Hi folks, What say we create a new group to replace this one, perhaps called "Prototype Scriptaculous Users"? I have four reasons for suggesting this: 1. Prototype and Scriptaculous have grown far beyond their Ruby-on- Rails spinoff status, and I'll even venture to say (speaking off the top of my head, based on no data or research whatsoever) that most users of Prototype and Scriptaculous don't use Ruby or Rails. 2. People keep posting Ruby questions to the group; hopefully taking "ruby" out of the name will minimize that. 3. People searching for Prototype help will probably be more likely to find the group (although I don't think it's currently a massive problem; I was pretty unusure when I first found it, though). 4. We can turn on new member post moderation and stop the spam; we can limit page posting to managers only (being fairly liberal with who we add as managers). Regarding #4: Moderating posts from new members is a PITA, but I think there are enough of us who are active enough -- kangax, Fred P., JDD, Christophe, RobG, Walter D., and lately myself -- that if we make all of us managers, new messages will get approved pretty quickly. Just to reserve the name (don't ask me why), I've created the group but completely locked it down until/unless we decide to use it. If so, I'll open it up and add people as managers, and if someone more appropriate would like to take ownership of the group, I'll happily set them up. Thoughts? -- T.J. Crowder tj / crowder software / com
on 2008-06-14 11:51
on 2008-06-14 12:04
I agree, we really should create this new group. Brilliant. /Anders 14 jun 2008 kl. 11.51 skrev T.J. Crowder:
on 2008-06-14 12:12
(Thanks Anders!) > Moderating posts from new members is a PITA, but... Actually, exploring the features of Google Groups a bit, if it turns out that moderating messages from new users is too much of a pain, Groups has a feature where managers can delete messages (e.g. spam) after the fact (and ban users). Doesn't help the people who subscribe via email, but... -- T.J.
on 2008-06-14 13:17
It is a good idea. I wasn't sure I was in the right place at first. Had to go back to the prototypejs.org site and make sure I didn't somehow click the wrong link. ;-) -Fred On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 4:51 AM, T.J. Crowder <email@example.com> wrote: > > Hi folks, > > What say we create a new group to replace this one, perhaps called > "Prototype Scriptaculous Users"? I have four reasons for suggesting > this: -- Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers.
on 2008-06-14 19:28
I think moving the group lists (user and core) is a good idea. The bug tracking and versioning have already been moved. - JDD
on 2008-06-14 23:57
Sounds good : ) I'm not sure about moving "core" though - it's fine as it is, but "RoR: Spinoffs" does indeed sound confusing. - kangax
on 2008-06-15 07:53
Ahh right kangax, I didn't notice the core was already separate :) - JDD
on 2008-06-15 11:25
Well, it sounds like this idea has legs, although we should wait for comments for a couple more days so the only-on-weekdays folks get a chance to weigh in. Assuming we do it, though, here are the settings I recommend: Who can view? ( ) Only members can view group content (*) Anybody can view group content Directory listing (*) List this group in the Google Groups Directory ( ) Do not list this group Who can view members? ( ) Only members can view group members list (*) Only managers can view group members list Who can join? (*) Anyone can join ( ) People have to be invited ( ) People can request an invitation to join Who can create and edit pages? ( ) Managers only (*) Members only Who can upload files? ( ) Managers only (*) Members only Who can post messages? ( ) Managers only (*) Members only ( ) Anyone can post Who can invite new members? ( ) Managers only (*) Managers and members Message moderation ( ) All messages are held for moderation (*) No moderation - messages are delivered directly [x] Messages from new members are moderated Originally I was thinking only managers should be able to edit pages and upload files, but why limit it unless there's a problem, a manager can always ditch an inappropriate page. (We can't be incredibly liberal with "manager" status as I'd originally hoped because managers can remove messages. So figure 5-10 of us will need to volunteer to be managers and do the new user comment approvals.) -- T.J. Crowder tj / crowder software / com
on 2008-06-15 18:32
