Forum: Ruby Taking the bull by its horns

Announcement (2017-05-07): www.ruby-forum.com is now read-only since I unfortunately do not have the time to support and maintain the forum any more. Please see rubyonrails.org/community and ruby-lang.org/en/community for other Rails- und Ruby-related community platforms.
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 17:29
(Received via mailing list)
Ok I'll put my cards on the table
male 45y
bg: Pascal (who's laughing?) Ada83, perl, python [ I only chose the
languages that influenced me, so I left C, bash and awk away ;)]
wk: Sys and netadmin Arrggg
location: Paris/France

Hope to see lots of others

Cheers
Robert
Todd B. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 17:37
Male 44years
Well known Languages: IBM Mainframe Assembler, REXX, Ruby
OK known Languages: C/C++, Java, Javascript
Work: Mainframe DataBase (DB2) Performance Monitor Developer
Location: Katy, Texas, USA.

Todd
Jano S. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 17:43
(Received via mailing list)
male 28y
bg: basic, pascal, c, java, python, c++ (symbian), 2 yrs ruby fulltime
(automated testing of c++ network app), now c++ win32
wk: C++ programmer, mobile-related
location: Bratislava/Slovakia

Jano
Robert K. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 18:10
(Received via mailing list)
m40y, located in Germany

Studies in CS using Pascal at the time, before that juvenile Z80
hackery, after university a bit of C++ coding and then Java. I also
like bash / sh programming and use Ruby for small day to day data
mining / manipulating tasks for which I used Perl once (must be ages
ago).  Currently diving into J2EE. Ah, and of course lots of SQL
(mainly Oracle and SQL Server).

robert


PS: Robert, IMHO Pascal is a great language for learning to program
because it omits the dimension of OO and allows to focus on proper
structuring. Also, it's far more readable than C.
SonOfLilit (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 19:48
(Received via mailing list)
m18y, Technion, Haifa.

Teenage hackery in BASIC, then a flurry of languages, settling
eventually on C, then Ruby.
work: C++, C and .NET internals doing software DRM for a security
software company, then C# doing data analysis for a web startup
(ClickTale... Every webmaster should have a look at them, they have a
great product and I work for them just because of how cool the product
and the people are).


Aur
Ari B. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 20:47
(Received via mailing list)
Is anyone here in the Dartmouth/ Lake Sunapee area of New Hampshire?
Yeah, a little sketchy and dodgy, but I'm wondering if there are any
other Ruby programmers outside of Portsmouth, NH.

Checking round
~ Ari
English is like a pseudo-random number generator - there are a
bajillion rules to it, but nobody cares.
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 20:49
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/17/07, SonOfLilit <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> m18y, Technion, Haifa.
My respect I'd probably added 10 years when I was your age;)

Cheers
R.
Michael F. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 21:03
(Received via mailing list)
male 22y
bg: dabbling in QBASIC, then a tiny bit of delphi when i was around
8-10 and finally PHP, discovered my love for ruby and programming
years later, now learning everything that comes along (smalltalk,
lisp/scheme, dylan, asm, bash, neko, haskell), lucky to have skipped
C/C++/Java and all the others :)
wk: IT-guy for everything
location: Tokyo/Japan

^ manveru
Todd B. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 21:07
(Received via mailing list)
m33y
bg: (programming, in choronological order) basic, fortran, pascal, c,
mathematica, c++, java, sql, php; none of which I'm particularly good
at (well, I'm ok in sql)
wk: engineering, network admin, some web development, mostly in the
data storage industry (robotic tape libraries)

Todd
Ryan D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 21:20
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 17, 2007, at 06:26 , Robert D. wrote:

> Ok I'll put my cards on the table
> male 45y
> bg: Pascal (who's laughing?) Ada83, perl, python [ I only chose the
> languages that influenced me, so I left C, bash and awk away ;)]
> wk: Sys and netadmin Arrggg
> location: Paris/France

male 34 seattle wa

bg (chrono): logo, basic, hypercard, forth, pascal, c, object pascal,
modula-2, smalltalk (finally fell in love with a language), sh/csh, c+
+, applescript, prolog, bash, perl, java, python, ruby, objective-c,
lisp/scheme, and some others I've since forgotten about scattered
throughout.

wk: consultant, mostly ruby/rails
Gregory B. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 21:47
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/17/07, Robert D. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Ok I'll put my cards on the table
> male 45y
> bg: Pascal (who's laughing?) Ada83, perl, python [ I only chose the
> languages that influenced me, so I left C, bash and awk away ;)]
> wk: Sys and netadmin Arrggg
> location: Paris/France

male 21y

bg: BASIC on commodore plus4 when I was 6-8yrs old,  QBASIC 10-12yrs
old,
later Python,Perl,Java,C,C++,Ruby,C# in order (with dabblings in
others such as Haskell)

wk: freelance developer, mostly ruport/camping/rails in order.
freelance tech writing, too.

location: currently nomadic between (Naugatuck|New Haven), CT and NYC
soon semi-permanent residence in New Haven! (By September)
John J. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 21:53
(Received via mailing list)
male 32y
background: Art, dabbling in C, Objective-C, designing web pages in
xhtml & CSS, dabbled w/PHP but found Ruby to be very lovely and
sensible, and more coherent than PHP. Learning Rails now.
work: none at the moment, but open to offers
location: Austin, Texas; previous 5 years in Tokyo, Japan


John J.
Ball, Donald A Jr (Library) (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 22:14
(Received via mailing list)
m33y
bg: atari basic, qbasic, pascal, turing, perl, c, c++, sql, java, xslt
(the light dawns: my first functional language), lisp, python, ruby
wk: web/database programming
location: music city, usa

- donald
Hemant K. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 22:24
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/17/07, Ball, Donald A Jr (Library) <removed_email_address@domain.invalid>
wrote:
> m33y
> bg: atari basic, qbasic, pascal, turing, perl, c, c++, sql, java, xslt
> (the light dawns: my first functional language), lisp, python, ruby
> wk: web/database programming
> location: music city, usa
>
> - donald
>
>

m23y
bg: C,C++,Python,pl/sql, Ruby, dabbling in erlang, some C# too
wk: web/network programming
location: Chennai/India

- gnufied
Morton G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 22:40
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 17, 2007, at 9:26 AM, Robert D. wrote:

> Hope to see lots of others

male, 70, retired programmer (after 46 years of working at it)
location: Ann Arbor, MI, USA
background: aerospace applications, communication systems, GUI design
and implementation
languages: (ranked by preference)
    -1 Basic, C++, AppleScript
     0 FORTRAN, PL/I, C, Forth, Java, Object Pascal
    +1 Objective C, Smalltalk/V, Common Lisp/CLOS
    +2 Logo, Eiffel, Scheme, Ruby

Also lots of assembler, especially early on. And a fair amount of
work with Mathematica (+2) but I'm not sure it should be counted as a
programming language (although it certainly contains one).

Regards, Morton
Stefan R. (Guest)
on 2007-07-17 23:38
25m, swiss
(Chrono) HyperTalk/-Card (loved that one, but I was about 6 or 7 back
then), C++, C, Perl, PHP, SQL, VB, Eiffel, Prolog, Ruby (my second
love), Java
Freelancer

Regards
Stefan
Robert K. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 01:22
(Received via mailing list)
On 17.07.2007 18:48, Robert D. wrote:
> On 7/17/07, SonOfLilit <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>> m18y, Technion, Haifa.
> My respect I'd probably added 10 years when I was your age;)

And how much did you add in *your* age? ;-)

  robert
Lionel B. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 01:57
(Received via mailing list)
m31y, located in France

Well-known Languages:
Ruby, Java, C, Perl, SQL, bash -:)

Fluent enough to code without opening reference books at each line:
C++, PHP, Javascript

Used but forgot since:
Prolog, Camel, Common Lisp, Pascal, Basic (spent times wroting programs
in Basic on paper when I was a kid because my family couldn't afford a
computer, never used it since then...)

Web Frameworks: past Enhydra, now Rails (for more than 2 years and ~18
month professionnaly)

Work:
Previously software architect with hands in the code most of the time
and when I wasn't hidden well enough 'the guy you go ask if you have a
technical question',
Now freelance: sometimes purely consultant, sometimes project manager on
whatever is using INET sockets :) (can be related to SMTP, HTTP, complex
network architectures, embedded OS on networking equipments...) and
doing specific web developments (with Rails).

Lionel B..
Stefan R. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 02:13
Robert K. wrote:
> On 17.07.2007 18:48, Robert D. wrote:
>> On 7/17/07, SonOfLilit <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>>> m18y, Technion, Haifa.
>> My respect I'd probably added 10 years when I was your age;)
>
> And how much did you add in *your* age? ;-)
>
>   robert

I suspect he didn't add, I guess he's really 55 ;-p

Regards
Stefan
Lionel B. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 04:12
(Received via mailing list)
Lionel B. wrote the following on 17.07.2007 23:57 :
> m31y, located in France
>
> Well-known Languages:
> Ruby, Java, C, Perl, SQL, bash -:)
>
> Fluent enough to code without opening reference books at each line:
> C++, PHP, Javascript
>
> Used but forgot since:
> Prolog, Camel,

whoops, Caml. I really forgot this one :-)
John C. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 05:39
(Received via mailing list)
male 47y
bg:
fortran,mortran,algol,basic,pascal,dcl,c,c++,lisp,scheme,assembler,perl,awk,sh,R,joy,sql,...
(Yes, I do collect languages, and yes, Ruby is the best I have seen so
far...)
wk: Embedded systems - build systems etc.
location: Christchurch New Zealand.




John C.                             Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
Tait Electronics                        Fax   : (64)(3) 359 4632
PO Box 1645 Christchurch                Email : 
removed_email_address@domain.invalid
New Zealand
Tom C. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 05:54
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, 2007-07-18 at 02:45 +0900, Gregory B. wrote:
> soon semi-permanent residence in New Haven! (By September)
m35y
bg: BASIC on TRS-80, assembler on C-64.  C, Java, C++, SQL, Ruby.
wk: Rails and whatever else Rich Kilmer tells me to do. :-)
location: Northern VA

Tom
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 07:16
(Received via mailing list)
I hope there's some kind of prize for the person who's been doing this
the longest ... it just might be me.

Male, started programming as an undergraduate on ILLIAC I and an IBM 650
in 1961. Later moved on to IBM 7094, IBM 1620, IBM 1130, CDC 1604, CDC
924, Sigma 9, Floating Point Systems array processors, Prime 850, VAX
11/780s, miscellaneous Unix servers and Linux. Languages: mostly
assembler and FORTRAN until 1992, at which point I learned "awk" and
Perl 4. I never did learn enough C to do it professionally and don't
plan to. :) The current languages are Perl 5 and R. At work I'm a
performance engineer.

