrick's, because his gefilte, at $2.69 a pound, is too mealy.
Morty's, which is only 20 minutes by foot from Schmendrick's, has
gefilte
you could die for, and only costs 14 cents more per pound - but he is
using
Canadian dollars.

Now, I combine half a cubit of the leftover herring with three lumps of
gefilte fish.   I serve it for lunch, and who should show up to lunch
but
Schmendrick himself?  Only he can't eat the herring - it gives him gas.
So
instead he eats some gefilte fish.  Do I charge him?

The original herring, of course, is Rails 1.0, and I think the rest is
obvious.

Jay L.
Sebastian F. (Guest)
on 2006-05-05 05:18
(Received via mailing list)
On May 4, 2006, at 7:29 PM, Jay L. wrote:

> [snip: awesome analogy involving gefilte fish, pickled herring and
> gastrointestinal issues ]

LOL. it's just amazing how you can always find a fittingly obvious
kick-ass parable in Jewish folklore. I think you have silenced the
critics.

sebastian
Gene K. (Guest)
on 2006-05-05 21:40
Dave T. wrote:
> On May 3, 2006, at 3:08 PM, Ajai Khattri wrote:
>
>> If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I
>> would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife '06) from
>> Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free" software
>> updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book
>> might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily upgradeable.
>
>
> And tis is exactly what we modeled our approach on.
>
> If you bought a PDF within a month of the announcement, we gave you a
> complementary upgrade.
>
> If you buy a PDF, you get free revisions for the life of that edition.
>
> When a new edition comes along, it's a cost item.
>
> Exactly as it is for Apple software.

I'm a customer thinking about how a publisher's pricing policy should
be; that's my caveat.

What aspects of the pricing policy will cause prospective customers not
to buy the current product or similar future products?
What aspects of the pricing policy will cause the lost of goodwill even
from those who buy the current products because they are tied to it
(it's a 2nd edition) but may want to remember the current experience?

It's all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1 shortly
before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
edition. Companies don't want that cash flow gap. Remember the Osborne
Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
AWDwR1?

Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the interest
in the product.

.02
Brian H. (Guest)
on 2006-05-05 22:31
(Received via mailing list)
I would imagine that if Dave and co. over there wanted to, they could
query
their order system to find out how many folks bought revision one and
then
bought revision two. They could then determine from that information if
this
is a strategy they want to try again when another revision comes out.

I think they will, because it makes good business sense. I'll be
purchasing
my copy today because it has things that will make me more money.

The main reason I think that this will work though, is that we trust the
authors. We trust them not to steer us wrong and to guide us.  With the
first edition, we learned a lot of good techniques.  Now, I could go get
a
book from another author that covers Rails 1.1, RJS, and some other
really
funky stuff, but I won't because I can get it in a revised edition from
authors I know.

Plus, this book coming out is perfect for me, as I occasionally train
developers. It was getting harder to talk about Migrations as a good
practice when they're not in the "bible".

Just my .02
Dave T. (Guest)
on 2006-05-05 22:47
(Received via mailing list)
On May 5, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Gene K. wrote:

> are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if
> happy
> they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
> product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the
> interest
> in the product.


I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
doing the right thing by you all.

Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.

This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.

I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.


Dave
François M. (Guest)
on 2006-05-05 23:03
(Received via mailing list)
Thanks, Dave, for updating the Agile book. It's really needed as a lot
has
improved with Rails since the first edition (which I bought from
PragProg
and found very useful). In my opinion, you're perfectly right in saying
that
you're doing a favor to the community by updating the book even though
you
could ride longer on the sales of the first edition. And the $2 or $5 or
whatever that people might have saved with a discount doesn't really
make
any difference to them in the overall scheme of things. But people
aren't
always swayed by reason, and what matters is their perception of
reality,
not reality itself. I think that a small discount (maybe 10%) would have
been a good marketing idea simply because it caters to people's
perception
and makes people feel good whether or not they actually need the
discount or
would have bought it anyway. In any case, I'm sure the second edition
will
sell just fine, and those who complain will get over it and upgrade, so
no
worries :-).
pat eyler (Guest)
on 2006-05-05 23:03
(Received via mailing list)
I talk a lot about building the Ruby community, and try to put in the
effort to back up my words, but in this case, I think I've fallen down
on the job.