This all sounds great to me. Every time I get SpamSieve trained to the point that the spam gets eaten, I start losing parts of legitimate threads. BTW, I'm a mail-only subscriber, not sure that I would be much help in moderating members if it means you have to stay on the Web. I've never done that in a Google Group before, so I don't know how it works in practice. Walter
on 2008-06-15 18:44
FYI TJ - I know I have become somewhat of a lurker here, but I read the list every day and respond when I can... I would have no problems keeping up with manager type stuff (moderating, etc...) even though I may not be the most outspoken person on the list. You can put me down as a volunteer if you want - just let me know. On 6/15/08, Walter Lee Davis <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > Walter > > > > (*) Anyone can join > > (*) Members only > > and upload files, but why limit it unless there's a problem, a manager > > > -- Ryan Gahl Manager, Senior Software Engineer Nth Penguin, LLC http://www.nthpenguin.com -- WebWidgetry.com / MashupStudio.com Future Home of the World's First Complete Web Platform -- Inquire: 1-920-574-2218 Blog: http://www.someElement.com LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ryangahl
on 2008-06-15 20:19
@Ryan: Great, thanks! @Walter: You could still read the group via email, but I think to moderate you'd have to briefly drop by the management interface on the web. Probably a two-minute task any given day, so if enough of us do it... (And I could be wrong, there may be a way to do it via email as well; I've never moderated a Google Group before.) -- T.J. :-)
on 2008-06-16 00:01
TJ, These seem reasonable. I'm sure we can simply go with same settings as there are now. Better name and moderation will be a winner. - kangax
on 2008-06-16 07:09
On 16.6.2008, at 1.00, kangax wrote: > > TJ, > These seem reasonable. > I'm sure we can simply go with same settings as there are now. Better > name and moderation will be a winner. One weird thing I've noticed with the "Messages from new members are moderated" flag is that when a moderator accepts the first message of a new member, the member is not automatically accepted as an "old member", and her further messages will be flagged as waiting for approval as well. A moderator must explicitly go to the members list, find the new member, and mark her as not new in order to get things right. This is not a huge deal, just a gotcha and against how I'd think new member moderation should work. It seems like it's made more for moderating new members that post stupid questions than for moderating new members that are spammers. Cheers, //jarkko >> >> (*) Anyone can join >> (*) Members only >> and upload files, but why limit it unless there's a problem, a > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Ruby on Rails: Spinoffs" group. > To post to this group, send email to email@example.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-spinoffs?hl=en > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > -- Jarkko Laine http://jlaine.net http://dotherightthing.com http://www.railsecommerce.com http://odesign.fi
on 2008-06-16 09:15
Thanks for the head's up. > This is not a huge deal, just a gotcha and against how I'd > think new member moderation should work. Yeah. I mean, I can see approving the first message but not disabling future moderation, but I'd expect it to be something I could do right there, e.g.: < Approve > [x] Stop moderating this user < Decline > [ ] Ban this user Well, we'll see how it goes; they do improve things over time. -- T.J. Crowder tj / crowder software / com
on 2008-06-16 13:03
TJ, If you are in need of others to do simple message moderation (meaning, answering the question: "Is this a legitimate question/response about Prototype and/or Scriptaculous?") I would be happy to help out. Oh, and I am a long, long time lurker. I basically scan the daily digest, but helping out in this manner might get me learning more/ helping more. Thanks, Glenn
on 2008-06-16 15:26
I highly endorse this event or product.
on 2008-06-16 15:56
has my +1 vote
on 2008-06-16 16:16
I'm a newbie and would like to see a seperat group for PS. I have an outstanding question that I would re-post in hopes of an answer by someone that is a PS guru. Frank
on 2008-06-16 16:21
I haven't seen a single nay... but also haven't seen the core team (Tobie and gang) give their thoughts about this... Would this move be supported from a core level (i.e. get the "official" stamp and be put on the protototypejs.org site)? Tobie, Christophe... guys? @TJ: Did you give out the URL yet to the group page?
