Forum: Ruby Using emacs on Apple's PowerBook

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Dae San H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-19 22:55
(Received via mailing list)
I apologize for the off topic post, but knowing that many ruby
programmers are emacs/PowerBook users, I don't think this is
completely irrelevant..

For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your
PowerBook?  I've been thinking about buying a powerbook for four
years now but didn't only because using emacs key bindings seems
extremely awkward on Apple's laptops.  On the lower left side of
powerbook, there is a 'fn' key which confuses my figures on the
correct positions of control/meta(option) keys.  On the lower right
side of powerbook, there is no control/meta keys due to the placement
of near useless arrow keys.

I actually had expected someone would build/sell a customized
PowerBook keyboards tailored for emacs users by now..  I am confused
since no other emacs users seem to be bothered by this.  I really
think Apple should at least provide an option of the replacement
keyboard for emacs PowerBook users.

With the introduction of MacBook Pro and near ubiquitousness of WiFi
connection, my desire for a laptop couldn't have been higher.  Can
anybody who share this dilemma comment on this?

For those of you who think I'm a total nut for expecting Apple to
solve my person problem, emacs key bindings have been supported in
all text widgets of Cocoa applications ever since Mac OS X came out
and it's only logical to expect their hardware to be designed in line
with their software features.

sorry for the rant,

daesan
Daniel H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-19 23:25
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 19, 2006, at 9:55 PM, Dae San H. wrote:

> For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your
> PowerBook?  I've been thinking about buying a powerbook for four
> years now but didn't only because using emacs key bindings seems
> extremely awkward on Apple's laptops.  On the lower left side of
> powerbook, there is a 'fn' key which confuses my figures on the
> correct positions of control/meta(option) keys.  On the lower right
> side of powerbook, there is no control/meta keys due to the
> placement of near useless arrow keys.

System Preferences -> Keyboard and Mouse -> Modifier Keys: Set caps
lock to control. Use option as your meta key (not command). I like
the arrow keys on my powerbook. ;)

-- Daniel
zuzu (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 00:05
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/19/06, Dae San H. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> I apologize for the off topic post, but knowing that many ruby
> programmers are emacs/PowerBook users, I don't think this is
> completely irrelevant..

http://aquamacs.org/

I bind meta to the cmd key, and suck up the unfortunate fact that
caps-lock is physically where ctrl should be.  The old TiBooks had
swappable keyboards, but those were dumped starting with the Aluminum
Powerbooks for the ostentatious feature of backlit keys.  Too bad a
3rd party market for alternative keyboards didn't happen before; then
again, too bad the TiBooks stuck with ADB rather than diving into USB
(which is also powered).

Apple does LOTS of, imho, stupid things.  (Let's start with no FW800
on the MacBook, and Firewire dropped from the Nano and Video iPod...
Let's continue with iTunes stopping receiving podcast subscriptions
because you haven't listened to them "recently" enough (and no
preference to disable this "feature")...  or what a clusterfuck the
Quicktime framework perpetually remains, so that everyone ostensibly
uses VideoLAN...  Oh yeah, and now they're marketing some kind of iPod
boombox, instead of... say... an HDTV+DVD ripping Tivo-killer and
dedicated QTSS server.  Oh, maybe we can start with something easier,
like maturing the Apache and ZeroConf (er, Rendezvous, er, I mean
Bonjour) integration so that end-users can EASILY publish web content
(like sharing files with friends) __over the internet__ in a one-click
manner; you know, kinda like Cobalt/Sun did with the Qube over a
decade ago!

Or, hell, just offer a laptop with more than 2GB of RAM, _please_!

