Issue #7328 has been reported by boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky). ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 07:58
on 2012-11-11 09:01
Issue #7328 has been updated by alexeymuranov (Alexey Muranov). (-1) ** 0.5 should not be defined! I just tried it and it gave me (6.123233995736766e-17+1.0i) -- approximately the complex i. Why not -i ?? ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32768 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 09:45
It woudl never be -i. (-1) ** 0.5 => i (or, in complex coordinates, 0+1i, which is basically what (6.123233995736766e-17+1.0i) means. On 11 November 2012 18:01, alexeymuranov (Alexey Muranov) < redmine@ruby-lang.org> wrote: > Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) > result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not > worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about > rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence > is the way it is. > > > -- > http://bugs.ruby-lang.org/ > > -- Matthew Kerwin, B.Sc (CompSci) (Hons) http://matthew.kerwin.net.au/ ABN: 59-013-727-651 "You'll never find a programming language that frees you from the burden of clarifying your ideas." - xkcd
on 2012-11-11 10:34
Issue #7328 has been updated by alexeymuranov (Alexey Muranov). phluid61 (Matthew Kerwin) wrote: > It woudl never be -i. (-1) ** 0.5 => i (or, in complex coordinates, 0+1i, > which is basically what (6.123233995736766e-17+1.0i) means. > What do you mean? Why (-1)^(0.5) i and not -i? Mathematically, it is not defined. ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32772 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 10:39
Issue #7328 has been updated by alexeymuranov (Alexey Muranov). I have not still figured out how exactly this mailing issue tracker works, i have not managed to configure it to receive email notifications, and it seems that if i edit my comment the edited version is not what the others reply to, so i will post again the second part of my comment: I agree that from pragmatic point of view it may be better for (-1)**0.5 to return i than nothing, but then i would prefer it written clearly as (-1) ** 0.5. In mathematics you would put parentheses in (-a)^n. I think that unary +/- have the same precedence as binary, at least in mathematics. I am -1 for the change. ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32773 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 16:01
Issue #7328 has been updated by trans (Thomas Sawyer). "In mathematics you would put parentheses in (-a)^n. For example: -e^x is ... well ... -(e^x)." I think that's the opposite of what's generally expected. Currently Ruby does: -2**2 #=> -4 but commonly it would be: -2**2 #=> 4 It's curious how Ruby got the operator precedence it has. Clearly it is based on C, which most languages seem to mimic without much consideration. Yet Ruby stuck `**` way up top. I wonder why? ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32779 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 16:40
Issue #7328 has been updated by alexeymuranov (Alexey Muranov). trans (Thomas Sawyer) wrote: > It's curious how Ruby got the operator precedence it has. Clearly it is based on C, which most languages seem to mimic without much consideration. Yet Ruby stuck `**` way up top. I wonder why? I am sorry, i hear for the first time that commonly -2^2 would be 4 :). ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32780 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 17:26
Issue #7328 has been updated by trans (Thomas Sawyer).
@alexeymuranov
-2 * -2 = 4
----------------------------------------
Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and -
https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32782
Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky)
Status: Open
Priority: Normal
Assignee:
Category:
Target version:
I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just
below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg.
Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 **
0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5...
Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized.
I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know
why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 17:35
Issue #7328 has been updated by alexeymuranov (Alexey Muranov). trans (Thomas Sawyer) wrote: > @alexeymuranov > > -2 * -2 = 4 This is not the same, and I do not agree with this either. In my opinion, "-2 * -2" is not a legal syntax (the "*-" part), it should be (-2)*(-2) or -2*(-2) = - (2*(-2)). Tomas, can you find a printed or otherwise confirmed example where an expression with parentheses like "-(2^2)" or "-(e^x)" or "-(x^2)" is used? ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32783 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 17:46
Issue #7328 has been updated by trans (Thomas Sawyer). "In my opinion, "-2 * -2" is not a legal syntax (the "*-" part), it should be (-2)*(-2) or -2*(-2) = - (2*(-2))." I don't understand this. Type `-2*-2` in Ruby and it produces `4`. "Can you find a printed or otherwise confirmed example where an expression with parentheses like "-(2^2)" or "-(e^x)" or "-(x^2)" is used?" I stand corrected on this. I was thinking in terms of just then numerical value. Sorry. ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32784 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 18:00
Issue #7328 has been updated by alexeymuranov (Alexey Muranov). trans (Thomas Sawyer) wrote: > "In my opinion, "-2 * -2" is not a legal syntax (the "*-" part), it should be (-2)*(-2) or -2*(-2) = - (2*(-2))." > > I don't understand this. Type `-2*-2` in Ruby and it produces `4`. > I was talking about writing conventions, how i learned them in elementary school. I think it is unfortunate that Ruby allows this "shortcut": if Ruby allows `-a * -b`, this means that it first computes `-a` and `-b`, and afterwards the product. This means that if i want Ruby to compute `- a*b` in the "standard" way, i have to put the parentheses `-(a*b)`. I consider this a bug. ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32785 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 18:02
Issue #7328 has been updated by trans (Thomas Sawyer). Actually now that I think about it some more, this is similar to my problem with using power notation in my Stick project (an SI unit system for Ruby). When applying powers to units the result wasn't always the one desired --sometimes you want it to apply to the number, other times to the unit itself (e.g cubic meters). It really would be nice if `^` could be used for power too, along side `**`, and allow one to be just above unary operations and the other just below. That would provide the most flexibility. ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32786 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 18:30