Now the hobby stuff: I've had my own computer since the Altair 680B
days, and I still have every computer I ever owned *except* the
Commodore 64, which I donated to a charity rummage sale in 1990.
Languages: Perl, Forth, Lisp/Scheme, R, Ruby and soon Erlang.
Applications: quantitative finance, algorithmic composition and
synthesis of music, general scientific and statistical computing, and
analytic performance models.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 07:25
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
>     0 FORTRAN, PL/I, C, Forth, Java, Object Pascal
>    +1 Objective C, Smalltalk/V, Common Lisp/CLOS
>    +2 Logo, Eiffel, Scheme, Ruby
>
> Also lots of assembler, especially early on. And a fair amount of work
> with Mathematica (+2) but I'm not sure it should be counted as a
> programming language (although it certainly contains one).
>
> Regards, Morton
>
>
Dang ... someone beat me out for "doing it the longest". Not by much,
though.

I suppose I should rate languages too then.

Best: Forth, Lisp/Scheme, Ruby, R, Derive, Axiom, Erlang
Mediocre: Assembler, FORTRAN, Pascal, MATLAB
Worst: C, C++, Java, BASIC, Perl
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 07:28
(Received via mailing list)
Ryan D. wrote:
> male 34 seattle wa
>
> bg (chrono): logo, basic, hypercard, forth, pascal, c, object pascal,
> modula-2, smalltalk (finally fell in love with a language),

The only language I ever truly fell in love with was Lisp 1.5. It's been
downhill ever since. :)
John C. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 07:52
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

> The only language I ever truly fell in love with was Lisp 1.5. It's been
> downhill ever since. :)

Well, it was the lisp in lisp interpreter in the original Mcarthy book
that I fell in love with. (No, you can't have my copy)

However the joy in Joy interpreter trumps even that.
   http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/phimvt/joy/jp...

Ps: Your taste is Impeccable Sir.






John C.                             Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
Tait Electronics                        Fax   : (64)(3) 359 4632
PO Box 1645 Christchurch                Email : 
removed_email_address@domain.invalid
New Zealand
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 09:10
(Received via mailing list)
John C. wrote:
>
> New Zealand
>
>
>
I do have the MIT Press Lisp 1.5 manual and McCarthy's two papers on
Lisp. I more or less don't like Common Lisp -- it's just too bloated. So
I think I'm more a Schemer now.
Martin DeMello (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 09:40
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/18/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> >
> I do have the MIT Press Lisp 1.5 manual and McCarthy's two papers on
> Lisp. I more or less don't like Common Lisp -- it's just too bloated. So
> I think I'm more a Schemer now.

Which dialect? I've gotten into Chicken lately and it's very pleasant to
use.

martin
Damjan R. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 10:02
Male 43years
Begin with basic on C64
My first job was IBM-S3 and RPG II, continued to IBM AS400 RPG 400, CL.
Learned about PC started with Turbo Pascal then Clipper, some REXX on
OS/2.
After that Lotus Notes and Java.
Curently working as a system administrator and Ruby rocks for everyday
scripting.
Location:Slovenia, on the sunny side of the Alps.

by
TheR
Michael U. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 10:27
(Received via mailing list)
male, 40y
PhD in mathematics, working on applications of AI
languages I used by preference:
    -1 Basic
    0  Pascal
    +1 Assembler, C
    +2 Ruby, C++ (yes, I know I'm weird)
location: just south of Vienna, Austria
Alex Y. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 11:36
(Received via mailing list)
Might as well chuck my hat in here...

male 28y
bg (in strict chronological order): Sinclair BASIC (still got my ZX
Spectrum+ somewhere); Z80 assembler; Commodore BASIC (still got my C64
somewhere); C; ARM assembler (on an ARM3, then ARM4 - still my favourite
instruction set *ever*); Delphi (taught at college, still pine for the
GUI designer); Perl, PHP, SQL (to pay my way *through* said college);
Java; Python; Ruby; C#; C++
wk: web apps, custom search engines, document classification, 3D
modeling plugins, volumetric data presentation
location: London, UK
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 12:37
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/17/07, Robert K. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> On 17.07.2007 18:48, Robert D. wrote:
> > On 7/17/07, SonOfLilit <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> >> m18y, Technion, Haifa.
> > My respect I'd probably added 10 years when I was your age;)
>
> And how much did you add in *your* age? ;-)
I wish I had ;)
Robert K. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 12:52
(Received via mailing list)
2007/7/18, Robert D. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid>:
> On 7/17/07, Robert K. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> > On 17.07.2007 18:48, Robert D. wrote:
> > > On 7/17/07, SonOfLilit <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> > >> m18y, Technion, Haifa.
> > > My respect I'd probably added 10 years when I was your age;)
> >
> > And how much did you add in *your* age? ;-)
> I wish I had ;)

Uh, oh *cough cough* I'm sorry. :-))

robert
Andreas S. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 13:01
- 23y
- Germany
- work: EE student, admin of my website http://www.mikrocontroller.net
- started with QBASIC, GFA Basic
- use: C, Assembler, PHP, Ruby, Matlab, VHDL
- tried out: Perl, Lisp, awk, Java, C++
- have made a few attempts with functional languages (Erlang, Ocaml),
but didn't get very far because I didn't really have a use for them
Dido S. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 13:19
(Received via mailing list)
male 31y
bg: (in more or less chronological order) C-64 BASIC, 6502 assembler,
x86 assembler, C on MS-DOS, off to C on Solaris and GNU/Linux, today
doing lots and lots of Ruby work, OCaml, Lisp, Objective-C, and a
little Java on the side.
work: enterprise applications, web applications, distributed systems
location: Manila, Philippines
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 13:22
(Received via mailing list)
A first
résumé:

vg age: 34.3125
Avg sex: 0.00*female + 1.00*male :(
cpp ... 12  70.59%
c ... 11  64.71%
java ... 9  52.94%
basic ... 9  52.94%
python ... 7  41.18%
pascal ... 6  35.29%
sql ... 6  35.29%
perl ... 5  29.41%
lisp ... 5  29.41%
csq ... 4  23.53%
scheme ... 4  23.53%
assembler ... 3  17.65%
obj_c ... 3  17.65%
php ... 3  17.65%
bash ... 3  17.65%
smalltalk ... 3  17.65%
logo ... 2  11.76%
awk ... 2  11.76%
haskell ... 2  11.76%
obj_pascal ... 2  11.76%
apple_script ... 2  11.76%
forth ... 2  11.76%
fortran ... 2  11.76%
R ... 1  5.88%
joy ... 1  5.88%
turing ... 1  5.88%
neko ... 1  5.88%
ada ... 1  5.88%
algol ... 1  5.88%
hypercard ... 1  5.88%
clos ... 1  5.88%
dcl ... 1  5.88%
erlang ... 1  5.88%
prolog ... 1  5.88%
sm ... 1  5.88%
csh ... 1  5.88%
mortran ... 1  5.88%
pl1 ... 1  5.88%
ruby ... 1  5.88%
pl_sql ... 1  5.88%
sh ... 1  5.88%
xslt ... 1  5.88%
dylan ... 1  5.88%
modula_2 ... 1  5.88%
eiffel ... 1  5.88%

I transformed Delphi into pascal and added awk and java to my list as
I did lots of stuff with it, but well dunno why omitted it.

Personally I am surprised to be the only having used Ada and I am even
more surprised that Lua missed out at all (I was hoping to see Io and
Self too).
I am sure there is some folks having experience with these :)

Cheers
Robert
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 13:24
(Received via mailing list)
Sorry for top posting this is only a reminder where to start updating
the data, please ignore.
Andreas S. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 13:26
Robert D. wrote:
> Personally I am surprised to be the only having used Ada

Oops, I forgot to add Ada to my "tried out" list. I didn't do anything
real with it, but now I'm using VHDL, which is syntactically very
similar (though used completely differently).
Michael U. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 13:42
(Received via mailing list)
Robert D. wrote:
> A first résumé:
>
>
> vg age: 34.3125
> Avg sex: 0.00*female + 1.00*male :(
> cpp ... 12  70.59%
--snip--
> ruby ... 1  5.88%
--snap--

> Personally I am surprised to be the only having used Ada and I am even
> more surprised that Lua missed out at all (I was hoping to see Io and
> Self too).

I'm more surprised that Ruby only got one vote. I thought I saw it
mentioned more than once. I guess at my age, I can't trust my memory
anymore.
:-)
Lionel B. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 13:45
(Received via mailing list)
Andreas S. wrote the following on 18.07.2007 11:26 :
> Robert D. wrote:
>
>> Personally I am surprised to be the only having used Ada
>>
>
> Oops, I forgot to add Ada to my "tried out" list.

Same here. I didn't code anything in Ada, but I had to learn it to code
some source analysis utilities in C++.
This makes me remember some other langages: I've done some assembler
(mainly x86 but 6809 too) work for fun or study, was briefly introduced
to Logo and used Matlab regularly at one point.

Lionel.
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 13:55
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, Jul 17, 2007 at 10:26:45PM +0900, Robert D. wrote:
> Ok I'll put my cards on the table

Okay, here goes . . .

32yo Male, Colorado

Counting only languages in which I could ever do more than "Hello
World",
this is my programming linguistic background (in chronological order):
  Atari BASIC
  QBASIC
  C/C++
  Logo
  DOS batch files (shouldn't really count, but what the heck)
  JavaScript
  Visual C++ (distinct from C/C++, really) and Visual Basic (ditto for
BASIC)
  Perl
  PHP
  Java, Object Pascal (Delphi), and Objective C, in no particular order
  Python and bash, roughly simultaneously
  Ruby
  Logo again -- UCBLogo to be specific
  OCaml
  tcsh
  C again

Some of those I couldn't do *much* more than "Hello World".  In no
particular order, these are languages in which I could and/or can "get
by" if I had/have to:
  C
  UCBLogo
  DOS batch files
  Object Pascal (Delphi)
  bash
  Ruby
  tcsh

These are the languages in which I could/can actually claim some real
competence:
  JavaScript
  Perl
  PHP
. . . though I'm getting awfully close with Ruby.  Looking at that
(somewhat sad) list of three languages, these are all languages for
which
I get paid currently, and have for a while.  Of them, Perl is the only
one I really like.

In no particular order, languages I really like from the first list:
  UCBLogo
  Perl
  Objective C
  Ruby
  OCaml

Those languages that are like a poker in the eye for me:
  any BASIC
  C++
  DOS batch files
  Visual $foo
  PHP
  Java
  Python (yes, really)

My work, at present, consists mostly of industry and technology analysis
and consulting, web development, small business disaster recovery, and
writing.  I guess things are at this point leaning toward increasing the
writing slice of the pie at the expense of the rest of it, and coding
more and more often on projects I like rather than those that I "need"
to
pay the bills (since writing takes up the slack).

The professional writing I do is, of course, technology related -- at
the
moment, increasingly oriented toward security-related topics.  I
wouldn't
be surprised if I ended up finding vulnerabilities for a living, at the
rate I'm going.  Ruby strikes me as an excellent tool toward that end.
It's also heaps of fun to use.