Of course, asking Apple to do better is like asking the Ruby community
to pull EMACS out of its EmacsLisp funk and re-implement a complete
replacement written in Ruby instead.  (Because, we all love IRB;
RubEMACS is the next logical step.)



my .emacs includes:

;; Make the Cmd key the Meta key
(setq mac-command-modifier 'meta)

;; Merge Apple clipboard into Emacs killring
(setq x-select-enable-clipboard t)

;; One windowframe only for all buffers
(one-buffer-one-frame-mode 0)

;; Disable the toolbar
(tool-bar-mode 0)
Dae San H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 00:30
(Received via mailing list)
Actually, I'm not old enough of an emacs user to be accustomed to
caps-lock positioned control key.  But how do you live without right
control/meta keys?  Do you actually press 'caps-lock + a' with only
left fingers to move to the beginning of a line?

daesan
zuzu (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 01:12
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/19/06, Dae San H. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Actually, I'm not old enough of an emacs user to be accustomed to
> caps-lock positioned control key.  But how do you live without right
> control/meta keys?  Do you actually press 'caps-lock + a' with only
> left fingers to move to the beginning of a line?
>
> daesan

These days I only practice my "correct" control-key with my "Happy
Hacker" keyboard, which isn't often on my TiBook.  The caps-lock is a
"special" key, in hardware, and produces weird sticky problems when
software attempts to fake it; so I don't bother.

However, come to actually pause and think about it, I have developed a
completely rediculous left-hand shifting maneuver, where I use my
left-thumb to depress the ctrl or alt or meta key, and my left pointer
finger to depress the corresponding letter key (e.g C-a, C-e, Cx,
etc.)  I'm probably already accustomed to this thumb-behavior due to
using the meta (cmd) key proper for OSX key-combos.  It sure beats
having to rely on the "seeking" of a mouse, but I will concur that
such finger gymnastics falls far short of efficiency as well.
Dae San H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 01:35
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 20, 2006, at 8:12 AM, zuzu wrote:
> However, come to actually pause and think about it, I have developed a
> completely rediculous left-hand shifting maneuver, where I use my
> left-thumb to depress the ctrl or alt or meta key, and my left pointer
> finger to depress the corresponding letter key (e.g C-a, C-e, Cx,
> etc.)  I'm probably already accustomed to this thumb-behavior due to
> using the meta (cmd) key proper for OSX key-combos.  It sure beats
> having to rely on the "seeking" of a mouse, but I will concur that
> such finger gymnastics falls far short of efficiency as well.

Uh, oh..  That is exactly what I was afraid of happening when using
PowerBook..  I think refusing to use laptops due to the key binding
issue like I have is rather ridiculous though..  Yet I wouldn't want
to jeopardize my computing productivity by giving up emacs key
bindings.  Can larger emacs user population please stand up and share
your opinions on this issue?

Hey, we really should think about re-implementing emacs in ruby like
Sean mentioned.  IMHO, Ruby is really a better lisp! ;)

daesan
zuzu (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 01:58
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/19/06, Dae San H. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Uh, oh..  That is exactly what I was afraid of happening when using
> PowerBook..  I think refusing to use laptops due to the key binding
> issue like I have is rather ridiculous though..  Yet I wouldn't want
> to jeopardize my computing productivity by giving up emacs key
> bindings.  Can larger emacs user population please stand up and share
> your opinions on this issue?
>
> Hey, we really should think about re-implementing emacs in ruby like
> Sean mentioned.  IMHO, Ruby is really a better lisp! ;)
>
> daesan


My understanding is that EmacsLisp doesn't even have _closures_.  :-(

In addition to GNU EMACS being Free (Libre) Software, along with tons
of FSF documentation, here's a digital copy of 'The Craft of Text
Editing' (a breakdown and discussion of the design of EMACS):
http://www.finseth.com/craft/
Nicolas K. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 07:28
(Received via mailing list)
Dae San H. wrote:

> is no control/meta keys due to the placement of near useless arrow keys.
>
>
I feel you pain. To add to this, I really can't figure out how to make
the alt key become the Meta key in the terminal based emacs. I added the
(setq mac-command-key-is-meta nil)
but nothing works neither the apple key or the alt key is the meta key.
Did I miss something?
zuzu (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 08:24
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/20/06, Nicolas K. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> > is a 'fn' key which confuses my figures on the correct positions of
> > connection, my desire for a laptop couldn't have been higher. Can
> > daesan
> >
> >
> I feel you pain. To add to this, I really can't figure out how to make
> the alt key become the Meta key in the terminal based emacs. I added the
> (setq mac-command-key-is-meta nil)
> but nothing works neither the apple key or the alt key is the meta key.
> Did I miss something?