On 5/5/06, Dave T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,

It certainly does.  It produces better books, builds the sense of
community
and gets the book into the hands of users faster.

> and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
> considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
> doing the right thing by you all.
>
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
> this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
> the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.

I think this was a tremendous move on your part.  Not only did you
insulate
people from buying a soon to be obsoleted book for a considerable period
of time (I can't imagine another publisher doing that), but you are
again
getting needed information into the community earlier than otherwise
possible.
I've been shocked that you guys have taken such a beating over this.

>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
>
> I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
>

Though I don't do much (if anything) with Rails, I'm really excited to
see
on the horizon what promises to be another great book for the Ruby and
Rails
community.

Thanks!

>
> Dave


--
-pate
Pat M. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 00:11
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/5/06, Dave T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> >
> I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
>
> Rails mailing list
> removed_email_address@domain.invalid
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

I'm one of the people to initially say it'd be nice to get some kind
of discount.

I also ordered the combo pack yesterday :)

Bottom line, you guys consistently produce the highest quality books
of any publisher I've encountered.  Your beta program is spectacular -
we want/need this info NOW, and even though you're probably taking a
bit of a loss by releasing the book, you're willing to give it to us
now.

You've provided a tremendous service to the Ruby and Rails community.
Whatever money you might lose by releasing this beta book, I'm sure
you'll gain plenty more because customers will be willing to return to
you.  As I mentioned, I own 5 prag books myself.

Pat
Giles B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 00:23
(Received via mailing list)
> the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
>
> I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.

Honestly Dave, I love the Prag. Bookshelf, I'm gradually collecting
the whole damn thing, and for what it's worth, I think the community's
response to your news is utterly appalling.

I think you underestimated the value of what you had to sell,
underpriced it, and are now seeing it undervalued in the marketplace.

I'd say just publish v2 as an update-only edition, and skip discounts
entirely.

--
Giles B.
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Stephen B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 00:30
(Received via mailing list)
I think the beta book program is just fantastic and the time I save
by getting access to your work is worth SO much more than the cost of
what you are selling that the $50 I spent on the combopack is
practically irrelevant.

This list has many many people and what normally generates the will
to post is a scratch -- a problem of some sorts. You can't make
simple generalizations from he distributions of opinion in a comment
thread. That doesn't mean that you should ignore the comments either
however.

Ultimately the sales you get will help inform your business
decisions. If there are enough people like me your sales will prove
you made the right decisions.

I don't expect this to be true but if Rails changes and expands as
much in the next year as it has in the last year I'll happily buy
more of your work next year.
Kerry B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 01:35
(Received via mailing list)
On 5 May 2006, at 7:45 pm, Dave T. wrote:

> generating so much apparent heartache.
>
> I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.

And I'm sure a lot of us are. I'm almost certainly going to buy the
beta of the second edition, even though I haven't finished reading
the original yet (I'm new to rails, and so far it's just for fun,
until I can find an excuse to start sneaking it in at work instead of
doing everything in Java). Whatever you do, there'll always be some
people who aren't happy.

Keep up the good work -- from where I'm looking, the Pragmatic
bookshelf is on track to become the next O'Reilly.

Kerry
Greg D. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 01:38
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/5/06, Dave T. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.

I'm excited for the book.  It's a great thing to be smart enough to
write books.  You're the man, etc..  :)

But.. being a 1st edition buyer of both the print and the PDF
versions, the 2nd edition, no matter how much new content has been
added, is still very much an 'upgrade' from my point of view as a
consumer.  I'm guessing you did not create all the content for the 2nd
edition from scratch.  At least a portion of the 1st edition was
reused, was it not?  Why would I want to pay for the same thing again?
 I apologize in advance if the book _is_ all 100% new content.
Personally I would go with a new/different name if that is the case.

It wouldn't be nearly as big a deal to me if the respective editions
were years apart.  If I had know a 2nd edition were to be printed I
probably would have waited.  I bought early and that's my own fault,
not yours.  But going forward it would be doubly bad if I let this
happen to my wallet again.  What if there's a 3rd edition coming for
Rails 1.2 or 1.3?  Do I wait or do I spend now for a book that could
easily be outdated (again) this time next year?