Did I cover everything?  I might have forgotten a language or two along
the way.
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 14:23
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/18/07, Michael U. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> > Personally I am surprised to be the only having used Ada and I am even
> > more surprised that Lua missed out at all (I was hoping to see Io and
> > Self too).
>
> I'm more surprised that Ruby only got one vote. I thought I saw it
> mentioned more than once. I guess at my age, I can't trust my memory
> anymore.
> :-)

LOL
I do not count ruby, I assume 100%, but one slipped into the data, thx
for pointing it out.
Alexandru E. Ungur (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 15:34
(Received via mailing list)
male 30y

bg: Pascal, x86 Assembly, Perl, Linux shell scripting, JavaScript,
Delphi,
Visual Basic, Visual FoxPro, PHP, Ruby, Lua, Python, Scheme, Erlang, C.

wk: web programming (mostly Ruby, PHP), Linux sysadmin (making good use
of
Ruby here as well).

Cheers,
Alex
Jesper (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 15:41
(Received via mailing list)
Male, 32 years old. Location: Malmö, Scania (sweden).

bg: 6502/6510 assembler (C64), 680x0 assembler (Amiga), C, C++
wk: sysadmin, using Perl, Ruby & PHP at work.
Daniel S. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 17:30
(Received via mailing list)
Nice initiative!

male 20y
bg:
 - PHP (yuck!)
 - JavaScript
 - C
 - C# (yuck as well!)
 - Java (the yuck goes without saying)
 - Standard ML (I love it!)
 - Assembler (just a little bit)

wk: studying CS at the University of Copenhagen
location: Copenhagen, Denmark


Cheers,
Daniel
Morton G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 17:39
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 17, 2007, at 11:24 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

> Dang ... someone beat me out for "doing it the longest". Not by much,
> though.

I also began programming on an IBM 650 (in 1958). Oh, the fond
memories: the glow of vacuum tubes, SOAP II [*], clearing card jams
from both ends of the reader/punch unit, the 25-millisecond latency
of drum memory :)

By 1961, I had already moved to the IBM 1620, a great improvement
over the 650. But my all-time favorite computer remains the DEC
PDP-11 (the original, not the VAX-11).

Regards, Morton

[*] an ancient assembly language -- nothing to do with XML messaging.
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 17:48
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/18/07, Morton G. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> By 1961, I had already moved to the IBM 1620, a great improvement
> over the 650. But my all-time favorite computer remains the DEC
> PDP-11 (the original, not the VAX-11).
Playing dungeon and dragons or something like that on it, you see I
have been a very diligent student, that was in 83/84 if I am not
mistaken, great machine indeed, although I was not good enough in HW
to judge it for myself.
R.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 18:37
(Received via mailing list)
Michael U. wrote:
>
>
Hmmm ... AI but not Lisp?
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 18:41
(Received via mailing list)
Martin DeMello wrote:
>
>
I haven't settled on an implementation yet. Chicken is a good one, but
PLT has an excellent user interface (Dr Scheme), gambit-c has the
Erlang-like Termite for concurrent programming, Guile is ubiquitous, and
I think there is another one that's the fastest available because it has
the best compiler. At one point last year I installed all of the ones in
Gentoo's Portage repository to have a shootout, but I got nudged back
into Ruby shortly afterwards.

I think when all the smoke clears, it will be Gambit, though, because of
Termite. They're on the edge of a major release -- I think they're at
release candidate stage now.
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 18:52
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/18/07, Stefan R. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> I suspect he didn't add, I guess he's really 55 ;-p
Is it my wisdom that betrayed me ;)
Yukihiro M. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 18:55
(Received via mailing list)
Hi,

In message "Re: Taking the bull by its horns [was background]"
    on Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:38:16 +0900, John C.
<removed_email_address@domain.invalid> writes:

|bg: 
fortran,mortran,algol,basic,pascal,dcl,c,c++,lisp,scheme,assembler,perl,awk,sh,R,joy,sql,...

Just curious, but what is mortran?  Fortran for Martians?

...Sorry, I couldn't resist after seeing your name.  I was a fan of
Burroughs novel when I was young.

              matz.

male 42y
bg: BASIC,FORTRAN,Pascal,C,C++,Emacs Lisp,Scheme,AWK,sh,Perl,...and
Ruby. (Yey)
wk: Open Source Developer
location: Matsue-city Shimane-prefecture, Japan
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 19:04
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/18/07, Damjan R. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
> Location:Slovenia, on the sunny side of the Alps.
I know that will reveal my origin, but what the heck ;)
That is *not funny*, well that's why I left;)
<snip>
R.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 19:13
(Received via mailing list)
Yukihiro M. wrote:
> Hi,
>
> In message "Re: Taking the bull by its horns [was background]"
>     on Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:38:16 +0900, John C. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> 
writes:
>
> |bg: 
fortran,mortran,algol,basic,pascal,dcl,c,c++,lisp,scheme,assembler,perl,awk,sh,R,joy,sql,...
>
> Just curious, but what is mortran?  Fortran for Martians?

Mortran was Macro Fortran. It came out of one of the California
"high-energy physics" labs, and it was a pre-processor that generated
Fortran code. I never used it, but it had some features that were
missing from the prevalent Fortran dialect of the day, Fortran 66, that
later made it into the mainstream Fortran language.

> male 42y
> bg: BASIC,FORTRAN,Pascal,C,C++,Emacs Lisp,Scheme,AWK,sh,Perl,...and Ruby. (Yey)
> wk: Open Source Developer
> location: Matsue-city Shimane-prefecture, Japan

You left off CLU. ;)
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 19:22
(Received via mailing list)
Last résumé;)

Avg age: 34.3125
Avg sex: 0.00*female + 1.00*male :(

Grouped languages thus values > 100% are normal
c/c++ ... 37  142.31%
java ... 16  61.54%
lisp/scheme/CLOS ... 14  53.85%
basic ... 14  53.85%
pascal/delphi ... 13  50.00%
perl ... 10  38.46%
assembler ... 9  34.62%
python ... 9  34.62%
php ... 8  30.77%
sql ... 8  30.77%
shell ... 7  26.92%
javascript ... 6  23.08%
obj_c ... 5  19.23%
csq ... 5  19.23%
logo ... 4  15.38%
(O)Caml ... 4  15.38%
awk ... 3  11.54%
prolog ... 3  11.54%
visual_basic ... 3  11.54%
ada ... 3  11.54%
smalltalk ... 3  11.54%
vhdl ... 2  7.69%
erlang ... 2  7.69%
hypercard ... 2  7.69%
eiffel ... 2  7.69%
rexx ... 2  7.69%
haskell ... 2  7.69%
caml ... 2  7.69%
apple_script ... 2  7.69%
fortran ... 2  7.69%
forth ... 2  7.69%
and : dylan, lua, pl1, dos_batch, matlab, dcl, visual_fox_pro, turing,
sm, joy, cppi, visual_cpp, lotus_notes, modula_2, algol, R, tcl,
mortran, sh, xslt, neko, elang, clipper, pl_sql

and furthermore - hopefully you can swim -- the average Ruby ML
contributer is leaving somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean, not far off
the shore of the East Coast though -- it's a guess ;).

This was great fun, thx to all for replying, keep doing so by all
means but I do not think I will update the stats, unless we get a lady
of course ;)

Cheers
Robert

Legal Notice: I have not recorded any personal data only a list of
ages and prog languages and no association of that to any name or
other entity identifying a person.
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 19:22
(Received via mailing list)
oops I guess there is no language called cppi, so that will just add
to C/C++ score :(
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 20:03
(Received via mailing list)
Erratum
<snip>
 logo ... 4  15.38%
> (O)Caml ... 4  15.38%
(O)Caml ... 6  23.08%
<snip>
caml ... 0 --> (O)Caml
Martin DeMello (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 20:37
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/18/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> I think there is another one that's the fastest available because it has
> the best compiler. At one point last year I installed all of the ones in

Stalin, but it's R4RS and seems to be more an academic research
project than anything that has an actual community around it. The USP
is that it does whole-program optimisation.

martin
F. Senault (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 21:12
(Received via mailing list)
Le 17 juillet à 15:26, Robert D. a écrit :

> Ok I'll put my cards on the table

So...

Male, 32.

Background : Started with BASIC on a TRS-80 when I was 5, then a long
  string of languages, including BASIC variants, Pacal variants,
  Clipper, C, (Visual) C++, Visual Basic, Delphi, shells, javascript,
  perl, and a passing interest in anything I can get my hands on.

Work : Systems / network administrator (in a multi-platform environment,
  mostly BSD/Linux/Windows), software architect and programmer, VB6
  first and foremost (ew), then Perl, Ruby, Ruby on Rails and whatever
  is at hand for the task.

Hobbies : My small part of the internet, running news servers (hi
  list !), and (right now) trying to make smallish games in Ruby and
  Ruby on Rails...  (And stuff outside computers, of course.)

Location : Liège, Belgium ; will travel for food and alcohol...  }:>

Fred
Still 100% males.  :|
darren kirby (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 21:14
(Received via mailing list)
quoth the Robert D.:

> Personally I am surprised to be the only having used Ada and I am even
> more surprised that Lua missed out at all (I was hoping to see Io and
> Self too).
> I am sure there is some folks having experience with these :)

Well, I for one taught myself Lua. Couple things about it: 1. It is very
fast.
In some trivial tests I have done it runs with roughly 50% the speed of
C,
which means it edges out Perl as fastest "interpreted" language in my
books.
And 2. It uses 'silly' 1 based arrays (tables). See the other thread
about
that ;)

I have also written a couple of trivial programs in Io. See [0] for one.
It
seems quite an interesting language, but I cannot get past the
poor/incomplete documentation to write anything more complex...

Keep in mind I am strictly a hobbiest, and have not programmed in _any_
language professionally.

For the record:

m 30 yo
Know well: (ba)sh, PHP, Perl, Python, Ruby, Scheme, Lua
Know enough to get by: C/C++, Java, MIPS asm
Have played with: Io, Ada, Haskell, Erlang, OCaml
Work: Currently unemployed
Location: Currently incarcerated in Edmonton Alberta

No, I'm not in jail, But I am here against my will ;)

> Cheers
> Robert

-d

[0] http://badcomputer.org/unix/code/eratos/io1.bot
Yukihiro M. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 21:17
(Received via mailing list)
Hi,

In message "Re: Taking the bull by its horns [was background]"
    on Thu, 19 Jul 2007 00:11:28 +0900, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky"
<removed_email_address@domain.invalid> writes:

|> bg: BASIC,FORTRAN,Pascal,C,C++,Emacs Lisp,Scheme,AWK,sh,Perl,...and Ruby. (Yey)

|You left off CLU. ;)

No, I've never used CLU in my life.  I just read the article on it,
and that article influenced me a lot in Ruby's design.  For the same
reason, I left off Smalltalk, although I actually used it for 3 days
in my school days.

              matz.
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 21:18
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
> the 650. But my all-time favorite computer remains the DEC PDP-11 (the
> original, not the VAX-11).
>
> Regards, Morton
>
> [*] an ancient assembly language -- nothing to do with XML messaging.

You missed the fun part -- it was an /optimizing/ assembler.
Travis D Warlick Jr (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 21:27
(Received via mailing list)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

male 21y
bg: Ruby, Perl, PHP, Java, C/C++, Prolog, Scheme, Smalltalk, Asm, web
stuff, sh, sql, a tiny bit of COBOL
wk: SWEN student; Lead Developer, Operis Systems
loc: Auburn, Alabama/USA

- --
  Travis W.