I think the issue here is the terminal emulation you're using and the
preferences for Terminal.app.  I'm rather certain a preference exists
to correctly pass the alt keycode (which EMACS will then recognize).
As, I sure do think having to use escape (Esc) for meta, sucks.
Gene T. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 09:17
(Received via mailing list)
Dae San H. wrote:
> I apologize for the off topic post, but knowing that many ruby
> programmers are emacs/PowerBook users, I don't think this is
> completely irrelevant..
>
> For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your
> PowerBook?  I've been thinking about buying a powerbook for four
> years now but didn't only because using emacs key bindings seems
> extremely awkward on Apple's laptops.  On the lower left side of

(I couldn't resist)
My Powerbook G4 runs vim, textmate, and komodo fine.

The DuoCore ones seem to run really hot when they're running Wynton
Marsalis HD screen saver.
Dae San H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 09:32
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 20, 2006, at 2:27 PM, Nicolas K. wrote:
> I feel you pain. To add to this, I really can't figure out how to
> make the alt key become the Meta key in the terminal based emacs. I
> added the
> (setq mac-command-key-is-meta nil)
> but nothing works neither the apple key or the alt key is the meta
> key. Did I miss something?

 From Terminal.app's menu select "Terminal" -> "Window Settings..."

Then from the drop down menu, choose "Keyboard" and check "Use option
as meta key".  Then press "Use settings as Defaults".  elisp
configuration for modifier keys only works for GUI based emacs.

I guess we really need some central repository of information for Mac
OS X emacs users..  In the mean time, you might want to refer to
http://www.macosxhints.com

best,
daesan
Dae San H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 09:32
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 20, 2006, at 8:57 AM, zuzu wrote:
> My understanding is that EmacsLisp doesn't even have _closures_.  :-(
>
> In addition to GNU EMACS being Free (Libre) Software, along with tons
> of FSF documentation, here's a digital copy of 'The Craft of Text
> Editing' (a breakdown and discussion of the design of EMACS):
> http://www.finseth.com/craft/

Great resource!  I got to take a close look at this~ :)

daesan
Bil K. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 13:13
(Received via mailing list)
Dae San H. wrote:
>
> For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your PowerBook?

See Brian M.'s post about aquamacs,

  http://www.testing.com/cgi-bin/blog/2006/01/05#aquamacs

he used to maintain a version of emacs,

  http://www.testing.com/cgi-bin/blog/2006/03/15#two...

Regards,
Bob H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 15:50
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 20, 2006, at 2:27 AM, Dae San H. wrote:

> Then from the drop down menu, choose "Keyboard" and check "Use
> option as meta key".  Then press "Use settings as Defaults".  elisp
> configuration for modifier keys only works for GUI based emacs.
>
> I guess we really need some central repository of information for
> Mac OS X emacs users..  In the mean time, you might want to refer
> to http://www.macosxhints.com
>
> best,
> daesan

I'm not an emacs user, I've tried but I've been using vi-like stuff
since 1977 or something so... what can I say. However, the lisp
community is full of emacs types and OS X types with a significant
population of both. The lengths some of these guys will go is quite
astonishing. Bill Clementson, aside from having a great blog, has a
bunch of entries about running emacs on OS/X (see <http://
bc.tech.coop/blog/041024.html>, <http://bc.tech.coop/blog/
041029.html>, <http://bc.tech.coop/blog/060116.html>, and <http://
bc.tech.coop/blog/060131.html> for one series of articles). Anyway,
these guys in the lisp community have lots to say about it. I know
that a lot of people remap the keys and move the key tops on their
keyboard to match (but do this only after *carefully* considering
what will happen if you break one of the *tiny* attachments things on
a powerbook/powermac key -- in other words, don't).