A 2nd edition discount for 1st edition buyers would easily sway my
opinion to go ahead with the purchase now, but since none is being
offered to my particular purchase date, I cannot.  It's likely I will
purchase the book at some point but will wait for a used version or
other such discounted sale.


--
Greg D.
Zend Certified Engineer
MySQL Core Certification
http://destiney.com/
Kerry B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 01:47
(Received via mailing list)
On 5 May 2006, at 10:35 pm, Greg D. wrote:

> It wouldn't be nearly as big a deal to me if the respective editions
> were years apart.

But then they'd be so far out of date as to be almost useless. I've
been burnt before by buying a book that hadn't been updated for the
version of the relevant technology that was current when I bought it
(and had been for some time), and because there had been a major API
change it was a total waste of money. I'd much rather at least have
the option of buying an up-to-date book more frequently (and the beta
PDF programme is even better).

If you want to leave it a couple of years, wait for the third or
fourth edition, but by then how much of your current book will still
be useful?

Kerry
Adam D. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 01:59
(Received via mailing list)
To me this is a lose lose situation from the arguments above.  If no
second
edition had come out everyone would be yelling "Agile Book is so out of
date
with respect to rails 1.1.2 !!".  Now that Dave has spent time to get it
up
to date with the fast pace changes of Rails, people are complaining "I
just
bought rev 1!!".

As said above we shoud be happy that Dave and the gang have bothered to
put
in the effort to give us all an up to date reference to work with.  The
only
reason the rev came so soon is b/c rails is moving so quickly right now.
The way I look at it is if you dont want the updated version you dont
have
to buy it, but dont complain about "lack of updated information" with
all
the new rails features.  Some books never release a second edition and
end
up becoming almost worthless.

Cheers for the hard work Dave, I bought the first book and it
jumpstarted my
rails projects, I  plan on buying the second edition.

adam
Sebastian F. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 01:59
(Received via mailing list)
On May 3, 2006, at 11:45 AM, PJ Hyett wrote:

> If Rails hasn't made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
> edition came out, don't bother buying the second edition.

This really should have been the last word in this discussion. Let's
try again.


Sebastian
Greg D. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 02:03
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/5/06, Kerry B. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> If you want to leave it a couple of years, wait for the third or
> fourth edition, but by then how much of your current book will still
> be useful?

It is not anyone's fault Rails is evolving so quickly, neither the
author or the readers.  Still, I cannot not pay full price for
'updated' content.

CDs, manuals, and packaging all cost money to make, just like books
cost money to print.  Meanwhile software companies sell discounted
upgrades all the time.


--
Greg D.
Zend Certified Engineer
MySQL Core Certification
http://destiney.com/
Deirdre Saoirse M. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 02:15
(Received via mailing list)
On May 5, 2006, at 11:45 AM, Dave T. wrote:

> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We
> knew this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good
> member of the community and go with the beta program despite the
> financial costs.

Hey, I'm excited about it. I'll get a 2nd edition too. :)

--
_Deirdre                                             http://deirdre.net
Tom M. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 04:02
(Received via mailing list)
On May 5, 2006, at 3:00 PM, Greg D. wrote:

> It is not anyone's fault Rails is evolving so quickly, neither the
> author or the readers.  Still, I cannot not pay full price for
> 'updated' content.

I assume the double negative is a typo. If so, WHY can't you pay full
price for updated content? I'm totally clear that you may choose not
to, but saying that you 'cannot' is likely overstated.

> CDs, manuals, and packaging all cost money to make, just like books
> cost money to print.  Meanwhile software companies sell discounted
> upgrades all the time.

It is none of your business what the production costs are. The only
question you need to ask yourself is whether or not the information
is worth the price you can buy it for.

If you want it, buy it. If you don't want it, don't buy it.

--
-- Tom M.
Justin F. (Guest)
on 2006-05-06 04:53
(Received via mailing list)
Dave T. wrote:

> I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community, and
> that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition considerably by
> preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're doing the right
> thing by you all.