  "Programming in Java is like dealing with your mom --
   it's kind, forgiving, and gently chastising.
   Programming in C++ is like dealing with a disgruntled
   girlfriend -- it's cold, unforgiving, and doesn't tell
   you what you've done wrong."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFGnkvOWvapaOIz2YYRAnTGAJ0X3AZKq+OZiPD4fxzNmrtYPD+qEgCeNQHj
CcVOcFMcl/dvRrCwkOGeSBg=
=Xq1d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
James G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 21:55
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 18, 2007, at 12:10 PM, F. Senault wrote:

>   Clipper, C, (Visual) C++, Visual Basic, Delphi, shells, javascript,
>   Ruby on Rails...  (And stuff outside computers, of course.)
>
> Location : Liège, Belgium ; will travel for food and alcohol...  }:>

Wow Fred, you and I have a lot in common.  I manage the Ruby Gateway,
as you know from providing us an account and putting up with my
bothersome emails, and I'm a big game nut.

I'm always messing with some Ruby game, though most of them never
reach the sharing point.  Any pointer to your game efforts?

----------

Male, 31

Languages:  BASIC (I read a manual that came with my ColecoVision
Adam), Pascal (first on my TI-85 and later in school), C and C++,
Java, Perl, Ruby, Lisp, and Lua.

Work:  Contract Ruby and Rails programming.

Hobbies:  More Ruby.  I'm hopeless.

Location:  Edmond, Oklahoma, U.S.A.

James Edward G. II
Lloyd L. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 21:59
Robert K. wrote:
> PS: Robert, IMHO Pascal is a great language for learning to program
> because it omits the dimension of OO and allows to focus on proper
> structuring. Also, it's far more readable than C.

Actually, Delphi came out 12 years ago and Pascal was object oriented
before that.

Just keeping the record straight.
Anthony E. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 22:35
(Received via mailing list)
male 30y

bg: BASIC on VMS, Perl, Java, SQL, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, Ruby,
Erlang
wk: not so mild-mannered project manager during the day, data
warehouse superhero by night
location: Melbourne, FL
unknown (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 22:53
(Received via mailing list)
Hi --

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007, Robert D. wrote:

> Hope to see lots of others

Male, 48yo.  Residence: New Jersey, USA.

Professionally trained cellist.  BA in German and History of Art
(Yale, 1982).  Ph.D. in Cinema Studies (New York University, 1989).
Member of the Dept. of Communication, Seton Hall University,
1992-2005.

Started programming in 1972: BASIC on PDP-8, assembler and dabbling in
misc. languages on PDP-10.  Didn't do much from 1974-1990.
1990-present: at least some non-trivial stuff in x86 assembler, C,
(ba)sh, Perl, Elisp, SGML, DSSSL, XML, XSLT, (La)TeX, Ruby.  Also bits
of Eiffel, Scheme; glances at Java, C++, and others.  *nix (esp.
Linux) admin (for self and others) since 1993.


David

--
* Books:
   RAILS ROUTING (new! http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0321509242)
   RUBY FOR RAILS (http://www.manning.com/black)
* Ruby/Rails training
     & consulting:  Ruby Power and Light, LLC (http://www.rubypal.com)
F. Senault (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 23:11
(Received via mailing list)
Le 18 juillet 2007 à 19:54, James Edward G. II a écrit :

> On Jul 18, 2007, at 12:10 PM, F. Senault wrote:
>
>> Le 17 juillet à 15:26, Robert D. a écrit :

>> Hobbies : My small part of the internet, running news servers (hi
>>   list !), and (right now) trying to make smallish games in Ruby and
>>   Ruby on Rails...  (And stuff outside computers, of course.)
>>
>> Location : Liège, Belgium ; will travel for food and alcohol...  }:>
>
> Wow Fred, you and I have a lot in common.  I manage the Ruby Gateway,
> as you know from providing us an account and putting up with my
> bothersome emails,

I've had worse users.  (The user is the enemy (tm).)

> and I'm a big game nut.

Yup.  I have lots of game DVDs lying around, so, when I'm not trying to
write mine, I've got something to keep myself occupied...

> I'm always messing with some Ruby game, though most of them never
> reach the sharing point.

Heh.  s/ Ruby// in your sentence, and you are me.  For a few dozen games
I've began since I touched a computer, I believe there's only one that
could be considered finished.  (I was twelve, I had time !  Now, I try
to finish first the stuff I'm paid for, it has some nice points.  Like
being actually paid.)

> Any pointer to your game efforts?

Not yet.  Soon !

(It will be a multi-player espionnage game, where the player has the
role of the head of the black-ops section of the local spy organization.
The main focus will revolve around the hiring, training and management
of the operatives...)

Fred
James G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 23:17
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 18, 2007, at 2:10 PM, F. Senault wrote:

> of the operatives...)
Sounds great.  Keep us posted!

James Edward G. II
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 23:32
(Received via mailing list)
Lloyd L. wrote:
> Robert K. wrote:
>> PS: Robert, IMHO Pascal is a great language for learning to program
>> because it omits the dimension of OO and allows to focus on proper
>> structuring. Also, it's far more readable than C.
>
> Actually, Delphi came out 12 years ago and Pascal was object oriented
> before that.

No, Borland Turbo Pascal was. Borland Turbo Pascal != Pascal.
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-18 23:48
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/18/07, Lloyd L. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Robert K. wrote:
> > PS: Robert, IMHO Pascal is a great language for learning to program
> > because it omits the dimension of OO and allows to focus on proper
> > structuring. Also, it's far more readable than C.
>
> Actually, Delphi came out 12 years ago and Pascal was object oriented
> before that.
>
> Just keeping the record straight.

Well no that I am done with the bookkeeping I can answer this :)

I was very greatfull to learn programming with Pascal, but nowadays it
seems a little bit out fashioned nevertheless, maybe one should learn
with Smalltalk nowadays, or even Ruby, a subset of Ruby to begin
with...
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 00:08
(Received via mailing list)
On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 03:00:53AM +0900, Lloyd L. wrote:
> Robert K. wrote:
> > PS: Robert, IMHO Pascal is a great language for learning to program
> > because it omits the dimension of OO and allows to focus on proper
> > structuring. Also, it's far more readable than C.
>
> Actually, Delphi came out 12 years ago and Pascal was object oriented
> before that.
>
> Just keeping the record straight.

Technically, Object Pascal and certain other Pascal extensions are
object
oriented, but plain-vanilla Pascal is not an OO language.  There's still
a (not technically obsolete) Pascal language out there.
John C. (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 02:24
(Received via mailing list)
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007, Yukihiro M. wrote:

> In message "Re: Taking the bull by its horns [was background]"
>    on Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:38:16 +0900, John C. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> 
writes:
>
> |bg: 
fortran,mortran,algol,basic,pascal,dcl,c,c++,lisp,scheme,assembler,perl,awk,sh,R,joy,sql,...
>
> Just curious, but what is mortran?  Fortran for Martians?

"More Fortran"
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortran

Basically a fat macro preprocessor in front of ordinary Fortran.

Or Where I Learnt that "Syntactic Sugar has no (semantic) food value."

Or "A Pig wearing lipstick is still a pig and you really really don't
want to kiss it."

> ...Sorry, I couldn't resist after seeing your name.  I was a fan of
> Burroughs novel when I was young.

I get quite a lot of that... So I couldn't resist hacking the "X-"
headings in my mailer a few years ago. (Tell your mail reader to show
you the full headers on one of my posts to see what I mean.)

Pity I don't have any of the scantily clad busty girls from the book
covers...

> male 42y
> bg: BASIC,FORTRAN,Pascal,C,C++,Emacs Lisp,Scheme,AWK,sh,Perl,...and Ruby. (Yey)

Ah yes, I do occasionally do bits of elisp and java as well. I forgot
to mention Java because...because it's so forgettable.

ps: Was the scoping of variables in Proc objects intended to mimic, in
a more controlled way, the dynamic scoping of Elisp? Or how did that
evolve? (I'm not complaining, I use that a fair amount in the same
sort of context as I would use Elisp dynamic scoping.)

> location: Matsue-city Shimane-prefecture, Japan

That's one of the things I really like about Ruby. I enjoy the
diversity of countries represented here. Makes it richer and better.

John C.                             Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
Tait Electronics                        Fax   : (64)(3) 359 4632
PO Box 1645 Christchurch                Email : 
removed_email_address@domain.invalid
New Zealand
Joel VanderWerf (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 02:32
(Received via mailing list)
m39y
bg: Apple and VIC20 BASIC, 6502 Asm, Pascal, Logo, Forth, Lisp, C,
Fortran(*), VAX Asm, 68K Asm, Mathematica, Dylan, C++, SHIFT, Perl,
Ruby, MATLAB/Simulink
wk: wireless in vehicles; simulation; Ruby/C/MATLAB
location: SF, CA

(* - it was at SLAC, so maybe it was really MORTRAN)
Morton G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 03:42
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 18, 2007, at 1:15 PM, John W. Kennedy wrote:

>> over the 650. But my all-time favorite computer remains the DEC
>> PDP-11 (the original, not the VAX-11).
>> Regards, Morton
>> [*] an ancient assembly language -- nothing to do with XML messaging.
>
> You missed the fun part -- it was an /optimizing/ assembler.

Optimizing, schmoptizing -- the only optimization it performed was to
take the drum latency into account when it assigned an instruction to
a location on the drum. You think computing the effect of drum
latency was the fun part? You sure have weird ideas of fun :)

SOAP = Semi-Optimizing Assembly Program (IIRC)

Regards, Morton
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 05:52
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
>>> By 1961, I had already moved to the IBM 1620, a great improvement
> the fun part? You sure have weird ideas of fun :)
>
> SOAP = Semi-Optimizing Assembly Program (IIRC)

Symbolic Optimizing", I rather think.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 06:59
(Received via mailing list)
Martin DeMello wrote:
>
I installed *every* Scheme that Gentoo has to offer this morning. That
gave me:

bigloo
chicken
drscheme
elk
gambit
gauche
guile
mit-scheme
scheme48
scm
stklos
tinyscheme

Sorry that Stalin isn't there. Well ... actually ... not really, given
that I'm a raging fan of Shostakovich. :)
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 07:05
(Received via mailing list)
darren kirby wrote:
> quoth the Robert D.:
>
>> Personally I am surprised to be the only having used Ada and I am even
>> more surprised that Lua missed out at all (I was hoping to see Io and
>> Self too).
>> I am sure there is some folks having experience with these :)
>
> Well, I for one taught myself Lua. Couple things about it: 1. It is very fast.
> In some trivial tests I have done it runs with roughly 50% the speed of C,
> which means it edges out Perl as fastest "interpreted" language in my books.

A good tweaked Forth will tie or beat that record. I guess it depends on
how you define "interpreted" as to whether Forth is legal. :)

> And 2. It uses 'silly' 1 based arrays (tables). See the other thread about
> that ;)

Forth uses politically correct 0-based arrays. Oh yeah ... it also
allows writing almost anywhere in memory. :)
Morton G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 09:17
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 18, 2007, at 9:50 PM, John W. Kennedy wrote:

> Morton G. wrote:
>> SOAP = Semi-Optimizing Assembly Program (IIRC)
>
> Symbolic Optimizing", I rather think.