If you want to run an X11 version of emacs you can pretty much do
anything you like, but it is going to be a pain to use (e.g. the clip
board in X11 is different than the one in OS X).

The other thing to consider is using something like aquamacs -- a lot
of lisp folks have capitulated and gone that route. Most are
relatively happy, I guess it compensates leaving the terminal with
integration to OS X.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Bob

----
Bob H.                  -- blogs at <http://www.recursive.ca/
hutch/>
Recursive Design Inc.          -- <http://www.recursive.ca/>
Raconteur                      -- <http://www.raconteur.info/>
xampl for Ruby                 -- <http://rubyforge.org/projects/xampl/>
unknown (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 18:00
(Received via mailing list)
> guys in the lisp community have lots to say about it. I know that a
> lot of people remap the keys and move the key tops on their keyboard
> to match (but do this only after *carefully* considering what will
> happen if you break one of the *tiny* attachments things on a
> powerbook/powermac key -- in other words, don't).

Even more OT, but if you break the prongs that hold the keys in place,
you can get them replaced for free at your local Apple store.  I think
the techs there are rather used to seeing them break.  If you don't
have a local Apple store, I guess you're a bit more out of luck, but
for a lot of people it's not a big risk to remap keys.
Dae San H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 18:33
(Received via mailing list)
Thank you for all the comments regarding my earlier post.  I really
appreciate them.

I would like to clarify couple of things though.  In case it wasn't
clear from my earlier post, I've been an emacs/Mac OS X user for some
time now and I am aware of most issues with using emacs on Mac OS X.

My concern this time is specifically about PowerBook's keyboard
layout.  The problem is that since it lacks right control/option
keys, I cannot, for example, press 'right-control + a' to move the
cursor to the beginning of the line.  I would have to use my left
little finger to press left control key and use my left ring finger
to press 'a', for example.  This kind of 'finger gymnastics' is a
highly unnatural and would lower my typing efficiency quite a bit,
I'm afraid.

The funny thing is Happy Hacking Keyboard, which many emacs fans seem
to prefer, also lack the right control key.  Are emacs users
generally not using right control key?  Am I really the only one who
would suffer from the lack of right control/option keys?

best,

daesan
Nick S. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 18:38
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/20/06, Dae San H. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> The funny thing is Happy Hacking Keyboard, which many emacs fans seem
> to prefer, also lack the right control key.  Are emacs users
> generally not using right control key?  Am I really the only one who
> would suffer from the lack of right control/option keys?


I think many folks who spend long periods of time in emacs map capslock
to
control so that control is on the home row where it was originally on
keyboards before the ps/2 era came along.  I do that with all my
machines,
windows, os x, and linux alike :-)

/Nick
Timothy B. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 18:51
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 20, 2006, at 8:38 AM, Nick S. wrote:

>
> I think many folks who spend long periods of time in emacs map
> capslock to
> control so that control is on the home row where it was originally on
> keyboards before the ps/2 era came along.  I do that with all my
> machines,
> windows, os x, and linux alike :-)
>
> /Nick

Yeah, I do that as well, and it's really not hard to hit Caps-Lock +
A, just shift the hand a bit.

Tim
ruben (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 18:59
(Received via mailing list)
At Mon, 20 Mar 2006 05:55:09 +0900, Dae San H. wrote:
>
> For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your
> PowerBook?  I've been thinking about buying a powerbook for four
> years now but didn't only because using emacs key bindings seems
> extremely awkward on Apple's laptops.  On the lower left side of
> powerbook, there is a 'fn' key which confuses my figures on the
> correct positions of control/meta(option) keys.  On the lower right
> side of powerbook, there is no control/meta keys due to the placement
> of near useless arrow keys.