The first edition hasn't done badly, and the only thing that *should* be
hurting its sales is the rate of change in Rails itself. AWDR was there
on the shelf at Waterstones in Kingston (Surrey) today, and I imagine
they'll keep selling it until there's a new paper edition.

Also, many sales of Rails Recipes will be due to the first edition of
AWDR becoming out of date. That's certainly why I bought the Rails
Recipes beta.

> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on an
> upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing us
> money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and with
> returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew this
> going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of the
> community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.

I can't find the post right now, but you have mentioned the possibility
of a discount for upgraders in the past (without committing to it). That
may have set expectations.

Maybe it's just me, but I interpret "cost" as something you have to pay,
as opposed to "reduction in profit". I appreciate that writing the
second edition is a cost, but you won't be alone in this market for
long...

I know that you believe in Rails and want to contribute to its success
by providing (and continuing to provide) the definitive book on the
subject. I'd prefer not to think about what you are doing in cashflow
terms - but if I do, I see that there are tricky decisions regarding
when to announce and release a new edition, in order to hold on to
market share.

> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating so
> much apparent heartache.

It is good. It was also good that the first edition of Pickaxe was free
to download. It's your book, and your choice.

> I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I thought
> folks would actually be excited.

I *am* excited, and I have bought the second edition PDF (to add to my
first edition PDF, plus two paper copies - I lost one, bought another,
then found the first again), paper copies of both Pickaxe editions, PDF
of the second edition of Pickaxe, Rails Recipes PDF, Enterprise
Integration with Ruby PDF, Pragmatic Ajax PDF, paper copies of the
Pragmatic Starter Kit books, and the Pragmatic Programmer.

I can afford this, but others (e.g. students and developers in poorer
countries) may find it difficult. That's not your problem - Rails should
have good, free, current tutorial and reference documentation.

(Remember when the JBoss team started charging for documentation?)

take care, and keep up the excellent work

   Justin
Ajai Khattri (Guest)
on 2006-05-07 05:01
(Received via mailing list)
Kerry B. wrote:
>
> And I'm sure a lot of us are. I'm almost certainly going to buy the
> beta of the second edition, even though I haven't finished reading the
> original yet
Im in the same boat - Im still working my way through the first
edition... ;-(
> Keep up the good work -- from where I'm looking, the Pragmatic
> bookshelf is on track to become the next O'Reilly.

Ah, but O'Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
Justin F. (Guest)
on 2006-05-07 05:25
(Received via mailing list)
Ajai Khattri wrote:
> Kerry B. wrote:
>> Keep up the good work -- from where I'm looking, the Pragmatic
>> bookshelf is on track to become the next O'Reilly.
>
> Ah, but O'Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
> http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
>
That looks exactly right... I didn't know, and there are quite a few
O'Reilly books I've bought more than one edtion of (I still have the
first edition of Java in a Nutshell!).

thanks

   Justin
Kerry B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-07 12:11
(Received via mailing list)
On 7 May 2006, at 1:59 am, Ajai Khattri wrote:

> Ah, but O'Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
> http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html

...as long as you live in the US.

Kerry
Kevin M. (Guest)
on 2006-05-07 20:27
(Received via mailing list)
On Sat, May 06, 2006 at 08:59:03PM -0400, Ajai Khattri wrote:

> Ah, but O'Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
> http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html

I always did like O'Reilly.  Oddly this is the first I've heard of their
upgrade policy.  Is the upgrade policy only good for true O'Reilly books
or
for any books purchased from O'Reilly?  I searched for Rails books on
the
O'Reilly site and it appears that AWDR can be purchased from O'Reilly.
The
book qualifies for free shipping and they even have a buy two books, get
one
free offer.  I will definitely keep O'Reilly in mind when expanding my
Rails
library.


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
Ajai Khattri (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 00:49
(Received via mailing list)
Kevin M. wrote:
>
> I always did like O'Reilly.  Oddly this is the first I've heard of their
> upgrade policy.  Is the upgrade policy only good for true O'Reilly books or
> for any books purchased from O'Reilly?
Dont know.
>   I searched for Rails books on the
> O'Reilly site and it appears that AWDR can be purchased from O'Reilly.
There is no official O'Reilly Rails book though one is slated for a July
release (along with a Ruby book too).
>   The
> book qualifies for free shipping and they even have a buy two books, get one
> free offer.  I will definitely keep O'Reilly in mind when expanding my Rails
> library.