I was depending on a nearly fifty-year old memory, but Google (whose
memory is better than mine :) tells me it's actually "Symbolic
Optimal Assembly Program".

Did you actually ever code in it?

Regards, Morton
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 09:49
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
>
> Did you actually ever code in it?
>
> Regards, Morton
>
>
Yes ... it was Symbolic Optimal Assembly Program, and yes, I actually
wrote code in it.

We also had something called FORTRANSIT. It translated from FORTRAN to
something else (GAT? IT?) and then to assembler.
Michael U. (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 11:59
(Received via mailing list)
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>>
>>
>>
> Hmmm ... AI but not Lisp?
>

I'm working on things like pattern recognition and document
classification. This involves lots of mathematics and number
crunching. Most software in this field is written in C-like
languages.

Btw, I tried learning Lisp several times, and never got the
hang of it. Although I like the pureness of concept, I just
can't write anything reasonably complex with it.

Regards,

Michael
James G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 16:53
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 19, 2007, at 2:58 AM, Michael U. wrote:

> Btw, I tried learning Lisp several times, and never got the hang of
> it. Although I like the pureness of concept, I just
> can't write anything reasonably complex with it.

I'm exactly the same way.  However, toying with Lisp did make me
appreciate s-expressions which I do now use quite a bit in other
programming.

James Edward G. II
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-07-19 19:10
(Received via mailing list)
On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 09:51:50PM +0900, James Edward G. II wrote:
> On Jul 19, 2007, at 2:58 AM, Michael U. wrote:
>
> >Btw, I tried learning Lisp several times, and never got the hang of
> >it. Although I like the pureness of concept, I just
> >can't write anything reasonably complex with it.
>
> I'm exactly the same way.  However, toying with Lisp did make me
> appreciate s-expressions which I do now use quite a bit in other
> programming.

S-expression syntax really does make for a great data format.  I think
its strict prefix notation form is largely to "blame" for that fact.
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-20 05:01
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
>
> Did you actually ever code in it?

Never had a 650 to work on, but read the manual once, a long, long, long
time ago. My first programs were written for the 7070, which was the
follow-on to the 650, but, since it used core, had a conventional
instruction counter instead of a next-instruction-address field.

Back in those days, the entire programmer's reference library for any
given line of IBM's mainframes could fit into a few 3-ring binders.
Morton G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-20 08:34
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 19, 2007, at 9:00 PM, John W. Kennedy wrote:

> Never had a 650 to work on, but read the manual once, a long, long,
> long time ago. My first programs were written for the 7070, which
> was the follow-on to the 650, but, since it used core, had a
> conventional instruction counter instead of a next-instruction-
> address field.

I wouldn't characterize any 70X/70X0 machine as a follow-on to the
650. They were a mainframe series derived from the Whirlwind project,
an IBM military contract. The R&D tab for the 70Xs was picked-up by
the US taxpayer. The 70Xs were vacuum tube machines and were
introduced at the same time as the 650 -- the 70X0s were the later
transistorized versions. I don't remember a 707, but if there was a
7070, I would expect a 707 existed as a predecessor. I did some
Fortran programming on a 709 and a 7040.

AFAIK, the 650 was developed as a business machine with IBM's own
funds by an entirely different engineering group than the Whirlwind
group. There is nothing in common between the two architectures. The
650 not only used dual-address instructions, it wasn't even a binary
machine. It was a dead-end architecture.

Regards, Morton
Sharon P. (Guest)
on 2007-07-20 13:52
(Received via mailing list)
male, 35, Australian(Canberra)

bg: Vic20 and other basics (yay!), C, Pascal, Assembler (8051,
68HC11, 80x86 and a few Pics [risc chips]), Delphi (from v2),  C++
(only a bit), Java
hello world, but not much more: python(nice, but not for me), lisp
(couldn't get past the emacs bit), scheme(...), erlang(just started,
love it), Objective C(Nice, but waiting for v2), squeak(sounds great,
love Avi Bryants philosophy for Seaside, but having difficulty
getting started), ... gee, I don't know.
wk: C, PowerBuilder (not much), pl-sql (lots and lots), vba
(occasionally), Ruby (regularly)

I'm sure there's stuff I've missed, but who cares.

Dave
Harry K. (Guest)
on 2007-07-20 18:55
(Received via mailing list)
Male
Preferred language (used for real work): Ruby
Others I've used for real work: BASIC, FORTRAN, C, C++, misc.
Studied but have not used for real work: Perl
Education: BS Electronics Engineering Technology, Japanese
Work: Electrical Engineer
Would like to find Ruby work.
Current location: Japan

Harry
Kyle S. (Guest)
on 2007-07-20 19:11
(Received via mailing list)
Ehh, why not?
30, male
First computer: Comodore 64
Preferred OS, any Unix or the like, usually a linux of my own crafting
or heavy modification.
Preferred languages: Ruby, C
Used at work: VBScript, VB.Net, JavaScript, PHP, Perl, bourne shell
script.
Studied but not used for work: C++, Java, Lisp, (Apple|Comodore|Q)Basic
Education: BS In mathematics, minor in CS
Work: currently test-developer.  Other times sysadmin, web
development, general development.
Current Location, Chicago suburbs


--Kyle
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-20 21:05
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
> taxpayer. The 70Xs were vacuum tube machines and were introduced at the
> same time as the 650 -- the 70X0s were the later transistorized
> versions.

A) There were a number of completely different 70x/70x0 lines, and, B)
the Whirlwind was done by MIT; I cannot at this moment find any evidence
that IBM was involved at all, although IBM later used parts of the
abandoned Whirlwind II specs for the noncommercial AN/FSQ-7. Development
of the 701 was certainly stimulated by the Korean War, but it and its
successors were never intended specifically for government use.

> I don't remember a 707, but if there was a 7070, I would
> expect a 707 existed as a predecessor. I did some Fortran programming on
> a 709 and a 7040.

That's simply wrong. There was no 707, and the 7070 /was/ the follow-on
to the 650, as any history of IBM's pre-360 computers will tell you. As
with the 701->704, 702->705, and 1401->1410 transitions, the machines
were not compatible, but general concepts and formats were. In this
case, the 7070 retained the basic 650 word architecture of ten decimal
digits plus a sign, and continued to use two-digit op-codes and
four-digit addresses. But the four digits that the 650 used for the
next-instruction address were replaced by two digits to select an index
register and two digits to select a subfield of the data word.

> AFAIK, the 650 was developed as a business machine with IBM's own funds
> by an entirely different engineering group than the Whirlwind group.
> There is nothing in common between the two architectures. The 650 not
> only used dual-address instructions, it wasn't even a binary machine. It
> was a dead-end architecture.

No, the 7070, 7072, and 7074 were follow-ons to it.

The IBM pre-360 commercial lines (-> incompatible; => compatible):

The main scientific line
701->704=>709=>7090=>7094=>7094 II
                 |
                 .->7040=>7044
(The 7040 line was a cheaper subset of the 7090 line. It did /not/
derive directly from the 704, as some have incorrectly concluded from
the number.)

The famous STRETCH supercomputer. Not truly a failure, but IBM lost
money on it when they gave refunds because it wasn't as good as
promised. Still, a lot of STRETCH concepts, reworked, went into the 360.
7030

Budget scientific and real-time.
1620=>1710
(The 1710 was a 1620 with command-and-control extras. There was also a
one-off 1720.)

The main business line.
702->705=>705 II=>705 III=>7080

Cheaper business machines (and upward extensions).
1401=>1460
  | |
  | .->1440
  |
  .->1410=>7010
(The 1440 was an almost-compatible cheaper version of the 1401; the only
incompatibility was in the handling of punched cards and printing. The
1410 was an incompatible upward extension of the line; machine code was
different, but carefully written assembler code could be portable. Two
more systems in the line were the 1240 and the 1420, which were
essentially 1401s with magnetic-ink reader/sorters in the same chassis.)

The first machine with a disk for business. Existing systems with added
disks were more successful.
350

Budget general-purpose machines.
650->7070=>7072=>7074

Almost a PC. Too little and too late to get much of a market.
610
Morton G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 02:45
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 20, 2007, at 1:05 PM, John W. Kennedy wrote:

> from the number.)
> also a one-off 1720.)
> (The 1440 was an almost-compatible cheaper version of the 1401; the
>
> Budget general-purpose machines.
> 650->7070=>7072=>7074
>
> Almost a PC. Too little and too late to get much of a market.
> 610

That's pretty complete. I've never read a history of IBM -- I was
going entirely from my memory of working with early IBM computers and
the oral tradition transmitted me by the many IBM employees I have
known over the years. BTW, you omitted the 1130, which I remember as
small  scientific/engineering machine roughly contemporary with the
1620. But we seem to have determined my memory isn't to be trusted.
So where do you place the 1130?

Regards, Morton
Rick D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 04:12
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/20/07, Morton G. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:

> That's pretty complete. I've never read a history of IBM -- I was
> going entirely from my memory of working with early IBM computers and
> the oral tradition transmitted me by the many IBM employees I have
> known over the years. BTW, you omitted the 1130, which I remember as
> small  scientific/engineering machine roughly contemporary with the
> 1620. But we seem to have determined my memory isn't to be trusted.
> So where do you place the 1130?

Well I'm working somewhat from memory, but the 1130 was later (1965)
than the 1620 (1959), the 1130 was introduced after the first 360s,
and used similar electronics packaging called SLT for solid logic
technology which was somewhere between discrete transistors (as the
1620 used) and ICs.

The architectures were completely different, the 1130 was a 16-bit
binary word machine while the 1630 was decimal using 6-bit BCD codes.
Numbers were represented by varying length strings of these BCD codes
addressed by the low order digit, and one of the extra bits (called
the flag bit) used to mark the high order digit, and if set on the low
order digit that the number was negative.

I know a little bit about the 1620 since it was the first computer I
encountered.

The main design goal of the 1620 was to be low priced (for the day)
that's something it did have in common with the 1130.

The first model of the 1620 had no hardware for addition, instead it
used a lookup table to add numbers right to left digit by digit.  The
IBM internal code name was Cadet, which is purported to have really
meant Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try.

When I interviewed with IBM right out of college, one of the guys I
talked to was named Jack Gibson, who's most known for the Gibson Mix
which was a benchmark used to compare processor speeds.  Jack was
quite tickled when I told him that I'd cut my teeth on the 1620.  He'd
been on the project management team on the 1620 having come from a
similar job on Stretch.  He said that when an engineer on Stretch
wanted approval to add a gate to the machine (gate here means a large
swinging rack holding circuit cards), and estimated a cost of say 10s
of thousands of dollars, the request was granted without much thought.
 But on the 1620, if an engineer came in and said he needed to add
some pull-up resistors to a few circuits, and that it would cost, say
10s of dollars, he was told to go back to the drawing board.