I have an iBook, but I actually use Linux 99.9% of the time on it.
So, on linux with X, I just remap the small "enter" key on the right
to right control. Then I have the keyboard the way I like it.  I tend
to use the left and the right control key, but only the left meta
key.  But you could as well remap the command-keys to meta too of
course.  It's just what I'm used to.

I have used MacOSX exlusively on my iBook for a couple of months.
However, I just ended up running a full screen X server with fluxbox
and using emacs on X.  You can remap keys with xmodmap in the X
server.  You can actually do that even if you don't use X fullscreen.
(thus the windows from the X server just look like native OSX windows)
It does mean that you need to use an Emacs which runs on X.  If I
remember right, you can select text and use the menu of the X-server
to copy-paste with native OSX applications.  You'll notice however
that X-applications are, what I call, second class citizens on
OSX. You can install an X version of emacs with darwinports.

Anyways, if I need to use OSX these days, I use the emacs from
http://homepage.mac.com/zenitani/emacs-e.html, which is a recent
version from cvs bundled with a number of packages.  This is more to
have a decent editor, just in case I need one.  It's not comfortable
to use for me due to the keyboard layout.  As a "native" OSX Emacs, it
is a nice package though.  I'm not sure, but I believe you can
configure it to use the Command key as Meta (which gives you left and
right Meta).

And then there's also a couple of utilities for OSX to remap keys (OSX
Tiger has a built-in feature to remap some modifier keys).
* DoubleCommand from http://doublecommand.sourceforge.net
  a kernel extension which allows you to do certain key remappings
  I used this for awhile for enter->right control mapping
  However, if I remember right, it was not very stable in the sense that
it
  would sometimes lose the remappings after some time. And you have to
  be careful when doing upgrades: if the kernel has been updated, the
  kernel extension cannot be loaded anymore, and you can only boot in
  safe mode.  But this is documented on the website. (you can disable
  the extension when booted in safe mode)
  (don't take my word about the stability, this is some time ago with
   the first version of doublecommand for OSX Tiger)
* uControl
  The website is currently down, but this is another tool to remap
  keys under OSX.  Didn't try this though.

I hope this helps...

Ruben
ruben (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 19:08
(Received via mailing list)
At Tue, 21 Mar 2006 01:50:07 +0900, Timothy B. wrote:
> >
> > /Nick
>
> Yeah, I do that as well, and it's really not hard to hit Caps-Lock +
> A, just shift the hand a bit.
>
> Tim
>

Like the original poster, I use the right control key. I'm just lost
without a right control key. It's a habbit of course, but once you're
used to it, it's hard to change.  Things like C-x C-f, C-a, C-e, C-g
just seem to go easier with two hands.

Ruben
Timothy B. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 19:19
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 20, 2006, at 9:08 AM, ruben wrote:

>>> keyboards before the ps/2 era came along.  I do that with all my
>
> Like the original poster, I use the right control key. I'm just lost
> without a right control key. It's a habbit of course, but once you're
> used to it, it's hard to change.  Things like C-x C-f, C-a, C-e, C-g
> just seem to go easier with two hands.
>
> Ruben
>

Yeah, most of those would be awkward even using Caps L..  I hadn't
really thought about that (I use a dvorak layout, and x, f, and g can
all be reached with the right hand, and a and e aren't at all
difficult to hit using just the left and Caps L.).  Just trying to
hit right control is really awkward for me on the standard mac keyboard.
Dae San H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-20 21:50
(Received via mailing list)
Thanks to everyone who replied!