on 2008-06-16 16:55
Ryan Gahl a écrit : > I haven't seen a single nay... but also haven't seen the core team > (Tobie and gang) give their thoughts about this... Would this move be > supported from a core level (i.e. get the "official" stamp and be put on > the protototypejs.org <http://protototypejs.org/> site)? Tobie, > Christophe... guys? I wonder this myself. I haven't had an opportunity to get in touch with Core lately, but know alread that: a) Kangax is just about Core (he contributes a lot and hangs out in Core's CF room these days…) b) I am Core, and I approve. c) The only major issue I see with that is that this group's address is ref'd everywhere as the official support ML for Proto/Scripty. It's going to take some time for the links to migrate, so we would need to go the extra mile in directing existing and new users alike to the new group when officially retiring this one. d) A lesser issue is that we're going to lose the archives, aren't we? I mean, we can't port them over to the new group, right? So when people search the group for past replies, they'll lose on the whole RoR-Spinoffs history and we'll get even more "this has been answered in excruciating detail a gazillion times" questions… e) The major wanko issue I see with that is that I'm going to lose my all-time message record  ;-) Ah well, couldn't last forever! I'll try and grab Core in CF to ask about this.  http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-spinoffs/about -- Christophe Porteneuve aka TDD email@example.com
on 2008-06-16 17:57
Hi Christophe, Thanks for weighing in! > c) The only major issue I see with that is that this group's address is > ref'd everywhere as the official support ML for Proto/Scripty... This would certainly be a short-term pain, but once we get the links updated (and we wouldn't want to move over until we did) we should be okay before too long. > d) A lesser issue is that we're going to lose the archives, aren't we? We would. :-( Unless: Is anyone who's currently a 'manager' or 'owner' of this group still involved or contactable? Because rather than creating a new one, we can just rename this group and change the settings, but we need someone with manager status to do that. The downside is that as far as I know, there isn't any redirect or anything, the old address just becomes invalid fairly abruptly. The upside is that we keep the archive -- and your all time high record. ;-) One of the things I'm keen to include once we do this is a FAQ page, and of course the first entry if we create a new replacement group would be along the lines of "Search the archive of the http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-spinoffs group (link); your question is probably already answered over there." Of course, if they just do a web search rather than an archive search, they'll find the answer regardless of which group it's in... -- T.J. Crowder tj / crowder software / com
on 2008-06-16 20:44
I think losing the spammers is beginning to be more valuable than losing the archive. A lot of people simply post their question without looking at the archive anyways. The online PS/SCR documentation has improved vastly since the early days, so there are more resources available to begin with. I do think we should work on a decent FAQ though. The "drag/drop scrolling div" question has posted enough times by now. Not being a ROR developer, I've always thought the name of the group to be a little off. People searching for "Prototype" are more likely to find the CORE group, and mistakenly post there, only to be sent elsewhere anyway. The managers of this group have failed to respond to repeated cries for help over the spamming, so let's dump it.
on 2008-06-16 21:05
I have started on a FAQ some time ago. It's fairly basic, but could be a good start http://github.com/kangax/protolicious/tree/master/... - kangax
on 2008-06-17 09:55
On Jun 16, 7:43 pm, Diodeus <diod...@gmail.com> wrote: > I think losing the spammers is beginning to be more valuable than > losing the archive. Yes, I think so too. But if we could do the one without the other, even better. -- T.J. :-)
on 2008-06-17 10:03
> I have started on a FAQ some time ago. It's fairly basic, but could be > a good start Great! I'll start a new thread for a FAQ discussion. I was going to wait until we'd made a decision on the other thing, but there's no good reason to. -- T.J. Crowder tj / crowder software / com
on 2008-06-17 20:01
Hi all, Just a very brief update on this: Everyone seems to think it's a good idea, including Tobie and a couple of the other core committers, so Tobie and I were talking about the mechanics and transition today. Look for an update soon, but I'm later for dinner. ;-) Meanwhile, Tobie suggested I start a naming thread over in Core: http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core/brow... -- T.J. Crowder tj / crowder software / com
on 2008-06-18 20:01
When do you plan to flip the switch? I think we're all in agreement that we can make a good go of it.
on 2008-06-18 20:10
Hi, On Jun 18, 7:00 pm, Diodeus <diod...@gmail.com> wrote: > When do you plan to flip the switch? I think we're all in agreement > that we can make a good go of it. We are indeed. Tobie's preference is for us to get a FAQ together first (which will, among other things, point to the correct group), post it to prototypejs.org, and then start the transition. I'm working with kangax (I hope) to pull together a FAQ (more in that thread when I can). Also, we have a line on the current owner of this group, which even if we decide to replace it (so we can have overlap) rather than renaming would be helpful in various ways; Tobie's chasing that up. I can't wait! Seems like the spam level kicked up as soon as I suggested it.. ;-) -- T.J. Crowder tj / crowder software / com
on 2008-06-18 20:14
It does, doesn't it?! :-) On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:09 PM, T.J. Crowder <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > I can't wait! Seems like the spam level kicked up as soon as I > suggested it.. ;-) -- Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers.