Its no wonder they are popular.
Ajai Khattri (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 00:52
(Received via mailing list)
Justin F. wrote:
> That looks exactly right... I didn't know, and there are quite a few
> O'Reilly books I've bought more than one edtion of (I still have the
> first edition of Java in a Nutshell!).

I probably have more O'Reilly books (incl. multiple editions of several)
than anyone here :-)
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 04:54
(Received via mailing list)
Dave T. wrote:
>
> I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
> and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
> considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
> doing the right thing by you all.
IMHO you are doing the right thing by us all. Still, Pragmatic
Programmers should *not* have to apologize for being a for-profit
organization!

>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
I don't know who is getting heartaches or indigestion from this. I for
one am glad AWDR II is available -- I bought the PDF-only beta as soon
as I found it had been released.
>
> I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
I honestly don't think anyone on this list should be complaining about
anything associated with Pragmatic Programmers. You made a business
decision. The last time I looked that's the way our economy operates.

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

http://linuxcapacityplanning.com
Pat M. (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 05:09
(Received via mailing list)
On 5/7/06, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> Dave T. wrote:
> > I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> > thought folks would actually be excited.
> I honestly don't think anyone on this list should be complaining about
> anything associated with Pragmatic Programmers. You made a business
> decision. The last time I looked that's the way our economy operates.

Not to drag this off topic, but another element of our economy is
consumer opinion.  If consumers don't like the business decision, they
can speak out.  People might say, "Well if you don't want it then just
don't buy it," but that's only part of the equation.  We can choose to
vote with our wallets as well as explain why we're doing so.

I ended up buying the combo back.  Still, everyone has the right to
criticize the decision if they want to.

Pat
Mick S. (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 05:21
Dave T. wrote:
>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
>

Dave,

I have the first edition of AWDR - it is a fantastic book and my copy is
already becoming very well thumbed indeed. I have also bought into the
PDF beta programme, which is a brilliant idea and very worthwhile, and I
shall be grabbing a printed copy of the 2nd edition as soon as it hits
the shelves. I would have taken advantage of the combo offer, but
shipping charges make it more econonomical for me to buy AWDR II in the
UK.

Remember that some people will moan no matter what you do for them or
how hard you try - like any critics they are best ignored. Keep up the
good work, and my heartfelt thanks both to you and DHH.

Mick S.
Mick S. (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 05:23
P.S. How do you spell econonomical? :o
David M. (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 05:25
(Received via mailing list)
Guys,

Can we please lay this thread to rest?

Summary of responses so far:
- it costs too much
- no it doesn't

It's PAINFULLY clear there's dissent on this, and it's even more
painfully clear that no-one's about to change their mind if they've
already made a decision about whether to buy this book or not.

Anyone who hasn't yet made the decision now has ample info on which to
base their decision.  The PragProg guys also have ample input to let
them decide whether their pricing model is appropriate or not, and
will get more when they look at the sales figures for the 2 versions
going forward.

What exactly do any of us stand to gain by adding our 2c worth at this
point?

Regards

Dave M.
Pat L. (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 05:43
(Received via mailing list)
Hi,
I'm a big O'Reilly fan -- but I usually buy their books from amazon -
usually a bit cheaper and its easier for me...

What is the O'Reilly upgrade policy?

Cheers,
Pat
Ajai Khattri (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 05:43
(Received via mailing list)
David M. wrote:
> Summary of responses so far:
> - it costs too much
> - no it doesn't
That's a matter of personal opinion - you can't speak for everyone in
the whole community.

So dont.


--
Ajai Khattri (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 05:49
(Received via mailing list)
Pat L. wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm a big O'Reilly fan -- but I usually buy their books from amazon -
> usually a bit cheaper and its easier for me...
>
> What is the O'Reilly upgrade policy?

Its documented on the URL in that posting.