--
Rick DeNatale

My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/
Eleanor McHugh (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 04:39
(Received via mailing list)
Age: 37
First computer: RM 380Z (school), Oric-1 (home)
Preferred OS: OS X, FreeBSD, Windows XP - anything but Linux!
Languages: BASIC, FORTH, FORTRAN, C, Modula-2, ICON, Lisp, POP-11,
APL, Pascal, C++, Java, VB, Small, Ruby, UNICON, others I've
forgotten...
Preferred Languages: Ruby, BASIC, ICON
Education: BSc Applied Physics, MSc Information Systems
Work: as little as possible ;p
Location: London


Ellie

Being and Doing are merely useful abstractions for the 'time'-
dependent asymmetries of phase space.
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 04:46
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
> That's pretty complete. I've never read a history of IBM -- I was going
> entirely from my memory of working with early IBM computers and the oral
> tradition transmitted me by the many IBM employees I have known over the
> years. BTW, you omitted the 1130, which I remember as small
> scientific/engineering machine roughly contemporary with the 1620. But
> we seem to have determined my memory isn't to be trusted. So where do
> you place the 1130?

 From a marketing viewpoint, but not architecturally, it was the
follow-on to the 1620, and the 1800, which had mostly the same
instruction set as the 1130, was the follow-on to the 1710. (There was
also a 1500, which was designed for CAI applications.) But the 1130 was
post-360 -- IBM's first admission that the 360 couldn't handle every
niche -- so I didn't include it.

The 1620 and 1130 were both noted for their omissions. The original 1620
required an addition table and a multiplication table to be loaded by
the operating system, or the arithmetic opcodes wouldn't work. This is
why the 1620's code name, "Cadet", was elucidated by wags as "Can't Add,
Doesn't Even Try". The later, advanced models didn't need the addition
table, but still needed the other.

The 1130, on the other hand, was famous for its I/O facilities, which
were comparable to systems of the early 1950s. For example, the console
typewriter required the operating system to:
    read each stroke from the keyboard as a 12-bit code,
    translate the 12-bit code from a punched-card column to EBCDIC
      (the keyboard came straight off the 029 keypunch),
    translate the EBCDIC code to a code called Tilt-Rotate code, and
    send the Tilt-Rotate code to the "golf ball", to print the
character.
Bertram S. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 07:21
(Received via mailing list)
Hi,

Am Samstag, 21. Jul 2007, 09:38:18 +0900 schrieb Eleanor McHugh:
> Preferred OS: OS X, FreeBSD, Windows XP - anything but Linux!

BSD preferred is ok; but XP preferred to Linux??? Please
explain.

Btw:

m41y
bg (chonologically): Basic, 6502 Assembler, Pascal, C, PostScript,
  C++, ...[lots], TeX, METAFONT, Ruby
wk:Ruby,C++,Postgres,bash
gt:Strat,SG

Bertram
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 07:43
(Received via mailing list)
John W. Kennedy wrote:
> A) There were a number of completely different 70x/70x0 lines, and, B)
> the Whirlwind was done by MIT; I cannot at this moment find any evidence
> that IBM was involved at all, although IBM later used parts of the
> abandoned Whirlwind II specs for the noncommercial AN/FSQ-7. Development
> of the 701 was certainly stimulated by the Korean War, but it and its
> successors were never intended specifically for government use.

Considering the price and strategic nature of the technology, you pretty
much had to be a government agency or contractor thereof to get one in
their heyday. But yes, it was not government-specific. I imagine if some
rich movie star or musician had wanted one, they could have plunked down
the x.x million and IBM would have built them one. But they did suck at
synthesizing music. :)

> That's simply wrong. There was no 707, and the 7070 /was/ the follow-on
> to the 650, as any history of IBM's pre-360 computers will tell you. As
> with the 701->704, 702->705, and 1401->1410 transitions, the machines
> were not compatible, but general concepts and formats were. In this
> case, the 7070 retained the basic 650 word architecture of ten decimal
> digits plus a sign, and continued to use two-digit op-codes and
> four-digit addresses. But the four digits that the 650 used for the
> next-instruction address were replaced by two digits to select an index
> register and two digits to select a subfield of the data word.

As an aside, I worked at IBM during the transition from the 7000 series
to System\360. There was never a 707, and wouldn't have been because of
the airliner. The 704 was originally called the 703 but someone else
grabbed that number and so IBM moved to 704, forcing the follow-on to
the 702 into 705.

More notes from that period: in addition to FORTRAN, IBM developed a
language called COMTRAN for business programming. It never caught on,
though, mostly because Grace Murray Hopper and Univac and the Feds put
all their weight behind COBOL.

> No, the 7070, 7072, and 7074 were follow-ons to it.
The 7070 was kind of a half-breed business and scientific machine. Yes,
its architecture looked like a 650, but it had a real FORTRAN compiler,
tape drives and all the other mainframe peripherals.

>
> The IBM pre-360 commercial lines (-> incompatible; => compatible):
>
> The main scientific line
> 701->704=>709=>7090=>7094=>7094 II
>                 |
>                 .->7040=>7044
> (The 7040 line was a cheaper subset of the 7090 line. It did /not/
> derive directly from the 704, as some have incorrectly concluded from
> the number.)
The 709 was a short-lived beast. The architecture of the 709 and 7090
were almost identical, and IIRC there were less than a dozen 709s built.
The 709 was a tube machine and the 7090 was a transistor machine, so
most folks just kept their 704s going until they could get a 7090.

By the way, IIRC the 701 did not have hardware floating point or index
registers. It was essentially a 36-bit version of the Von Neumann IAS
machines like ILLIAC I, ORDVAC, JOHNNIAC, etc. Both floating point
arithmetic and index registers appeared in the 704. The 709/7090 added
I/O channels and indirect addressing, but not much else.

> Budget scientific and real-time.
> 1620=>1710
> (The 1710 was a 1620 with command-and-control extras. There was also a
> one-off 1720.)

This niche later was occupied by the 1130 and 1800, respectively.
> (The 1440 was an almost-compatible cheaper version of the 1401; the only
> incompatibility was in the handling of punched cards and printing. The
> 1410 was an incompatible upward extension of the line; machine code was
> different, but carefully written assembler code could be portable. Two
> more systems in the line were the 1240 and the 1420, which were
> essentially 1401s with magnetic-ink reader/sorters in the same chassis.)
The 7010 was pretty much upward compatible from the 1410.

> Budget general-purpose machines.
> 650->7070=>7072=>7074

I wouldn't call any 7000-series mainframe a "budget" system. The
hardware, power, cooling, weight and size were quite similar. They all
had "SMS" card logic and magnetic core memories, although some of the
core memories were air cooled and some were oil cooled. The closest
thing to a "budget mainframe" before System\360 was probably the 7010.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 07:49
(Received via mailing list)
John W. Kennedy wrote:
> follow-on to the 1620, and the 1800, which had mostly the same
> table, but still needed the other.
>
Ah, the 1130 -- the computer IBM named after lunch time. :)

Of course you know that the 1620 didn't have an adder. *Everybody* knows
that. Well ... the 1130 didn't have an adder *either*. It did adds using
shifts, ANDs and XORs. Seriously. IIRC the 1800 *did* have an adder.
Morton G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 08:04
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 20, 2007, at 8:45 PM, John W. Kennedy wrote:

> The 1620 and 1130 were both noted for their omissions. The original
> 1620 required an addition table and a multiplication table to be
> loaded by the operating system, or the arithmetic opcodes wouldn't
> work. This is why the 1620's code name, "Cadet", was elucidated by
> wags as "Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try". The later, advanced models
> didn't need the addition table, but still needed the other.

I remember the 1620. I wrote programs for it for about three years
beginning in 1962. The one I used must have been one of the
"advanced" models -- I remember putting multiplication table cards at
the front of my program decks, but not addition table cards. The
other thing I remember about about the 1620, besides its variable
word length, was its propensity for throwing its console typewriter's
zero key across the room. The console typewriter was a pre-golf-ball
model with lever keys. The zero key, by far the most used key, was
continually fatiguing off and going airborne.

Oh, yes, I just remembered. The 1620 brought two firsts to my
programming experience: a drum plotter and a disk storage unit. I
really enjoyed writing programs that did output to the plotter.

Regards, Morton
Morton G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 08:29
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 21, 2007, at 12:03 AM, Morton G. wrote:

> ... was its propensity for throwing its console typewriter's zero
> key across the room. The console typewriter was a pre-golf-ball
> model with lever keys. The zero key, by far the most used key, was
> continually fatiguing off and going airborne.

Let me say -- before somebody else points it out -- that I know the
console typewriter wasn't designed to do the job of a line printer. I
heard that song from the IBM maintenance guy every time he had to
install a new zero key. The company I worked for was too cheap to by
a line printer. We eventually got a drum plotter for the 1620, but we
never got a real printer for it.

Regards, Morton
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 08:46
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
> install a new zero key. The company I worked for was too cheap to by a
> line printer. We eventually got a drum plotter for the 1620, but we
> never got a real printer for it.
>
> Regards, Morton
>
>
When I worked in a 1620 shop, we had a 407 to generate the reports from
punched cards out of the 1620.
Cliff R. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 10:31
(Received via mailing list)
m30y (31 on Thursday!)
Background: basic (bbc/acorn/spectrum), visual basic, pascal, c, c++,
omnis, php, (x)html/css/etc, xml/xsl/xsd/etc, sql, javascript, bash,
perl, java, tcl, python, ruby (!).. touched on a few others such as C#
but not my thing..
Work: freelance software engineer / web developer / anything I feel like
getting into really..
Location: London, UK
Dan Z. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 12:19
(Received via mailing list)
Why the heck not...

Dan here, 22, Male.
Started with a bit of javascript, then bash, then awk,
then I changed my major to computer science =).

Learnt a lot of Java, some C++, but Ruby was the first language I felt
extremely comfortable with. Ruby taught me what it really meant to be
comfortable with a language. I  had been trying to learn Haskell (a very
good thing to study, but less than practical to use, for most people),
but I fell in love with Ruby while the Haskell books were in the mail...

I'm writing C++ nowadays (for the summer, at least), and it seems that
C++ with the Boost libraries and the STL certainly isn't as beautiful as
Ruby, but it gets the job done with its own equivalents for ary.each { }
and ary.map { }, delete_if, Proc.new, etc. Sometimes I even find strict
typing to save me effort in catching mistakes.

Work: student / intern, for now.

Dan
Daniel -. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 12:35
(Received via mailing list)
Another 30y.o. Male. ;)

My background is as a mechanical engineer.  while I was getting my
bachelor
I studied web development, HTML and javascript which started to get me
interested in programming.  I did another course in computing and learnt
a
bit of java and perl.  I wrote a couple of token applications in java
and
PHP for work.  I found ruby nearly two years ago and it has been my
obsession ever since.

By day I work as a mechanical design engineer, by night I hack on ruby
as
much as possible ;)

Daniel
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 13:26
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/21/07, Eleanor McHugh <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
So we have a lady and nobody seems to notice :(

Thanks for posting.
Robert K. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 13:31
(Received via mailing list)
On 21.07.2007 05:20, Bertram S. wrote:
> Am Samstag, 21. Jul 2007, 09:38:18 +0900 schrieb Eleanor McHugh:
>> Preferred OS: OS X, FreeBSD, Windows XP - anything but Linux!
>
> BSD preferred is ok;

Why?  Please explain!