on 2008-06-18 21:02
Spam? Do you mean to say you are content with the current size of your "thingy"? I for one, welcome the helpful messages that those really nice people are spreading for free. Spam, indeed! On 6/18/08, Frederick Polgardy <email@example.com> wrote: > -- > Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. > > > -- Ryan Gahl Manager, Senior Software Engineer Nth Penguin, LLC http://www.nthpenguin.com -- WebWidgetry.com / MashupStudio.com Future Home of the World's First Complete Web Platform -- Inquire: 1-920-574-2218 Blog: http://www.someElement.com LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ryangahl
on 2008-06-18 21:37
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Ryan Gahl <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > Spam? Do you mean to say you are content with the current size of your > "thingy"? I for one, welcome the helpful messages that those really nice > people are spreading for free. Spam, indeed! > Hey, if I had a nickel for every time my email won a million dollar lottery. I'd be a rich man! -- Rick DeNatale My blog on Ruby http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/
on 2008-07-03 23:36
Hi all, I've been pursuing this new group thing behind the scenes with Tobie and the core team. And apparently I'm not the only one who thinks the spam has gotten just ridiculous. As you may know, we were sort of holding off moving to the new group until A) We could locate and contact the owner of this group so we could modify its description (etc.) to point to the new one, and B) Until we finished and posted a new FAQ to prototypejs.org which would (among other things) mention the new group. Frankly, both of them have been holding things up. But! Good news on both fronts. Tobie has finally succeeded (after much effort) in contacting an owner/manager of this group (DHH, in fact), and I've taken kangax's stuff, Tobie's outline, a few of my own ideas, and gotten together a draft FAQ. No major comments in a week, so it's now just pending Andrew doing some final edits to it, and then one of the core team will post it to the site. We already have enough volunteers to be moderators on the new group (and many, many thanks to the folks who've come forward) so we can cut way down on spam. So here's my recommendation: * 6 July 2008 (or soon thereafter): Post the FAQ. * 6 July 2008: "Open" the new group (it's currently hidden to avoid confusion), announce it in a thread here, and allow discussions in both places while suggesting that new threads get posted to the new group (but still answering them here if they're posted her). Start moving any ongoing discussions to the new group. * 15 July 2008: Stop answering questions here. If someone posts here, we'll just tell them to repost to the new group (that can mostly be done by doing a standard footer that goes on all messages). Edit the description of this group to redirect people to the new group. * 15 August 2008: Close this group entirely to new posts. Here are the details of the new group -- we still have time to change the URL/email address if people want, but as we say here in the UK, it does what it says on the box: New group name: Prototype & script.aculo.us URL: http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-scriptaculous Email address: email@example.com All in favor of the above say aye! -- T.J. Crowder tj / crowder software / com
on 2008-07-03 23:38
Aye! (Obviously) -- T.J. ;-)
on 2008-07-03 23:40
Eye I On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:37 PM, T.J. Crowder <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > > Aye! (Obviously) > > -- T.J. ;-) > > > -- Ryan Gahl Manager, Senior Software Engineer Nth Penguin, LLC http://www.nthpenguin.com -- WebWidgetry.com / MashupStudio.com Future Home of the World's First Complete Web Platform -- Inquire: 1-920-574-2218 Blog: http://www.someElement.com LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ryangahl
on 2008-07-03 23:50
on 2008-07-03 23:50
I, and aye could help moderate new member posts if needed.
on 2008-07-04 15:39
The Rastafarian delegation is recognized...
on 2008-07-05 05:47
Aye. On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 4:35 PM, T.J. Crowder <email@example.com> wrote: > > All in favor of the above say aye! > -- -- Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers.
on 2008-07-05 10:10
Hi all, In retrospect, deep in this thread wasn't the right place to post a timetable and ask opinions, so I started a thread specifically for doing so. Sorry about that. -- T.J. Crowder tj / crowder software / com