--
Giles B. (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 08:51
(Received via mailing list)
80 posts according to Gmail.

This isn't actually the worst waste of time I've seen in my life. It
isn't even the worst waste of time I've seen in my inbox this year.
This one music-related mailing list I used to be on actually got to
106 posts about whether or not you could lose weight by drinking your
own pee.

But honestly, 80 posts?

Yeesh!

--
Giles B.
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Gene K. (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 10:08
Dave T. wrote:

> I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.

Angst is good. It shows commitment. What's bad is unjustified sense of
entitlement. Let's face it, no one is entitled to anything here. The
offer to late buyers of AWDwR1 of free PDF copy ofADWwR2 is an act of
publisher goodwill. Perhaps motivated by the desire to avert a
potentially huge backlash if the late buyers were not to be given any
amelioration at all. But no matter the motivation.

<< the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock.

A promise to book copy buyers of free PDF copy of the beta second
edition at pre-announcement might have helped stave off the sudden
drying up of sales. This offer of course would have an effect on future
cash from the PDF version, but at least the expensive current hard copy
stock will move, and probably move faster. Maybe not. RoR enthusiasts
are a savvy breed; they know that six months into the release of the
book copy, it's just out of it and perhaps would not even run with the
latest RoR and the pre-announcement wouldn't have made much difference
anyway (I'm guessing here).

The problem here, as I see it, is the fast pace of change in RoR itself,
exacerbated by what I think is a premature book copy edition. Had there
been no book copy, the second PDF edition could come out within six
months, and compensations would be easy to settle, and no returns to
deal with. While RoR is still vigorously undergoing changes, a plain
vanilla text hard copy documentation is good enough (for me). After all,
it's a Dave T. book, and whether it is published by O'Reilly or
written on napkins, it is a Dave T. book.

.02



> On May 5, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Gene K. wrote:
>
>> are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if
>> happy
>> they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
>> product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the
>> interest
>> in the product.
>
>
> I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
> and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
> considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
> doing the right thing by you all.
>
> Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
> an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
> us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
> with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
> this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
> the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
>
> This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
> distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
> so much apparent heartache.
>
> I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
> thought folks would actually be excited.
>
>
> Dave
Nicolai R. (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 10:49
(Received via mailing list)
Ok, now save us some time and tell us whether or wether not we lose
weight
by purchaising AWDR2.
SB (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 14:24
(Received via mailing list)
Yeah, but we get rails for free right?

I'll be honest, I'm only getting the hang of rails so there's no
question that I need the Second edition.  This will be my 4th one
including David Black's "Ruby for Rails".  But I did buy the Rails
Recipes PDF + hard cover along with the ruby book (at full price since
overseas shipping kills any discount).

I'll probably buy the PDF + hard copy of Rails 2nd edition as well but
it does hurt my pockets badly being a student abroad.  The PDF feels a
bit expensive no matter how you cut it but the immediacy of info makes
it necessary.

This second edition is a godsend because the first edition is just too
out of date.  I appreciate the effort made by the authors to keep the
literature current in almost real time--rewriting a book must feel
like beating a dead horse for authors that have been there and done
that.

This book will be what introduces rails to the next batch of rails
developers.  The contribution of this will no doubt influence rails
development in the immediate future.

It's also coming hot on the heels of O'Reilly's first release on rails
too.  That speaks for itself.  Hopefully, by the time the third
edition comes out, I'll be well-versed in the source not to need it or
earn this money back many times over.


Just do me a favor and use this quote from Bill Gates in the second
edition because it is so appropriate and hilarious for the irony:

"Software is providing power, but software has got to provide
simplicity."

Bill Gates, 2006 International Consumer Electronics Show
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
Bakki K. (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 20:05
(Received via mailing list)
Unfortunately that gives you only 30% off list and discount bookstores
like bookpool.com give you routinely 33% - 50% off list  and you don't
pay sales tax either.

-bakki
Kevin M. (Guest)
on 2006-05-08 21:09
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 03:23:45AM +0200, Mick S. wrote:

> P.S. How do you spell econonomical? :o

Like many words I spell economical, if that was the word you were trying
for, with the help of:

http://www.dictionary.com


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
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