> but XP preferred to Linux??? Please
> explain.

Cheers

  robert
Robert K. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 13:41
(Received via mailing list)
On 21.07.2007 11:24, Robert D. wrote:
>> Location: London
>>
> So we have a lady and nobody seems to notice :(

<warning>Generalizing from yourself might lead to wrong
conclusions.</warning>

:-)

Cheers

  robert



PS: I am not sure what exactly you expected.  Should we all embark on
courting Ellie?  That certainly would be funny...  Ok boys, GO! :-)))
*chuckle*
Sylvain J. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 13:43
(Received via mailing list)
male 26y
bg: C++ (lots of, and I do like it), perl, java, OCaml. Ruby is now my
language of choice, with C++ lying around for the performance-related
parts.
wk: phd student in robotics
location: Toulouse/France

Sylvain
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 13:48
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/21/07, Robert K. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> >> Work: as little as possible ;p
> >> Location: London
> >>
> > So we have a lady and nobody seems to notice :(
>
> <warning>Generalizing from yourself might lead to wrong
> conclusions.</warning>
Do you think I am of the gender gender? (Which would be?)
No seriously did somebody notice? :)
Alex Y. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 14:03
(Received via mailing list)
Robert D. wrote:
>> >> Education: BSc Applied Physics, MSc Information Systems
>> >> Work: as little as possible ;p
>> >> Location: London
>> >>
>> > So we have a lady and nobody seems to notice :(
>>
>> <warning>Generalizing from yourself might lead to wrong
>> conclusions.</warning>
> Do you think I am of the gender gender? (Which would be?)
> No seriously did somebody notice? :)
I think most of us realised a while ago, and didn't think it worth
mentioning :-)
Martin DeMello (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 14:27
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/21/07, Robert K. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> On 21.07.2007 05:20, Bertram S. wrote:
> > Am Samstag, 21. Jul 2007, 09:38:18 +0900 schrieb Eleanor McHugh:
> >> Preferred OS: OS X, FreeBSD, Windows XP - anything but Linux!
> >
> > BSD preferred is ok;
>
> Why?  Please explain!
>
> > but XP preferred to Linux??? Please
> > explain.

Nobody RExpects the Spanish Inquisition!

martin
Bertram S. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 16:19
(Received via mailing list)
Godwin's Law.
I. P. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 19:08
(Received via mailing list)
|Robert D.|

{
:gender => :male,
:age => 23.years,
:location => 'Saint-Petersburg, Russia',
:current_work => 'QA'
}

= Langs

- C++, x86 asm, Prolog (was taught, but never used)
- QBasic (learned myself, used few times and happily forgot)
- Object Pascal/Delphi, Java, Ruby (learned myself and is using
nowadays)
- XSLT/XSL:FO, TeX/LaTeX (does it counts?)
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 20:19
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/21/07, Alex Y. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> >> >> Preferred Languages: Ruby, BASIC, ICON
> I think most of us realised a while ago, and didn't think it worth
> mentioning :-)
No of course not, only in the context of the thread in question!
Peter S. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 20:27
(Received via mailing list)
In message <removed_email_address@domain.invalid>, Robert K. writes:
>Why?  Please explain!

BSD tends to be better engineered.  Look at it this way:

Imagine that a driver were to print an error message.  What would be the
chances that the message would unambiguously identify the driver?

Imagine that a device has been probed.  Will the probe message tell you
what the device is and give you a good hint as to the name of the
driver?
Will the message give you information about the device?

I've just spent a week buried in Linux kernel code.  The core Linux code
is
pretty good these days, but it would benefit a lot from more
standardized and
consistent kernel messages.  To be fair, some of the code I'm working
with
is vendor code that isn't in (or likely to be added to) the mainline
kernel,
and that code is usually the worst.

They're philosophically different.  In general, I prefer the BSD
approach,
which places greater weight on developers conforming their code a bit to
the kernel's style and standards at all levels, including displayed
messages.

-s
Morton G. (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 21:38
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 21, 2007, at 12:45 AM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

> When I worked in a 1620 shop, we had a 407 to generate the reports
> from
> punched cards out of the 1620.

A 407? I used one of those to print punched card output from the 650.
I remember it as an early to mid 1950s accounting machine which was
programmed by means of huge patch panels. Wasn't a 407 a bit retro in
the 1620 era? I think IBM offered a some kind of real line printer
for the 1620, but since my company never got one, I don't remember
any details.

Regards, Morton
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-21 21:52
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
>
> Regards, Morton
>
>
This was decidedly a low-budget shop. I think we got a line printer when
we upgraded to the 1130, but I don't really remember.
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-22 03:47
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
> Oh, yes, I just remembered. The 1620 brought two firsts to my
> programming experience: a drum plotter and a disk storage unit. I really
> enjoyed writing programs that did output to the plotter.

The only plotter IBM ever offered commercially, if I recall aright,
staying in the product line years after the rest of the system had
dropped out.
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-22 03:56
(Received via mailing list)
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>>
>> Regards, Morton
>>
>>
> This was decidedly a low-budget shop. I think we got a line printer when
> we upgraded to the 1130, but I don't really remember.

Yeah, but the 1132, the line printer of the 1130, was essentially a
lobotomized 407, anyway.
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-22 03:57
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
> On Jul 21, 2007, at 12:45 AM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>
>> When I worked in a 1620 shop, we had a 407 to generate the reports from
>> punched cards out of the 1620.
>
> A 407? I used one of those to print punched card output from the 650. I
> remember it as an early to mid 1950s accounting machine which was
> programmed by means of huge patch panels. Wasn't a 407 a bit retro in
> the 1620 era? I think IBM offered a some kind of real line printer for
> the 1620, but since my company never got one, I don't remember any details.

It could attach a 1443, which had maintenance problems of its own.

Keeping the good ol' 407 made sense in the 1620 context, Even on decimal
hardware, FORTRAN II was a kinda sucky language to do your
accounts-payable in. And you could use a 407 as an 80/80 lister to
desk-check your FORTRAN code before compiling--that was a very common
practice in those days.
--
John W. Kennedy
"There are those who argue that everything breaks even in this old dump
of a world of ours. I suppose these ginks who argue that way hold that
because the rich man gets ice in the summer and the poor man gets it in
the winter things are breaking even for both. Maybe so, but I'll swear I
can't see it that way."
   -- The last words of Bat Masterson
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-22 04:00
(Received via mailing list)
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> As an aside, I worked at IBM during the transition from the 7000 series
> to System\360. There was never a 707, and wouldn't have been because of
> the airliner. The 704 was originally called the 703 but someone else
> grabbed that number and so IBM moved to 704, forcing the follow-on to
> the 702 into 705.

I have heard otherwise, that the 703 was an intended offline tape
sorter/collator that never got to market.

> More notes from that period: in addition to FORTRAN, IBM developed a
> language called COMTRAN for business programming. It never caught on,
> though, mostly because Grace Murray Hopper and Univac and the Feds put
> all their weight behind COBOL.

...of which one of the most important sources was Commercial Translator
(as far as I know, "COMTRAN" was never an official name, though it was
widespread).
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-07-22 04:33
(Received via mailing list)
On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 09:18:14PM +0900, Bertram S. wrote:
> Godwin's Law.

Because he mentioned MS Windows . . . ?  That's amusing.
Rick D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-22 04:35
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/21/07, John W. Kennedy <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Morton G. wrote:
> > Oh, yes, I just remembered. The 1620 brought two firsts to my
> > programming experience: a drum plotter and a disk storage unit. I really
> > enjoyed writing programs that did output to the plotter.
>
> The only plotter IBM ever offered commercially, if I recall aright,
> staying in the product line years after the rest of the system had
> dropped out.

As I recall, the plotter was a bit of badge-engineering, it was really
from calcomp with an IBM badge.  It hooked up to the paper tape punch
interface.  You drove it from Fortran-II programs with the "punch
paper tape" command.

At UConn when they installed the plotter on the 1620, the old
paper-tape reader/punch was unused.  While I was there some grad
students in the EE/CS department commandeered it and hooked it up to
the department's  PDP-8 with the intent of writing a paper-tape
operating system.  I don't know that they ever got it fully working
though, IIRC the hitch was trying to come up with some handshaking
mechanism to slow the drive down.

--
Rick DeNatale

My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/
John W. Kennedy (Guest)
on 2007-07-22 04:50
(Received via mailing list)
Rick DeNatale wrote:
> As I recall, the [IBM 1627] plotter was a bit of badge-engineering, it was really
> from calcomp with an IBM badge.

That's always been my impression, though, never having been a plotter
guy, I can't swear to it.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-07-22 05:19
(Received via mailing list)
John W. Kennedy wrote:
> Rick DeNatale wrote:
>> As I recall, the [IBM 1627] plotter was a bit of badge-engineering, it
>> was really
>> from calcomp with an IBM badge.
>
> That's always been my impression, though, never having been a plotter
> guy, I can't swear to it.
>

Yep ... we had one and we even called it the Calcomp Plotter. :) I wrote
a couple of assembly-language plot routines for it that ran *rings*
around what it could do in FORTRAN.
Damjan R. (Guest)
on 2007-07-22 10:41
Robert D. wrote:
> On 7/18/07, Damjan R. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> <snip>
>> Location:Slovenia, on the sunny side of the Alps.
> I know that will reveal my origin, but what the heck ;)
> That is *not funny*, well that's why I left;)

Nc bat. Se vedno brcamo ;)

In Engslish. Don't worry. We are still alive and kicking.

by
TheR
Wolfgang N. (Guest)
on 2007-07-22 13:26
male 54y
Karlsruhe (Germany)

Systems: CDC-Cyber72, DEC-System10, Telefunken TR440, Siemens 7.760, IBM
370, Vax, DECstation2000/3000, sun workstations (sunOS, later solaris),
PCs (mainly DOS and Windows).

Languages (longer used): Algol60, Fortran, Assembler (several), Teco
programs, Bliss10, BCPL, early Lisps, Mortran, several macro processors,
Snobol4 (very long time), Icon, C, PL/I, C#, Perl5, Python, Ruby

Several other languages, but only for evaluation purposes or for short
time.

John C. wrote:
> ...mortran...
The first time I hear "Mortran" since a long time. We adapted Mortran to
the Telefunken TR440 computer around 1980 in the "Grossrechenzentrum für
die Wissenschaft in Berlin" (now "ZIB - Zuse Institut Berlin") as part
of out SAMOS project (Software Adaption and Maintenance Organization
System) and because we were responsible for porting SPSS, SCSS, NAG and
IMSL to German computers. I made several experiments using Mortran as
stand alone macro processor... - unfortunately the Language was real
"write only", much more than Teco programs.

Wolfgang Nádasi-Donner
Rick D. (Guest)
on 2007-07-26 02:45
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/21/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Yep ... we had one and we even called it the Calcomp Plotter. :) I wrote
> a couple of assembly-language plot routines for it that ran *rings*
> around what it could do in FORTRAN.


We had a neat little orbital-mechanics game for ours.  It drew two
crosses to represent the earth and the moon and started plotting an
earth orbit.  You fire thrusters with the sense switches on the
console to fire 'thrusters' to try to go to 'lunar' orbit.