I now have a sketchy view of how other emacs users are dealing with
keyboard layout issues on apple hardware.  Being one of the oldest
open source software it is, it seems that emacs usage style has
become somewhat fragmented.  Having converted to emacs rather
recently (5 yrs. ago), I just got used to using control keys as where
they are.  Personally, I also find it easier to use option keys as
the meta key rather than ESC or command keys.  I use control keys and
option keys on both sides of the keyboard.

So I guess there may not be much demand for the customized keyboard
layout for apple laptops.  I was hoping that if there were sufficient
interests, we might be able to commission building a custom designed
replacement keyboard for powerbook/ibook to some taiwanese keyboard
manufacturing companies.  Oh well..  If any of you are interested,
please let me know.

best,
daesan
zuzu (Guest)
on 2006-03-21 00:05
(Received via mailing list)
On 3/20/06, Dae San H. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
> So I guess there may not be much demand for the customized keyboard
> layout for apple laptops.  I was hoping that if there were sufficient
> interests, we might be able to commission building a custom designed
> replacement keyboard for powerbook/ibook to some taiwanese keyboard
> manufacturing companies.  Oh well..  If any of you are interested,
> please let me know.
>
> best,
> daesan

Feel free to create a dominant assurance contract as an investment
opportunity to manifest exactly that! :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assurance_contract
Dae San H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-21 14:32
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 21, 2006, at 7:05 AM, zuzu wrote:
> Feel free to create a dominant assurance contract as an investment
> opportunity to manifest exactly that! :-)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assurance_contract

That's a very good idea!  So far no one seems to be interested.
tough~ :-(

best,
daesan
Ryan D. (Guest)
on 2006-03-22 09:52
(Received via mailing list)
On Mar 20, 2006, at 3:13 AM, Bil K. wrote:

> Dae San H. wrote:
>>
>> For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your
>> PowerBook?
>
> See Brian M.'s post about aquamacs,
>  http://www.testing.com/cgi-bin/blog/2006/01/05#aquamacs
> he used to maintain a version of emacs,
>  http://www.testing.com/cgi-bin/blog/2006/03/15#two...
> experiences

GNU emacs builds a mac bundle right out of CVS. It is fully GUI'd,
has clipboard support, etc. Works well. See the readme in the "mac"
subdir.

--
_why: zenspider's most intense moments of solice are immediately
following the slaughter [...]
_why: that topknot's the only thing keeping a lid on the righteous anger
bricolage: yeah, that and his flagrant obsession with dvorak
unknown (Guest)
on 2006-03-28 07:19
(Received via mailing list)
Dae San H. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> writes:

> For all you emacs/PowerBook users, how do you live with your
> PowerBook?  I've been thinking about buying a powerbook for four
> years now but didn't only because using emacs key bindings seems
> extremely awkward on Apple's laptops.  On the lower left side of

Been using it for years.  Never had any trouble with it at all.

I had a harder time a number of years ago going from a Sun
keyboard with the control key where everyone's got the capsLock
key these days to a keyboard with the control key on the
bottom left.

> I actually had expected someone would build/sell a customized
> PowerBook keyboards tailored for emacs users by now..  I am confused

You can control the keyboard layout.  Is it worth it?  You'd
end up screwing up everytime you used a 'normal' keyboard.

For the same reason, I keep customizations of emacs itself
to a minimum, too.

> With the introduction of MacBook Pro and near ubiquitousness of WiFi
> connection, my desire for a laptop couldn't have been higher.  Can
> anybody who share this dilemma comment on this?

I love my PB G4 15".  Just got an Intel iMac, and will eventually
replace the G4 pbook with an Intel machine, but not yet.