Issue #7328 has been updated by trans (Thomas Sawyer). @alexeymuranov Okay, I see what you are saying. But I think the problem really is that mathematical notation tends to be a little too conventional and variant for a programming language, which needs to be more precise. In equations, the negative sign tends to either negate the whole, or is used to mean subtraction. It rarely occurs in the middle somewhere as a negation because it gets factored out to the whole. So it just rarely an issue. For programming however, it would kind of suck is `* -2` was an error b/c `*` is applied before `-`. And it could get rather complicated if Ruby tried to apply one order in one case and another order in another. ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32787 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Open Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 19:33
Issue #7328 has been updated by marcandre (Marc-Andre Lafortune). Status changed from Open to Rejected Quoting Matz from http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/87126#163398: > People with mathematical background demand precedence for ** being > higher than that of unary minus. That's the reason. Thomas: Please check your facts, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations#E... ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32788 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Rejected Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 19:34
Issue #7328 has been updated by alexeymuranov (Alexey Muranov). In mathematical notation, when possible, the "minus operation" is usually introduced as the unary negation, and "a - b" is usually defined as a shorthand notation for "a + (-b)". To avoid any ambiguity, as far as i know (but i do not have a reference), the minus and the plus, both binary and unary, have all the same precedence. To the best of my knowledge, the expression "a * - b" is not a valid syntax in mathematics, at least in languages i am familiar with. trans (Thomas Sawyer) wrote: > @alexeymuranov Okay, I see what you are saying. But I think the problem really is that mathematical notation tends to be a little too conventional and variant for a programming language, which needs to be more precise. In equations, the negative sign tends to either negate the whole, or is used to mean subtraction. It rarely occurs in the middle somewhere as a negation because it gets factored out to the whole. So it is rarely an issue. > > For programming however, it would kind of suck if `* -2` was an error b/c `*` is applied before `-`. And it could get rather complicated if Ruby tried to apply one order in one case and another order in another. ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32789 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Rejected Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 20:02
Issue #7328 has been updated by trans (Thomas Sawyer). "Thomas: Please check your facts, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations#E... 1) I did not make this issue. 2) If you read #9 you will see that I did check my facts. 3) Some consideration of #11 would at least be nice. ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32790 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Rejected Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 21:38
Issue #7328 has been updated by marcandre (Marc-Andre Lafortune). Hi, trans (Thomas Sawyer) wrote: > "Thomas: Please check your facts, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations#E... > > 1) I did not make this issue. My understanding is that the original poster was wondering why the precedence was like that and that he would have preferred it the other way. Alexey answered correctly that the reason was because of the order or operations in mathematics. I only wanted to suggest that before contradicting someone it was a good idea to check the facts, in particular if one isn't extremely familiar with the field. I didn't mean to offend and I'm sorry if I did. ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32791 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Rejected Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-11 22:38
Can I just point out that everyone is using asterisks and carets and arguing about standard mathematical notation? I reckon the biggest factor driving this discussion should be existing behaviour. Changing how operators behave is probably the single biggest thing that defines and thus changes a language. If you were writing a new language, however, I'd find this disussion and its outcome fascinating. On Nov 12, 2012 6:37 AM, "marcandre (Marc-Andre Lafortune)" <
on 2012-11-12 03:51
Issue #7328 has been updated by boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky). I am pleased by this discussion and I thank Tom Sawyer for showing me that I am not alone who has feelings of surprise at -2 ** 2 behaviour. However, SO people finally found this link (http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/87126#163398) in which Matz has already rationalized ** behaviour. For this reason, I rescind this feature request (which has already been changed to 'Rejected' status by the time I am writing this), and also for the reasons of stability as per phluid61. Just like Alex Muranov, I do dislike the current result of (-1) ** 0.5, which is (6.123233995736766e-17+1.0i), but that would be another issue, which I don't feel like opening at the moment. ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32798 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Rejected Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
on 2012-11-12 09:59
Issue #7328 has been updated by alexeymuranov (Alexey Muranov). Since #7331 is rejected, i do not think anymore it is nonsense to treat unary `-` specially and give it the highest precedence. Otherwise 1. it is stuck between `*` and `**` 2. even with respect to `**` its behavior is not consistent: the expression `-2 ** -2` does not raise an error, but evaluates to (-1/4). ---------------------------------------- Feature #7328: Move ** operator precedence under unary + and - https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7328#change-32812 Author: boris_stitnicky (Boris Stitnicky) Status: Rejected Priority: Normal Assignee: Category: Target version: I would like to ask to consider decreasing ** operator precedence just below that of -/+ unary operators. I know that other languages (eg. Python) have ** operator bind tighter than negation, but seeing -1 ** 0.5 give the result -1 and having to type parenthesis (-1) ** 0.5... Even if it's not worth changing, I'd like to hear this rationalized. I've asked about rationalization of this on SO, and nobody seems to know why this precedence is the way it is.
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