--
Rick DeNatale

My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/

IPMS/USA Region 12 Coordinator
http://ipmsr12.denhaven2.com/

Visit the Project Mercury Wiki Site
http://www.mercuryspacecraft.com/
aiofe (Guest)
on 2007-07-26 02:45
(Received via mailing list)
Robert D. wrote:
> Robert
>

female 26 yr old
Dephi, Haskell, Prolog, Jess, Java, PHP, Perl, Python, Bash, C++, C, VB6
working as: Software Engineer
Location: brisbane, australia

:)

aiofe.
Kaldrenon (Guest)
on 2007-07-26 02:46
(Received via mailing list)
Yet another male (Maybe YAM will replace YAPH some day? *sigh*)

age: 19

background: BASIC, Visual Basic, the scripting language included in
TI-83 Plus graphing calculators, C++, Java

Presently learning: Perl and Ruby, with plans to learn Lisp, Lua, and
Ada. My goal is to become a true polyglot.

I'm currently enrolled at Rochester Institute of Technology and will
be starting my second year of a Bachelor's in Software Engineering
this fall. I've been interning at a government contractor this summer
doing a lot of grunt work with their file system, which has gotten me
some basic knowledge of regexps and all the nifty low-level stuff Perl
and Ruby offer.

Location: I sort of count double at the moment. I live near
Philadelphia, PA, but I go to college in Rochester, NY.
Pit C. (Guest)
on 2007-07-26 02:46
(Received via mailing list)
2007/7/22, Wolfgang Nádasi-donner <removed_email_address@domain.invalid>:
> male 54y
> Karlsruhe (Germany)

One more from Germany:

male 46y

First computer: Commodore PET 2001 (1978)
Best computer ever: NeXTcube (1989, still with me)

Languages used at work: Assembler (6502, 680x0), Basic, Visual Basic,
Pascal, Modula-2, PL/SQL, C, C++, Objective-C, Java, Common-Lisp,
Smalltalk, Shell scripting (awk, sed, ...), Perl, Python, Ruby

Currently using PL/SQL, Java and Ruby in my jobs as a freelancer.

Regards,
Pit
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:03
(Received via mailing list)
Kaldrenon wrote:

> I started on Perl because at the time it was the most un-Java language
> I knew about, and I know it's considered beneficial to learn languages
> that are very different from each other. I have since gained a lot of
> exposure to just how many language choices there are  (and better ones
> than Perl, at that), but I still would like to learn a little more
> about Perl from a pure academic interest/curiosity standpoint.
I wasn't aware there was anything "academic" in Perl -- it's just an
immensely practical and pragmatic way of getting stuff done on
computers. I don't know if there's anything inside a Perl implementation
(at least not until Parrot) that would be as Earth-shaking as, say, call
with concurrent continuation, tail recursion, or even what's in the Java
Virtual Machine.

> And perhaps when I said I want to learn Lisp I should have said "a
> Lisp", since I know there are many. Common Lisp and Scheme are the two
> I've heard the most about, so it will probably be one of those, but I
> haven't decided yet. By "better tutorial language" are you saying that
> Scheme is probably easier to learn? What makes it a good tutorial?

Well, for openers, "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs"
is based on Scheme. For another, Scheme cleaned up some weaknesses in
Lisp 1.5 that only with much wrangling got cleaned up in Common Lisp.
It's less bloated. The performance of a decent Scheme compiler is
probably about on a par with that of a decent Common Lisp compiler, and
the Common Lisp libraries and applications are much broader. But I don't
know of anything out there in the Common Lisp world like Dr. Scheme.
Kaldrenon (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:04
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 23, 12:30 pm, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" 
<removed_email_address@domain.invalid>
wrote:
>
> Unless there's a financial reason, I'd skip Perl and focus on Ruby. And
> Scheme is probably a better tutorial language than (Common) Lisp. Check
> out "Dr. Scheme", for example.

I started on Perl because at the time it was the most un-Java language
I knew about, and I know it's considered beneficial to learn languages
that are very different from each other. I have since gained a lot of
exposure to just how many language choices there are  (and better ones
than Perl, at that), but I still would like to learn a little more
about Perl from a pure academic interest/curiosity standpoint.

And perhaps when I said I want to learn Lisp I should have said "a
Lisp", since I know there are many. Common Lisp and Scheme are the two
I've heard the most about, so it will probably be one of those, but I
haven't decided yet. By "better tutorial language" are you saying that
Scheme is probably easier to learn? What makes it a good tutorial?
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:04
(Received via mailing list)
Chad P. wrote:
>>>>>
> I don't think it's necessary to wait for Perl 6 -- but I'm certainly
> looking forward to it.
>

I'm just totally bored with Perl -- Perl 4 was a great improvement over
awk, but I only maintain old code in it. I don't like to write new Perl
code, and I am not willing to wait for Perl 6 when there are other
languages I like -- Erlang, Ruby, and maybe Smalltalk (assuming a decent
Smalltalk shows up on the AMD64 in Gentoo before I die. :) Perl 5.8 is
good enough, Ruby and R are better
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:04
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 12:37:18PM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> computers. I don't know if there's anything inside a Perl implementation
> (at least not until Parrot) that would be as Earth-shaking as, say, call
> with concurrent continuation, tail recursion, or even what's in the Java
> Virtual Machine.

Considering Perl was created by a linguist, I'd think you might take
that
as a cue for how to approach looking for its academic value.  It has an
approach to language design all its own -- and it's an approach that has
proven incredibly practical for producing a language worth using.
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:04
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 01:30:23AM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> Unless there's a financial reason, I'd skip Perl and focus on Ruby. And
> Scheme is probably a better tutorial language than (Common) Lisp. Check
> out "Dr. Scheme", for example.

Unless you're Ed, I wouldn't skip Perl.  I actually like the the
language.  Why limit yourself?
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:04
(Received via mailing list)
Kaldrenon wrote:
> Yet another male (Maybe YAM will replace YAPH some day? *sigh*)
>
> age: 19
>
> background: BASIC, Visual Basic, the scripting language included in
> TI-83 Plus graphing calculators, C++, Java
>
> Presently learning: Perl and Ruby, with plans to learn Lisp, Lua, and
> Ada. My goal is to become a true polyglot.
Unless there's a financial reason, I'd skip Perl and focus on Ruby. And
Scheme is probably a better tutorial language than (Common) Lisp. Check
out "Dr. Scheme", for example.
Morton G. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:04
(Received via mailing list)
On Jul 23, 2007, at 12:30 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

> Kaldrenon wrote:
>>
>> Presently learning: Perl and Ruby, with plans to learn Lisp, Lua, and
>> Ada. My goal is to become a true polyglot.
>
> Unless there's a financial reason, I'd skip Perl and focus on Ruby.
> And
> Scheme is probably a better tutorial language than (Common) Lisp.
> Check
> out "Dr. Scheme", for example.

I second that. Scheme over Common Lisp for sure. Also, I'd go for
Eiffel over Ada, and I would recommend Forth -- anyone who aspires to
becoming a broad-band programmer should be familiar with Forth.

Regards, Morton
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:05
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/24/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>> TI-83 Plus graphing calculators, C++, Java
> >
> > I don't think it's necessary to wait for Perl 6 -- but I'm certainly
> > looking forward to it.
> >
>
> I'm just totally bored with Perl -- Perl 4 was a great improvement over
> awk, but I only maintain old code in it. I don't like to write new Perl
> code, and I am not willing to wait for Perl 6 when there are other
> languages I like -- Erlang, Ruby, and maybe Smalltalk (assuming a decent
> Smalltalk shows up on the AMD64 in Gentoo before I die. :) Perl 5.8 is
> good enough, Ruby and R are better
Well I dunno if I followed correctly there will be nothing like Perl6
elsewhere, it might be overkill, we'll see :)
Robert
>
>


--

We're on a mission from God. ~ Elwood,
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:05
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 12:12:32PM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
> good enough, Ruby and R are better
Well . . . that's another sense in which I don't think it's necessary to
"wait for" Perl 6: keep learning other languages, and learning to be
better with the languages you already know.  Still, I'm looking forward
to it.  I think Perl 6 will be one of the coolest languages going when
it's finally release-worthy.

I know I've said so in this venue before -- I don't think of Ruby as
being "better" than Perl.  It's better at some things, and worse at
others.  As such, I still use (and quite like) both.
Ken B. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:05
(Received via mailing list)
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 03:08:41 +0900, Victor \"Zverok\" Shepelev wrote:

> male 24y
> bg: Pascal (Turbo Pascal, then Delphi), C++; Perl, D a little; Ruby now
> and forever!
> wk: hacker and writer
> location: Kharkov/Ukraine
>
> V.

male 24y
bg: GW-BASIC, QBASIC, Turbo Pascal, Hypercard, AppleScript, Userland
Frontier, C++, VB6, tcsh, bash, Java, Prolog, Ruby
wk: grad student
loc: Illinois/USA
Victor "Zverok" Shepelev (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:09
(Received via mailing list)
male 24y
bg: Pascal (Turbo Pascal, then Delphi), C++; Perl, D a little; Ruby now
and
forever!
wk: hacker and writer
location: Kharkov/Ukraine

V.
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:10
(Received via mailing list)
Morton G. wrote:
>
> I second that. Scheme over Common Lisp for sure. Also, I'd go for Eiffel
> over Ada, and I would recommend Forth -- anyone who aspires to becoming
> a broad-band programmer should be familiar with Forth.
>
> Regards, Morton
>
>
Actually, if you know both Scheme and Forth well, I wouldn't bother with
any other languages. They are the two most perfect programming languages
ever made. I'm just sorry I didn't invent either one of them. :)

They're also the most addicting programming languages. That's probably
why there are so few professional Forth programmers and almost no
professional Scheme programmers.
Robert D. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:10
(Received via mailing list)
On 7/23/07, Chad P. <removed_email_address@domain.invalid> wrote:
> > > Ada. My goal is to become a true polyglot.
> > Unless there's a financial reason, I'd skip Perl and focus on Ruby. And
> > Scheme is probably a better tutorial language than (Common) Lisp. Check
> > out "Dr. Scheme", for example.
>
> Unless you're Ed, I wouldn't skip Perl.  I actually like the the
> language.  Why limit yourself?
Another variation on the perl theme: Wait for Perl 6 though -- you
will be in good company too ;).
Robert
Chad P. (Guest)
on 2007-09-26 01:10
(Received via mailing list)
On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 05:31:44AM +0900, Robert D. wrote:
> >> > Presently learning: Perl and Ruby, with plans to learn Lisp, Lua, and
> >> > Ada. My goal is to become a true polyglot.
> >> Unless there's a financial reason, I'd skip Perl and focus on Ruby. And
> >> Scheme is probably a better tutorial language than (Common) Lisp. Check
> >> out "Dr. Scheme", for example.
> >
> >Unless you're Ed, I wouldn't skip Perl.  I actually like the the
> >language.  Why limit yourself?
> Another variation on the perl theme: Wait for Perl 6 though -- you
> will be in good company too ;).

I don't think it's necessary to wait for Perl 6 -- but I'm certainly
looking forward to it.
This topic is locked and can not be replied to.