> For those of you who think I'm a total nut for expecting Apple to
> solve my person problem, emacs key bindings have been supported in

Kind of.  You'll probably hate the fact that the trackpad
only has a single button even more than anything the keyboard
can do to you.  (There are some things you can do to help
with that, too - SideTrack, an extension, helps a lot).  If
I'm going to be working on the machine for more than a little
while, I plug in a small external mouse (with scrollwheel and
two buttons).
Erik H. (Guest)
on 2006-03-29 02:59
(Received via mailing list)
On 2006-03-19 23:27:09 -0800, Dae San H. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> 
said:
> I guess we really need some central repository of information for Mac
> OS X emacs users..  In the mean time, you might want to refer to
> http://www.macosxhints.com

There is a wealth of information at http://www.emacswiki.org.
unknown (Guest)
on 2006-03-29 06:59
(Received via mailing list)
Probably easier to just get some white nail polish and write the new
letter on the existing keys.
unknown (Guest)
on 2006-03-29 07:14
(Received via mailing list)
Although I'm not a big emacs user, previously, when working with a
Powerbook at my desk, I just plugged in my external keyboard
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm in and sat the Powerbook up
on some kind of stand to bring the screen up to the right height.

I understand this isn't an option when you have to be mobile, but I'm
fortunate that most of my work happens at my desk.

What was a pain for me is that "Command" (or "clover", or "apple") key.
GNU/Linux apps want a control key, but Apple apps want that command
key. Constantly remapping back and forth is unacceptable.
Daryl R. (Guest)
on 2006-03-29 17:01
(Received via mailing list)
Hi-

On Mar 28, 2006, at 10:13 PM, removed_email_address@domain.invalid wrote:

> What was a pain for me is that "Command" (or "clover", or "apple")
> key.
> GNU/Linux apps want a control key, but Apple apps want that command
> key. Constantly remapping back and forth is unacceptable.

I have an Applescript which remaps the command and option keys for
switching
btw. a mac and a windows keyboard.  Reply off-list if you would like
me to
send it to you.

>
>

--
Daryl

"We want great men who, when fortune frowns, will not be discouraged."
     -- Colonel Henry Knox, 1776
unknown (Guest)
on 2006-03-29 19:22
(Received via mailing list)
> I have an Applescript which remaps the command and option
> keys for switching btw. a mac and a windows keyboard.

I don't understand what good would that do. I still need the
alt/option/meta key (since we are talking about emacs here).

What I'd tried doing for a little while was swapping the control
and command keys using:

System Prefs --> Keyboard and Mouse --> Keyboard tab -->
Modifier Keys...

(I'm guessing your Applescript does something similar to
that, but maybe with the touch of a key-combination?)

Anyhow, sorry for getting off-topic -- recall from my post that
I'm using that special ergo Contoured keyboard and not the
built-in Powerbook keyboard. It gives me 2 easy-to-reach
special keys: those can be mapped to either control & alt, or
else command & alt.

Now, what would be nice (I think) would be if there was some
global Cocoa/Carbon setting to make all Apple apps listen to
the control key instead of the command key. Then the whole
thing would be uniform, and you could hop from emacs to
Firefox to Preview to whatever without missing a beat.
Dae San H. (Guest)
on 2006-04-04 20:34
(Received via mailing list)
Sorry for the late reply, I was no longer expecting replies on this
thread.

My problem really is about the missing right side control/option keys
on powerbook's keyboard layout.  From other people's reply, I found
out that usage styles of emacs have fragmented quite a bit.  In my
case, I heavily use right side control/option keys.  To press Ctrl-a,
for example, I use my right small finger to reach control key on the
right and press a with my left small finger.

That's why I have difficulties with apple's laptops.  I find apple's
desktop keyboard pleasant to use.

But I guess you use left control/option keys only mostly?  Many emacs
people on this list seem to so.

Thanks for the reply, it's very interesting to hear about people's
different usage style of emacs!

best,
daesan


On Mar 28, 2006, at 12:18 PM, removed_email_address@domain.invalid wrote:

> keyboard with the control key where everyone's got the capsLock
> to a minimum, too.
>
> No HTML in E-Mail! --    http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
> Are you posting responses that are easy for others to follow?
>    http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting
>

Dae San H.
removed_email_address@domain.invalid
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